The Mini-ITX build begins.

[xBruce88x]

wow that is pretty sweet.

is this the type of powersupply you're using? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338042

o.o i dunno if this will fit with your video card, but i think your cooling problem would be solved with it! and it has a nice 16A 12v rail.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339004

[Lazzer408]

i remember working on a lot of the SFF dell optiplexes and their power supplies had blowers as well. maybe a small blower for the powersupply would work?

That's a good idea if the SPI300's fan became too anoying. It would require modifying the opening of the psu but if the case came supplied with a psu, which it probably will be, then it's not too big a deal.

Is anyone interested enough to consider buying something like this?

wow that is pretty sweet.

is this the type of powersupply you're using? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338042

o.o i dunno if this will fit with your video card, but i think your cooling problem would be solved with it! and it has a nice 16A 12v rail.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339004

Close. The AP-MFATX30 is the same size as the SPI300F4BB. The HEC250SRT wouldn't fit. The SPI300 is rated to have 15a 12v1 and 15a 12v2. Not at the same time ofcorse. Internally they all only have one 12v rail. I think it's a bit deceiving the way psu manufactures use the term. Reguardless. One 16a 12v rail is 192w worth.
http://www.sparklepower.com/pdf/SPI300F4BB.pdf

[xBruce88x]

ah ok.

well one last idea for powersupplies then... at least the last i could think of right now...
could you tack little chipset fans to the heat spreaders of the powersupply? kinda like these...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103155

i guess these would also help... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108096

[Lazzer408]

ah ok.

well one last idea for powersupplies then... at least the last i could think of right now...
could you tack little chipset fans to the heat spreaders of the powersupply? kinda like these...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103155

i guess these would also help... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108096

Probably. :roll: I'm trying to stay away from modding things. It was easier to make a new case to fit the smallest standard components I could find.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29891&stc=1&d=1256273552

[xBruce88x]

lol yea i forgot you tried that already...:laugh:

oh i google'd SPI300F4BB and your response to what i posted about the other power supply is already on the results list lol:rockout:

[Lazzer408]

lol yea i forgot you tried that already...:laugh:

oh i google'd SPI300F4BB and your response to what i posted about the other power supply is already on the results list lol:rockout:

I've noticed that. TPU seems to come up quite often when I'm Googling "tech stuffs". -Gives Google a cookie- Good google.

That little heatsink actually worked well. I was so bent on the dual supply setup for awhile. I could do it easily now with the extra 1/2" height I added but I'm going to immediately digress from the thought before another month goes by. lol

[xBruce88x]

haha yea good idea, well i guess an easy mod would be to get a deeper fan for more airflow and less/same noise at the same time for that power supply and longer screws to make up for the size.

[Lazzer408]

Boy can those 70mm fans suck. Sounds like a server. :roll:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30430&stc=1&d=1257552523

[p_o_s_pc]

wow nice airflow there

[Lazzer408]

Here's where it's at right now (first pic). I won't get the SPI300 supply until next week but in the mean time I can use this one for testing. It's close to the same size and efficiency rating. The supply is only warm with the 60mm low rpm fan laying on it. The second pic is the 2 70mm fans shown in the case. I'm going to place them on the right side blowing out. The cpu makes the most heat and that location, blowing out, they bring air into the rear slot for the cpu then evacuate it right away and also brings air in the videocard side. The motherboard was moved over 1/8" to make room for them. The last pic is the airflow. I guess I can get started on the fan controller. It will be a thermal controlled PWM using a dual comparator to create the PWM, mosfet low-side switch, and user adjustable.

From the pics it doesn't look like anything new but to semi-quote Edison, I now know 10 ways not to make a case. :D Once all the parts are here and the paint is on we'll all see how all this time pays off. :rockout:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30431&stc=1&d=1257559760
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30432&stc=1&d=1257566972
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30433&stc=1&d=1257560138

[Lazzer408]

More testing. The 4870 is alot quieter. I made a 6-pin to dual 6-pin because I was to lazy to pull the psu and solder in another one. That's hdmi to my 56" tv.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30436&stc=1&d=1257589388

[xBruce88x]

I think your ITX build is more powerful than my desktop!

[wolf]

wow dude, post #260 things are starting to shape up pretty epically, I think there is a lot of potential in custom mini ITX builds, the pci-e riser card is a must for something quite flat like yours, where can you buy them from anyway?

[xBruce88x]

you could try Logic Supply

Riser Card (http://www.logicsupply.com/products/pcie_101l_16)

[Lazzer408]

Nothing much to update. Just trying different fan sizes, speeds, locations, and then testing. So far the cpu load heat doesn't effect the gpu idle temp and the gpu load heat doesn't effect the cpu idle temp. With the psu installed in the case I'm seeing about 10c higher on the cpu, no effect on the gpu. I'll have to reconsider the fan duct. A plastic duct using double-sided tape, to hold it to the case cover, will probably be the route I'll take. Cheap and easy and I already know it's effective.

[Lazzer408]

Yup I'm going to go with the duct. The heat from the psu and the cpu recycling it's air is getting it too hot. 49c idle with fans on low. With the duct in place and fans on low it's 37c idle. I'm sure the issue gets progressively worse as things heat up under load. With the duct it's all good.

I ordered this tonight.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811996004

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/11-996-004-S01?$S640W$

[Lazzer408]

Here's the acoustic measurments on the SPI300 psu. It's going to be noisy. :( As far as I can tell this is the closest model for the fan (highlighted). Where does the CPU get it's power from these days? 3.3v, 5v, or 12v?

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30483&stc=1&d=1257775367

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30484&stc=1&d=1257775384

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30485&stc=1&d=1257775881

[Geofrancis]

i think cpu's these days take all there power from the 12v line.

that power supply doesn't look like it has enough power on the 12v rail only 7a on each rail.

[xBruce88x]

hmm.. the only thing i can think of for that as far as noise would be to have a short flexible 40mm tube in place of the 40mm fan, at the other end have a 40mm to 60mm/50mm adapter with a 60mm/50mm fan attached. i know it sounds crazy and might take up more room, but i looked for quieter 40mm fans and just couldn't find any with the same airflow rating.

or you can make your own 40mm to 50/60mm adaptor. the reason i suggested the tube is b/c i couldn't find any adaptors that are flat on one side allowing it to be flush with the bottom of the case or w/e. you would have to custom make an adapter for that. seeing what you did with the radeon card, i guess you should be able to figure that one out :toast:

but as for fans with the same/slightly better airflow with lower noise...

50mm fan (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835104008)

60mm fan (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114064)

they actually move a little more air but they're still quiter

[Lazzer408]

that power supply doesn't look like it has enough power on the 12v rail only 7a on each rail.

I ran it off a 300w before without a problem. A 65w cpu would draw 5.41a off a 12v rail, 13a off a 5v rail, or 19.69a off a 3.3v rail. I'm going to guess it runs off the 12v to keep the current down. The motherboard then provides 1.27v to the cpu. At 1.27v it's 51.81a. :twitch: Crazy. When I tested the 4750, I only saw it spike 7a once. I'd have to look back but I think the average was 3-4a off the 6-pin plus w/e it pulled off the mobo. PSU calculator said 256w with an o/c. Parts should be here Tues. or Wed. then I'll know.

[Lazzer408]

That little guy fits right in there. I haven't heard the fan spin up yet but I haven't load tested it. The air from the fan isn't very warm at all. That's the LCD off to the lower left. I'm tinkering with it now.

EDIT - Totally unacceptable noise level under load. :(

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30520&stc=1&d=1257985955

[Lazzer408]

I'm about ready to can the project. No one makes the hardware with the configuration I need. I can't produce a cost-effective system when I have to manufacture/modify so many parts. I could make it larger but then it'll have a bunch of wasted space inside and defeats the purpose. On the bright side this lcd is kinda cool.

[Polaris573]

May I move this thread to the project logs sub-forum please? It should have been done earlier but it flew under the radar I guess. Since it's been here so long I'll give you the option to leave it here. It's up to you.

[Lazzer408]

May I move this thread to the project logs sub-forum please? It should have been done earlier but it flew under the radar I guess. Since it's been here so long I'll give you the option to leave it here. It's up to you.

Sure thats no problem.

[Cuzza]

I'm about ready to can the project. No one makes the hardware with the configuration I need. I can't produce a cost-effective system when I have to manufacture/modify so many parts. I could make it larger but then it'll have a bunch of wasted space inside and defeats the purpose. On the bright side this lcd is kinda cool.

