Wednesday, March 25th 2009

Single-PCB GeForce GTX 295 in the Works

Traditionally, NVIDIA designs dual-GPU accelerators with two PCBs holding a GPU system each. With the GeForce GTX 295 and its competitive pricing, NVIDIA found itself in a difficult position, as it faces direct competition from ATI with its now competitively priced Radeon HD 4870 X2. On the one hand, escalating manufacturing costs due to extreme competition with the sub-$300 graphics card market, is making it difficult for NVIDIA to keep up with GTX 295 stocks, on the other its repercussions that include bad press and losses due to not being able to keep up with demand, have pushed NVIDIA to rethink a way to make the GeForce GTX 295.

Enter innovation. The company is reportedly redesigning the GeForce GTX 295, this time on a single PCB design, which ATI has been using for its dual-GPU accelerators. Both GPU systems of the GTX 295 will be placed on a single PCB. This is expected to significantly bring down manufacturing costs, allowing the company to keep up with demands and competitive pricing. Expreview sourced the drawings of one of the prototypes, which shows a long single PCB card, with a central fan. You will also observe that there is a back-plate in place. It shows that a number of memory chips will be populated on the back, and both GPU systems on the front. It will be an engineering challenge, to populate five major heat-producing components (two G200b GPUs, two NVIO2 processors, and one BR-03 bridge chip), 28 GDDR3 memory chips, and the VRM area to power it all. The new redesigned card may surface internally in April, and may enter production by May.

Source: Expreview
Add your own comment

74 Comments on Single-PCB GeForce GTX 295 in the Works

#1
Imsochobo
nvidia was after the performance crown, then they probaly found out, it really doesn't matter at all, cause ati is selling cards like hot cakes!

Dual PCB design giving them less cashin than ATI does, and with lowered sales....

If the financial crysis wasnt enough, ati is stealing their market share!

I totally understand why, 4870 X2 may be 80's in temp, WHO CARES?

I see all the Core7 fans, run their core 7 at 3.8 ghz, and ... 90 C does anyone of them complain ? no.

Its design to handle it! btw, my 4870's idle 53 load 63. runs nicely, maxes out everything, was cheap when i bought them, best buy ive done!

Nvidia is doing the right thing, i guess, but ATI is not making many new products, and milking the cow (hd4890) and testing 40NM( RV740) while nvidia fixes their rushwork....
HD5xxx vs GTX3xx (hope its not based on some GTX2xx. for the lower end.)

Lets hope ati isnt tossing them around for too long, nvidia might have performance crown, but ati got the cheapest design, and gets most cash, and actually prices lower than nvidia in an overpower situation.

Just to like, for most. nvidia have never priced their highest end graphics card as low as now, hmm, why.. ? 4870x2 ?
Posted on Reply
#2
wolf
Performance Enthusiast
to everyone;

it is a measure to make the card CHEAPER, remember that when your riding the wave of love for the X2.

Ya'll seem to be jumping to the conclusion that this is an admittance the design is worse, not the case, its an admittance the card is expensive.

the card beats a 4870X2, as a 9800GX2 did to the 3870X2, you can meah meah meah all you want but those are the cold hard facts.

Also, remind me again the difference in temp between two 4870 cores on an X2 under load?

Do i get the cap too Tatty?
Posted on Reply
#3
PP Mguire
I think the fan positioning is great considering the physics of how a fan and air works.
Posted on Reply
#4
DarkMatter
by: PP Mguire
I think the fan positioning is great considering the physics of how a fan and air works.
I have mixed feelings about that TBH. It's true that this way both GPUs will get fresh and clean air, in the sense that the hot air of one GPU will not go directly to the other one. But because the hot air of one GPU will be thrown to the case again there's going to be a little bit of heat feedback again to the card. Not a problem in a well vented case anyway and because of the pricepoint of the card that won't be a problem. Anyway I have to coincide with others (yeah, Tatty prepare the cap :laugh:) that this design is better than the one in the X2.
Posted on Reply
#5
Kursah
This card is definately a good thing IMO, sure I dont' mind the 2-PCB design, and they've proven it works pretty well, but aftermarket cooling solutions/support, and cost will play a big part in how cards like this are executed, I'm actually glad to see this just for the fact that cards like these on the NV side are a little more opened up for those who like aftermarket air cooling (thermaltake and Arctic Cooling come to mind)...sure there are the water blocks for the current 2PCB cards...I have no interest in that.

