Who'll be the better president?

[Bigjohn]

I don't deny that at all. But ironically, Americans fly down here to get their treatments done at a price we term as fair. Price : Performance ratio ? Why do Americans fly down here when they have the "best" health-care there? Because not all can have access to necessary health-care when they need it.

Back when I was doing my interns, our hospital management asked us to survey our out-patient dept. to find out what people thinks about the way the government is making us price our services. It's a regulation. Surprisingly, the average Indian did not find the prices of health-care services pinching (or unreasonable). A surgery is an expensive affair for sure (by local standards), but it's not expensive enough for getting into the 'unreasonable' domain.
Most of these visits are for "elective" surguries - India has actually developed a FREE MARKET solution, providing a clean and safe facility that is not excessively regulated where people can buy what they need.

[btarunr]

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[Guru Janitor]

Wrong.
Healthcare in the US came under severe government intervention when the UNIONS (socialist gangs of thugs) demanded more and more things be covered by their "insurance". Even into the late 1960's you could get a house-call from a doctor. No more...Why? Because the unions demanded EVERYTHING be covered by "insurance". WTF? Car insurance does not cover oil changes or car washes, why should "health insurance" cover a checkup??

Because a checkup today costs 100 dollars...

[btarunr]

Most of these visits are for "elective" surgeries - India has actually developed a FREE MARKET solution, providing a clean and safe facility that is not excessively regulated where people can buy what they need.

You could be right, I don't know the proportion between elective and prescribed surgeries, but we do have a sizable amount of health-tourists here. Yes, the market is largely free-market, though health services are regulated in the private sector. It is to maintain parity between private health institutions and those run by the state.

[Bigjohn]

Because a checkup today costs 100 dollars...
So, an oil change costs 30. and you have to do it ever 3 - 4 months or so... you only need a checkup when you want one, or when you're sick... and it costs 100 because OF UNION MANDATES AND GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION!

[Rammsteiner]

are you crazy every dignitary in the world flys to the Mayo Clinic or to the Cleveland Clinc for treatment. The USA has the finest doctors and health care in the world hands down.
lolwut:wtf:

This is exactly what I meant a few hours back (and already 7 pages back or so:p). This is plain arrogant to be honest.

Anyway, to keep it a bit clean, then why did I never heard of anyone specially going to USA for health care? I heard loads of countries, never USA while the dollar is very attractive as well. Damn, I even heard people specially going to Serbia for some threatment.

Also, I think that 'superior health care' is far from superior. If you were a doctor and lets say a 10 year old boy gets brought in because some drunk mofo hit him with a car and he has a broken backspine... Are you really willing to let him alive for the rest of his whole life while he cant do jack sh*t? Even when he and his parents ask, or even beg, you to just pull the plug? Yeah, the best health care, way to go:wtf:

Besides that, I think pretty much most countries have the very same quality of doctors anyway. This science isnt a national secret, every doctor had a long time of studies as well.

[KieranD]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4&feature=related

Barack is awesome even if he dosnt win hes still a legend.

[Bigjohn]

lolwut:wtf:

This is exactly what I meant a few hours back (and already 7 pages back or so:p). This is plain arrogant to be honest.

Anyway, to keep it a bit clean, then why did I never heard of anyone specially going to USA for health care? I heard loads of countries, never USA while the dollar is very attractive as well. Damn, I even heard people specially going to Serbia for some threatment.

Also, I think that 'superior health care' is far from superior. If you were a doctor and lets say a 10 year old boy gets brought in because some drunk mofo hit him with a car and he has a broken backspine... Are you really willing to let him alive for the rest of his whole life while he cant do jack sh*t? Even when he and his parents ask, or even beg, you to just pull the plug? Yeah, the best health care, way to go:wtf:

Besides that, I think pretty much most countries have the very same quality of doctors anyway. This science isnt a national secret, every doctor had a long time of studies as well.

No, they pull the plug here all the time - and if it were not for the socialists, probably more often...

Most DISCOVERIES are made here. American companies have more patents, inventions, etc. than anywhere in the world. per capita, we have the BEST system in the world. Nobody waits 6 months for a cancer treatment.
Canadians come here (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070914/belinda_Stronach_070914/20070914?hub=Health), from their UK style health system...

Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama try to make you believe that they actually care about your healthcare. That's horsecrap. The truth of the matter is: they don't. They care about power. Democrats want to provide government healthcare or insurance programs for one reason ... because they realize that controlling your health care means controlling you. Power. Don't believe me? Here's the news from April 2008 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120856003868627785.html?mod=djemEditorialPage)

[proletariandan]

and Ted Turner is better? Hannoi Janes husband who founded CNN. Most normal Americans agree with Rupert Mudock and Fox news is the number one news source in America look it up. Hes a conservative Christian Bizzilion air and I agree with him on most topics.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

:banghead:

[trt740]

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

:banghead:

:roll::roll::roll::roll::nutkick::D

[trt740]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4&feature=related

Barack is awesome even if he dosnt win hes still a legend.

your right hes a legendary community orgainizer and political activist on the level of MalcomX and Lewis Farrakhan

[Bigjohn]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4&feature=related

Barack is awesome even if he dosnt win hes still a legend.

Awesome why? What has he done? Besides being primped and polished by the media in the US?

[proletariandan]

Who can pronounce 'nuclear' correctly?

Biden > Palin

...sad

[Polaris573]

Who can pronounce 'nuclear' correctly?

Biden > Palin

...sad

Yeah... I'm watching the debate right now. The whole farce is pretty silly.

Nuke you ler :roll:

[Bigjohn]

Who can pronounce 'nuclear' correctly?

Biden > Palin

...sad

Don't care about speach impediments... Care about not wanting to take my money to give it to someone else who's made horrible judgements and now wants "the government" to pay for his mistakes.
Nuklr, nucleeer, noookeler... don't matter to me. Build 10 plants in each state. Bingo, no need for oil fired power...:banghead: but the socialists in congress are bound to the Environ-nazis, and so won't let us Drill for oil (for the past 30 years...) build a refinery (for the last 30 years), or, build a nuclear plan (since that incident at 3 mile island while Jimmy was in charge of the government and the nuclear regulatory commission...)

[Guru Janitor]

Awesome why? What has he done? Besides being primped and polished by the media in the US?

Barack Obama is one of the most down to earth and honest politicians on the planet. There's no denying it. I know you'll probably say something about this, but read any of his books, especially Audacity of Hope. How often do you get a nobody, coming from a mother 18 years older then himself, coming from nothing, touring around Illinois in a car town to town by himself, just to get on the peoples level, to see what they want, to let them know there's someone actually there in the government who still cares about the people. Then going on to be one of Illinoi's most influential senators. Now going on to fight to be president. He loves politics, and he loves the people. Mccain cant relate to anyone in middle class America except those who fight in a war. Obama grew up in lowerclass America, toured middle class, and lives with the upperclass, he knows it all. Most Americans fail to see this. It's certainly not a deciding factor, I'll give you that, but its pretty damn impressive.

[NinkobEi]

is it too late for a Obama/Palin ticket? I think she's tearing up Biden. Either way, she is a lot more intelligent than him.

[Duxx]

is it too late for a Obama/Palin ticket? I think she's tearing up Biden. Either way, she is a lot more intelligent than him.

Yah, think its a bit late ;)

[Bigjohn]

Barack Obama is one of the most down to earth and honest politicians on the planet. There's no denying it. I know you'll probably say something about this, but read any of his books, especially Audacity of Hope. How often do you get a nobody, coming from a mother 18 years older then himself, coming from nothing, touring around Illinois in a car town to town by himself, just to get on the peoples level, to see what they want, to let them know there's someone actually there in the government who still cares about the people. Then going on to be one of Illinoi's most influential senators. Now going on to fight to be president. He loves politics, and he loves the people. Mccain cant relate to anyone in middle class America except those who fight in a war. Obama grew up in lowerclass America, toured middle class, and lives with the upperclass, he knows it all. Most Americans fail to see this. It's certainly not a deciding factor, I'll give you that, but its pretty damn impressive.


Down to earth? So was Hitler. He was "all about the common man"... then he banned guns, and when all the private guns were gone, herded up all the "races" he didn't like....

Not saying Obama is like hitler, except that he has a Cult of Personality effect.

He's superficial and two faced. He's Against the surge, then for the surge... He's a welfare stateist, believing government is the solution, not the problem. Biden talks about Reinstating the middle class -- the middle class grew more under Reagan and Bush (2), than it did under Carter, and Clinton both...