That's a pity my friend. You've put so much work into this! If you're not going to make several more of them, you'll at least finish one as a one-off special?

[Lazzer408]

That's a pity my friend. You've put so much work into this! If you're not going to make several more of them, you'll at least finish one as a one-off special?

Unfortunatly society limits humanities productivity. Example. One hole is going to cost me $100. 100 holes would cost me $110. Go figure. Keeps the rich man rich and the poor man poor. What does the poor man get? A Dremel and crappy holes not worthy of a retail shelf. Did I mention I'm a perfectionist? Cuzza, I bet I spent 3 hours clicking pixles photoshopping your heatsink. lol

On another note.

For the PSU's power cord, I was going to use a 90-deg pc power connector and route the cable inside to the back of the chassis where it would be soldered to the 3-pin jack I posted a few pics back. This gave the ability for an off-the-shelf psu to be used without the user having to wire anything. Unfortunatly, any off-the-shelf supply that'll fit in this thing is going to have a loud ass fan.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30540&stc=1&d=1258002944

[Lazzer408]

PSU mounted. I need to order the C6 chassis connector for the rear and move the motherboard over a nudge to make room for it.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30551&stc=1&d=1258067197
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30552&stc=1&d=1258067197
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30553&stc=1&d=1258067197

[p_o_s_pc]

nice seems to be a decent fit... just please don't can this project i want to see it play out

[Polaris573]

Yeah don't give up yet. I want to see how it turns out as well. I've been thinking about doing something like this in the next year or two and I'm interested to see how yours turns out.

[erocker]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but wow! Very impressive. Mad engineering skills Lazzer. :toast:

[Lazzer408]

nice seems to be a decent fit... just please don't can this project i want to see it play out

I'll finish the one for sure. Once completed I can better judge mass production costs. The frustration comes from attempting to get the most from the least. Whether that's wattage from a tiny psu or getting heat out of a tiny case. The 'correct' design is the one that works the best with ALL things considered. Solve one problem, create 2 more. It's crazy how something as simple as a pc chassis can get so complicated.

Yeah don't give up yet. I want to see how it turns out as well. I've been thinking about doing something like this in the next year or two and I'm interested to see how yours turns out.

If it turns out well maybe I can sell you one. ;)

I'm a bit late to this thread, but wow! Very impressive. Mad engineering skills Lazzer. :toast:

Thanks. I have the machines to thank too. They do all the work. I just measure and line up the parts. lol

[Geofrancis]

I'll finish the one for sure. Once completed I can better judge mass production costs. The frustration comes from attempting to get the most from the least. Whether that's wattage from a tiny psu or getting heat out of a tiny case. The 'correct' design is the one that works the best with ALL things considered. Solve one problem, create 2 more. It's crazy how something as simple as a pc chassis can get so complicated.



its a pain in the arse tryin to get decent power into a small case but thats the challenge! now you know that no one else in the world has the same computer as you.

[Lazzer408]

I'm changing the harddrive mounting to allow a 2 drive RAID if laptop drives are used.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30555&stc=1&d=1258073435

[Polaris573]

If it turns out well maybe I can sell you one. ;)
l

Nah, sorry but I'm pretty big into the whole do it yourself thing whether it be cars, computers, repairs, etc.

[Lazzer408]

Nah, sorry but I'm pretty big into the whole do it yourself thing whether it be cars, computers, repairs, etc.

No problem. Just offering. Maybe you can grab some ideas off the build. That's why it's public. For those that don't have the ability or equipment to make something like this can still get one if I can price it competitively.

[Cuzza]

I love your paint skills man. What are you gonna do about that noisy PSU fan?

[Lazzer408]

I love your paint skills man. What are you gonna do about that noisy PSU fan?

There's nothing I can do for this supply. At first I was impressed how quiet it was and then the fan came on. :cry: It had no problems powering a fully loaded gpu and cpu but damn, it's a like a cordless vacuum with a full load. It's fan is also out of balance which vibrates the whole chassis. If I make the case just a little bit longer (1/2"~1") I can fit a micro-atx supply in it but by then I might as well just buy a retail case. It's still a consideration. The two matx supplies I messed with were nice and quiet even under heavy load. It sucks that the power supply of all things is the limiting factor but It had been from the start. Once the case is complete some of the noise will be burried but I'm sure I'll hear it gaming.

As far as harddrive mounting. With the motherboard moved over I can't mount the drive(s) like I wanted but it left plenty of room for the rear power connector and opened up airflow to the side case fans. I can actually feel them moving more air.

[Lazzer408]

Hmm... I'm laying this out in CAD to scale. If I make the chassis 12x12x3" I can fit a micro-ATX in the same location if I relocate the optical drive to the other side towards the bottom of the chassis. This wouldn't look all that bad because the LCD would be centered directly above it. I'll put up a pic in a few minutes and get your opinions.

[Lazzer408]

I don't know about that power button but w/e. That's the least of my worries. The supply could pull it's air from the bottom if it has a fan there. There's just enough room for cramming wires too. What do you guys think?

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30562&stc=1&d=1258137400

[Lazzer408]

This is the PSU I picked up tonight. It's single 80mm fan is quiet and runs at a fixed RPM.
380w Output:
+3.3V@15A
+5V@15A
+12V@22A
-12V@0.6A
+5VSB@2.0A

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30573&stc=1&d=1258174475

Here is a somewhat updated drawing to show how the PSU vents into a chamber which prevents it's exhaust from entering the rest of the chassis.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30574&stc=1&d=1258174568

[p_o_s_pc]

There's nothing I can do for this supply. At first I was impressed how quiet it was and then the fan came on. :cry: It had no problems powering a fully loaded gpu and cpu but damn, it's a like a cordless vacuum with a full load. It's fan is also out of balance which vibrates the whole chassis. If I make the case just a little bit longer (1/2"~1") I can fit a micro-atx supply in it but by then I might as well just buy a retail case. It's still a consideration. The two matx supplies I messed with were nice and quiet even under heavy load. It sucks that the power supply of all things is the limiting factor but It had been from the start. Once the case is complete some of the noise will be burried but I'm sure I'll hear it gaming.

As far as harddrive mounting. With the motherboard moved over I can't mount the drive(s) like I wanted but it left plenty of room for the rear power connector and opened up airflow to the side case fans. I can actually feel them moving more air.

why not replace the fan with one that doesn't sound like a vacuum?

[Lazzer408]

why not replace the fan with one that doesn't sound like a vacuum?

It's spinning that fast because of how little air it can move through such a cramped space. It gets pretty toasty with just the fan it has. To use a slower fan would risk overheating.

[p_o_s_pc]

It's spinning that fast because of how little air it can move through such a cramped space. It gets pretty toasty with just the fan it has. To use a slower fan would risk overheating.

consider modding the PSU case to allow better airflow possibly cut out a place for another small fan and run them both on 7v

can i get a link or pics to the PSU so i can see what you are working with

[Lazzer408]

consider modding the PSU case to allow better airflow possibly cut out a place for another small fan and run them both on 7v

can i get a link or pics to the PSU so i can see what you are working with

http://athenapower.us/prohtml/ap-mfatx30.html#productoverview

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338042&cm_re=athena_300w-_-17-338-042-_-Product&guid=d3535142f4274814b9b0d0cc82cb6a8e

Funny that Newegg drops the price $10 the day my review went up. I paid $63.99 on 11/08. :rolleyes:

I mentioned briefly that I was trying to stick with off-the-shelf components as best I could. If a modification was simple enough to do 100 times I'd consider it. I may manufacture a few of these so it's important that I choose common components for the sake of the end user. I can't expect them to buy modified proprietary parts from me, incase of failure, or to use any non-standard components. I started this off making MAJOR modifications to power supplies in attempts to cram one in that G-Atlantic chassis. After all that trial and error I was better off designing my own chassis. I'm trying to keep it as small as I can without compromising thermal management and reliability, or adding complexity and expense.

I most definitely appreciate any and all input and advice I can get. :toast:

[Lazzer408]

A couple layout pics. Optical drive moved to left side. PSU intake through bottom, outlet through right side vents and isolated from the rest of the system by the panel with a gromet for the power cord. In the first pic you can see the area between the psu and optical drive where the cords have to be crammed. In the second picture you can see the mATX supply only hangs over the edge about 3/4". That's how much deeper the chassis will have to be. I have the room to mount the power buttons/leds on the right side of the front panel. That would balance out the front look rather then leave the one side plain.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30575&stc=1&d=1258184690

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30576&stc=1&d=1258184707

[Lazzer408]

Awe no new comments? I think you guys are getting bored with it. lol

[craigbru]

Hey, I'll comment. I love the work you've done so far. SFF rigs are what I live for, and I like seeing someone else's take on it. Keep it up man!

