DarkMatterWRONG. Spain is the country that most donates (in comparison to its incoming) in the WORLD. This is a fact that was covered by an study made by many NGOs in 2006. So you did SCREWED there, BADLY.

EDIT: Pff not only that, US is the country that less donates in the world, between the developed ones...

IT DOESN'T MATTER for what we are talking about anyway, but ALL your discussion has been based on that we want to take advantage of the weak dollar. I could stand that comment from pretty much any currency except the dollar and the country it belongs to. I won't deny my aversion for the recent US behavior in the world, for it's government (Bush) and the sheep legion that voted him, TWICE!! It's exactly mantaining that dominance of the dollar which made the US government decide to attack Iraq, and that's both unforgetable and unforgiveable. And I have all the reason to think this way, BUT that is not motivating my comments about Valve, even though I can admit they may be conditioning my replies to YOUR comments.

Mike's comments are just a BAD excuse made AFTER they were caught. As I said the currency BETA was established prior to them doing $1 = 1 € and worked flawlessly. VAT was not included in the price shown in the games list, but was applied later at the time of paying. Everything OK. Why the change? That's already answered.

Meh. Your wrong and your contempt for the U.S. wont let you admit it. Anyway check this out. The Red Cross As you can see Spain is 16th. Guess where the U.S. is. I wont even go into the aid we send to Africa. Bush sent more money to Africa than ANY U.S. president before him. Whine and cry all you want but them are the facts. :toast:

TheMailMan78Meh. Your wrong and your contempt for the U.S. wont let you admit it. Anyway check this out. The Red Cross As you can see Spain is 16th. Guess where the U.S. is. I wont even go into the aid we send to Africa. Bush sent more money to Africa than ANY U.S. president before him. Whine and cry all you want but them are the facts. :toast:

First of all Red Cross is not the only organization, and second put that in a per-capita basis and you will find something closer to the truth. LOL it's so easy to donate $5 when you have millions... When you stole millions...

Spain is much much more directly implicated than donating a 0.11% of the GPD. That's what the US donates. Spain does a 2% currently, I think, and does a lot more than just that.
Google Spain donations for a wider picture of the truth.

It would be amusing to see what they do if the Euro ever fell behind the dollar, i bet my a** they would convert their site back to dollars in a second using all the opposite excuses they've just given.
They have obviously had a sit down and said "what the hell are we going to do about this financial crisis?"
"Well the dollar is real weak now and so we're not making as much money from Europe as we were. As we are changing all out $$ in to Euros like many other companies!"
"so let's take advantage of our European market and charge them in Euro's, that way we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone - we have Euro's and we have more money"
"yea, i hate the French"

I believe it should be equal price for equal goods from the same supplier. Any other way is just discrimination.
Do Nike go to Cambodia and say, right we'll pay your workers $5p/h because we are buying the shoes you produce and we are from America?

DarkMatterFirst of all Red Cross is not the only organization, and second put that in a per-capita basis and you will find something closer to the truth. LOL it's so easy to donate $5 when you have millions... When you stole millions...

Spain is much much more directly implicated than donating a 0.11% of the GPD. That's what the US donates. Spain does a 2% currently, I think, and does a lot more than just that.
Google Spain donations for a wider picture of the truth.

Stole? lol dude you are so lost. Show me a reputable stat. Per capita. I gave you the Red Cross.

TheMailMan78Stole? lol dude you are so lost. Show me a reputable stat. Per capita. I gave you the Red Cross.

I don't want this to turn into a US bashing, but US capitalism sux. It takes advantage of the weak which is stealing in a way. Great for making money, but morally?..... On a personal level i'm sure most individuals would never do what the companies do.
Imagine going on E-Bay, buying something then the person saying, well you live in europe, instead of me charging you $50 i'm going to charge you 50euro, oh but i'll pay the tax.
What would you say to that seller?

