Thursday, July 26th 2012

Windows 8 a Catastrophe, Want Linux to Thrive: Gabe Newell

Gabe Newell is part of the crowd that's not impressed with Microsoft Windows 8, or the direction in which it's going to take PC gaming. Newell's concerns, expressed in an interview to VentureBeat, go beyond the God-awful UI, and predict that Windows 8 could reshape the computing industry in a way that's bad for high-performance desktops, at least those sold by major OEMs, which could affect game developers and distributors such as Valve, which took roots in the PC platform.

"I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we’re going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They’ll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that’s true, it’s going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality," said Newell.

The alternatives he is referring to are the other platforms Valve is setting up its Steam content distribution platform. The company already has Steam client for Apple OS X, with quite a few of its games ported to, and enabled to existing buyers using SteamPlay. The company also recently announced that its client for desktop Linux (Ubuntu, to be precise), is up and running, and that it sees a future for PC gaming on Linux.

Moving the PC gaming to Linux is not a herculean task, and is just going to need a few few big companies to take initiatives. One of them is Valve, the others include companies governing Linux distributions, hardware vendors getting their act together and releasing fully-functional drivers, and lastly, for game developers to see the potential in all of it. The move to Linux doesn't change the machine, it only changes the software.

"One, we’re trying to make sure that Linux thrives. Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people — in their thinking about platforms — don’t realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage. So we’re going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who’s engaged with us — putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It’s a hedging strategy," said Newell.Source: VentureBeat
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110 Comments on Windows 8 a Catastrophe, Want Linux to Thrive: Gabe Newell

#1
W1zzard
PS3 uses libGCM, which is what most games use. PS3 OpenGL is basically an emulation layer on top of libGCM, and developers don't like that.

I wonder how many of the "i would totally use linux for gaming" people have ever used linux. the gaming quality driver support is really bad.

Do you think AMD or NVIDIA will allocate resources for improving Linux drivers if they can't even update their WHQL Windows drivers for months, which is their core business.
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#2
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
I think only cheap, simple utilities will find themselves deployed on the Windows Store. Major applications are going to stay on native Windows. The reason being, Windows Store and Metro are, if I understand this correctly, strictly Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) based which runs off of DirectDraw. That offers a lot of hardware capability not seen in a lot of desktop applications but at the same time, severe limitations (namely 3D). The games that are practical in Windows Store are the likes of those found on tablets and phones (e.g Angry Birds), not full screen games like Skyrim, Metro 2033, and the lot.

Let's put it in perspective: bringing the Windows Store to desktops allows you access to most of the programs and features available on Windows Phone 7 while maintaining the capability to act like a desktop is expected to (Windows 7). Yes, there's a learning curve but you're literally getting the best of both worlds.

Add to the fact that Metro lives on the .NET codebase allows Microsoft great flexibility in moving applications forward. Old applications could easily be made to work with hardware that hasn't even been dreamt up yet.


So...I think people (Gabe included) need to take a "chill pill," let Windows come out in October, use it for a few weeks, then make up your mind. This gush of prejudice happens with every Windows pre-release because Microsoft does pre-releases so developers can get their programs ready for it.

I think Microsoft could eliminate all this bad publicity if they required people to prove they need a pre-release version instead of making it available free to everyone.
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#3
Fragman
by: W1zzard
PS3 uses libGCM, which is what most games use. PS3 OpenGL is basically an emulation layer on top of libGCM, and developers don't like that.

I wonder how many of the "i would totally use linux for gaming" people have ever used linux. the gaming quality driver support is really bad.

Do you think AMD or NVIDIA will allocate resources for improving Linux drivers if they can't even update their WHQL Windows drivers for months, which is their core business.
Amd is starting to release linux drivers everytime they release windows drivers so there chance that they a getting betteræ.
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#4
hellrazor
I think nVidia was releasing linux drivers at the same time as windows driver the last I checked. I could be wrong however.
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#5
Prima.Vera
Latest OpenGL version is at least the same feature rich as DX11, so is all in the game producers hands now...(or pockets??)
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#6
W1zzard
by: hellrazor
I think nVidia was releasing linux drivers at the same time as windows driver the last I checked. I could be wrong however.
Linux x64 (AMD64/EM64T) Display Driver Version 295.59
Release Date Mon Jun 11, 2012
Operating System Linux 64-bit
Language English (US)

it does support GTX 600 though, my guess is without boost clocks
Installation instructions: Once you have downloaded the driver, change to the directory containing the driver package and install the driver by running, as root, sh ./NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-295.59.run
how many of our users will be able to do that after they migrated to linux to play steam games?
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#7
Bundy
by: W1zzard
how many of our users will be able to do that after they migrated to linux to play steam games?
C'mon Wiz, I agree you are close to the truth, but also a bit hard. If Gabe wants to port to Linux, he is also going to pay for peops to lubricate the gears. Maybe you might get some?

