New Motherboard/Memory, Need Advice

[Ketchup]

Hello. This is my first post on this forum, and as such I'd like to say I'm happy to be here. I was a long time (5+ years) member of a forum similar to this one, but I screwed up and apparently there are no second chances. So I found this forum trying to fill that void, and I can say that so far things look good over here. Anyway let me get to the point..

This is what I currently have:
Phenom II x6 1055t
ASRock n68-s UCC
4gb (2x2GB) Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 4-4-4-12 @ DDR2 1066 4-5-5-15
Palit Dual Sonic Radeon 4870
Thermaltake 500w TR2

As you can see this motherboard is weak. The ram is fine for games, and I only expect a few FPS from an upgrade to DDR3, but it kind of comes with the territory of a decent AM3 motherboard.

The reason I'm upgrading is because this ASRock board offers 3 chokes for the CPU/NB. If you know what chokes or phases are then you'll know 3 is not nearly enough to overclock, and barely enough for stable operation at stock frequencies / voltages. So I have decided to get a new motherboard.

This is what I am almost surely going to buy in 2 weeks:

ASUS M4A88TD-V EVO/USB3 AM3 AMD 880G HDMI SATA 6Gb... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131646)
This motherboard has outstanding reviews. It seems to have a decently feature rich BIOS, and best of all it has 8+2 phase power. Which means I can overclock this nice hexa core I just bought. Which is the reason I bought it to begin with...

G.SKILL Flare 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231367)
I LOVE this memory. It looks nice, the timings are great, the frequency is great.
The only thing I'm not loving is that in games at higher resolutions, the difference between DDR3 1333 cl9 and DDR3 1800 cl7 is negligible. As in less than 1 fps. This means I could technically buy some cheaper memory instead of this G.Skill Flare. But ... it wouldn't be as sexy.



So what are your thoughts? What should I do?
Can you think of any other motherboards with good 8+2 phase power at around the same price point? How about the memory?

Thanks in advance,
Ketchup

[AlienIsGOD]

You can't go wrong with G Skill. I recommend a pair of Ripjaws and a 1055T to a friend of mine along with this mobo http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=eCWbkolMf0DOW0IV&templete=2 M4A89GTD PRO/USB3.

Edit: Ya it also has 8+2...

[assaulter_99]

First of all, welcome, its a great community here, you'll love it! Here's hoping you don't "screw up" again! lol. Anyways, it seems you have you mind already set, its looks pretty good, I especially like the ram. You planning going crossfire or are you just going for one card?

[Ketchup]

I'll probably go crossfire with the new ATI Southern Islands cards that are coming out in October.
Until then I'll just use this 4870.

I'm just not sure if I should go for this expensive high performance ram, or get something a little cheaper. I'm not sure if it's going to make a big difference in games.

I forgot to mention that I'm buying a Corsair 750TX power supply this friday (in 2 days).

[assaulter_99]

I'll probably go crossfire with the new ATI Southern Islands cards that are coming out in October.
Until then I'll just use this 4870.

I'm just not sure if I should go for this expensive high performance ram, or get something a little cheaper. I'm not sure if it's going to make a big difference in games.

I forgot to mention that I'm buying a Corsair 750TX power supply this friday (in 2 days).

The reason I'm asking this is this board ain't targeted for the crossfire hardcores out there. It will perform better in a single card setup (1 will kick to x4). And yeah, the corsair is a great buy, it seems to be one of the favourites around here. :toast:

[Ketchup]

Well honestly this 4870 runs everything I need it to run.
I don't even have problems in Starcraft II on Ultra. I think I'll just upgrade to a nice single card solution a month after I buy the Motherboard/Memory.
I'm still not sure if I should save a few $$ and get cheaper ram though.

[pantherx12]

I don't think its necessary to go for expensive ram, look for reviews of 1333mhz and 1600mhz ram that over-clocks like a goodun instead.