[MKmods]

-WARNING- This project involves working with LETHAL voltages! Do NOT open your power supply without proper training and knowledge.
I :laugh: when I saw this as it reminded me of when I first started modding PSs.. I was so proud of my design I sent a pict of it to PC Power & Cooling expecting them to be blown away like I was....

They replied with a very serious email "DO NOT OPEN THE PS, ITS DANGEROUS" :laugh:

(Honestly how I grew up is a shock every now and then is a good teacher for being careful)

I really enjoy watching this log, after mon I will have more time to goof off and browse more.

[pantherx12]

Pfft i've had 240 volts and 13 amps go through my tongue.

How much can the caps store up in power supplies?

Its not anything like their entire rated wattage and amperage is it?

[p_o_s_pc]

the only problem i could see with the cord between the panel and bottom would be if it had to be replaced for some reason...how would someone go about doing that?

[pantherx12]

Offer a free repair service for simple jobs! :D

[MKmods]

Pfft i've had 240 volts and 13 amps go through my tongue.

How much can the caps store up in power supplies?

Its not anything like their entire rated wattage and amperage is it?

enough to kill you if ur not careful.(so be careful)

But if there are small kids anywhere around your house be REALLY careful, If we kill/mame our selfs its one thing but if someone else is injured that sucks and ur going to hell.

[pantherx12]

Enough to kill me eh?

Suppose I'm pretty lucky I've had them zap my fingers pretty badly, just left burns on finger tips mind you.


True about children though, safety first TPU.

[p_o_s_pc]

its funny you guys talk about PSUs zapping you when i haven't had that happen yet*knock on wood*

but that could be because i leave them unplugged for a few days or weeks before i get around to doing anything with them.

[MKmods]

the shock can stop ur heart (not likely just a possibility) It can cause you to jerk back and cut urself, fall over , hit ur head etc...
For me every shock makes me a bit more careful the next time.

I have yet to be shocked by a computer part (mostly home/industrial wiring shocks for me)

[p_o_s_pc]

the shock can stop ur heart (not likely just a possibility) It can cause you to jerk back and cut urself, fall over , hit ur head etc...
For me every shock makes me a bit more careful the next time.

i almost make myself freakout when i'm messing with a PSU so i am extra careful and so far its paid off. The reason for me trying to be so careful is for the reasons you just posted :toast:

[Lazzer408]

the only problem i could see with the cord between the panel and bottom would be if it had to be replaced for some reason...how would someone go about doing that?

The bracket that holds the psu to the chassis will be notched so that the cord just slides out of the notch once the top cover is removed. The wire all the way to the PSU doesn't have to be 6 feet long with an AC plug on the end. It could run from the psu to a jack on the back of the chassis where an AC cord could then be externally connected.

EDIT - Something like this. I ran out of gromets so I just cut a slit at the bottom for now. The bottom of the chassis was extended by welding on 1" pieces. Tacky but this is just a mock-up.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30590&stc=1&d=1258249554

[Geofrancis]

how the project going ive not seen any updates in a while.

[Lazzer408]

Not much going on with it. The m-atx supply runs it just fine. It's quiet.

What started off as a rocket fast little gaming itx build only wound up obnoxiously noisy because manufactures can't correctly state specifications like the output to noise curve on a power supply. Due to the lack of any quality components it'll never be anything special. It's not worth it to me to have to make things like a low profile heatsink. I can't imagine I'm the only one who wants a small computer but when I start looking up specs on existing products I find nothing I can use. It keeps getting bigger, defeting the purpose. 12x12x3" is what it wound up at. It'll be a one-off project sitting on the shelf like so many others. I don't really have a use for it. I'm pretty self-defeting when it comes to building things because I keep comparing my work to retail products. This will never "look cool" or wind up on a retail shelf. I just don't have the machinery required. If I had the tools I'd blow your mind with what can be done. Unfortunatly we're all eating from corporate hands with only financial agendas.

[Geofrancis]

thats a bummer i thought we were going to see a finished custom pc that goes like stink. ah well im still waiting for a bit of plastic for my build before i can get anything else done to it. got my 4850 working again tho so im just testing it out with some cod4.

[roast]

Not much going on with it. The m-atx supply runs it just fine. It's quiet.

What started off as a rocket fast little gaming itx build only wound up obnoxiously noisy because manufactures can't correctly state specifications like the output to noise curve on a power supply. Due to the lack of any quality components it'll never be anything special. It's not worth it to me to have to make things like a low profile heatsink. I can't imagine I'm the only one who wants a small computer but when I start looking up specs on existing products I find nothing I can use. It keeps getting bigger, defeting the purpose. 12x12x3" is what it wound up at. It'll be a one-off project sitting on the shelf like so many others. I don't really have a use for it. I'm pretty self-defeting when it comes to building things because I keep comparing my work to retail products. This will never "look cool" or wind up on a retail shelf. I just don't have the machinery required. If I had the tools I'd blow your mind with what can be done. Unfortunatly we're all eating from corporate hands with only financial agendas.


I totally understand.

I like how this build is going though, dont give up! I've been following it for quite a while, I'm interested in doing a mini-itx build myself, so I have learned a bit here.

Redesign the whole thing if you have to. If noise is a concern, why not get triangular foam padding to insulate the noise?
On an old build of mine, the chipset fan was ridiculously loud - I insulated the whole case with bubble wrap and it worked a treat. Only increased temps by 1-2C.

Even with the size, redesign and start from the ground up, again. It would be a shame to see this build die, even if you have to resort to a hammer and chisel to get it done!

[envador]

Not much going on with it. The m-atx supply runs it just fine. It's quiet.

What started off as a rocket fast little gaming itx build only wound up obnoxiously noisy because manufactures can't correctly state specifications like the output to noise curve on a power supply. Due to the lack of any quality components it'll never be anything special. It's not worth it to me to have to make things like a low profile heatsink. I can't imagine I'm the only one who wants a small computer but when I start looking up specs on existing products I find nothing I can use. It keeps getting bigger, defeting the purpose. 12x12x3" is what it wound up at. It'll be a one-off project sitting on the shelf like so many others. I don't really have a use for it. I'm pretty self-defeting when it comes to building things because I keep comparing my work to retail products. This will never "look cool" or wind up on a retail shelf. I just don't have the machinery required. If I had the tools I'd blow your mind with what can be done. Unfortunatly we're all eating from corporate hands with only financial agendas.

Lazzer, DO NOT GIVE UP! You have all the tools and skills required... more than what I had back when I was still modding. Most of my projects were done with a dremel, tin snips, a file and pliers. You've got some great ideas and can really execute. The duct for the CPU fan is really innovative.

I actually stumbled upon TPU and your posting when trying to find fan noise information about the SPI300F4BB ... also, thanks for the posting the review of that Athena AP-MFATX30 PSU. I'll steer clear. I guess I can only assume the SPI300F4BB is going to be just as noisy... both are 80PLUS certified which is what I want since the PSU is going to be put into an always-on HTPC.

So anyway, my HTPC is my DialupPC (http://www.envador.com/cases/Dialup/) that I made a while back. I needed a new PSU for my DialupPC . I upgraded the guts a few months ago to a core 2 duo E8400 and an itx board. You see the PSU in my pics? That's the power supply I ripped out of an old Shuttle XPC box. It's strikingly similar to the SPI300F4BB and AP-MFATX30. And yes, it got NOISY when under load. Why is nothing ever perfect?

Well, back in 2006/2007 (i think) I got this external power brick PSU: http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-150-XT ... It was enough to power the P4 2.0Ghz that was in DialupPC at the time. Totally silenced my HTPC. Sometimes the little fan in the external brick kicked in, but it was pretty quiet.

I figure it's been a good 3 years and since DialupPC's board is out for RMA, I might as well replace the PSU (since I'm not sure whether my picoPSU is dying and if that caused the my motherboard to die).

My choice is either to get another picoPSU combo or maaaaybe THIS! --> http://www.idotpc.com/thestore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=67&idproduct=831 ... It's the SPI 120GNF and it's fanless. 120Watts though, so maybe if you're driving a gaming card it won't work out.

For comparison, it looks like the picoPSUs are available in up to 150watts.

Anyway, I'm going to keep watching this thread for sure! Rooting for ya.