This is not about which country is better and I don't want it to become that. Spain is FAR from being the most developed country. It would be NORMAL if it didn't donate anything at all, yet we are one of the countries that most contributes. Anyone who has ever been in Spain can confirm we are far from being greedy.

Anyway as silkstone said, what would you do if you had to pay $300 for your shoes? That's what you'd have to pay if the companies paid what the people doing them deserve. It's not different with hardware or anything the world and specially the US consumes. All the developed countries steal, US just does it more and what's worse is that it's the only one who thinks that doing wars is a good way of mantaining that status.

And bock on topic, there's no FAIR reason europeans have to pay $70+ for the same thing the rest of the world has "only" to pay $50. Period.

Alright, we're getting into a convolution and drifting away from the topic. Let's calm down.

Let Europeans keep off purchasing from Steam. Let them (Valve) get the pinch. Hopefully they'll listen. I personally like to purchase hard-copies of my games (including those by Valve), and when they get cheap.

Says you who hasn't spent an hour and a half trying to get the DVD drive to read a DVD.

silkstoneIt would be amusing to see what they do if the Euro ever fell behind the dollar, i bet my a** they would convert their site back to dollars in a second using all the opposite excuses they've just given.
They have obviously had a sit down and said "what the hell are we going to do about this financial crisis?"
"Well the dollar is real weak now and so we're not making as much money from Europe as we were. As we are changing all out $$ in to Euros like many other companies!"
"so let's take advantage of our European market and charge them in Euro's, that way we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone - we have Euro's and we have more money"
"yea, i hate the French"

I believe it should be equal price for equal goods from the same supplier. Any other way is just discrimination.
Do Nike go to Cambodia and say, right we'll pay your workers $5p/h because we are buying the shoes you produce and we are from America?

Absolutely nothing else in the computer industry is like that in EU. Why should Steam be any different?

They are doing the same thing as EVERYONE ELSE. So why is it OK for others, but not Steam?

silkstoneI don't want this to turn into a US bashing, but US capitalism sux. It takes advantage of the weak which is stealing in a way. Great for making money, but morally?..... On a personal level i'm sure most individuals would never do what the companies do.
Imagine going on E-Bay, buying something then the person saying, well you live in europe, instead of me charging you $50 i'm going to charge you 50euro, oh but i'll pay the tax.
What would you say to that seller?

I think EU's socialist style of economy sucks. If somebody has made something they want to sell, they should be able to sell it at any price they see fit, and they shouldn't have to disclose any secrets about it either.

If they set the price too high, and it doesn't sell, they fail. Where's the problem here?

Wile EI think EU's socialist style of economy sucks. If somebody has made something they want to sell, they should be able to sell it at any price they see fit, and they shouldn't have to disclose any secrets about it either..

I got to say i agree 100% there everything so expensive and if i made something i wouldnt want to share its secrets either tbh.
But i think its the way valve went about it that got people by the balls...a bit more openness about the price increase would be good but its their call at the end of the day. This just gives users the choice now " do i pay for a hard copy or the convenience of steam ??" not a choice users want but they got it now.

But i still think we should have a revolution for our AUSSIE friends they got a raw deal:rockout::D, But why are games/Hardware so expensive in AUS in the first place ?

btarunrthey have been given a largely unfair pricing scheme with products on the Steam platform, that violates trade laws.

Thanks actually quite an interesting point. Differentiated pricing due to currency significantly beyond sales taxes. Can a consumer can choose to pay in one currency over another (so eay on cc billing) or does location FORCE a currency and price, like some obnline websales?

I think the complaint is good, and I hope a precedent is set at EU level.

LOTS of online/websites sell goods at very different prices depending on currency selected. I hope they are foced to stop.

play.com is a BIG offender. They have historically charged a lot lot more for EURO based purchases. I used to buy sterling and deliver to europe. They then stopped that and FORCED higher EURO prices on deliveries to Europe EVEN THOUGH their delivery cost (from Channel Islands) was the same.