It's easy to get some 1333mhz modules to 1800mhz for example. ( I say easy, I mean with some fiddling and perhaps a spare 20 minutes for stability testing etc)

[brandonwh64]

That board you have doesn't look to awe full bad. but yea i would go with a more advanced board for a gaming system. If i was you, i would save that board for a HTPC setup later on.

[Ketchup]

That board you have doesn't look to awe full bad. but yea i would go with a more advanced board for a gaming system. If i was you, i would save that board for a HTPC setup later on.

This is a little confusing. Are you talking about the ASRock board that I currently have?
The problem with this board is described in my original post. This motherboard only has 3 phases for the CPU and NB both. This means that when you demand a lot of power from this system, the voltages will spike or droop, which leads to instability and shutdowns.

The ASUS board I am planning to buy that I linked in my original post is a full featured board. It's loaded with all kinds of good overclocking features, 8+2 phase which is good for stable power, and has good cooling for the NB, SB, and MOSFETs.

The only problem with the ASUS board is that Crossfire isn't a great idea because 1 of the cards would be forced to run at 4x. This isn't an issue because I don't plan to use crossfire.


Hopefully that clears some things up.

What I would really like now is to get some opinions on what you think about DDR3 memory. The difference, to the best of my knowledge, negligible in terms of gaming performance between DDR3 1333 cl9 and DDR3 1800 cl7. The reason for this is probably due to the fact that at high resolutions the GPU is severely bottlenecking the system.

However, I'd like your opinion on it. If you know something about the particular parts that I picked please be sure to let me know. I am all ears, and if I missed something I'll be glad to correct it.


Addendum; I am actually trying to decide if I want the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula instead of the board I linked originally. I like the Crosshair IV Formula board, but it's clear to me that a LOT of people are having contact issues between the NB and the NB cooler which is leading to overheating issues. I do not want to get a shitty board and have to modify it to get it working. Please give me your opinion on both of these.

Thanks,
Ketchup

[pantherx12]

Regarding the crosshair IV grab some hard plastic washers, look at the back of the board where the NB pushpins come through, place the washers on the push pin and press from the other side so the push pin is through the washer and BAM pressure increase that costs diddly squat and takes 20 seconds to do.

Assuming the pushpins are long enough, they generally are.

Edit: foolish me!

Googled images of the board, no push pins, how does it even attach, I can't see screws either.

[Ketchup]

Edit: foolish me!

Googled images of the board, no push pins, how does it even attach, I can't see screws either.


Good question. I don't even see anything on the reverse side of the board that it would mount to. I really want this board but I don't want to have to modify it much to fix it if I get a dud. And if I buy this board the first thing I'll want to do is remove that NB/MOSFET cooler assembly and replace the thermal crap they use with some TX-2.

My total budget is around $450. That's total including shipping.

This is what I want:

ASUS Crosshair IV Formula AM3 AMD 890FX SATA 6Gb/s... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131644)

and

G.SKILL Flare 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231367)

On paper these look like excellent high-end AMD items. Just about the best of the best. The only problem I see is with the Asus Crosshair IV Formula motherboard NB cooler.

I have enough for it. I just don't know if it's worth it. I might get something cheaper that will do the same job. I mean I could save nearly $100 and buy the ASUS board in my original post. I'm just not sure. $400~ is a lot to drop on a motherboard and processor.

[pantherx12]

I can't see any mounting holes for that heatsink at all
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Crosshair-IV-Extreme-is-the-most-hardcore-mobo-based-on-AMD-980FX-chipset-540x360.jpg

Could be the angle of the photograph though, if that is the case, no wonder it doesn't get good contact : /

Scratch that found some more!

http://www.vortez.co.uk/contentteller.php?ct=articles&action=file&id=3389

http://www.vortez.co.uk/contentteller.php?ct=articles&action=file&id=3390

It must attach from the reverse side of the board.

I'll try and find out what I can about how it attaches so you know if its worth grabbing or not!

[Ketchup]

I'd hate to think that ASUS set out to design this amazing motherboard and half-assed it at the end with the cooler.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee347/n00bketchup/asuscrosshair.jpg

It looks like push pins to me. What do you think?