For me, I'm totally bored with Windows and would love to run a linux gaming rig. More control, more hassles, more reasons to frequent tech forums - all the reasons I am a tech head. Bring it on Steam, bring it on.
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#8
hardcore_gamer
Gabe Newell's words from PC gamer:

“Valve wouldn’t exist today without the PC,” he insisted, “or Epic, or Zynga, or Google. They all wouldn’t have existed without the openness of the platform. There’s a strong temptation to close the platform, because they look at what they can accomplish when they limit the competitors’ access to the platform, and they say, ‘That’s really exciting.’

“We are looking at the platform and saying, ‘We’ve been a free rider, and we’ve been able to benefit from everything that went into PCs and the Internet, and we have to continue to figure out how there will be open platforms.”
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#9
Quantos
I can't really be sure how I feel about W8 before I actually use it, but my experience on the preview version wasn't very good. Metro simply doesn't look like it's mouse and keyboard friendly. Now, on a tablet or phone, it looks like it has a lot of potential. My greatest fear for W8 is that it will completely alienate business users. Some people I work with already have enough trouble using Windows XP, which is a UI that is quite user friendly, and which most people that use PCs have known for a while now.

Now, perhaps some changes have been made since I tried the preview versions. That remains to be seen. Also, the OS itself underneath the UI seems very good. It's basically an optimized version of W7, which is already very good.

What is means for gaming, though, I'm not sure. What I think Mr. Newell overlooks is that W8 might not be very important at all for Microsoft. W7 works very well right now, and there's really nothing that would force people to upgrade to W8. Microsoft might be actually using W8 as an experiment with a new UI, knowing very well that W7 is the fallback people are most likely to use should they not like it, not Linux or Mac.
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#10
kid41212003
I'm pretty sure it's not the UI here.

If I remember correctly, once W8 is released, you can't install Apps that have not been certified and bought/downloaded through the apps store.

To be able to be certified by MS, you will have to pay some kind of fees (pretty much like the App stores on smart phones/MAC).

You will have to "go around" to install un-certified apps, and that possibly will cut off a lot of customers and probably the majority of Windows users.
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#11
digibucc
by: kid41212003
If I remember correctly, once W8 is released, you can't install Apps that have not been certified and bought/downloaded through the apps store.
that can't be right. I can see them trying to push that, but there is no way it will be as locked down as you make it sound. you will be able to install executeables you downloaded from your browser, for sure.


by: kid41212003
You will have to "go around" to install un-certified apps, and that possibly will cut off a lot of customers and probably the majority of Windows users.
maybe you'll have to find a work-around, but i would bet it'll simply be a system setting akin to and "install applications from other sources" setting, if even that is required.

don't get me wrong, if it is how you say that is ridiculous. i doubt it is though. that doesn't mean i doubt microsoft's intent, just their courage.
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#12
kid41212003
by: digibucc
that can't be right. I can see them trying to push that, but there is no way it will be as locked down as you make it sound. you will be able to install executeables you downloaded from your browser, for sure.

maybe you'll have to find a work-around, but i would bet it'll simply be a system setting akin to and "install applications from other sources" setting, if even that is required.

don't get me wrong, if it is how you say that is ridiculous. i doubt it is though. that doesn't mean i doubt microsoft's intent, just their courage.
Yeah, i'm just trying to make it sounds like a catastrophe. :laugh:
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#13
MarcusTaz
by: 1Kurgan1
My biggest problem is the UI, I simply won't switch. I already have an Android tablet, I don't need a UI like that for my PC.
precisely!!!
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#14
MarcusTaz
by: alucasa
Simple rule of MS.

Good OS -> Bad OS -> Good OS -> Bad OS -> Good OS and so on.