Though I still prefer a single GPU/single card solution just for the lower hassle solution along with being nicer on the wallet, if the price is right on these and the cooling at least decent till some aftermarket coolers are released, I could see myself snagging one of these beasts around june/july...which means I'll have had my current 260 for almost a year (bought the 192sp in July, stepped up to 216 in sept)...which alone is really impressive, though I usually stuck with mid-range cards on my previous purchases...I am glad I spent extra on what I have and as much as I game and with future plans of a 24" monitor with higher resolutions, more visual horsepower will be necessary for my wants. Of course by summer I'm sure there will be other products out, if this is still a healthy contender with an even cheaper price, I'll be happy!

:toast:
Posted on Reply
#6
Wile E
Power User
The fact that nVidia's sandwich designs have been the fastest of the current generations has nothing to do with the practicality of the design.

I personally hate the sandwich design. It makes it near impossible to water cool without buying a $150 block. Especially when I have plenty of universal blocks sitting here. All it costs me to cool a single pcb dual gpu card is the price of some copper heatsinks for the vrms and memory. A total of around $20-25 in the worst case scenario.

Even tho I'm a minority with h2o, the sandwich design doesn't offer any advantage to anyone looking to upgrade stock cooling, even if it's only air.
Posted on Reply
#7
PP Mguire
by: DarkMatter
I have mixed feelings about that TBH. It's true that this way both GPUs will get fresh and clean air, in the sense that the hot air of one GPU will not go directly to the other one. But because the hot air of one GPU will be thrown to the case again there's going to be a little bit of heat feedback again to the card. Not a problem in a well vented case anyway and because of the pricepoint of the card that won't be a problem. Anyway I have to coincide with others (yeah, Tatty prepare the cap :laugh:) that this design is better than the one in the X2.
Fans spin one way, in which the air goes that way. So if the fan is designed to blow down the air will go down and to the left. If you look at the card from the top of it (looking at the fan and top portion of board) the air is vented out the back of the case. So essentialy NO air should go back into your case. Besides, the back portion is closed off.
Posted on Reply
#8
Nick89
by: tigger
At least they've woken up to how crappy the dual pcb design is.
agreed. :toast:
Posted on Reply
#9
DarkMatter
by: PP Mguire
Fans spin one way, in which the air goes that way. So if the fan is designed to blow down the air will go down and to the left. If you look at the card from the top of it (looking at the fan and top portion of board) the air is vented out the back of the case. So essentialy NO air should go back into your case. Besides, the back portion is closed off.
False. Sorry but completelely false. A fan blows air in one direction and that direction is the one of his axis, in this case as you said, it will blow it down. But other than that the fan is radial and blows air in any direction perpendicular to it's axis, not only to the left. :roll:
Posted on Reply
#10
Error 404
by: DrPepper
Can't have been that bad if they all stole the performance crown from ati :p
I love it how every time ATI comes up with a card that beats nVidia's top card, nVidia goes "Right, we'll stick TWO cores on ONE card and call it a day!"

The sandwich design is quite efficiant, if done correctly; however, it makes it extremely difficult to fit an aftermarket cooler, so whats the point if you're not able to OC the card!

Also, with the heatsink-on-both-sides-of-the-card idea, it would work fine; how many silent coolers use the design where the HS is held over the back of the card?
E.g:
(There's a big HS on the back, honest!)

If one could combine that with a front-mounted HS as well, you'd have a nice cooling solution.
Posted on Reply
#11
InnocentCriminal
Resident Grammar Amender
Not to rain on your parade Error, but having a dual HS solution on such a large card would in fact make the card even bigger, which in my eyes is a bad move. I can't help but imagine they'll have to have at least a dual fan design or something similar to Arctic Cooling's 3 fan solution...

Posted on Reply
#12
Tatty_One
Senior Moderator
by: Imsochobo
nvidia was after the performance crown, then they probaly found out, it really doesn't matter at all, cause ati is selling cards like hot cakes!

If the financial crysis wasnt enough, ati is stealing their market share!

Nvidia is doing the right thing, i guess, but ATI is not making many new products, and milking the cow (hd4890) and testing 40NM( RV740) while nvidia fixes their rushwork....
HD5xxx vs GTX3xx (hope its not based on some GTX2xx. for the lower end.)

Lets hope ati isnt tossing them around for too long, nvidia might have performance crown, but ati got the cheapest design, and gets most cash, and actually prices lower than nvidia in an overpower situation.

Just to like, for most. nvidia have never priced their highest end graphics card as low as now, hmm, why.. ? 4870x2 ?
Not sure where you have got all your information from, much of what you have said is good, however, ATI/AMD has improved their market share across the graphics/chipset etc markets, however they still fall considerably short of NVidia. Both in fact at times during 2008 were working with "significant net losses", once the combined year end figures are available (as opposed to projected) there may well be some serious gains made by ATi/AMD but overall they will still remain behind in market share although their profitability may be better. I am glad ATi are doing better, they need to, 2006/2007 overall were not good times for them, we all want them to do well (even NVidia fanboi's) because without them... we all lose.

Intel is the one to watch in the graphics segment, they are to some degree stealing the show from both ATI/AMD and NVidia, if things do get dire for both companies over the next couple of years due to Intels ever expanding graphics market share, who do you think of the 2 is most likely to ride the storm?

Just for info, a snapshot of Q2 2008 but that trend generally continued throughout the year, the market share between Red and Green did narrow further but not to the point of equilibrium, I stress this is just the GPU market, when you add the "wider" markets into the equation, NVidia's position becomes stronger I think.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2008/08/graphics-industry-healthy-in-q2-despite-economic-fears.ars
Posted on Reply
#13
eidairaman1
that makes a card use 3 slots regardless.
Posted on Reply
#14
DarkMatter
by: Error 404
The sandwich design is quite efficiant, if done correctly; however, it makes it extremely difficult to fit an aftermarket cooler, so whats the point if you're not able to OC the card!
That would be true if the card didn't overclock, but it can reach 700 Mhz with relatively ease and staying below 90ºC according to most reviews (no, I haven't tried this card myself). That's more than 20% OC...

by: Tatty_One
Just for info, a snapshot of Q2 2008 but that trend generally continued throughout the year, the market share between Red and Green did narrow further but not to the point of equilibrium, I stress this is just the GPU market, when you add the "wider" markets into the equation, NVidia's position becomes stronger I think.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2008/08/graphics-industry-healthy-in-q2-despite-economic-fears.ars
Tha's true and furthermore, Nvidia is doing much better again with the 55nm GT200, regaining some market share in 2009.
Posted on Reply
#15
wolf
Performance Enthusiast
by: DarkMatter
That would be true if the card didn't overclock, but it can reach 700 Mhz with relatively ease and staying below 90ºC according to most reviews (no, I haven't tried this card myself). That's more than 20% OC...
Mine does a full vantage run @ 756/1620/2266 @ 1188mv without topping 90. That is @ 100% fan, but you don't HAVE to change the cooling, and i really don't mind a noisy card too much as long as it doesn't whine, the 4870's I had at full speed were completely obnoxious compared to the 295 @ full fan.

everyday overclock is between 650-700 on the core which 67% fan takes care of easily.
Posted on Reply
#16
PCpraiser100
Nice, this means we can mount better coolers, with better installation. Plus, this means we get easier installation as well and a fair competition with the HD 4890X2.
Posted on Reply
#17
DarkMatter
by: wolf
Mine does a full vantage run @ 756/1620/2266 @ 1188mv without topping 90. That is @ 100% fan, but you don't HAVE to change the cooling, and i really don't mind a noisy card too much as long as it doesn't whine, the 4870's I had at full speed were completely obnoxious compared to the 295 @ full fan.

everyday overclock is between 650-700 on the core which 67% fan takes care of easily.
Yeah I know such clocks are attainable with relative ease as well, but I didn't want to go overkill with my point. You need experience and a good airflow (not the best) to attain those, while 650-700 Mhz can be attained by a monkey.
Posted on Reply
#18
wolf
Performance Enthusiast
by: DarkMatter
while 650-700 Mhz can be attained by a monkey.
the GTX295 really opens up at those speeds. hears an example of a game where overclocking benefits really show. (clocks are in the aforementioned range) the stock cooler would take this oc with ease. so i pose to all, cost aside, what is the downfall of the stock cooler some seem to hate so much? the only one i can see is the moderate noise, other than that i think its a great design to suit most applications of the card.

Posted on Reply
#19
douglatins
by: Wile E
The fact that nVidia's sandwich designs have been the fastest of the current generations has nothing to do with the practicality of the design.

I personally hate the sandwich design. It makes it near impossible to water cool without buying a $150 block. Especially when I have plenty of universal blocks sitting here. All it costs me to cool a single pcb dual gpu card is the price of some copper heatsinks for the vrms and memory. A total of around $20-25 in the worst case scenario.