[pantherx12]

Those look like phillips head screws to me ontop of rubber washers, could just be a case of tightening the screws a bit : ]

[Ketchup]

I'm sorry but it still looks like push pins to me. I'd like a 2nd opinion.

Or a 2nd opinion on another motherboard.

[Radical_Edward]

Those are screws, like pantherx12 said.

[cadaveca]

Screws.

Gigabyte GA-890FXA-UD7?

[pantherx12]

If you think about it they couldn't use pushpins from the reverse side anyway, as you wouldn't be able to remove them at all due to the heatsinks.

[entropy13]

Go with a Ripjaws from G.Skill instead, you can save around $30-$40 with only a negligible disadvantage.

[Tatty_One]

To answer your question on DDR3 performance directly, in dual channel there is not a great difference between DDR2 and DDR3, especially in gaming terms, as for your specific point on DDR3 1333mhz CL9 versus DDR3 1800 cl7, yes there is a difference but that difference is felt dependant on what app you are running, in gaming, hardly noticable to be honest.

The Ripjaws already mentioned are a good medium between performance and price and can be tweaked to give most users what they need, if you can get your hands on a kit of crucial "Value" (read no heatspredders) 1333mhz CL9 memory even better, because they are VERY cheap but have Micron D9 chips that will actually run at CL7 @ 1333mhz (or even tighter) or CL9 @ around 1800mhz.

On the motherboard front, I am a lover of gigabyte personally (although I have owned 6 or 7 Asus boards), this ones quite nice for the price.....

GIGABYTE GA-890GPA-UD3H AM3 AMD 890GX HDMI SATA 6G... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128435)

[brandonwh64]

This is a little confusing. Are you talking about the ASRock board that I currently have?
The problem with this board is described in my original post. This motherboard only has 3 phases for the CPU and NB both. This means that when you demand a lot of power from this system, the voltages will spike or droop, which leads to instability and shutdowns.

The ASUS board I am planning to buy that I linked in my original post is a full featured board. It's loaded with all kinds of good overclocking features, 8+2 phase which is good for stable power, and has good cooling for the NB, SB, and MOSFETs.

The only problem with the ASUS board is that Crossfire isn't a great idea because 1 of the cards would be forced to run at 4x. This isn't an issue because I don't plan to use crossfire.


Hopefully that clears some things up.

What I would really like now is to get some opinions on what you think about DDR3 memory. The difference, to the best of my knowledge, negligible in terms of gaming performance between DDR3 1333 cl9 and DDR3 1800 cl7. The reason for this is probably due to the fact that at high resolutions the GPU is severely bottlenecking the system.

However, I'd like your opinion on it. If you know something about the particular parts that I picked please be sure to let me know. I am all ears, and if I missed something I'll be glad to correct it.


Addendum; I am actually trying to decide if I want the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula instead of the board I linked originally. I like the Crosshair IV Formula board, but it's clear to me that a LOT of people are having contact issues between the NB and the NB cooler which is leading to overheating issues. I do not want to get a shitty board and have to modify it to get it working. Please give me your opinion on both of these.

Thanks,
Ketchup

I dont mean keep the board for you main system, i mean once you get a better board, use this ASRock board for a HTPC setup.

crosshair 4 is my vote!

[Ketchup]

On the motherboard front, I am a lover of gigabyte personally (although I have owned 6 or 7 Asus boards), this ones quite nice for the price.....

GIGABYTE GA-890GPA-UD3H AM3 AMD 890GX HDMI SATA 6G... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128435)

The problem that I see with this board is that it uses 4+1 phase. This is going to limit my overclock. I plan on getting some exotic cooling and pushing this Phenom II x6 through the roof, and 4+1 just won't cut it. The more phases the better.

If it wasn't for the simple phase issue I'd buy that Gigabyte board in a heartbeat.