Let's hope this issue gets solved at EU level.

I hope the EU does nothing about it. Let Steam suffer sales losses and handle it on their own. The government shouldn't step in over something like this.

Wile EAbsolutely nothing else in the computer industry is like that in EU. Why should Steam be any different?

They are doing the same thing as EVERYONE ELSE. So why is it OK for others, but not Steam?

I think EU's socialist style of economy sucks. If somebody has made something they want to sell, they should be able to sell it at any price they see fit, and they shouldn't have to disclose any secrets about it either.

Others are not overcharging so much as Valve wanted to do. As I have explained retail has a lot more costs involved, so a higher price is justified. Anyway we've been complaining about the retail prices in the EU many times so I don't know where the people are taking now the stupid idea that we are compfortable with retail prices. Because someone does something wrong, that doesn¡t give you the right to do the same. Only little kids think that way, at least here in Spain.

As I too said I don't really and necesarily see anything wrong in them charging whatever they want, as long as THEY charge the same for everybody (then let any country decide the VAT they want to charge) or ultimately if they had the balls of admiting why.

If others selling in retail charged the same in EU and the US that wouldn't be fair for US customers or developers, because (AGAIN :banghead:) the cost of selling anyhing in EU, specially when it comes from the US is higher. But Steam is not the same, there are not any extra expenses derived from selling in the EU so, ethically, morally or whatever form you want to call it (maybe even legally, we'll see), they do not have the right to charge more in the EU than in the rest of the world.

If they set the price too high, and it doesn't sell, they fail. Where's the problem here?

Discrimination violates the human rights AFAIK.

DarkMatterOthers are not overcharging so much as Valve wanted to do. As I have explained retail has a lot more costs involved, so a higher price is justified. Anyway we've been complaining about the retail prices in the EU many times so I don't know where the people are taking now the stupid idea that we are compfortable with retail prices. Because someone does something wrong, that doesn¡t give you the right to do the same. Only little kids think that way, at least here in Spain.

As I too said I don't really and necesarily see anything wrong in them charging whatever they want, as long as THEY charge the same for everybody (then let any country decide the VAT they want to charge) or ultimately if they had the balls of admiting why.

If others selling in retail charged the same in EU and the US that wouldn't be fair for US customers or developers, because (AGAIN :banghead:) the cost of selling anyhing in EU, specially when it comes from the US is higher. But Steam is not the same, there are not any extra expenses derived from selling in the EU so, ethically, morally or whatever form you want to call it (maybe even legally, we'll see), they do not have the right to charge more in the EU than in the rest of the world.



Discrimination violates the human rights AFAIK.

Again, It does not matter how much it costs them to deliver it to you. It doesn't matter if it's retail or digital distribution. It is still a game. That's all that matters. Every other channel follows the $1=1eu model, give or take. They are matching market prices for games. That's the important part, games. Delivery method is not important.

And it doesn't violate any human rights. Since when do games have anything to do with human rights? And they aren't discriminating. Everybody in the EU pays the same price.

As I said, unethical as opposed to illegal :p.

Wile EAgain, It does not matter how much it costs them to deliver it to you. It doesn't matter if it's retail or digital distribution. It is still a game. That's all that matters. Every other channel follows the $1=1eu model, give or take. They are matching market prices for games. That's the important part, games. Delivery method is not important.

And it doesn't violate any human rights. Since when do games have anything to do with human rights? And they aren't discriminating. Everybody in the EU pays the same price.

How does delivery not effect price? In standard goods (physical goods) they have to pay all the delivery charges, which are considerably higher in the EU, so the EU consumer has to pay those costs, and is why things in the EU are priced higher than the US. Delivery needs to take into account all aspects of logistics and not just paying the truck driver. Then there are also the retail costs, which are also higher in the EU (yes the EU has a decent minimum wage)

Anyway DarkMatter has said all this before, so we're going round in circles, but i'll say it again.

