Wednesday, March 5th 2014

Microsoft to Talk DirectX 12 at GDC

Microsoft will present its first paper on DirectX 12, its next-generation multimedia API, at the Game Developers Conference (GDC), on the 20th of March, 2013. The event could include presentations by NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm. It's not clear at this point if Microsoft will release developer tools and resources on that day, or simply outline the API to spur interest. If anything, it should gently nudge today's GPU manufacturers to make their future GPU designs ready for the API. There are currently no GPU families that we know of, which support DirectX 12. AMD's current Graphics CoreNext 2.0 GPUs, such as the Radeon R9 290X, support DirectX 11.2, while NVIDIA's "Maxwell" GPUs, such as the GeForce GTX 750 Ti, feature an identical API feature-level support to their "Kepler" predecessors.

Source: MSDN
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63 Comments on Microsoft to Talk DirectX 12 at GDC

#1
HumanSmoke
by: Serpent of Darkness
pushing D3D12.0 now, or in a few years, won't force developers to suddenly shell out extra captia to upgrade tools to produce D3D12.0 Titles.
Nothing forces developers to move to a new feature set that isn't paid for by TWIMTBP or Gaming Evolved, so it falls back onto the IHV's...as usual.
by: Serpent of Darkness
just looking at it in a situation where the US is the only ones developing future games that uses the new API
US companies dominate? Are you sure it's only gaming? BTW: Might have escaped your notice that one of AMD's next Mantle titles, Sniper Elite 3, is made by Rebellion...a UK company.
by: Serpent of Darkness
In addition, they've been pushing DP and mini-DP usage besides the HDMI and DVI outlets. All your old 600 series NVidia cards weren't using DP
WTF #1....Really? I'm going to assume you're just trolling.
by: Serpent of Darkness
NVidia is now using Directcompute in it's 700 series Cards. A feature that's been known in the AMD cards for the past few generations.
WTF #2 DirectCompute was available with the release of DX11 in 2009 and is accessible to virtually any DX10 capable GPU. [Example #1] [Example #2 - Early implementation of DC. Metro 2033's DoF setting uses DirectCompute calc]
Posted on Reply
#2
TheHunter
by: Hilux SSRG
Will 20nm Nvidia's Maxwells support Dx12 or are there already locked down and in the pipeline for release using 11.2?
No, only up to dx11.2.
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/33638-maxwell-is-not-directx-12-next-compatible


Guess it will be with Volta, 2 years time.. So then again this Directx hype means sheit. -_-

They just wanted to let us know, look we do care we will make a new api, bla bla. Until then we will feed you with crap to make some more money, just because we can. xD



EDIT or maybe not:

they will release the api on 21st March, so that just in time ~ windows 8.1 update1
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/34137-directx-12-to-be-introduced-march-20th
Posted on Reply
#3
Hilux SSRG
by: TheHunter
No, only up to dx11.2.
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/33638-maxwell-is-not-directx-12-next-compatible


Guess it will be with Volta, 2 years time.. So then again this Directx hype means sheit. -_-

They just wanted to let us know, look we do care we will make a new api, bla bla. Until then we will feed you with crap to make some more money, just because we can. xD



EDIT or maybe not:

they will release the api on 21st March, so that just in time ~ windows 8.1 update1
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/34137-directx-12-to-be-introduced-march-20th
I guess it doesn't matter if it takes 2+ years for developers to utilize newest drivers, if at all. Wish there was a way to cut out support for below Dx 9 but probably not feasible.
Posted on Reply
#4
theoneandonlymrk
For me the next and possibly most important question is which vendor is going to have initial support with dx12 its been Amd the last few years and it could be argued they are clearly already close in conceptual support of it in part due to mantel.

But so does intel (they have an interesting gpu these days to say the least) and to a lesser degree nvidia.