[magibeg]

is it too late for a Obama/Palin ticket? I think she's tearing up Biden. Either way, she is a lot more intelligent than him.

Wait was that a joke?

That was a horrible debate to watch, sarah palin pretty much refused to answer certain questions... sorta made up her own questions, then went on wild stories that really didn't mean anything.

[Castiel]

Last time I was posting on this topic there was 69 post and now there is over 250! Man, politics needs its own section.

[NinkobEi]

Wait was that a joke?

That was a horrible debate to watch, sarah palin pretty much refused to answer certain questions... sorta made up her own questions, then went on wild stories that really didn't mean anything.

at the beginning yeah she did awful. evaded questions..but I thought she really picked it up at the end. of course I was only half paying attention...
it did seem like Biden kept saying the same ol' lines over and over again. I thought Palin had some nice rebuttals to Biden's anti-mccain/pro-obama script.
That said, I still like Obama more than I do McCain, but it seems like he could have picked a better VP than Biden.

[Bigjohn]

other than saying "also" too often, she answered every question and did so better than Biden.

Biden needs to address the fact that he HATED obama, thought he was unfit to lead, but now he's on the ticket, he loves him and wants to bone him...

[Bigjohn]

biden/obama is about as factual as ATT saying you need to use their service because they have more bars in more places (based on global coverage).... in the US their service sucks, but people will buy their phones because of those stupid commercials...

America is great because of our independent nature. If you want government to take care of you, do like all the muslims do, and move to france for free healthcare.... the benefit of americans moving is that we wont then tell you to change your laws because they offend us and we'll burn your town if you dont.... but oh, this is not about the islamification of europe is it, it's about Obama being a socialist vs a McCain centrist...

[EastCoasthandle]

Hey W1z,

We need another poll. "Who won the Vice Presidential Debate"
A. Biden
B. Palin
C. Neither
D. Both
E. The Media

[Bigjohn]

Hey W1z,

We need another poll. "Who won the Vice Presidential Debate"
A. Biden
B. Palin
C. Neither
D. Both
E. The Media
Palin won.

Biden spent the entire time explaining why he does not disagree with Obama anymore... Never saying "I think", but "obama biden will..."

At least Sara Palin spoke the truth, spoke of her family, and her "middle class" upbringing...

[das müffin mann]

well the next 4 yrs are going to be interesting, im not going to touch some of these arguments, and im not going to read the whole thread (im trying to watch spy game) but i will say this
McCain- don't like the man or most of his policies
obama- i really really don't like the fact that he is for the bailout
palin- hot, but a religious nut-job in every sense of the word, if McCain croaks if he makes it in office i will not stay in this country (very poor choice as vp in my opinion)
biden- as of late i don't know to much about him, but im trying to change that (should have picked some people like, maybe colon powel? sorry if i spelled any names wrong)

in all honesty im not going to vote, it's pointless and our votes are meaning less (gota love the electoral college)

but if held at gun point and forced to chose i would pick obama, simply because he can give a speech and he can actually speak proper English (most of the time)

[Wile E]

I still won't pick either. There is no lesser of 2 evils in this situation to me. They are both equally terrible.

[paybackdaman]

All I can say is that hopefully another SNL skit is in order...with biden's constant "george bush's" and sarah's alaska stories.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4&feature=related

Barack is awesome even if he dosnt win hes still a legend.

and i thought that video of obama was most excellent. Not voting for him, but it was still awesome. Crazy what people can do with too much time on their hands.

[farlex85]

All I can say is that hopefully another SNL skit is in order...with biden's constant "george bush's" and sarah's alaska stories.



Too bad SNL sucks now, just doesn't have the talent used to, for instance in 2000. I'm still trying to find the mock debates w/ Will Ferrel (really the first great George W. impersonator) and Darrel Hammond. NBC has gone to sch great lengths to remove every trace of them from the webs.

[das müffin mann]

im just absolutely sick of politics, they way they dance around issues, taking wording out of context, ohhh and i gota love those commercials where they slander the hell out of each other, and yet non of them seem to have a solid opinion on issues as they just reiterate sound bites, about Iraq, oil, and the economy, and them saying they're going to "fix it" really isn't enough explanation for me. and they all have the same basic slogan for change, i mean why? there not really going to change much, well that really depends on how much the lobbyists pay them to change things. kinda makes me wish the pirate bay bought that island, then i could go live there

i wish we could resurrect the dead, that way we could take all presidents deemed as "good" and have them mud wrestle for the presidency, i would rather watch that on tv then those stupid ass commercials that people buy into
although it might take zombie Lincoln a while to get used to culture shock

[paybackdaman]

isn't it great how the only commercials that don't have to be 100% truthful are the ads for politicians. what a country. :rolleyes:

OH...and vote zombie lincoln!

