newtekie1You made the negative claims, it is your responsibility to prove them. It isn't a persons responsibility to prove they didn't commit murder, just because someone else says they did. The person making the accusations bears the burden of proof.

mdm-adphProve that it's not.

It's a mechanism by which Nvidia could reap higher profits at absolutely zero risk, even if they're found out. Therefore, in the business world, trust me -- it's being done.

If it is happening ATI have surely gone beyond. If not they still made the 58xx range real interesting.

IMO i'm not sure but it would not surprise me one bit if it was happening.

What counts at this time AMD \ATI seem like they just made another great step in the right direction if game are or not optimized for their cards.

we already know of games that are going to come out with DX11
so...

This is good! If the 5870 realy does perform that well then I will be getting rid of my 4890's for one. I am not suprised at them bench results given the sheer size of the PCB and Chip. Crikey something that big has to mean buisness.

HellasVagabondIn the past couple of months i have seen 5 games getting released that support Ageia ( Including Batman Arkham Asylum ) so on what do you base your assumption ? Ageia does NOT improve graphics, it makes them more Realistic so a flag is not exactly what i would call special in terms of rendering.

Hi.

About this ageia tech.
Perform a blind test and see if users can tell their gameplay experience was better on an ati system or nvidia system(same fps numbers is required for this test)
Unless you say they should notice it, they rarely WILL.
This is fact, and i dont say, you see diffrence in some games, but rather that in most cases.
you wont.
Eyefinity might be just as much of a argument as ageia.
Never the less, there is a replacement for ageia, not for eyefinity(matrox which means extra cost !), physx is dead soon.

Cuda is not.
Yet.
Same applies for stream, nothing is going to be mainstream before BOTH have it, and i dont se any reason for anyone to really concider buying a nvidia card for something that is nvidia only and have to developed by game developers to support that technology.

Who would buy a damn car if only 10 roads were supported by the damn car.

LOL! Such a lively discussion on the matter. I read as much as I can but the discussion seems to go in a loop.

Scrizzwe already know of games that are going to come out with DX11
so...

We already knew of games that were coming out with DX10 when the 8800GTX was released. And just like then, these games will be DX9 games with DX10 and now DX11 features added on, and the DX10/11 features will add next to nothing to the gameplay.

ImsochoboWho would buy a damn car if only 10 roads were supported by the damn car.

that would depend on:

#1. what the car is
#2. how fast the car goes
#3. if its a kit car (or not)
#4. is fuel also infinite?
#5. if there are any speed limits on these 10 roads you speak of

FreedomEclipsethat would depend on:

#1. what the car is
#2. how fast the car is
#3. if its a kit car (or not)
#4. is fuel also infinite?
#5. if there are any speed limits on these 10 roads you speak of

If it performed like any other car.

Or a diffrent scenario.
a car that could drive on those 10 roads and drive on the other roads, but had like 5 mph/10km/h faster speed limit, just incremental improvements.

FreedomEclipsethat would depend on:

#1. what the car is
#2. how fast the car goes
#3. if its a kit car (or not)
#4. is fuel also infinite?
#5. if there are any speed limits on these 10 roads you speak of

lol I still think it looks like a wicked card and its BIG :roll:

ImsochoboIf it performed like any other car.

Or a diffrent scenario.
a car that could drive on those 10 roads and drive on the other roads, but had like 5 mph/10km/h faster speed limit, just incremental improvements.

if its a car that only goes 5mph, forget it. I can sprint for 30mins & get where i need to go a lot quicker

ATI seems to finally have pulled it off, but unless prices come down I don't plan upgrades for the next 12 months- a pair of GTX260 cost me $300 after rebates and I sincerely doubt any ATI 58xx will bring over 18000 PPD in Folding@Home.

FreedomEclipseif its a car that only goes 5mph, forget it. I can sprint for 30mins & get where i need to go a lot quicker

sprint for 30 minutes! wow, you should try out for the olympics ;)
thats about 5-7 miles in that 30 minutes.

but back on topic, im very excited about the nest gen cards from both ATI and nVidia.
a single gpu card that competes against the 295 sounds smexy!, and i know (its my opinion) nvidia's flagship single gpu card will be either as good or even better than the 5870.

Wow, Thats Awsum and Im sure ATI will Have a little somthing up there sleave eg(5870x2 of 5890) for when Nvidia releases there next GPU lol

tastegwsprint for 30 minutes! wow, you should try out for the olympics ;)
thats about 5-7 miles in that 30 minutes.

but back on topic, im very excited about the nest gen cards from both ATI and nVidia.
a single gpu card that competes against the 295 sounds smexy!, and i know (its my opinion) nvidia's flagship single gpu card will be either as good or even better than the 5870.