[Lazzer408]

~Still tinkering~

I spent the last couple months in Michigan and didn't get much done on the mini but I did find a couple of fans I'm testing. This blower-style fan also serves as my duct, blowing the hot air out the back of the case. At least this way there's no CPU heat being blown into the chassis.

Idle - 37c
Load - 69c

That is acceptable in my book for an E6750@3ghz.

The Intel heatsink has a big copper slug in the center that's ~1.5" in diameter. The opening in this blower is only ~2.16" so there's only about 3/8" gap left for airflow. I'm ordering a 1U copper heatsink tonight that would allow the entire opening of the fan to be exposed to fin. That should help alot plus the fact it's copper. We shall see. :D

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33326&stc=1&d=1266297372
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33327&stc=1&d=1266297381

[Chicken Patty]

good stuff lazzer, really like that blower style fan. :toast:

[Lazzer408]

good stuff lazzer, really like that blower style fan. :toast:

Thanks CP. I have another blower that's a bit thicker. The one shown is ~.85" and the other one I have is ~1.5". The top of the CPU to the top of the chassis is only ~2" so that leaves me ~.5" for base/fin of a heatsink if I use the big blower. Too bad too. It's alot quieter with more flow then the skinny one.

Does anyone have a ref. HD4870 fan cheap?

[Chicken Patty]

Thanks CP. I have another blower that's a bit thicker. The one shown is ~.85" and the other one I have is ~1.5". The top of the CPU to the top of the chassis is only ~2" so that leaves me ~.5" for base/fin of a heatsink if I use the big blower. Too bad too. It's alot quieter with more flow then the skinny one.

Does anyone have a ref. HD4870 fan cheap?

Not me, no fan here.

BTW, you have any ideas to use the thicker blower, or it just won't work period?

[Lazzer408]

Not me, no fan here.

BTW, you have any ideas to use the thicker blower, or it just won't work period?

If I use the thicker one I'll only have .5" between it and the cpu. I can't fit much of a heatsink in .5". It'll take 6000rpm to keep that cool. I think the skinny one will work much better with the copper heatsink. The copper heatsink is 1", plus .85" for the blower, and I have .15" left out of 2" total height to fit it. Remember I'm craming HD5870/Q9550 overclocked gaming rig into a 12x12x2.5" chassis with a 450w PSU. lol This isn't easy. :D

EDIT - copper heatsink ordered. 92x90mm 20mm fins. 25mm total height. Hope it works well with the blower.

[Lazzer408]

Not the heatsink I'm waiting for from ebay but I found this one locally. About 30+ minutes on the belt sander to take the folds off and expose the fin. Works the same as the large stock Intel, both using the small blower, but this heatsink will fit a chassis height of 2.5". :D I have more options to test so keep watching.

Idle - 37c
Load - 69c

Before:
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33388&stc=1&d=1266459583

After:
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33389&stc=1&d=1266459712

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33390&stc=1&d=1266459851

[Chicken Patty]

that's not bad at all for temps. Like the new sink. Looking forward to seeing the ebay one in work :toast:

[brandonwh64]

Hmmm that is a good idea with the blower! does that board take the high quad 775s?

[Lazzer408]

Same heatsink using a 80x15mm thin fan. Works great as long as the top of the chassis is off. I could even fit a 92x15mm fan in there but once the cover is on I run into the same problem with the fan being choked and load temp climbs to >70c. The blower is probably going to be my best bet. I need to get a proper blower though. The one I'm using is just a cheap pci slot blower.

The LAST option to try is a 1.5U or 2U passive heatsink with the chassis fans reversed to blow inward directly through the heatsink.

Idle - 34c
Load - 59c (10c less)

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33392&stc=1&d=1266461104

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33393&stc=1&d=1266461214

[Lazzer408]

Hmmm that is a good idea with the blower! does that board take the high quad 775s?

Yes it'll support the Quads. :rockout:

[[Ion]]

If you can find one of the SFF LGA755 Dells, I pulled a blower out of one of those. It may be too big for this application, but I used mine in my SFF rig (substantially taller, but with the same mobo and a copper-core C2Q HSF) on my Q9400 and it kept temps reasonable...not sure exactly but it was under 60c

[Lazzer408]

;1769471']If you can find one of the SFF LGA755 Dells, I pulled a blower out of one of those. It may be too big for this application, but I used mine in my SFF rig (substantially taller, but with the same mobo and a copper-core C2Q HSF) on my Q9400 and it kept temps reasonable...not sure exactly but it was under 60c

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=dell+blower&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Which one?

[[Ion]]

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=dell+blower&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Which one?

I used this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-CPU-Blower-Fan-9G180-JMC-Datech-DB9733-12HBTL_W0QQitemZ200427253424QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2eaa652eb0) and this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-DATECH-T2607-CPU-Blower-Fan-DB1373-312VHBPA-GX280_W0QQitemZ200378125462QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea7778c96), the second kept it a couple degrees cooler, and was also marginally quieter. Either worked though

[Lazzer408]

;1769566']I used this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-CPU-Blower-Fan-9G180-JMC-Datech-DB9733-12HBTL_W0QQitemZ200427253424QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2eaa652eb0) and this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-DATECH-T2607-CPU-Blower-Fan-DB1373-312VHBPA-GX280_W0QQitemZ200378125462QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea7778c96), the second kept it a couple degrees cooler, and was also marginally quieter. Either worked though

Either have PWM? Looks like the second one did. How thick is it and how large is the opening?

[[Ion]]

Either have PWM? Looks like the second one did. How thick is it and how large is the opening?

The second one has PWM, the first one doesn't. I'm not sure if I even have either of them, I'll dig around tomorrow and if I can find one of them to get a measurement for you :toast:

[Lazzer408]

;1769572']The second one has PWM, the first one doesn't. I'm not sure if I even have either of them, I'll dig around tomorrow and if I can find one of them to get a measurement for you :toast:

Found it...

* Application: Server & Storage Equipment
* PWM Fuction: 2.05A avg, 3.2A peak,
* Fan Dimension: 137 (L) x 94(W) x 33(H)mm
* PWM Signal duty cycle Speed: 0-20% 1000RPM, 100% 5750RPM
* Rated Voltage: DC 12V
* Max. Air Flower:48 CFM

[Lazzer408]

I bought one for $10. I'll let you know how it works out.

[Lazzer408]

The solid copper skived-fin heatsink from ebay arived today. Dynatron P12G. $29 shipped.

Dimension: 90 x 92 x 26.5 mm.
Pitch: 1.5 mm.
Thickness of fin: 0.5 mm.
Number of fins: 46.
Height of fin: 20 mm.
Height of base: 2.3 mm.
Length of base: 92 mm.

Here's the results again using the small blower.

Idle - 35c (was 37c)
Load - 64c (was 69c)

That's looking a bit better. Can't beat solid copper. The fin density is lower and the physical size is a little bit smaller but it's performing better. The first one was bumping the chipset heatsink but that isn't a problem with this one.

Here's a shot of the two side by side and a shot of the bottom of the first heatsink. You can see the fins on the new heatsink are fewer but thicker. I'm sure the thicker fin helps pull the heat from the base more quickly.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33495&stc=1&d=1266605886
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33496&stc=1&d=1266605917

[Chicken Patty]

So looks like this one is a winner :toast:

[Lazzer408]

This may be helpfull for others looking for a good SFF Socket 775 solution. The Dynatron P12G, with an 80x15mm thin fan, managed these impressive numbers.

Idle - 28c
Load - 52c

Remember this is with an E6750 2.66@3.0

The fan is a Best Cooler sb8015m12s-n. I can't find any information on this fan. It's just a 2-wire generic China fan and always runs full speed. It is quieter then the Stock Intel cooler but could be heard across a quiet room. If the CPU is ever at full load I doubt your in a quiet room.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33498&stc=1&d=1266607474

[Chicken Patty]

Awesome stuff lazed, thanks for all the info :toast:

[Lazzer408]

For shits and giggles I'm going to make a duct out of a cereal box just to see if the two case fans can keep it cool. Combined they move more CFM then a single 80x15mm and it would eliminate one fan in the system.

Awesome stuff lazed, thanks for all the info :toast:

Not a problem CP. I'm glad someone comments now and then.

[xrealm20]

awesome work Laz, I hope to see your itx all finished up --

/sub'd

[Lazzer408]

One solution found. :rockout: Twin 60mm and a duct work great. I have some plastic somewhere to do it right. The cardboard is a bit leaky. :rolleyes: I can probably expect a degree or two less once everything is notched out to fit. It's hotter blowing out because it's sucking some heat off the toasty northbridge but it will work that way and stay below 70c.