[das müffin mann]

i like this one
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg

[das müffin mann]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u47/jamesbob666/zombie_lincoln_for_president.jpg

[Darkrealms]

Hey W1z,

We need another poll. "Who won the Vice Presidential Debate"
A. Biden
B. Palin
C. Neither
D. Both
E. The Media
LoL, Palin won that one. Biden didn't really stump her once. He was stumped by her twice (for/against Obama and Afghanistan Tactics). I was scared when it started, she looked weak. But after they got started she really picked it up. Honestly I like both the VP options better than the President options.

Palin is "real", she's not a standard politician. She speaks her mind and sticks to it. She has level views (albeit very conservative ones), she's not out there like Obama is in the clouds. Her biggest downfall is her lack of DC politics, honesty and straight forwardness will get you killed (politically) in DC.

Biden has a long (fairly distinguished) track record similar to McCain and is able to work with both sides. I think his downfall is the fact he's running mate to a man he doesn't think is really fit to lead and to make it worse doesn't really share the same views.

Again this is my views, lets stay on topic.

[Odin Eidolon]

Were you related to Mussolini?


I apologize for my statement earlier to Odin Eidolon.

Can this get back to topic now?

Yhanks for the apologizes, CS. Really, if there is someone that hates Mussolini as much as i do, please let me know. He and is friand Hitler destroyed the lives of all the Europeans, and caused millions of deaths.

Please fellas, no personal insults. If somebody quashed your argument, feel free to quash back without getting personal.

You are completely wrong because.... is fine, but Are you xxxxxxxxx ? .... isn't.

Thanks. I apologise to CS too if i had insulted him.

are you crazy every dignitary in the world flys to the Mayo Clinic or to the Cleveland Clinc for treatment. The USA has the finest doctors and health care in the world hands down.

The USA can be the best healthcare system only if you have the money (still i think that from this point of view all countries are equal, apart Japan that beats all). Dont you think of those (40%, as i said) with no money to pay 1000$ for a broken finger? And what if their heart needs an opetation? they die. I just watched the film John Q... do you remember it?

[eidairaman1]

I'll share my view on this Controversial Election Year, In my opinion, I think a candidate should have some form of military experience before they can be a candidate. I agree with Biden, Obama is not ready to run this nation since we are in the middle of a few wars/economic slump, I know most will probably not like what I have to say but this is a free nation, I don't trust him with the Issues on Terrorism/Iraq- i mean it's like this, suppose another attack does happen, what is he going to do? Try to sanction and condemn the attack? Alot of the time Sanctions/condemption is not enough to stop such problems from occurring in the future, actions speak louder than words. Also look what happened in Saudi Arabia in 1996- Khobar Towers were attacked what did the then president do- nothing- speaking for such problems doesn't get anything done- action does. To pick in the past, Clinton knew that 9/11 was going to happen, he just set the office up for failure.

You can call me a Conservative/Republican Supporter, but looking at alot of views, I say I share alot of characteristics of support/not support of all parties, all of them have their positives and negatives, but looking at Obama as a person- there is something that I'm seeing from him that I don't like. If there was another Demo Candidate other than Obama and Hilary I would of selected them before the latter.

end rant.

[R-T-B]

These "other ideas" i.e. Socialism have FAILED. Russia anybody?

You're confusing socialism and hardcore communism. Europe is largely socialist. Hardly a failure.

[CStylen]

You're confusing socialism and hardcore communism. Europe is largely socialist. Hardly a failure.

Socialism paved the road for communism. If you research Russian (USSR) history you will see they were largely socialist. It did not work in the past and will not work in the future. In the US, we have a democracy and capitalism which works very well. In fact, it's these principles that led us to being the only remaining superpower in the world today.

Heres a quote from Winston Churchill:

. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

[btarunr]

With having to pay $1000 for a broken finger, how does US being a "superpower" matter at all? :roll:

You have the same urban crime-rates as almost any other developed country, nearly the same oil-prices, slightly lower commodity prices. As an citizen there's nothing much to feel high about the "superpower" moniker, really.