Has it come to any ones mind that maybe ati already have another 4890...(5890) in mind just in case nvidia comes out with something decent.

on a side note i know every company is here to make money...but i would like to think that ati might be charging the prices speculated because the product is worth just that...given that the prices will drop when nvidia comes out with gt300

And don't forget they have HDx900 cards they could introduce ( obviously they've not done that before but just throwing some shapes :P )

newtekie1We already knew of games that were coming out with DX10 when the 8800GTX was released. And just like then, these games will be DX9 games with DX10 and now DX11 features added on, and the DX10/11 features will add next to nothing to the gameplay.

if DX11 gives more fps I'm all for it

Hemlock will take care of GT300. Assuming Cypress is 1.6x as fast as GT200, GT300 will still have to be 3x as fast as its predecessor to stand a chance against Hemlock. A 3x performance jump from its previous generation to me sounds unreal. Would be awesome if they pull it off.

apples to apples? Performance is relative, if it performs 15% better on 9/10.1/11, it is likely to do the same on 11. This has been proven time and time again.

Yes apples to apples. The last round of reviews was a pain in the ass. Between green and red throwing accusations about this on or off, this or that that version, and then throw in you used this game not that one, it was a nightmare.

When Green releases their card at least we can have the same version DX. Sites can then balance out the games that favor each card. Drivers are the problem of the company's that make the card.

The problems of what systems are used to test the cards will still be open to debate, but at least we won't be using 3 v of DX.

I dont beleive those OpenGL numbers AT ALL!!

btarunrHemlock will take care of GT300. Assuming Cypress is 1.6x as fast as GT200, GT300 will still have to be 3x as fast as its predecessor to stand a chance against Hemlock. A 3x performance jump from its previous generation to me sounds unreal. Would be awesome if they pull it off.

They'd be breaking moores law D:

It be super impressive.

Remember folks, there is a diminishing return on the additional performance with current gen games. We are beyond the era were we actually need better cards because current gen cards don't offer enough performance for todays games. Like I said before, the max fps is a no brainer. It's the mins that's going to tell the real story here. With what looks like a good start for DX11 games it's apparent that we should see them more prevalent then DX10 games IMO. That's were the true benchmark results will tell us what these cards are worth.

btarunrHemlock will take care of GT300. Assuming Cypress is 1.6x as fast as GT200, GT300 will still have to be 3x as fast as its predecessor to stand a chance against Hemlock. A 3x performance jump from its previous generation to me sounds unreal. Would be awesome if they pull it off.

I don't know what to think about that. Rumors say GT300 will be 500 mm2 or bigger so that's far more than double compared to what a GT200 would be at 40nm. Also RV870 is 330 mm2 and has 2.1 billion transistors. By simple math GT300 would have around 3.2 billion transistors, more than double that of GT200. Also Ati doubled up everything, Nvidia doesn't need to do that, in theory. 32 ROPs is more than enough, Nvidia already had them. Already had 512 bit memory bus too, and if you look at the die shots of GT200, half the chip was dedicated to ROP/memory so, they could have 3x the shader/texturing power into a chip that is twice the size and even more. What they do in the end, that's another story.

IMO Nvidia has all the ability to win this round hands down, even when RV870 is so impressive. Ati had all the advantages with RV770 (55nm, GDDR5) and Nvidia all the disadvantages (like trying to push GPGPU by using 10% of the die area exclusively for that purpose). Even then Nvidia managed the situation very well. This time around both have the same weapons and Nvidia still has MIMD, which I don't know if it's going to be a blessing or a burden (for gaming, for GPGPU will undoubtely own). But the thing is that Nvidia has a lot of posibilities this time around.

Also I think that a dual Nvidia card was already planned from the beginning. If GTX295 could be done they will be able to make a GTX395. It's more a matter of "do we need it?".

Everything said at this point about Cypress is 99.9% exaggerated at this point to me. The day that real performance numbers come up on the 23rd will be the day I open my eyes and believe what I actually see. Until then, I guess these figures will give us a slight clue as to how it will compete with current cards on the market.

I would say these benchmarks are real and im supprised that benchmarks wern't leeked a couple of days ago,

but then again i was supprised that CAT 9.9 wasnt leaked this month eather.

well, it seems from all leaked reviews (and all of them are pretty close), that the HD5XXX will be an outstanding card.... I really don't care about which Nvidia or ATI, will have the fastest card, all I care is that these cards will make prices drop a lot and more when GT300 comes....
By then everybody will be happy with new gen cards, that consume low power and can handle even 2500x1600 8xAA 16xAF very well, for around $200-$250 (just like when 3870 and 4870 had their first price drops).
In the end.... Nvidia or ATI, doesn't matter, because we are the truly winners.... :laugh: :toast: