Thursday, December 13th 2007

Opera Files Lawsuit Against Microsoft

Opera Software, best known for its free web browser, has filed an antitrust lawsuit against software giant Microsoft for abusing its dominant position by integrating its Internet Explorer web browser into Windows. Opera, which filed the lawsuit in the EU, is asking the European Commission to force Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows or include other browsers as standard. It is also claiming that Microsoft is not following accepted standards for Internet Explorer and is calling for it to adhere to them. Opera’s Deputy General Counsel, Jason Hoida, said:
Our complaint is necessary to get Microsoft to amend its practices. The European Court of First Instance confirmed in September that Microsoft has illegally tied Windows Media Player to Windows. We are simply asking the Commission to apply these same, clear principles to the Internet Explorer tie, a tie that has even more profound effects on consumers and innovation. We are confident that the Commission understands the significance of the Internet Explorer tie and will take the necessary actions to restore competition and consumer choice in the browser market.
Some people may remember that Microsoft was forced to sell a modified version of Windows XP which excluded Windows Media Player back in 2004 after complaints about that being integrated into Windows, which was a similar case to this.Source: PC World
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37 Comments on Opera Files Lawsuit Against Microsoft

#1
robodude666
Think its a valid request... Most users are forced to use Internet Explorer as they don't know of others. Maybe Opera or FireFox offers those user more than IE does? Not to mention I'm tired of using IE on my school's computer...
Posted on Reply
#2
Dangle
Microsoft should include Avant browser and Firefox to comply with Opera's lame lawsuit, then Microsoft should sue Nintendo for bundling Opera with the Wii.



by: robodude666
Most users are forced to use Internet Explorer as they don't know of others.
Seriously?... That is so stupid. Nobody is FORCED to use IE. Opera is a FREE browser. If you want it, you can get it, and nobody's stopping you. If you don't like IE on your school's PC, download a different FREE browser. This lawsuit is just sour grapes. We should next sue Volkswagen for including Infinity sound systems rather than OTHER sound systems from it's competitors. This sour grapes lawsuit is absolutely bogus. I don't use IE, but MS deserves to ship their own products with their own products.

Why doesn't someone sue Apple for including Garage Band, Safari, Quicktime, etc. with their OS? Grow up Opera.
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#3
robodude666
by: Dangle
Microsoft should include Avant browser and Firefox to comply with Opera's lame lawsuit, then Microsoft should sue Nintendo for bundling Opera with the Wii.
Thats not the same though... Thats a console... I'm sure if microsoft wrote IE to not suck as much and support the wii you could be able to download or install it onto your wii...

Oh, and it isn't bundled though... You need to download/buy the browser. Same with browser for DS. You need to buy it.
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#4
FatForester
Not including any browser would be a bad move, because then you have to download a browser without a browser. I think if they had the install process ask you which internet browser you would like to use, then that would work. Installing all three is pretty useless, but if you get to choose which one, that makes sense. And since Vista doesn't use IE for updating, it could definitely work there.
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#5
robodude666
Yup. I think that I would a best move... I just thought about how difficult it would be to download a browser without a browser =/

Although it can run into problems down the road if microsoft ONLY includes IE, FF, and Opera... The other less-popular browsers might get upset.

Vista doesn't use IE for updating, but it does use it for modifying the updates settings... If you want to update for windows + other hardware/software. There are some programs (like Trillian) who always open a IE window, no matter what. And there are websites (like microsoft's site and school sites) that only work in IE.
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#6
Dangle
Microsoft should just include IE with the OS, and allow the option to download other browsers if the user wants to.






oh wait....
they already to that.
Posted on Reply
#7
Leon2ky
I think opera needs to get it's head out of it's ass.

Why not sue Apple for 'forcing' users to use Safari?
Posted on Reply
#8
Darkrealms
Microsoft sells a product. What they choose to bundle is their decision. I'm sick and tired of products that bundle with Google toolbar or Yahoo toolbar or Netscape or . . . DVD movies shouldn't pop up with "free" trial DVD player programs . . .
Whats their point. Microsoft is not stopping Opera from running on Windows. Microsoft isn't stopping Real Player or QuickTime from running.
People have choices, if they choose not to find them then that is their fault.

Not a Microsoft/windows fan. I just use it because it is industry standard. It is what things work on.
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#9
robodude666
Well, I never said I'd support the lawsuit. I said its a valid request...

by: Dangle
Seriously?... That is so stupid. Nobody is FORCED to use IE. Opera is a FREE browser. If you want it, you can get it, and nobody's stopping you. If you don't like IE on your school's PC, download a different FREE browser. This lawsuit is just sour grapes. We should next sue Volkswagen for including Infinity sound systems rather than OTHER sound systems from it's competitors. This sour grapes lawsuit is absolutely bogus. I don't use IE, but MS deserves to ship their own products with their own products.

Why doesn't someone sue Apple for including Garage Band, Safari, Quicktime, etc. with their OS? Grow up Opera.
No, they are forced to use IE. In case you didn't know, some users don't even know about firefox or opera. Those who do and stick with IE, good for them. They looked at the options and they picked what is best for them.

I don't like IE on my school's computer, nope. Can I do anything about it? Nope. Why? Most, if not all schools have a "no download" policy... We aren't allowed to download or install any software.

The v-dub situation you mentioned is different. v-dub doesn't make the sound system... They made an agreement of some sort with infinity. Thats 100% different than this. To make your scenario similar, v-dub would have to make their own sound system. Then other companies would have to offer their own sound systems which fit into the v-dub cars. That would be the same as v-dub is forcing the people to use their sound system. If the user knows about other sound systems they can buy one and install it. But hell, why would you buy two sound systems?

Why is no one suing Apple? Well, simply... Nothing really runs on mac os...
Posted on Reply
#10
Darkrealms
by: robodude666
Well, I never said I'd support the lawsuit. I said its a valid request...



No, they are forced to use IE. In case you didn't know, some users don't even know about firefox or opera. Those who do and stick with IE, good for them. They looked at the options and they picked what is best for them.

I don't like IE on my school's computer, nope. Can I do anything about it? Nope. Why? Most, if not all schools have a "no download" policy... We aren't allowed to download or install any software.

The v-dub situation you mentioned is different. v-dub doesn't make the sound system... They made an agreement of some sort with infinity. Thats 100% different than this. To make your scenario similar, v-dub would have to make their own sound system. Then other companies would have to offer their own sound systems which fit into the v-dub cars. That would be the same as v-dub is forcing the people to use their sound system. If the user knows about other sound systems they can buy one and install it. But hell, why would you buy two sound systems?

Why is no one suing Apple? Well, simply... Nothing really runs on mac os...
The school you are talking about chose to use IE, they could have used another but it is probably easiest to update, restore, etc for them. That is not a good example. I was "forced" to used Apples when I went to school, that didn't mean I liked their web browser or used it anywhere else.
A consumer buys a product. It is their responsibility to choose what they want. A local camera shop only sells Nikons and Olympus' does that mean I don't have other choices? If people don't do their research it is their own fault.
Type web browser in the address bar. This was my first result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser. Wow, all the primary browsers are in the first couple of paragraphs. That was even searching in an IE browser @_o

You are right, thats why Opera isn't suing Apple. Because they aren't big enough for them to whine about. And somehow that makes it ok . . .
Posted on Reply
#11
Jimmy 2004
by: FatForester
Not including any browser would be a bad move, because then you have to download a browser without a browser.
I think that has to be one of the best counter arguments there is :laugh:
Posted on Reply
#12
robodude666
by: Darkrealms
The school you are talking about chose to use IE, they could have used another but it is probably easiest to update, restore, etc for them. That is not a good example. I was "forced" to used Apples when I went to school, that didn't mean I liked their web browser or used it anywhere else.
A consumer buys a product. It is their responsibility to choose what they want. A local camera shop only sells Nikons and Olympus' does that mean I don't have other choices? If people don't do their research it is their own fault.
Type web browser in the address bar. This was my first result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser. Wow, all the primary browsers are in the first couple of paragraphs. That was even searching in an IE browser @_o

You are right, thats why Opera isn't suing Apple. Because they aren't big enough for them to whine about. And somehow that makes it ok . . .
No.. schools use IE because they have a stock install from pre-built places... I'm sure some of the techs that work at schools don't even know of FireFox or Opera.

That is exactly my argument. How would they KNOW there are other web browsers out there? A lot of people use IE because its... there. They know it is a web browser. They know it works for them. But, how do they know it is the best for them? They don't, because they may not know about other browsers that exist.

Search for web browser? Good idea... Sadly, did you notice how many people sign up on forums every year and ask simple questions like "apple v orange" or "will this C2D work on my 775 motherboard?" or the other countless number of questions that can easily be answered by a search?

@_o <-- aww!!! Very cute :) I'm going to have to borrow it.
Posted on Reply
#13
Dangle
by: robodude666
Oh, and it isn't bundled though... You need to download/buy the browser. Same with browser for DS. You need to buy it.
So according to your argument, it would be ok for MS to disallow all browsers except for IE as long as you had to pay an extra fee to surf the web...

by: robodude666

No, they are forced to use IE. In case you didn't know, some users don't even know about firefox or opera.
MS is not forcing people to use IE! If you want to use Firefox or Opera, you can. Almost every operating system of the face of the earth comes with a bundled browser. You can't single out MS. This lawsuit is absolutely bogus.
I don't like IE on my school's computer, nope. Can I do anything about it? Nope. Why? Most, if not all schools have a "no download" policy... We aren't allowed to download or install any software.
You must be in elementary school then? Are you in 5th grade? Even my high school allowed us to download software and install it (let alone college).
The v-dub situation you mentioned is different. v-dub doesn't make the sound system... They made an agreement of some sort with infinity. Thats 100% different than this. To make your scenario similar, v-dub would have to make their own sound system. Then other companies would have to offer their own sound systems which fit into the v-dub cars. That would be the same as v-dub is forcing the people to use their sound system. If the user knows about other sound systems they can buy one and install it. But hell, why would you buy two sound systems?
Ok, so you agree then how ridiculous this lawsuit is.

If Volkswagen wants to make their own sound system for their own cars that they are manufacturing and selling, Sony should not be allowed to come in and bully them around and force them to sell all their models with a competitor's sound system, or no sound system at all.
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#14
Scrizz
how many different browsers are there anyways, people now a days sue just to sue
Posted on Reply
#15
robodude666
by: Dangle
You must be in elementary school then? Are you in 5th grade? Even my high school allowed us to download software and install it (let alone college).
Damn, what state/country are you in?

Actually, I go to college..

They don't allow CDs either, but we can use flash drives :)
... Don't ask me, its their policy..

My highschool didn't allow for CDs/floppy/flash drives/usb devices either... They taped the mousepad over the 5.25" area of the PC cases (Dell desktop form factor). The USB ports were covered by the dell plastic logo thing.. The computers were on full lockdown also. No right click, no task manager, no run... crazy filters for every site you go to. Sites with the word "crap" or "shit" were blocked for inappropriate language. Although I managed to get around everything still.
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#16
Kreij
Senior Monkey Moderator
There are a few errors in the arguments presented here ...

If people do not know that other browsers exist it is the fault of the company who makes the browser. It's called advertising. If they only advertise on the internet (which you need a browser to get to) then their marketing people need to be fired.

The comparison of VW making their own sound system is not valid as VW does not have a monopoly on its automobiles in the way that Windows does with their OS. In order for a company to compete they must make it to run on Windows.

If the makers of software want to compete with MS, then they need to create innovative advertising campaign that show that their product is clearly superior. If they did that, they would have people using their product becuase it was better not because they sued and made MS include it against their will.

Why can't Opera do a CD e-mail campaign like AOl did? Send out bajillions of CDs for free. People will try it. Guaranteed.
Posted on Reply
#17
mdm-adph
You know, the thing is, if Microsoft adhered to already accepted web standards when it came to IE, like not using proprietary technologies like ActiveX, not screwing up CSS with their shoddy support for it, not screwing up JavaScript with their shoddy support for it, I wouldn't mind it as much. As is, it's a pain in the ass to program for.

However, I don't think Opera has much hope to get this to work -- I've heard IE is so ingrained into Windows that even trying to remove it is like trying to remove the transmission from your car, and still expect it work right afterwards. Yes, you can blame Microsoft for making it that way, but it's a fact.
Posted on Reply
#18
effmaster
by: Darkrealms
The school you are talking about chose to use IE, they could have used another but it is probably easiest to update, restore, etc for them. That is not a good example. I was "forced" to used Apples when I went to school, that didn't mean I liked their web browser or used it anywhere else.
A consumer buys a product. It is their responsibility to choose what they want. A local camera shop only sells Nikons and Olympus' does that mean I don't have other choices? If people don't do their research it is their own fault.
Type web browser in the address bar. This was my first result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser. Wow, all the primary browsers are in the first couple of paragraphs. That was even searching in an IE browser @_o

You are right, thats why Opera isn't suing Apple. Because they aren't big enough for them to whine about. And somehow that makes it ok . . .
Quite right. the reason most schools use IE is because its what they are all familiar with and what is industry standard. Heck we can go on and on about how its unfair for people to be stuck with IE to begin with, its not that bad really. If a person was really pissed off with IE then they could always just go online and google: web browsers, and they would get their results.:rockout:
Posted on Reply
#19
lemonadesoda
Personally, I think these types of complaits are insane. There is one thing "tying" a user to software, ie. blocking the use of alternatives, and another which is to include functionality.

Is the NEXT complaint that Windows includes a file manager? Or a print manager? Or a clock? Or a screensaver? Or fonts?

... the list could go on.

Whatever happens, we MUSTNT have a situation where a standard windows install is as crippled/limited as a standard linux install.
Posted on Reply
#20
Darkrealms
by: robodude666
No.. schools use IE because they have a stock install from pre-built places... I'm sure some of the techs that work at schools don't even know of FireFox or Opera.