It costs steam the same amount of money to deliver the product to a US customer as it does to deliver the product to the EU customer. With other physical goods (console games, clothing, .....) with the 1euro=$1 conversion a lot of that money is going to pay workers in the EU, taxes and i'm sure the company gets a few % extra. With steam the $1=1euro conversion, the extra goes to taxes but the bulk of it goes to the company. Which is unfair when you compare it to other US imported goods.

Most companies where you can buy software over the internet act fairly, you download the software from a US server and you pay the US price. STEAM IS AN EXCEPTION. Think of all the software on your computer - out of that software, what can be purchased on-line? I'm guessing most of it can. Now look on there website and go thru the ordering process, you will be charged in USD. I myself have at least $500 worth of software i have purchased/registered on-line and i paid the US price for it so $1=1Euro IS NOT STANDARD

I like swords....

silkstoneHow does delivery not effect price? In standard goods (physical goods) they have to pay all the delivery charges, which are considerably higher in the EU, so the EU consumer has to pay those costs, and is why things in the EU are priced higher than the US. Delivery needs to take into account all aspects of logistics and not just paying the truck driver. Then there are also the retail costs, which are also higher in the EU (yes the EU has a decent minimum wage)

Anyway DarkMatter has said all this before, so we're going round in circles, but i'll say it again.

It costs steam the same amount of money to deliver the product to a US customer as it does to deliver the product to the EU customer. With other physical goods (console games, clothing, .....) with the 1euro=$1 conversion a lot of that money is going to pay workers in the EU, taxes and i'm sure the company gets a few % extra. With steam the $1=1euro conversion, the extra goes to taxes but the bulk of it goes to the company. Which is unfair when you compare it to other US imported goods.

Most companies where you can buy software over the internet act fairly, you download the software from a US server and you pay the US price. STEAM IS AN EXCEPTION. Think of all the software on your computer - out of that software, what can be purchased on-line? I'm guessing most of it can. Now look on there website and go thru the ordering process, you will be charged in USD. I myself have at least $500 worth of software i have purchased/registered on-line and i paid the US price for it so $1=1Euro IS NOT STANDARD

It doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is delivered. They are games, PERIOD. You pay $1=1EU for most other games. Their market value is still the same, because they are games. It does not matter how they are delivered, or how much it costs to deliver them. They are matching the market price for games.

They have every right to do that. If you don't like it, send them the message by not buying their games. It's plain and simple. If enough people feel their prices are too high, and quit buying, the prices will come back down.

Wile EIt doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is delivered. They are games, PERIOD. You pay $1=1EU for most other games. Their market value is still the same, because they are games. It does not matter how they are delivered, or how much it costs to deliver them. They are matching the market price for games.

They have every right to do that. If you don't like it, send them the message by not buying their games. It's plain and simple. If enough people feel their prices are too high, and quit buying, the prices will come back down.

Fair enough.

I believe that as the consumer isn't receiving the same goods as bought in store, it should be cheaper. For example, no CD (so no physical backup), no Box, no manual,.. and also steam users are saving the company money by using it's services it should pass on those savings to it's consumers.

You have a valid point, but i don't entirely agree, so lets just agree to disagree :toast:

Wile EIt doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is delivered. They are games, PERIOD. You pay $1=1EU for most other games. Their market value is still the same, because they are games. It does not matter how they are delivered, or how much it costs to deliver them. They are matching the market price for games.

They have every right to do that. If you don't like it, send them the message by not buying their games. It's plain and simple. If enough people feel their prices are too high, and quit buying, the prices will come back down.

You still don't get it? They are selling games, yes. BUT at retail they are selling much more things than the game. They are selling you the box, they are selling the manual, they are selling you the games with many different language options. I don't caree if you think that hasn't any value. It DOES and it should be priced accordingly.

There's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.

DarkMatterYou still don't get it? They are selling games, yes. BUT at retail they are selling much more things than the game. They are selling you the box, they are selling the manual, they are selling you the games with many different language options. I don't caree if you think that hasn't any value. It DOES and it should be priced accordingly.