The only thing left to try is the Dell blower but I think the housing is too wide.

EDIT - I'll probably pick up a set of these PWM fans. 2 will get me >50cfm with PWM on high. I'll also find out how well the mobo's 4-pin can drive parallel PWM fans. One will need the tach lead removed ofcorse.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6158/fan-329/Cooljag_Everflow_60mm_x_15mm_PWM_Fan_126015BU.html ?tl=g36c365s947&id=MGu7vrr6

Blowing in:
Idle - 29
Load - 55

Blowing out:
Idle - 38
Load - 66

EDIT - adjusted the angle on the duct to move it away from the fans. (blowing out)
Idle - 33c
Load - 60c

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33500&stc=1&d=1266614776
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33501&stc=1&d=1266614783

[Lazzer408]

Things like this really bother me. Here's a nice 400w 'claimed silent' supply that would be prefect but someone dropped the ball with the breakout. Does a m-atx really have the room to stuff a breakout like that? Nope. Could have been a good choice but...

http://www.acousticpc.com/images/a_silenx_micro_atx_psu_lg_lite_pic.jpg

[Chicken Patty]

For shits and giggles I'm going to make a duct out of a cereal box just to see if the two case fans can keep it cool. Combined they move more CFM then a single 80x15mm and it would eliminate one fan in the system.



Not a problem CP. I'm glad someone comments now and then.

Things like this really bother me. Here's a nice 400w 'claimed silent' supply that would be prefect but someone dropped the ball with the breakout. Does a m-atx really have the room to stuff a breakout like that? Nope. Could have been a good choice but...

http://www.acousticpc.com/images/a_silenx_micro_atx_psu_lg_lite_pic.jpg


Looks like blowing in is a winner, those are mighty fine temps for been such a small case. Your persitance has paid off bro :toast:

That PSU looks like it has too much cabling, is there a PSU made for ITX builds? Like hardly any length in the wires?

[Lazzer408]

Looks like blowing in is a winner, those are mighty fine temps for been such a small case. Your persitance has paid off bro :toast:

That PSU looks like it has too much cabling, is there a PSU made for ITX builds? Like hardly any length in the wires?

You would think. :confused: It's almost as if there's a higher power at work blocking my progress. Corporate I'm sure. I think -someone- just doesn't want high power SFF computers. As if -someone- is pulling strings to keep PC gaming in the tower and console gaming where it is. The same reason the Xbox's don't run Windows software. The hardware can do it but their software limits it.

Thermaltake, Coolermaster, whoever, could easily do what I'm doing and there's a market for it. They just don't/won't/can't do it. The TT Mozart Sx was the closest thing but it's 18.5 x 17.3 x 3.5" 1120cu-in. :eek: I'm sitting at 12 x 12 x 2.5" 360cu-in. :cool:

The downside to blowing in is the heat gets trapped in the case and winds up getting sucked into the videocard. Whatever solution I use must blow outward. Blowing out on the CPU right side causes cool air to be brought in on the left side. The GPU will recieve that cool air first.

[Lazzer408]

I wanted to see how well that little 80x15mm fan worked on the new heatsink (post 332) but with the top of the fan close to the "cover".

Idle - 32
Load - 64c

Without the blockage it was 28c/52c

I might just stick with that for simplicity sake. I can even fit a 92x15mm fan on it and the screw holes would land on an area of the heatsink that I can drill and tap. 92x15mm PWM fans are hard to find though. I know one of the Shuttle cases use it. The 92mm fan should take the temp down a nudge.

To solve the PWM problem... The second pic is a schematic that -should- allow many fans to run in parallel, including my case fans. The key to using a mosfet is to use a logic-level device. Intel specifications call for 5v max on the PWM pin. A logic-level mosfet, pull-up resistor, and 5v zener solve that problem. I have to update the 4-pin to 3-pin thread with the new mosfet-based schematic.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33518&stc=1&d=1266637909
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33525&stc=1&d=1266642793

[xBruce88x]

lookin good, nice to see some updates on this build!

that will make a great lan party rig lol (very portable)

[Lazzer408]

The PWM circuit works great BUT it squeels like a pig. The switching frequency off the motherboard's PWM is too low. Intel specs require 21khz-25khz (inaudible). My board is around 15khz (audible). Should I call Zotec and bitch at someone? Maybe they can fix it in a BIOS update. Other then that the fan control works great.

I sent them an email. I'll call them Monday and ream them out.

[mmm995]

awesome project :D

I dont know if your case fit but i can recomend a nice psu
X-SPICE KIRA 530W its normal ATX.... , BUT its very short psu with 120mm fan and runs very warm and silent
also you can replace fan for slim 12mm scythe + throw case and you will save abotu 20mm about

or maybe use 60mm fans on sides :D

[Lazzer408]

awesome project :D

I dont know if your case fit but i can recomend a nice psu
X-SPICE KIRA 530W its normal ATX.... , BUT its very short psu with 120mm fan and runs very warm and silent
also you can replace fan for slim 12mm scythe + throw case and you will save abotu 20mm about

or maybe use 60mm fans on sides :D

I can't fix an ATX supply in 2-1/2"

[mmm995]

atx psu is 85mm tall ;)
2-1/2" = 63mm

kira has 120x25mm fan so without fan will be 60mm so wihtout case and fans on side will fit ;)
I guess

[Lazzer408]

atx psu is 85mm tall ;)
2-1/2" = 63mm

kira has 120x25mm fan so without fan will be 60mm so wihtout case and fans on side will fit ;)
I guess

The width will increase the depth of my chassis as well. I'm trying to avoid as much custom modding as I can. I think I found a PSU (380w) that seems to be holding up well under full load and not very hot either. "Safely warm" suits it well. This supply does take it's air in from the bottom which I'm not too thrilled about. If I can I'd like to find a nice quiet mATX PSU with single or dual dual 60mm fans to avoid the hole in the bottom of the chassis.

Something like this.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338038

http://www.plinkusa.net/products/AP-MP4ATX55FEP8-1.jpg

[xBruce88x]

what about this one...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338009

[Lazzer408]

what about this one...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338009

Dimensions 5.75”(W) x 3.25”(H) x 4”(D) It's an ATX rear footprint but shorter. No-go.

[Lazzer408]

Bruce you may like this as it's testing your suggestion of this fan.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835119067

How many ways can I skin a cat? I'm sort of bent on a 'suck through' blower-style CPU cooler. The reason being is that ALL of the CPU's heat gets blown out of the chassis. I have one Dell blower on the way but in the mean time... Here is yet another cpu cooler design using a standard 90mm fan with 1/2 the outer frame cut out. A cardboard shroud is glued on to make it function like a blower-style fan. It's not an ideal centrifugal fan but it does work. I should mention this isn't a very fast fan either. Not too bad really. :)

Idle - 39
Load - 65

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33562&stc=1&d=1266736377
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33563&stc=1&d=1266736382
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33564&stc=1&d=1266736388

[Solaris17]

This is awesome.

[Chicken Patty]

I love how he uses cardboard to his advantage :laugh: Great job Lazzer! :toast:

[Lazzer408]

I love how he uses cardboard to his advantage :laugh: Great job Lazzer! :toast:

It's fast and easy to make a simple ducts for "testing purposes". :D

[Lazzer408]

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33525&stc=1&d=1266642793
Something dawned on me about this. I bet switching the low side like this is going to screw up the tach. :confused:

[Chicken Patty]

It's fast and easy to make a simple ducts for "testing purposes". :D

As long as it works :toast:

[Lazzer408]

My little 60mm buddies showed up today. :D

These 60mm fans are my new case fans. They have PWM control. :rockout:

I ordered some 4-pin Y cables from Newegg so the CPU fan header can control these case fans as well. Since the PSU and GPU both vent externally, the only thing in the case making any significant heat is the NB and the CPU. If the CPU is hot the cpu fan and case fans will both throttle up.

A few posts back I made a duct that uses the case fans blowing in to cool the CPU. I still want to try that again using these fans and DAMN can they move some air at full speed but might be a little too noisy to be the only CPU fans.

Rated Speed: 5400 RPM (max)
Max Air Flow: 26.83 CFM

Combined 53.66 cfm but LOUD.

EDIT - One of these sitting on the CPU heatsink can maintain 56-57c PWM cycling between 50 and 75% so maybe they will work as the only CPU fans. I'll find out soon enough.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33625&stc=1&d=1266870804

[xrealm20]

How loud are those 60mm fans at 50% load?

I remember having some 60mm delta fans that ran at like 9k rpm. Moved an insane amout of air, but damn they were very loud...

[Lazzer408]

How loud are those 60mm fans at 50% load?

I remember having some 60mm delta fans that ran at like 9k rpm. Moved an insane amout of air, but damn they were very loud...

Good question. I really have no way to measure it here but here's my opinions.
25% it's silent. Can't hear it across the room.
50% it's still very quiet. You wouldn't hear it over the TV at a low volume.
75% you would just hear it across the room but not with TV on low volume.
100% you will definitly hear it across the room with the TV on, unless your cranking a movie or some music. The 4850 at 100% is louder.

I have a ton of options I'm throwing at cooling. I'm sure your all saying "Pick one and finish it already!" :D I'm trying to balance cost, cooling performance, and noise level. I'd rather have a max of 65c that I can't hear then a 55c I can. I also want PWM control so it's up to the end user to configure the BIOS settings for PWM. So far the 'suck through blower' with PWM control is the best at everything. I have 2 blowers coming this week to try. In the mean time I'm trying a blower off an bricked EVGA 8800 to see how the PWM works with a blower.

EVGA blower BIOS PWM control set to 55c. Won't hit 100% until >65c
Idle - 55 (silent)
Load - 62-65 PWM cycling between 25 and 50% (wouldn't hear it over the 4850)

EVGA blower BIOS forced to 100%
Idle - 36
Load - 58

Lots of overhead for (more) overclocking. I need to get the E6750 out and stick a Q9550 in there.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33629&stc=1&d=1266874585
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33630&stc=1&d=1266874592

[Lazzer408]

How loud are those 60mm fans at 50% load?

I remember having some 60mm delta fans that ran at like 9k rpm. Moved an insane amout of air, but damn they were very loud...

Here's the fan specs for the PWM 60s
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6158/fan-329/Cooljag_Everflow_60mm_x_15mm_PWM_Fan_126015BU.html ?tl=g36c365s947

Cooljag Everflow 60mm x 15mm PWM Fan (126015BU) $9.99

Weight: 40g
Housing Material: UL 94V-O Plastic
Impeller Material: UL 94V-O Plastic
Protection: Current Limit / Impedance
Operating Temp: -10 - 70°C
Model: R126015BU
Rated Voltage: 12V
Operating Voltage Range: 7 ~ 13.2V
Rated Current: 0.40A
Rated Input Power: 4.80W
Rated Speed: 5400 RPM
Max Air Flow: 26.83 CFM
0.76 m^3/min
Max Static Pressure: 5.20 mmH2O
Sound Level: 37.0 dBA

[Lazzer408]

Tomorrow (or later today since it's 2am already) I'm going to grab a Q9550 and see what I can get out of it. One of the two PWM blowers I ordered should be here as well as my 4pin Y cables.

[Lazzer408]

One blower came. This is a 25mm thick blower that is standard production from NMB. It will fit the chassis and I like the performance. It's loud when it's 100% but it won't need to run that fast to keep the CPU cool. It's just nice to have the overhead for things like dust in the heatsink or a customer installs the system where's there's poor ventilation or in a warmer climate.

Idle - 34c
Load - 52c

Definitely a win here. Great fit to.

EDIT - I put a manual controller on this fan just to make it silent and tested again. Load = 64c

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33704&stc=1&d=1267046659
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33705&stc=1&d=1267046665

[Lazzer408]

Got the Q9550. :rockout: Testing now @ 3ghz

At the moment the new blower at 100% gets me...

Idle - 41, 39, 39, 36c
Load - 64, 59c, 58, 59c

The E6600 cores had only 1-2c difference between cores but this one varies alot more so I posted them all.

EDIT - Upgraded the hdd to a WD 750gb RE series.

Sequential read-112mb/s write-99.6mb/s
Random read-54.63mb/s write-81.45mb/s
Random read 4kb read-.841mb/s write-2.346

That drive along with the Q9550 and damn is this thing zippy for a SFF.

Windows 7 32bit (clean install/AVG/all updates and drivers)
Startup to desktop - 28sec
Shutdown to off - 7sec.

3dMark06/Vantage numbers coming soon.

EDIT - 3dMark06
Q9550@3ghz
HD4850 - 13,292
HD4870 - 14,899

Vantage
4870 - 9784
GPU - 9168
CPU - 12255

[Lazzer408]

4 to 3 adaptor works great.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33733&stc=1&d=1267162375

[Cuzza]

hey lazzer, i haven't been round here much lately but good to see you are still going with all this. blower fans are the way forward!

[Lazzer408]

hey lazzer, i haven't been round here much lately but good to see you are still going with all this. blower fans are the way forward!

Hey cuzza how's it going?! :toast: How's your little build doing? Did you find a working solution for your cooling issues?

[Cuzza]

I think the plan I have will work, but I haven't got around to implementing it. I have recently started teacher's college which meant moving out of town, I don't have a permanent place to live here yet so most of my stuff is in storage at my dad's house where I can't work on it! That will change soon, but my workload for college is pretty big right now so we'll see what I can get done.

[Lazzer408]

I think the plan I have will work, but I haven't got around to implementing it. I have recently started teacher's college which meant moving out of town, I don't have a permanent place to live here yet so most of my stuff is in storage at my dad's house where I can't work on it! That will change soon, but my workload for college is pretty big right now so we'll see what I can get done.

I hear ya. Good luck.

[PVTCaboose1337]

Did you make your own 4 -> 3 adapter or did you buy it?

[Lazzer408]

Did you make your own 4 -> 3 adapter or did you buy it?

Made it.

[Lazzer408]

Nothing to update. I just picked up a '04 WRX so I'm a bit distracted. :D

[Chicken Patty]

Nothing to update. I just picked up a '04 WRX so I'm a bit distracted. :D

uhhh PM me some pics, love those cars :D

I say PM so you keep this on topic, but I don't mind if you post them here neither :toast:

[Thrackan]

One solution found. :rockout: Twin 60mm and a duct work great. I have some plastic somewhere to do it right. The cardboard is a bit leaky. :rolleyes: I can probably expect a degree or two less once everything is notched out to fit. It's hotter blowing out because it's sucking some heat off the toasty northbridge but it will work that way and stay below 70c.

The only thing left to try is the Dell blower but I think the housing is too wide.

EDIT - I'll probably pick up a set of these PWM fans. 2 will get me >50cfm with PWM on high. I'll also find out how well the mobo's 4-pin can drive parallel PWM fans. One will need the tach lead removed ofcorse.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6158/fan-329/Cooljag_Everflow_60mm_x_15mm_PWM_Fan_126015BU.html ?tl=g36c365s947&id=MGu7vrr6

Blowing in:
Idle - 29
Load - 55

Blowing out:
Idle - 38
Load - 66

EDIT - adjusted the angle on the duct to move it away from the fans. (blowing out)
Idle - 33c
Load - 60c

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33500&stc=1&d=1266614776
http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33501&stc=1&d=1266614783

That looks like the Xbox360 system with those fans, the duct and the low heatsink :)

[Lazzer408]

uhhh PM me some pics, love those cars :D

I say PM so you keep this on topic, but I don't mind if you post them here neither :toast:

I hate the boxer 4 Subaru uses. They always sound like they're misfiring. That's why it's getting an H6+boost. :rockout:

CP, hit me up on yahoo messenger. Same sn.

[Lazzer408]

I havent been doing much with this project. I impulsively bought a 96" 2-seat sandrail on a Michigan trip. I've been stuffing a Mazda V6 in it. Calculates out to a 0-60mph in 3.1sec and a 10.4sec 1/4mi. Should be a riot. Plus it's street legal! \:D/

Build found here. http://www.miataturbo.net/subscription.php?do=viewsubscription

In the mean time the little quad build goes in this case. APEX MI-008 Black Steel Mini-ITX Tower Computer Ca... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811154091&cm_re=itx_case-_-11-154-091-_-Product)

[Chicken Patty]

I havent been doing much with this project. I impulsively bought a 96" 2-seat sandrail on a Michigan trip. I've been stuffing a Mazda V6 in it. Calculates out to a 0-60mph in 3.1sec and a 10.4sec 1/4mi. Should be a riot. Plus it's street legal! \:D/

Build found here. http://www.miataturbo.net/subscription.php?do=viewsubscription

In the mean time the little quad build goes in this case. APEX MI-008 Black Steel Mini-ITX Tower Computer Ca... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811154091&cm_re=itx_case-_-11-154-091-_-Product)
damn dude, can't view the link unless I log in, post some pics :D

[Lazzer408]

I yanked out the POS Ford 1.6L and transplanted a Mazda KL-DE V6 into it. I still have some odds and ends to finish up but it should be running soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sv6Xwgm9RA

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/ebaypictures111.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/ebaypictures115.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/ebaypictures121.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/DSCF1342Small-Copy.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/p_00064.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/p_00074.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/p_00068.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa247/lazzer408/p_00067.jpg

[Chicken Patty]

:rockout: That looks hella fun!