That is exactly my argument. How would they KNOW there are other web browsers out there? A lot of people use IE because its... there. They know it is a web browser. They know it works for them. But, how do they know it is the best for them? They don't, because they may not know about other browsers that exist.

Search for web browser? Good idea... Sadly, did you notice how many people sign up on forums every year and ask simple questions like "apple v orange" or "will this C2D work on my 775 motherboard?" or the other countless number of questions that can easily be answered by a search?

@_o <-- aww!!! Very cute :) I'm going to have to borrow it.
Here's another one for you @-;-- try it on your girl/boyfriend.

That was my point. They use what is easy and works (maybe not the best). They don't want to have to go around to each system and run an Opera install. That's a waste of time. Its also a waste of time to go around and clean up/reinstall computers after people polute them. My grade,high,colleges all allowed floppys and cds (usb wasn't around for some of those . . .).
by: effmaster
Quite right. the reason most schools use IE is because its what they are all familiar with and what is industry standard. Heck we can go on and on about how its unfair for people to be stuck with IE to begin with, its not that bad really. If a person was really pissed off with IE then they could always just go online and google: web browsers, and they would get their results.:rockout:
Thank you thats what I was saying. /sigh Oh well.
I didn't even google it (that could take way too much techyness, ya know ; ) I just used the address bar, oh and I msn searched it and got the same thing on top ; p

Here's a thought Opera. Ever hear of a small insignificant company called Intuit? Maybe a stupid little program called Quicken, and even better an useless little business program called QuickBooks? Oh and a massive over advertised product that rocks Microsoft Money??
Oh wait . . . didn't Microsoft end up bundling Quicken/QuickBooks into some of their releases??? GETTING THE HINT OPERA???? MAKE A PRODUCT THATS REALLY WORTH IT.
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#21
xvi
Opera, which filed the lawsuit in the EU, is asking the European Commission to force Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows or include other browsers as standard.
WHAT?! Do you know how many Open Source browsers there are?! Vista is going to end up coming on two discs.

Do they realize how tightly interwoven Internet Explorer is? You can't just pull that out. It's like pulling a plant. You're either going to snap it off at the root (and still have Internet Explorer bundled in there), or you're going to end up with a giant hole.

It's like asking Debian/Ubuntu to please remove apt-get because RPM isn't included. (Even though that wouldn't really work).

If Opera wants links on the desktop to download their software, then they can do it the normal way. PAY MICROSOFT TO PUT THEM THERE, NOT by going through some two-bit lawsuit.

And as I said to my roommate, if IE is ripped out of Windows, how do you get Opera.
Oh, that's simple, just go to opera.com. IN WHAT?!

I could go on forever. *sigh*
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#22
wazzledoozle
Opera will lose this lawsuit just as they should.

No one is forcing you to use IE. Microsoft provides it as a part of its operating system. A web browser is a necessary component of such software.

You can't justify the argument that Windows should come with other choices pre-installed as well. Windows is not Linux, it's a proprietary platform that Microsoft can do whatever they want with.
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#23
Kreij
Senior Monkey Moderator
I agree that Microsoft should be able to include their browser as it is a utility, not an application.
But also remember that when MS includes something for free, every other competitive product goes belly up. Let's say that MS inncluded MS Office for free. How long do you think any other office suites would last?
Due to it's controlling interest in the OS market, MS has an unfair advantage when talking about additional applications. This is where the anti-competitive laws kick in, so that MS does not simply squeeze everyone else out of the market.
Posted on Reply
#24
wazzledoozle
There is nothing unfair about their advantage, they have earned it through years of work. They simply have a lot of advantage.

An office suite is not necessary to the modern needs of an operating system. Not everyone needs excel, powerpoint, access, visio etc. But EVERYONE needs a web browser these days. Basic word processing is included with notepad/wordpad, but the office suite is a seperate software package.

Including something for free does not squeeze everyone else out of the market. Paint hasn't stopped Photoshop, windows media player hasn't stopped Itunes, wordpad hasn't stopped Office/Adobe, IE hasn't stopped Firefox, etc etc etc.

It's as simple as: if the application is easy enough to use for its intended purpose; then the user won't seek out a replacement. Obviously user's seek more features and usability with the above programs.

I've used Opera and didn't like it. The interface was way too cluttered, and not very intuitive. Loaded slower than Firefox as well. (At the time, maybe 2 years ago).
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#25
imperialreign
Internet Explorer is to Windows what oil is to your car's motor. It'll run for a little while without it, but be prepared for the ensuing chaos.


Opera should grow up, IMO.
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