Could get interesting. .
Posted on Reply
#5
HumanSmoke
by: theoneandonlymrk
For me the next and possibly most important question is which vendor is going to have initial support with dx12.
Likewise, except that "which vendor is going to have initial support for DX12" is about 45th on my list.
My list looks more like:
1. What feature sets will be included ?
2. If DX12 features mimic to some extent MS's Xbone DirectX 11.x pared down "close to metal" approach, will these features be ported into the existing DX11 (PC)? Unified/backportable WDDM, or clean sheet design requiring a fundamental OS revision?
3. Will Microsoft still hobble DirectX as to make consoles more palatable ?
4. Given the development lead-in time for the Xbone, how many of these "close to metal"/optimized draw call features already implemented in Xbone's DX11.x have been sitting ready to go for months or years?
5. How stupid does the AMD talking head feel ?
...
45. Q: Which vendor is going to have initial support for DX12....A: Whichever vendor 1. See's the benefit of it's inclusion, 2. Has its architectural cadence in lockstep with D3D release schedule.
Posted on Reply
#6
Xzibit
by: HumanSmoke

5. How stupid does the AMD talking head feel ?
I don't think he'll feel stupid for making a statement at the time that was true.
Taylor: As far as we know there are no plans for DirectX 12. If this is not correct and someone wants to correct me - wonderful
It goes to show that Microsoft DX 12 is a reaction to something and collaboration was started after that interview of April 2013, 11 months ago. That's enough time for Microsoft or any company to rethink its position on anything.

Microsoft hadn't purchase Nokia yet
Microsoft hadn't launched X-Bone and beaten by PS4
Steam OS launch
ARM moving more towards 64bit
Android being a mobile gaming platform
Etc...
Posted on Reply
#7
HumanSmoke
by: Xzibit
It goes to show that Microsoft DX 12 is a reaction to something and collaboration was started after that interview of April 2013, 11 months ago. That's enough time for Microsoft or any company to rethink its position on anything.
You're assuming that everyone at AMD is reading from the same page. If anything, the opposite has been true on many occasions. You also might want to remember that at the time, many people pointed out that the marketing arm (Taylor) doesn't necessarily represent the company view. Plenty of people were scratching their heads when he came out with the pronouncement.

Remember John Fruehe's guerrilla marketing of Bulldozers supposed ability even after AMD had working silicon ? Either he didn't know his own companies products - a product he was directly responsible for marketing, or AMD's hierarchy deliberately misled him to garner further hype. Neither is a particularly palatable option.
Remember when Richard Huddy of AMD talked up the death of DirectX, while Neal Robeson (also) of AMD talked up DirectX two days later?
Posted on Reply
#8
Xzibit
by: HumanSmoke
You're assuming that everyone at AMD is reading from the same page. If anything, the opposite has been true on many occasions. You also might want to remember that at the time, many people pointed out that the marketing arm (Taylor) doesn't necessarily represent the company view. Plenty of people were scratching their heads when he came out with the pronouncement.
My assumptions come from common sense rather then speculation and ill will towards a company.
Back in January Microsoft sent a letter to its MVPs saying
"DirectX is no longer evolving as a technology. Given the status within each technology, further value and engagement cannot be offered to the MVP community."

This was later clarified in a second email to mean that XNA was being discontinued but DirectX was an on going concern:
“DirectX is no longer evolving as a technology.” That is definitely not true in any way, shape or form. Microsoft is actively investing in DirectX as the unified graphics foundation for our key platforms, including Xbox 360, Windows Phone and Windows. DirectX is evolving and will continue to evolve. For instance, right now we’re investing in some very cool graphics code authorizing [sic] technology in Visual Studio. We have absolutely no intention of stopping innovation with DirectX

As always, some clarity would be welcome, but Microsoft isn't good at clarity when it comes to changes to frameworks that developers might not like.
MS XBOne was set in stone and AMD would have been the first to know if MS was looking to improve DirectX and would want to know if AMD SoC would be able to deliver those features in its current state. The interview and write up you reference all allude to BF4 release and Windows 8.1 update which to this date we haven't seen a DX12 have we ? NO!

MS making a play for the mobile market because it sees Android as a viable rival in the mobile space and wants in. It purchase Nokia and is including Qualcomm in DX development which has its chips in a large % of mobile phones. All the 2011 reference of "disarray" you reference all allude to OpenGL or alternative / benefits of a improved easy to work with API in a mobile platform.

None of those piece started to fall in place from MS perspective until Q4 2013. So if you think interviews in 2011 reflects that be my guess.
Posted on Reply
#9
HumanSmoke
by: Xzibit
MS XBOne was set in stone and AMD would have been the first to know if MS was looking to improve DirectX and would want to know if AMD SoC would be able to deliver those features in its current state.
Not necessarily. The AMD APU is based upon already existent hardware that is DX11.2 capable...which is the basis of the API used in the Xbone. It does not follow that the Xbone would be DX12 compliant, and if it is not then AMD need not be involved in consultation. The hardware for Xbone is done, MS aren't going to retool the Xbone for DX12.
by: Xzibit
The interview and write up you reference all allude to BF4 release and Windows 8.1 update which to this date we haven't seen a DX12 have we ? NO!
The fact of the matter is Taylor said there would be no DX12. While there isn't a DX12 at the moment, it certainly doesn't look as though it will never eventuate. Marketing is definitely not the pulpit that lends itself to expounding prediction of absolutes.
by: Xzibit
All the 2011 reference of "disarray" you reference all allude to OpenGL or alternative / benefits of a improved easy to work with API in a mobile platform.
You missed the point entirely. The Neal Robeson/Richard Huddy interviews were put forward to demonstrate that even between marketing arms of the same company (let alone product development and marketing) not everyone is reading from the same page. If that wasn't clear enough I could provide you with a stack of other examples. The fact that neither Richard Huddy, Neal Robeson, or John Fruehe continued to work for AMD for any appreciable time after the examples cited aired should give some indication of just how well they had their finger on the pulse of events.
Posted on Reply
#10
Xzibit
by: HumanSmoke
Not necessarily. The AMD APU is based upon already existent hardware that is DX11.2 capable...which is the basis of the API used in the Xbone. It does not follow that the Xbone would be DX12 compliant, and if it is not then AMD need not be involved in consultation. The hardware for Xbone is done, MS aren't going to retool the Xbone for DX12.
Correct if Microsoft was looking at DX improvements back then it would have looked to AMD to implement such DX improvements way back then. The fact that it didn't speaks to its recent development.

by: HumanSmoke

The fact of the matter is Taylor said there would be no DX12. While there isn't a DX12 at the moment, it certainly doesn't look as though it will never eventuate. Marketing is definitely not the pulpit that lends itself to expounding prediction of absolutes.
The only absolute came from your assumption. Its clear from the translation that there were no plans for DX improvement at the time to his knowledge.

by: HumanSmoke

You missed the point entirely. The Neal Robeson/Richard Huddy interviews were put forward to demonstrate that even between marketing arms of the same company (let alone product development and marketing) not everyone is reading from the same page. If that wasn't clear enough I could provide you with a stack of other examples. The fact that neither Richard Huddy, Neal Robeson, or John Fruehe continued to work for AMD for any appreciable time after the examples cited aired should give some indication of just how well they had their finger on the pulse of events.
Richard Huddy has worked for Nvidia, AMD and Intel 2011
John Fruehe was let go in 2012
Neal Robinson is still working at AMD

What does marketing have to do with hardware compliance anyhow ? You grasping at straws ?
Posted on Reply
#11
HumanSmoke
by: Xzibit
Correct if Microsoft was looking at DX improvements back then it would have looked to AMD to implement such DX improvements way back then. The fact that it didn't speaks to its recent development.
So, you are of the opinion that the DX12 specification was written sometime after Roy Taylor's pronouncement and March 2014 ? Assuming MS didn't start work immediately just to spite Mr Taylor, you're looking at around nine months to get the specification presented including (I presume) a new shader model. Pretty speedy compared to the two years for DX10 and the twelve months for DX11.

The odd thing is that Roy Taylor basically retreated from his own assertion when Microsoft weighed in on the matter, which basically says Roy wasn't in possession of all the facts....quelle surprise! The fact that none of AMD's senior management backed Roy's stance might be an indication that he was shooting from the lip - not an unknown occurrence (see below).
by: Xzibit
Neal Robinson is still working at AMD
My apologies to Neal Robison.

All in all, quite a bite from you for what was a tongue-in-cheek jibe at Mr. Taylor ( a sterling example for why some people need emoticons to communicate) and which constituted ~16% of a post. He will always be remembered by me as the man who declared:
"The UK is the only place in the world where anyone talks about AMD or ATI". To prove his point, Taylor went as far as showing us a graph representing the entire market for GPUs last year, both discreet and integrated. Astonishingly, ATI did not feature at all.
Where was ATI among the 366 million graphics chips which had apparently been split exclusively between Nvidia and Intel in 2007? "No one cares," Taylor says.
That's my Roy!
Posted on Reply
#12
Xzibit
by: HumanSmoke
So, you are of the opinion that the DX12 specification was written sometime after Roy Taylor's pronouncement and March 2014 ? Assuming MS didn't start work immediately just to spite Mr Taylor, you're looking at around nine months to get the specification presented including (I presume) a new shader model. Pretty speedy compared to the two years for DX10 and the twelve months for DX11
I'm in the opinion of waiting for what MS has to say on the 20th

by: PCWORLD

In all seriousness, details are short at the moment. Since DirectX 11.1 came with Windows 8 and DirectX 11.2 requires Windows 8.1, it wouldn't be surprising to see DirectX 12 tied to the next big Windows release. Could the big Windows "Threshold" update rumored for spring 2015 be DirectX 12's launch party? The changes in that build are reportedly massive enough to possibly warrant a full-blown "Windows 9" name rather than Windows 8.2, which would make the introduction to a whole new generation of DirectX similarly appropriate.
Posted on Reply
#13
NC37
More interested to see how M$ answers Mantle or if they do. If AMD is showing that their optimized drivers can consistently beat M$ then it is just a matter of time before they feel the pressure. DX has been the one horse train for years now. Sure there is OpenGL but lets face it, it has never really done anything exceptional to compete against DX.

Honestly I'd rather see a return to the golden age where GPU makers made their own blasted drivers and there was actual legitimate reasons, other than performance, to go for one or the other.
Posted on Reply
#14
Xzibit
After Microsoft presentation

DirectX: Direct3D Futures (Presented by Microsoft)
Max McMullen | Development Lead, Windows Graphics
Location: Room 2002, West Hall
Date: Thursday, March 20
Time: 4:00pm-5:00pm
"Come learn how future changes to Direct3D will enable next generation games to run faster than ever before! In this session we will discuss future improvements in Direct3D that will allow developers an unprecedented level of hardware control and reduced CPU rendering overhead across a broad ecosystem of hardware. If you use cutting-edge 3D graphics in your games, middleware, or engines and want to efficiently build rich and immersive visuals, you don't want to miss this talk."

AMD will be giving there own on APIs

Direct3D and the Future of Graphics APIs (Presented by AMD)
Johan Andersson | Technical Director, Frostbite
Dan Baker | Partner, Oxide Games
Dave Oldcorn | Software Engineering Fellow, AMD
Location: Room 3020, West Hall
Date: Thursday, March 20
Time: 5:30pm-6:30pm
"In this session AMDs Dave Oldcorn, Frostbite technical Director Johan Andersson and Oxides Dan Baker will look at how new Direct3D advancements enhance efficiency and enable fully-threaded building of command buffers. They will demonstrate how AMD is using its recent experience in efficient graphics API design and its partnership with Microsoft to provide developers with the infrastructure to render next-generation graphics workloads at full performance. This presentation also discusses the best ways to exploit AMD hardware under heavy load and will invite developers to influence driver and hardware development."
Posted on Reply
#15
fullinfusion
1.21 Gigawatts
Fu%k MS and there shitty DX12 when Mantle is in the mix now!

Given enough time Mantle is going to bring it to the table unlike the DX shit MS push on us to make us buy hardware that really don't do us any good.

Bill Gates your a homo and stop the BS unless you can actually bring it cool?

-that's all-
Posted on Reply
#16
Recus
Meanwhile in Mantle headquarters.

Posted on Reply
#17
fullinfusion
1.21 Gigawatts
by: Recus
Meanwhile in Mantle headquarters.


From a green team member Id cry too lol not having support! lmao
Posted on Reply
#18
rvalencia
by: btarunr
Microsoft will present its first paper on DirectX 12, its next-generation multimedia API, at the Game Developers Conference (GDC), on the 20th of March, 2013. The event could include presentations by NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm. It's not clear at this point if Microsoft will release developer tools and resources on that day, or simply outline the API to spur interest. If anything, it should gently nudge today's GPU manufacturers to make their future GPU designs ready for the API. There are currently no GPU families that we know of, which support DirectX 12. AMD's current Graphics CoreNext 2.0 GPUs, such as the Radeon R9 290X, support DirectX 11.2, while NVIDIA's "Maxwell" GPUs, such as the GeForce GTX 750 Ti, feature an identical API feature-level support to their "Kepler" predecessors.



Source: MSDN
.
From http://www.anandtech.com/show/7818/low-level-graphics-api-developments-gdc-2014
“You asked us to do more,” the DirectX session reads. “You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console.”

Notice the word console with DirectX12 and MS's latest game console is Xbox One and it's powered by AMD GCN. The console word with MS's statement give a clue on which current GPU family supports DirectX 12.

From http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/appbuilder/archive/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d.aspx

"The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality".


An example of Xbox One's DirectX 11.X superiority over PC's DirectX 11.2
From http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-microsoft-to-unlock-more-gpu-power-for-xbox-one-developers


"In addition to asynchronous compute queues, the Xbox One hardware supports two concurrent render pipes,"

Xbox One's APIs supports AMD GCN's multiple ACE units.


From http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-opengl-directx-gdc-2014,26188.html
"AMD Supports Possible Lower Level DirectX" - tomshardware

“AMD would like you to know that it supports and celebrates a direction for game development that is aligned with AMD’s vision of lower-level, ‘closer to the metal’ graphics APIs for PC gaming,” reports an AMD rep. “While industry experts expect this to take some time, developers can immediately leverage efficient API design using Mantle, and AMD is very excited to share the future of our own API with developers at this year’s Game Developers Conference.” - AMD's response to DirectX 11.2.





Posted on Reply
#19
Recus
by: fullinfusion
From a green team member Id cry too lol not having support! lmao
What support?





by: rvalencia
From http://www.anandtech.com/show/7818/low-level-graphics-api-developments-gdc-2014
“You asked us to do more,” the DirectX session reads. “You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console.”

Notice the word console with DirectX12 and MS's latest game console is Xbox One and it's powered by AMD GCN.

From http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/appbuilder/archive/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d.aspx

"The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality".


An example of Xbox One's DirectX 11.X superiority over PC's DirectX 11.2
From http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-microsoft-to-unlock-more-gpu-power-for-xbox-one-developers


"In addition to asynchronous compute queues, the Xbox One hardware supports two concurrent render pipes,"

Xbox One's APIs supports AMD GCN's multiple ACE units.


From http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-opengl-directx-gdc-2014,26188.html
"AMD Supports Possible Lower Level DirectX" - tomshardware

“AMD would like you to know that it supports and celebrates a direction for game development that is aligned with AMD’s vision of lower-level, ‘closer to the metal’ graphics APIs for PC gaming,” reports an AMD rep. “While industry experts expect this to take some time, developers can immediately leverage efficient API design using Mantle, and AMD is very excited to share the future of our own API with developers at this year’s Game Developers Conference.” - AMD's response to DirectX 11.2
Power of AMD GCN.


Posted on Reply
#20
rvalencia
by: Recus
What support?






Power of AMD GCN.
X1's GPU hardware is in the low end side LOL.

Also read http://www.slideshare.net/zlatan4177/gpgpu-algorithms-in-games

Your benchmark doesn't cover real time GpGPU results return to the CPU latency and API improvements doesn't automatically solve GPU bound issues.

From http://m.hardocp.com/article/2014/02/03/amd_mantle_performance_preview_in_battlefield_4/3#.Uxm0ZvPNv40



"For this first graph we are looking at Siege of Shanghai 64 player session. We are comparing at a common 1080p resolution, and without AA, but maximum in-game settings."

----------
Your GIF is limited to 256 colors. LOL

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/01/tomb-raider-on-ps4-is-more-definitive-than-on-xbox-one/


Posted on Reply
#21
Xzibit
by: Recus
What support?

Power of AMD GCN.
Now I know why you use that avatar.

That's the face one makes when they try to make sense out of your post. "WTF, Did he mean to say cause I sure as hell have no clue"
Posted on Reply
#23
Xzibit
Looks like AMD will have a Mantle panel at GDC.

Mantle - Introducing a New API for Graphics (Presented by AMD)
Stephan Hodes | Developer Technology Engineer, AMD
John Larkin | Mantle Tools Developer, AMD
Guennadi Riguer | Principle Software Developer, AMD
Gordon Selley | Lead Developer GPU PerfStudio2, AMD
Location: Room 2009, West Hall
Date: Wednesday, March 19
Time: 2:00pm-3:00pm
"Last year AMD unveiled Mantle, a new graphics API designed to enable developers with lower-level and more efficient control of the graphics system. Taking advantage of the efficient nature of Mantle requires a familiarity with modern graphics hardware architecture along with a thorough understanding of the performance concepts it enables. In this Session we will explain how Mantle features enable Developers to improve both CPU and GPU performance in their titles. We will also provide best-practice API use examples and showcase common pitfalls encountered when porting an existing project to Mantle."
Posted on Reply
#24
fullinfusion
1.21 Gigawatts
Looks like amd is going to be the clear winner lol and 2-3 posts above, keep posting your pix it just makes me lol
Good night all

Till tomorrow :rockout:
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