There's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.

I agree with you about steams policy DM, but i think you are being a bit harsh in your reply to Wile E. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and are free to express that opinion whether or not it is something that effects them or whether or not other people agree with that opinion.
This new policy doesn't effect me, as i can't use steam, i can't even obtain legitimate copies of any game. But i used to live in Europe and so do care about the issue. And so i felt the need to express my opinion also.

Gam'sterI got to say i agree 100% there everything so expensive and if i made something i wouldnt want to share its secrets either tbh.
But i think its the way valve went about it that got people by the balls...a bit more openness about the price increase would be good but its their call at the end of the day. This just gives users the choice now " do i pay for a hard copy or the convenience of steam ??" not a choice users want but they got it now.

But i still think we should have a revolution for our AUSSIE friends they got a raw deal:rockout::D, But why are games/Hardware so expensive in AUS in the first place ?

I really dont know why mate its one of the great mysterys of life. :confused: Thanks though now cmon everyone revolution time lower prices for Aussie games. :p:toast:

silkstoneI agree with you about steams policy DM, but i think you are being a bit harsh in your reply to Wile E. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and are free to express that opinion whether or not it is something that effects them or whether or not other people agree with that opinion.
This new policy doesn't effect me, as i can't use steam, i can't even obtain legitimate copies of any game. But i used to live in Europe and so do care about the issue. And so i felt the need to express my opinion also.

Well, yeah maybe I expresed it in the wrong way. It's not that I think he should not have an opinion. Of course he can and of course he can express it here. But he is doing way more than that, he is saying that our complaints are not legitimate, that we are wrong with our opinions and for that NO, he has no right to reply IMO.

DarkMatterThere's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.

It really doesn't matter. This is a supply/demand issue. Valve projects that for a higher price, they can pull in more money or at least break even with the old price. There's nothing illegal about it. If it were illegal, all these cookie manufacturers couldn't sell the exact same cookie under 10 different brands ranging in price from $1 to $10 a box. If the demand exists, they exploit it.

So, if you don't like it, prove their economists wrong: don't buy the product off of Steam at the inflated price. If they see their bottom line declining because of the change, they'll change it back. Dollars and cents are the only language businesses understand. You decide what is "fair" or not by your "dollar vote."

FordGT90ConceptIt really doesn't matter. This is a supply/demand issue. Valve projects that for a higher price, they can pull in more money or at least break even with the old price. There's nothing illegal about it. If it were illegal, all these cookie manufacturers couldn't sell the exact same cookie under 10 different brands ranging in price from $1 to $10 a box. If the demand exists, they exploit it.

So, if you don't like it, prove their economists wrong: don't buy the product off of Steam at the inflated price. If they see their bottom line declining because of the change, they'll change it back. Dollars and cents are the only language businesses understand. You decide what is "fair" or not by your "dollar vote."

For the 1000th time. I DON'T CARE WHAT IS LEGAL OR WHAT NOT! IT'S NOT FAIR AND THEY ARE SCAMING US JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND I HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS IN THE WORLD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT SCAM!!

PLUS if it's legal or not that's something still to be seen.

Dont worry that I won't buy any game from Steam, a lot of people won't. I won't buy Valve games neither, maybe HL:Ep3 to finish the series, but that's all. I was going to buy L4D this holidays, but never will.

BUT that won't prevent this move from being profitable for them. With the new margins they just imposed, they could sell 10 times less games and still make more money than before. That's the sad part, that no matter what we do, they win, we lose. Because it's easy that a 10% of people will pay whatever they charge, they always do.

EDIT: Oh and BTW, what you said about the cookies doesn't happen in the EU (at least for long), there are laws in place to prevent that kind of things. It's sad if that happens in US, but what it is more sad is that you see it something normal. I will never understand the conformism of the "americans"...