[Lazzer408]

Well it's been months! My sheetmetal guy sold his business so that's why this has been on the back burner for so long. I found a new shop that's allowing me access to their scraps and equipment as long as I maintain a couple of their office computers. I've also put some cash aside over the fall/winter so I can dive back into the project now. :D

[Lazzer408]

How's the m-atx industry doing as far as power supplies? I found this one that seems to have some good reviews and specs.
SeaSonic SS-350SFE 350W SFX12V V3.1 80 PLUS Cert... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063&Tpk=N82E16817151063) 36a 12v

There's also KDX who makes OEM supplies.
http://www.directron.com/m7480dmmicro.html 24a 12v
http://www.directron.com/m7520dm.html 30a 12v

The 520 looks promising because of it's 8-pin EPS-12V and also 8-pin pci-e power connectors. Must have a hella 12v rail on it. 30a from what I've been able to find. The Seasonic claims 36a on 12v but it's less expencive.

Do you guys know of any other good m-atx supplies?

The reason I'd like to go with these supplies is because they have 60mm fans. The m-atx psu with the 80mm fan means I have to make an opening in the bottom of the chassis to allow airflow to the psu. That means at least .5 to .75" feet on the bottom of the case.

[Lazzer408]

UPDATES:

I ordered the Zotac GF9300-G-E. The LGA-775 one with 3 SATA ports. If I had an I-series CPU handy I'd have gone with a different model. This build will still use the Q9550 I've been using in the past. I also went with the 480w KDM power supply. http://www.directron.com/m7480dmmicro.html It uses 2 thermally-controlled 60mm fans. Hopefully they are quiet. I wanted to avoid cutting a hole in the bottom of the chassis and having to use large feet to allow airflow under it.

The HDD mount is designed to hold 1x 3.5" or 2x 2.5". A small SSD for the OS and a 500gb laptop spinner would provide plenty of storage for a gaming rig. One can always add an E-SATA or USB external drive for their media library. This mount's design uses rubber gromets to keep the drive isolated from the chassis to reduce noise.

There are now NO CHASSIS FANS! Only the CPU blower, GFX card blower, and 2 60mm in the PSU. All fans are thermally controlled. Each fan vents it's own heat directly out of the chassis. The case vents will be offset from the fans to also help reduce noise.

Prototype #2's base, cover, front and back plates are cut and once the board shows up friday, I can cut the expansion slots and i/o shield holes.

AIRFLOW:

The first fan to get cool inlet air is the GPU. Airflow passes over the harddrive(s) on the way to it so the drive does get some cooling. GPU blows hot air out of the chassis. A barrier down the middle of the chassis then directs remaining airflow towards the front where some is sucked out by the PSU. PSU blows hot air out of the chassis. The airflow continues over the northbridge heatsink then sucked through the CPU heatsink by the CPU blower. CPU blows hot air out of the chassis. No hot air is recirculated inside. I've spent alot of time testing many different configurations and this is an epic win by far.

I know I know... Pics soon.

EDIT - Here is a picture showing airflow through the chassis. The yellow line is the barrier I mentioned. It also serves to hold the riser card. The CPU fan shown is not what I'll be using. I'm using a blower as shown in the second pic. The HD5870 size cards will fit. Who knows if the 480w Micro-ATX can run it. :twitch:

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41019&stc=1&d=1299704738

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41020&stc=1&d=1299704884

[Lazzer408]

I hit up the PSU calculator http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine and put the following.

Mini-ITX motherboard
QX9650@3ghz (I have one to test)
2 sticks DDR-2
HD5870
1 SATA HDD
1 SSD HDD
1 DVD-RW
2 USB devices (mouse/keyboard)
10% capacitor aging
90% system load

The KDM is rated at 480w so it will have to be a high quality PSU to manage the load. I'm sure the system will draw less then 423w unless your crunching.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41025&stc=1&d=1299741889

[Thrackan]

If a 480w PSU can't handle a 400w load it's crap imho... Any PSU should be able to do that.
Unless you're going to be completely stressing both CPU and GPU at the same time, it should not even touch 400w.

[Lazzer408]

If a 480w PSU can't handle a 400w load it's crap imho... Any PSU should be able to do that.
Unless you're going to be completely stressing both CPU and GPU at the same time, it should not even touch 400w.

That's what I figured. I read andand's review of the HD 5870 just to see what their results were. With their DX58SO i7 3.33ghz test rig they managed 401w running the OCCT benchmark. I'm more worried about the noise. That KDM 480 is a 80 PFC supply. It should do fine.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2841/26

If a 480w PSU can't do 480w it's junk. lol

EDIT - I take that back. The 520 has active-PFC but the 480 is "high efficiency" . It doesn't specifically state any active-PFC.

[Thrackan]

Our own TPU (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/28.html) review says ~150w 'peak' and 212w as an absolute max on the 5870.

And noise can be fixed ofc :) Better fan and/or more air holes in the PSU maybe?

[Lazzer408]

Our own TPU (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/28.html) review says ~150w 'peak' and 212w as an absolute max on the 5870.

And noise can be fixed ofc :) Better fan and/or more air holes in the PSU maybe?

It has 2x 60mm fans and you know what a pair of small fans can sound like when they resonate. Everything shows up friday so we'll see. I'm still tempted to pick up a 520w just to compair. The 520 has 2 express power connectors also.

[DrunkenMafia]

FYI

I have a mate who has a shuttle with a 450w psu and it runs a HD5870 fine, has been for about 18 months. He has E8600, 4gb & 2 HDD's.

Good luck with the build Lazzer

[Geofrancis]

good to see the project still going! i have gave up on ITX computers for now. the lack of expandability was starting to get to me. like being stuck with onboard audio :mad: so im onto the micro atx computers again so i can use my 4870 x2 without having to jump through hoops getting specific power supplys and cases then hoping it will all work.

[Lazzer408]

good to see the project still going! i have gave up on ITX computers for now. the lack of expandability was starting to get to me. like being stuck with onboard audio :mad: so im onto the micro atx computers again so i can use my 4870 x2 without having to jump through hoops getting specific power supplys and cases then hoping it will all work.

What's wrong with on-board audio? Hopefully some day I can offer this as a bare-bones. That's why I'm spending so much time sorting things out so the customer doesn't have to. It wouldn't be hard to scale this into a m-ATX platform either. I have given thought to it. My bottom line is to make this as small as I can while maintaining off-the-shelf components. The only thing that's not available, besides the chassis itself, is the CPU fan but a stock low-profile Intel cooler will work ok as long as your not overclocking.

All I managed to finish today was a mock-up for the PSU mount/duct.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41029&stc=1&d=1299784924

[Lazzer408]

Small update:

I didn't like the PSU mounting method so I've altered it. Besides the divider between the videocard and motherboard, I'll also intergrate part of the PSU mount into another divider between the PSU and motherboard. There's a piece of 1/2" angle sticking up in the air. This will become the mount for one side of the power supply. The other side of the PSU will use a similar mounting method attached to the front face. The dividers will be punched full of holes/slots and are not complete and could even hold a small 40~60mm fan inside the chassis to assist circulation.
The first divider I mentioned, between the videocard and motherboard, will hold the 16x PCI-E riser card and is also 1/2 of the hard drive mounting rails. I posted the example I used before of the harddrive mounting. It'll be the bottom 2 examples in the last photo.

I just wanted to throw up a pic to maintain interest. :D

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41046&stc=1&d=1299873075

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41048&stc=1&d=1299873501

[Lazzer408]

Here's some sexy updates.

Hard drive rails isolated from main chassis with grommets. Drive rail is drilled for a single 3.5" but I will be adding a set of holes to mount 2x 2.5" drives. Either will fit.