[Psyon]

Most DISCOVERIES are made here. American companies have more patents, inventions, etc. than anywhere in the world. per capita, we have the BEST system in the world. Nobody waits 6 months for a cancer treatment.
Canadians come here (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070914/belinda_Stronach_070914/20070914?hub=Health), from their UK style health system...


Yes you have the most discoveries, but that's caused by the fact that the US is the biggest industrial state. I come from Germany. You propably know us from making good cars. We, this tiny little country, are world champion in export. We are in front of China and the USA. Why are we that? Yes, because our technic and inventions are good. Not only the ones we do on cars. Japan is propably even more innovative and also has a very good health care system. So based on the size of your country there are many countries with more inventions.

But anyways we have a national health system where everyone, regardless of his income gets medical help. This doesn't mean that he gets every useless teeth whitening payed by goverment, but the essential things like surgeries, cancer medcine etc you don't have to pay much for that.

It doesn't make our industry less efficient if we just try to keep all ppl not hungry, ill or homeless. Sure, everyone has to pay a bit for it, but you pay it for ppl investing the money they get in something. Even if its just a surgery doctors and nurses get payed by that.

Most of you forget about the fact, that not the politicans will get more money but that there will propably be more hospitals ie more jobs as doctors and nurses

[TIGR]

There sure are a lot of impressive-sounding words and people who seem convinced they know more than everyone else in this thread. ;)

[CStylen]

I don't think people understand that in the US, medical treatment is available to everybody. Be it that you don't have insurance, are an illegal immigrant, or even don't pay your medical bills, you will still get treatment.

Based on our constitution, a nationalized healthcare system is not the answer. This is what Obama is in favor of which would completely destroy the heatlthcare free market industry.

[Psyon]

Socialism paved the road for communism. If you research Russian (USSR) history you will see they were largely socialist. It did not work in the past and will not work in the future. In the US, we have a democracy and capitalism which works very well. In fact, it's these principles that led us to being the only remaining superpower in the world today.


Well, we all know that communism doesn't work well. Russia is an example. If you watch China you see them getting more and more capitalistic. It is a trend almost any growing/wealthying communistic country is following. But this doesn't mean that capitalism at its pures form is ideal. Capitalism paired with socialism works very well for many countries not only in europe.

And the fact that you are a superpower is more again founded by the size of your country. It will not take long time till China will pass you, at least economically. And I foresay they will never be a pure capitalistic country.

About the militaristic "superpower" well... I'll get flamed if I say it directly, but the ones most profitting from it is just the weapon lobby. I don't need any war. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those 68ers saying everything can be done by words. I know that war sometimes can't be avoided. But lately the reasons seem to be not that clear...

[Darkrealms]

I'll share my view on this Controversial Election Year, In my opinion, I think a candidate should have some form of military experience before they can be a candidate. I agree with Biden, Obama is not ready to run this nation since we are in the middle of a few wars/economic slump, I know most will probably not like what I have to say but this is a free nation, I don't trust him with the Issues on Terrorism/Iraq- i mean it's like this, suppose another attack does happen, what is he going to do? Try to sanction and condemn the attack? Alot of the time Sanctions/condemption is not enough to stop such problems from occurring in the future, actions speak louder than words. Also look what happened in Saudi Arabia in 1996- Khobar Towers were attacked what did the then president do- nothing- speaking for such problems doesn't get anything done- action does. To pick in the past, Clinton knew that 9/11 was going to happen, he just set the office up for failure.

You can call me a Conservative/Republican Supporter, but looking at alot of views, I say I share alot of characteristics of support/not support of all parties, all of them have their positives and negatives, but looking at Obama as a person- there is something that I'm seeing from him that I don't like. If there was another Demo Candidate other than Obama and Hilary I would of selected them before the latter.

end rant.
Being for a free market and for "small government" will always make you sound conservative/republican. The democratic party tends to sway towards larger/more government assistance and control where the republicans tend to aim for less government involvement with much of the American daily lives.
I also think of the USS Cole. I remember it was circulating after the Cole was bombed that Clinton's stance was (sorry if I don't get this exactly right): "Shoot a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt."
I can understand your point of view with Obama having no experience/understanding to lead our military (my original post in this topic brought up those fears, I think on page 9).
I don't think people understand that in the US, medical treatment is available to everybody. Be it that you don't have insurance, are an illegal immigrant, or even don't pay your medical bills, you will still get treatment.