[pantherx12]

If sata 6gbs and usb 3 arnt required the M4A79T Deluxe could be an option, they're not to expensive now ( being the last chipset) but I've seen people get 4ghz out of the 6 core chips with them anyways : ]

I really liked mine when I had one.

Lots and lots of bios options! great for tweeking those extra few mhz out.

[cadaveca]

Counting the numebr of phases is far to general to know the actual power capability of the motherboard.


But in most cases, you will be very right.


Seems to me, most high-end boards don't really supply much more power than lesser boards...you can only pull so much power out of an 8-pin connector. To me, it's the capability of each phase, and the frequency it operates at, that really matters.


This example is getting really dated at this point...but back in P35 days, alot of high clocks were using a very basic P5K motherboard from ASUS...with just a 4x1 power design.

[pantherx12]

I tend to find fewer phases just means you need to cool the mosfets better.

[Ketchup]

OK Well I think I have some good suggestions now.
I am stuck between the M4A79T Deluxe that pantherx12 recommended, and the Gigabyte board that Tatty_One recommended.

On one hand the M4A79T Deluxe uses 8+2 phase, and what looks to be decent cooling. On the other hand the Gigabyte board saves me a good chunk of money that I could use to invest in beer to enjoy the final product.

I think in the end I'll probably go with the M4A79T Deluxe because, although cadaveca might be right about me getting around 4ghz with a 4+1 phase motherboard, I plan to push it up near 5ghz ultimately. I'm not sure if 4+1 is going to be suitable for extreme overclocking. The G.Skill Flare I chose is already decided upon. Even if the performance differences are negligible, it will still allow me some headroom so that I don't have to tweak memory dividers or timings quite as much as the core frequency and FSB goes up.

Total cost with the Asus Crosshair IV Formula and G.Skill Flare DDR3 1800 = $420
Total cost with the ASUS M4A79T Deluxe and G.Skill Flare DDR3 1800 = $347

I'm still not against Gigabyte, or any other manufacturer. I am just stuck on this whole 8+2 phase thing. I want as much headroom as I can get, so that I can push 1.6+v through this Phenom hexa core, and break a few benchmark records.

I just thought I'd also note that I'll probably be replacing this Phenom II x6 1055t with a Phenom II x6 1090t soon.

[pantherx12]

5ghz eh?

You dice potting it or phase cooling or something?

In regards to the mobo cooling its fairly good, doesn't get hot to touch like my current mobo NB but just a heads up the fins etc are allu with copper coating, only the bases and heatpipes and copper!

Might even just be the heatpipes even.

[Ketchup]

Well I have a very talented friend that works with welding, and I'm willing to bet he can make me a good pot for use with dry ice. I don't think I'll go as far as LN2,
and I don't want to spend a fortune on a good phase change cooler, so I think something like Dry ice is a good compromise.

As long as it's below ambient temps I should see 5ghz out of the chip. I have seen 4.6ghz on water out of these Phenom x6 chips. New low-k dielectrics are nice.


EDIT:

I'm just going to use a Thermalright TRUE (lapped) with a 120mm Scythe Ultra Kaze 3000 fan for my 24/7 use. This should allow me around 4.0 or 4.2ghz.

[cadaveca]

I think you might need good phase cooling for 5ghz. Screw that ...I KNOW you'll need it for 24/7, for sure. if you are planning that with that 1055T, I wish you the best of luck. You'll need more than sub-ambient.

Before these chips came out, I was giving the recommendation of 4ghz, 1600mhz CAS6 mem, and 3200MHZ NB speed. That is more than enough power for anyone out there.

If you want greater performance...you gotta go intel, at this point in the game.

Crosshair 4 is proven under cold..M4A is good, but not AS good. To get the most out of Thuban, you need 890FX.

[Ketchup]

Well what I meant by breaking records is that I plan to break a few AMD records. Especially one held by a friend of mine. He has a 15~s Super Pi run with a Phenom II x6 1090t. I want his spot.


Also; I am undeniably biased towards AMD. You could offer me a beer, Megan Fox, 50% more performance, and a free car and I'd still want an AMD.