--------------------------------------
EDIT - FAIL! I think the HDD was to close to the videocard. Depending on the location of the videocard's fan, it could interfere with the airflow. There was only 1/4" between them. I'll have to put the gromets on the drive itself and bolt the rails straight to the chassis. Not a big deal. DVD is now mounted.
--------------------------------------

A PCI-E flex riser was used and hard mounted to the internal structure of the chassis. It has a latch to hold the card edge into the connector and is rock solid.

The motherboard now has it's own chamber. This served as the PCI-E slot mount and should help keep the motherboard and CPU much cooler. The videocard creates a fair amount of heat off it's back that isn't drawn out the by it's fan. I'd like to keep that heat away from the motherboard. I'll put holes in the back of the chassis above the i/o shield for the cpu blower to draw air into the chamber. That will allow only cool air to enter the chamber. Heat from the videocard will be pulled through the chassis and drawn out by the PSU fans.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41063&stc=1&d=1299965930

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41064&stc=1&d=1299965941

[Lazzer408]

My drive rails will not fit in the space I provided when I use grommets. =( In the begining of the 2nd chassis, I reduced it from 12.5" wide to 12" wide. I made it to narrow to mount my drives on grommets. BUT! I had a great idea. If I go back to 12.5 wide I'll have room for USB ports in front on the left side, have my HDD grommets, and here's the sweet part. If I align the drive right, I'll have room for a 2x 2.5" mobile rack in the rear of the chassis below the graphics card for easy drive access without having to remove the cover.

[l0ud_sil3nc3]

very nice thread, I love following mitx builds:rockout:

[Lazzer408]

Thanks. Glad someone is liking it. =)

I ran to Microcenter and picked up a 2x 2.5" mobile rack. It has all the same bolt pattern as a 3.5" drive so either the mobile rack or a 3.5" HDD will fit. The graphics fan looks tight but I can actually fit my thumb in there so it should flow nicely.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41082&stc=1&d=1300058764

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41083&stc=1&d=1300058802

[Lazzer408]

Well cough up another dead board for Zotac! I managed to power this thing up maybe 5 or 6 times and now it's dead. So I guess the whole project comes to a screetching stop until I get an RMA from Schmotac. =(

[Geofrancis]

thats crap man

[Lazzer408]

thats crap man

I know. You ever look at the Newegg reviews on these things? They drop like flies. :banghead:

[stevednmc]

That sux about the mobo! Ive been following this build for a longtime, i cant wait to see the finished product!

[Geofrancis]

have you found a power supply to run it yet? i came across this psu when i was researching a different project.

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/350w-be-quiet-bn134-80-plus-86-eff-sfx-micro-atx

[Lazzer408]

have you found a power supply to run it yet? i came across this psu when i was researching a different project.

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/350w-be-quiet-bn134-80-plus-86-eff-sfx-micro-atx

http://www.directron.com/m7480dmmicro.html

I bought the KDM 480w. So far it runs a Core2Duo and the HD5870 and made it through 3dMark11 with no problems. It runs very cool but the fan controller isn't working. The fans run on high all the time even if the system is idle. It's always blowing cold air so the fans don't need to be running so fast.

[Lazzer408]

It looks like the PCI-E port has stopped functioning. It will post and boot using the on-board video but I've tried 4 PCI-E cards and none of them will post. Tried resetting the BIOS. Tried another power supply. Tried other memory. Notta. I don't think the flex riser would have caused this problem. It worked a few times then quit. Have to RMA the board I guess.

EDIT - I had it working for a little while by setting the BIOS to initialize the PCI-E graphics first. I managed to boot into Windows with the HD5870 installed and run Prime95 for a few minutes to watch temps. It hit 58c. When I closed Prime95, the desktop went black, came back, went black again then locked. I hit reset only to power up with no video. I shut it down and tried the on-board again and it powered up with a black screen. I tried switching the memory and was trying one stick at a time and now it's completely dead. No power at all. Tried another power supply and it's still dead.

Zotac has a horrible reputation for these boards dying. There's I think 3 or 4 versions of the 775 board and they still don't have it right. That's too bad too because there isn't many options for ITX boards that have a PCI-E connector. It was nice to have a cheap ITX 775 board to stick our old hardware into but what good it is if they drop like flies?

I sent Zotac an a$$reaming email. I wonder if they'll respond.

EDIT - Bought another board. Testing now. So far so good but I wonder how long this one will last. :/ New board works but instability when using the flex extention cable. =( I wonder if that's what cause the first board to fail.

[Lazzer408]

:respect: STABILITY! :respect:

The errors with the graphics card detection/initialization/corruption were solved with aluminum duct tape. :D The graphics card is now furmark torture stable. :rockout: (HD5870)

I also started mounting the power supply and bought some mini SATA cables. There's -some- room behind the psu, and above the optical drive, for the bulk of the wiring. I actually need just one molex connector that goes to a diy splitter to feed the mobile rack and the optical drive. I have to clean up the wiring on the PSU but I wasn't done testing it. After all, if it couldn't run the system why hack it up?

You may also notice the PCI-E power connectors stick past the edge of the chassis. I mentioned I was making it 0.5" wider so I'll have plenty of room.

And for the first of many new CPU load tests... My little 1.8ghz C2D test chip managed only 39c after 15min of prime with my blower.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41101&stc=1&d=1300167401
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41102&stc=1&d=1300167439
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41103&stc=1&d=1300167483
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41104&stc=1&d=1300167512

[Lazzer408]

Having delt with a pci-e flex risers problem with interference, I've decided to use a short PCB riser and relocate the graphics card to the bottom of the chassis. I'm using 3/8" rubber feet and placing vents in the chassis bottom for the graphics card to draw air from. The drives are then located above the graphics card which makes them easier to access. Unfortunatly that area can get pretty toasty. To help with that heat, the side vents will be pushed towards the top rear. The air drawn in by the PSU fans will enter there. These changes moved the graphics card over about 0.5" allowing room for the pci-e power connectors so the chassis will not have to be made wider after all. The harddrive mount can now make use of the motherboard partition as one of it's mounts. I'll bend a bracket for the other side.

The pci-e short riser is also $30 less expencive then the flex riser.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41146&stc=1&d=1300293697

[Geofrancis]

Having delt with a pci-e flex risers problem with interference, I've decided to use a short PCB riser and relocate the graphics card to the bottom of the chassis. I'm using 3/8" rubber feet and placing vents in the chassis bottom for the graphics card to draw air from. The drives are then located above the graphics card which makes them easier to access. Unfortunatly that area can get pretty toasty. To help with that heat, the side vents will be pushed towards the top rear. The air drawn in by the PSU fans will enter there. These changes moved the graphics card over about 0.5" allowing room for the pci-e power connectors so the chassis will not have to be made wider after all. The harddrive mount can now make use of the motherboard partition as one of it's mounts. I'll bend a bracket for the other side.

The pci-e short riser is also $30 less expencive then the flex riser.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41146&stc=1&d=1300293697

was it the pci-e flexible riser that was causing all the stabibity problems you were having before? that could explain some of the anomalies i was having when i was using my 4850 on a flexible riser. i always thought it was a power problem because it only happened when my graphics card was in. nice catch tho working that one out

[Lazzer408]

was it the pci-e flexible riser that was causing all the stabibity problems you were having before? that could explain some of the anomalies i was having when i was using my 4850 on a flexible riser. i always thought it was a power problem because it only happened when my graphics card was in. nice catch tho working that one out

The first problem was the graphics card issue that was caused by the flex riser. Sometimes it would post and boot but once Windows loaded the graphics driver it would hang. Other times it would either not detect the card and default to the onboard graphics or not post at all. Shielding the riser's ribbon cables with aluminum tape cured both problems and was 100% Furmark stable. The motherboard finally died after only a few successfull boots. It would be my opinion that those two problems were completely unrelated.

The new board and short riser are working great. I'm currently making the other HDD bracket and the inlet vents in the bottom of the chassis. This is going to work out well. If the other drive rail extends all the way to the front, it can serve to support one side of the optical drive. This leaves enough room on the far left front for a card reader or USB ports. I still have plenty of room for cables and the front display which is now located below the optical drive.

[Lazzer408]

Couple more pics. If it looks like the optical drive is set back, it is. I can take another 3/8" off the front now. I'm hells bent on making this 12x12x3". The back of the case will be removable and with it removed, the graphics card can be removed without having to take anything else off. The hard drive can also be removed without having to take anything else but the top cover off. The optical drive can be removed fairly easily but the PSU has to be lifted up to get to the screws. All in all it's pretty easy to work on.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41164&stc=1&d=1300344675

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41165&stc=1&d=1300344681

[xBruce88x]

lookin sweet so far!