Based on our constitution, a nationalized healthcare system is not the answer. This is what Obama is in favor of which would completely destroy the heatlthcare free market industry.
Many people of the world don't understand fully the free market concept that founded the United States. We have strayed from it so far some ways that I don't think all Americans understand it either.

[Psyon]

I don't think people understand that in the US, medical treatment is available to everybody. Be it that you don't have insurance, are an illegal immigrant, or even don't pay your medical bills, you will still get treatment.

Based on our constitution, a nationalized healthcare system is not the answer. This is what Obama is in favor of which would completely destroy the heatlthcare free market industry.

Maybe it "should be" that everybody can get medical treatment. Look at Goerge Moore's Sicko. Sure it's a drastically one sided point of view, but lately I read a few stories about ppl not getting treatment (for example a mentally disordered man dying in a hospital just because he didn't get medicine). I never heared those stories from outside the USA.

[CStylen]

Maybe it "should be" that everybody can get medical treatment. Look at Goerge Moore's Sicko. Sure it's a drastically one sided point of view, but lately I read a few stories about ppl not getting treatment (for example a mentally disordered man dying in a hospital just because he didn't get medicine). I never heared those stories from outside the USA.

Forgive my short answer but, huh?

[trt740]

Wait was that a joke?

That was a horrible debate to watch, sarah palin pretty much refused to answer certain questions... sorta made up her own questions, then went on wild stories that really didn't mean anything.

says you :roll:

[KieranD]

i dont care if palin is middle class all dandy and WASP shes too inexperiencd to be vice president goverour of what ALSKA WITH A FRIKEN POPULATION CONSISTING OF A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE AND A FEW HUNDRED BEARS!!!

dont care if anyone is from a poor or a rich upbrining all i care about is can they run the country well thats all that matters

maybe i was being ageist and maybe mc cain would be a good president but i think obahma is the leader the country needs

im only an outsider so dont bother about what i think

[eidairaman1]

Kieran, why do you care? your not a US Citizen (correct me if im wrong on that)

[DaMulta]

Biden CLEARLY won this. He answered every question, while Plain skipped just about everyone. How many times did she repeat the same thing about taxes? two many to count.

McCain on wallstreet voting for less and less deregulation. When Obama seen this coming two years ago and said something needed to be done. Now all McCains adds push the buck to Obama when in fact Obama was for regulation that McCain wants now.

Biden clearly new whats going on in all the wars. And who to go after.

Palin was all about oil and drill drill drill. It will take 10 years to get that oil, and it's only a 3 year supply. In ten years if we focused all our attention on wind farms and other sources of energy we would not even need that oil. There's plenty now. On clean coal, Biden clearly pointed out that was he was talking about was taken out of context. Clean coal could be the way to the future. We can make jet fuel, diesel out of that stuff it just needs to be worked on as gasoline has to burn cleaner. To top it off we have mountains of coal. It would be a very wise thing to go after instead of more oil.

She said that he kept looking at the past, but every time he did that he gave the answer of what he voted for. Then everything that he was against and predicted came true in a bad way. He was not just saying the past but giving a way to fix it, or how it should of been done. Plain during many of these times, didn't respond back to him, but went back to her taxes taxes taxes statements. I loled every time she did it, because clearly she had no idea on what he was even talking about.

I love how she says cut cut cut taxes when we are going into a huge dept. It's going to take my lifetime, and my sons just to pay it off. It's a have to thing, and yes Palin it's patriotic to help your country pay for the things that help us and the world. Money does not grow on trees. And yes Palin people that make over 250k a year would not be hurting if they had to pay a little more. It has to be paid one day, before we go bankrupt and I have to take a wheel barrel of cash to buy a loaf of bread.

She kept saying the maverick over and over, I loved when Bidin corrected her on why he is not one. It's just a spin on the truth.

At one point she made a statement about Obama raising taxes on a bill, when McCain voted yes on the same bill. He clearly knows McCain better than she does.

And lets be honest is Pakistan or Iran shot off a nuke. They would only get a few off, before they were wiped off the planet. From my understanding we could wipe Russia out with just 4 bombs.