Windows 7 was good, so historically speaking, Windows 8 is bound to be a big poo.

:)
hahahaha so true. Win 8 = Vista :roll:
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#15
Drone
No. And I don't give a shit about what he/she says.
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#17
james888
by: digibucc
he/she? seriously?
Although I was a little surprised myself for this mistake, but apparently Gabe could be short for a girls name too. I google searched and came up with the Olympian Gabrielle Douglas
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#18
Crap Daddy
Well, Bill Gates is not worried. I just saw him live in London supporting the US swim team.

The Chinese won...
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#19
Morgoth
next time overclock those swimmers higher they are allready being watercooled
dutch out performed the amerikans
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#20
Drone
by: digibucc
he/she? seriously?
Yes absolutely seriously, why not? Never heard of them before. He's no Linus Torvalds, Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Lol if Linus or Bill said that Windows 8 sucks then yes I'd have listened but not now.

And after some search I found, it's the same fat guy who in 2009 said that PS3 sucks.

http://www.1up.com/news/gabe-newell-ps3-total-disaster

I think that says a lot ... :rolleyes:
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#21
Raw
So...he was right way back in 2009 too?

by: Drone
Yes absolutely seriously, why not? Never heard of them before. He's no Linus Torvalds, Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Lol if Linus or Bill said that Windows 8 sucks then yes I'd have listened but not now.

And after some search I found, it's the same fat guy who in 2009 said that PS3 sucks.

http://www.1up.com/news/gabe-newell-ps3-total-disaster

I think that says a lot ... :rolleyes:
So...he was right way back in 2009 too? He's batting a 1000. And what does being fat have to do with being smart?
:nutkick:
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#22
digibucc
by: Drone
it's the same fat guy who in 2009 said that PS3 sucks.

I think that says a lot ... :rolleyes:
PS3 WAS a total disaster in 2009. even now it hasn't fully recovered. they had to take a loss on consoles sales just to gain enough market share to sell some games. he was absolutely right in 2009, and his concerns are absolutely valid now.

we KNOW microsoft wants to close the platform
we KNOW that is bad for developers overall

where is the confusion? the exact level to which windows 8 will be locked down is unknown to us, i doubt it will be fully locked down but if it's enough to force even 10-20% of customers to microsft store, that is HUGE. maybe gabe knows more.
Posted on Reply
#23
Drone
by: digibucc
we KNOW microsoft wants to close the platform
we KNOW that is bad for developers overall

the exact level to which windows 8 will be locked down is unknown to us, i doubt it will be fully locked down but if it's enough to force even 10-20% of customers to microsft store, that is HUGE.
They don't close the platform. They just use the "unification" strategy. It's no longer news to anyone. They have Windows phone, Xbox and now they have Surface. It's understandable. Apple does it with their iOS, Google does it with their Android. And Windows was never that open in the first place. And what's so catastrophic about this? Applications that worked under 7 will most likely work under 8 and devs can always write their code for windows 8.

IF windows 8 gets totally locked down only then it'll be a catastrophe. And tbh it'll be a bigger catostrophe to Microsoft itself than its customers. People will switch to macs and nixes. And frankly Linux should have been much more popular than it is now, it's an awesome OS. Because of consumers' stupidity and vendors'/devs' greed Linux never got attention it really deserved.
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#24
Aceman.au
Return the UI to old Start button style and bring in the performance numbers and then I'll consider even lookin @ W8
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#25
T4C Fantasy
CPU & GPU DB Maintainer
by: digibucc
PS3 WAS a total disaster in 2009. even now it hasn't fully recovered. they had to take a loss on consoles sales just to gain enough market share to sell some games. he was absolutely right in 2009, and his concerns are absolutely valid now.

we KNOW microsoft wants to close the platform
we KNOW that is bad for developers overall

where is the confusion? the exact level to which windows 8 will be locked down is unknown to us, i doubt it will be fully locked down but if it's enough to force even 10-20% of customers to microsft store, that is HUGE. maybe gabe knows more.
the ps3 was never a total disaster, the ps3 has been keeping up with 360 sales since it came out, slightly more slighty less some years, gabe was wrong, he may not be wrong now but he was back in 2009, hes not an important enough figure to be listening to end of story. its all publicity

for the non gaming community windows 8 will be great
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