Even tho I'm a minority with h2o, the sandwich design doesn't offer any advantage to anyone looking to upgrade stock cooling, even if it's only air.
Yes because liquid cooling is the "value" decision! Oh and how much exactly is a 4870X2 block? 150? And what about the 295? 180? Thats not a big difference.


by: X-TeNDeR
The current NVidia offerings are more potent, thats true. but i was referring to the now apparent fact that the complicated sandwich designs made by NVidia are too expensive and big. fanbiosm aside, i wouldnt mind having the GTX295, performance-wise. but these cards are too expensive and complicated. NVidia sees this and this is where the new design comes in.

And that shows that the general approach of single pcb is better, in terms of manufacturing costs and availability, especially in the long term. ATi must of made the math and stick to this design.

I'm glad NVidia is doing this, as this will lower the costs for everyone, and keep the market competitive.
And why say the sandwich card is complicated? Will you build one? Write a paper on one? And why care about THEIR manufacturing costs, since they put whatever price they want

by: wolf
the GTX295 really opens up at those speeds. hears an example of a game where overclocking benefits really show. (clocks are in the aforementioned range) the stock cooler would take this oc with ease. so i pose to all, cost aside, what is the downfall of the stock cooler some seem to hate so much? the only one i can see is the moderate noise, other than that i think its a great design to suit most applications of the card.

http://img.techpowerup.org/090218/perf_oc.gif
And wolf thats my point on selling X2 for a 295, thought at this time i have none. LOL.
Also i hated my X2 Temps without having to up the % a lot.
Posted on Reply
#20
Hayder_Master
is this the GTX295+ or - or GTX290 , but this design is better and the cooler is crab , so we wait for non reference coolers will be better , at last for 300$ it is good card with cheap price
Posted on Reply
#21
Wile E
Power User
by: douglatins
Yes because liquid cooling is the "value" decision! Oh and how much exactly is a 4870X2 block? 150? And what about the 295? 180? Thats not a big difference.




And why say the sandwich card is complicated? Will you build one? Write a paper on one? And why care about THEIR manufacturing costs, since they put whatever price they want



And wolf thats my point on selling X2 for a 295, thought at this time i have none. LOL.
Also i hated my X2 Temps without having to up the % a lot.
My point was that I don't have to use a full cover block on a 4870X2, or any other single pcb card, for that matter. I have 2 MCW60's sitting here that would work just fine, as do countless other water cooling enthusiasts. I can't say the same for the dual pcb design. The only reason I have a full cover block on my X2 is because I got it used locally for $40 from a friend that lost his job, and just needed a little cash to eat with until his unemployment checks started. And 4870X2 full cover blocks start at around $100 new, btw. Considering that both of these cards are so expensive to begin with, saving money on the cooling is a big factor to someone that has saved up to get the card in the first place.
Posted on Reply
#22
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
by: Error 404
I love it how every time ATI comes up with a card that beats nVidia's top card, nVidia goes "Right, we'll stick TWO cores on ONE card and call it a day!"
I think you have nVidia and ATi reversed. ATi is the one that slaps two cores on one card to best nVidia's single core cards.

by: Error 404
The sandwich design is quite efficiant, if done correctly; however, it makes it extremely difficult to fit an aftermarket cooler, so whats the point if you're not able to OC the card!
You don't need aftermarket cooling to overclock, the stock cooler does a fine job at allowing overclocking.
Posted on Reply
#23
Tatty_One
Senior Moderator
by: wolf
to everyone;

it is a measure to make the card CHEAPER, remember that when your riding the wave of love for the X2.

Ya'll seem to be jumping to the conclusion that this is an admittance the design is worse, not the case, its an admittance the card is expensive.

the card beats a 4870X2, as a 9800GX2 did to the 3870X2, you can meah meah meah all you want but those are the cold hard facts.

Also, remind me again the difference in temp between two 4870 cores on an X2 under load?

Do i get the cap too Tatty?
Sorry, I am 3 days behind everyone else :(, just noticed that old post.....No you dont get the cap, you are stating facts, whether people like it ot not, the 295 IS the fastest card out there period, the only people who get to wear the cap are those that blatantly dis-regard facts through fanboi blindness.
Posted on Reply
#24
Wile E
Power User
by: newtekie1
I think you have nVidia and ATi reversed. ATi is the one that slaps two cores on one card to best nVidia's single core cards.



You don't need aftermarket cooling to overclock, the stock cooler does a fine job at allowing overclocking.
Not with volt mods.
Posted on Reply
Add your own comment