[cadaveca]

SPi is all about tweaking OS at this point, not just raw speed. I left the extreme-end of overclocking a long time ago now, becuase it's really become about how well someone can cheat the benchmark, while still providing a result that others deem valid. There used to be a time when if you couldn't post up some long-term stability testing, clocking was considered what it really is...useless...

4ghz should be no problem for ya. I'd really recommend the CH4. I do feel the extra cost is well worth it.

FYI..4+1...or 8+2...same garbage. 8+2=4+1x2 , with lower-grade components, I feel. By adding more phases, this allows phases to run cooler, but does not really provide more stable power. Switching frequency dictates how stable power will be, IMHO.

[Ketchup]

OK cadaveca. Which memory would you recommend to cut costs if I go for the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula board? I'm still a bit nervous about the whole NB/MOSFET cooling assembly as well.

This RAM is cheap, has free shipping, and would most likely be suitable for any game I throw at it:
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231193)

I am open to suggestions though. At this point I'd like to spend less than $400 total.

[brandonwh64]

I personally wouldnt go with a M4A79T- Deluxe. i had one and it didnt OC much at all. this is just a personal opinion

[cadaveca]

OK cadaveca. Which memory would you recommend to cut costs if I go for the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula board? I'm still a bit nervous about the whole NB/MOSFET cooling assembly as well.

This RAM is cheap, has free shipping, and would most likely be suitable for any game I throw at it:
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231193)

I am open to suggestions though. At this point I'd like to spend less than $400 total.

Let me say, I am running 8GB of Dominator GT 2000C8 in both my 790FX/5870 Crossfire rigs.

Both are now running 965BE.

One rig is 4ghz cpu, 2400NB, 1600mhz ram @ CAS6. vgas are 850/1200 @ stock.

The other is stock, 3.4ghz, 2000NB, 1333mhz ram @ CAS 9. vgas are 875/1300 @ stock.

I cannot tell the difference between them, when gaming. OC'ed rig loads levels slightly faster...maybe 1 second or 2 at MOST.

If you are benching, then sure, timings and such matters. But games and such are designed that such things only have a minimal impact anyway. So I say any 1333mhz ram is fine...if ya want to beat your friend's bench, then you gotta spend more cash. YOU must decide what's most important for you.

My own real-world testing says it doesn't matter.

In regards to the cooling...deal with it, I say. If you are going to overclock, you must be prepared to take the steps nessecary to ensure your overclock is stable...that includes changing TIM on motherboard, etc...

I can buy CH4F for $250. that leaves $150 for ram...that's LOTS. try for less than $350 before shipping.

[ebolamonkey3]

Hey, if you are not set on the CHIV, take a look at the 890FXA-UD5. It's a wonderful board and provides better value than the Asus.

[pantherx12]

Well I have a very talented friend that works with welding, and I'm willing to bet he can make me a good pot for use with dry ice. I don't think I'll go as far as LN2,
and I don't want to spend a fortune on a good phase change cooler, so I think something like Dry ice is a good compromise.

As long as it's below ambient temps I should see 5ghz out of the chip. I have seen 4.6ghz on water out of these Phenom x6 chips. New low-k dielectrics are nice.


EDIT:

I'm just going to use a Thermalright TRUE (lapped) with a 120mm Scythe Ultra Kaze 3000 fan for my 24/7 use. This should allow me around 4.0 or 4.2ghz.

I'd recommend scythe gentle typhoons instead, you'll get about the same performance but with much less noise.

[Tatty_One]

The problem that I see with this board is that it uses 4+1 phase. This is going to limit my overclock. I plan on getting some exotic cooling and pushing this Phenom II x6 through the roof, and 4+1 just won't cut it. The more phases the better.

If it wasn't for the simple phase issue I'd buy that Gigabyte board in a heartbeat.

A guy that works for me runs a 1090T @ 4.3gig on that board... no issues.

Edit: if you want more phases just go for the UD5 or UD7 then.