To me she should she has no business running for Vp of the United States of America. Even more so that McCain could drop dead at any given moment and she would become President. I don't even want to think about that.

The biggest thing I myself walked away from watching this was. That McCain and Bush are the same. Biden made that point very very very clear. So if you take a look at were we are now, and the world hating us, if McCain wins it's just going to continue.

[btarunr]

Kieran, why do you care? your not a US Citizen (correct me if im wrong on that)

He cares because this is a open debate for everyone, even if we don't participate in the American democracy, an American leadership does affect the whole world. So the "superpower" monicker comes into play there.

This is sparta (300 replies :D)

[DaMulta]

I don't think people understand that in the US, medical treatment is available to everybody. Be it that you don't have insurance, are an illegal immigrant, or even don't pay your medical bills, you will still get treatment.

Based on our constitution, a nationalized healthcare system is not the answer. This is what Obama is in favor of which would completely destroy the heatlthcare free market industry.

You have to be on your death bed to get that.....Emergency room. McCains healthcare plan is just scary to me.

In my state we have a healthcare system for everyone that is under 18 and it works VERY well. You pick your own doctors, dentist, eye doctors. It just works. Now you have to make so much money to qualify for it, and that's what we should have for everyone in the us. You make under 24k or border line poverty you should have free health care.



Most countries that have money have free heathcare. Why don't we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

[DOM]

You have to be on your death bed to get that.....Emergency room. McCains healthcare plan is just scary to me.

In my state we have a healthcare system for everyone that is under 18 and it works VERY well. You pick your own doctors, dentist, eye doctors. It just works. Now you have to make so much money to qualify for it, and that's what we should have for everyone in the us. You make under 24k or border line poverty you should have free health care.



Most countries that have money have free heathcare. Why don't we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_caregreed my friend :shadedshu

[Darkrealms]

DaMulta you and I took very different points of view away from this debate. I felt that Biden dodged more issues than Palin did.
What state do you live in? Sorry I know Oregon doesn't have that as a system. One of the problems with providing for the very poor (permanently, I agree with temporary assistance) is that many of them won't raise themselves to a higher standard if it is paid for. I have stated several times that I don't mind helping people out temporarily to help them get back on their feet but people take advantage of the system all the time.
I also feel that Palin has more experience in politics than Obama does, does this mean I want her to be president, NO! But I do feel she has more experience. I also feel that Biden presented himself in a way that made him no more straight forward than McCain does.

KieranD do you know anything about Alaska? My parents have lived there for a while now and feel that her strengths out way her weaknesses by far and she has been helping Alaska.

[Basard]

lol, the debate, wow.... sad... i couldnt take it anymore after 5 minutes..... they couldnt discuss any points because the other side just would talk shit, so the whole time each vp was just defending his or herself.

palin gives shoutouts to 3rd graders during one of her turns---sad..... god will save our country.... yeah right, what a dumb ass, if republicans win this year, we may as well commit suicide.... "she stopped the bridge to nowhere" whoopty fuckin do....

biden? at least he acts like a politician, not a ditsy soccer mom with a fuckin yooper accent. i have no clue about this guy, but at least he doesn't SOUND like an idiot.

and whats the deal with political parties, get rid of them.... for the same reason we seperated church and state.... "what are you democrat or republican?" "seriously, i wanna know so i can start hating you already..." sad.... lets label everybody in the country, so we can be prejudice against them...

as far as palin helping alaska... ya sure, it's pretty hard to help that state, haha.... anything you do up there is help.... u could dig a hole in the ground, and crap in it... u just helped keep one pile of crap off the streets of alaska--and nothing else would break the news....

"on one side is russia, and on the other is canada, they are both in alaska--der da der"

[eidairaman1]

i sort of realized something about the 2 major parties, each time the sides swap, the current president sets up the office for failure, making it hard for the next party to do something productive, im sorry but these parties have got to go.

[Rammsteiner]

No, they pull the plug here all the time - and if it were not for the socialists, probably more often...
Ive heard other stories to be honest. Even a hosptital in our country was on USA news for 'murdering':shadedshu And with the huge pro-christianity in USA I doubt it's done with 100% agreement in the first place.

Most DISCOVERIES are made here. American companies have more patents, inventions, etc. than anywhere in the world. per capita, we have the BEST system in the world. Nobody waits 6 months for a cancer treatment.
Canadians come here (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070914/belinda_Stronach_070914/20070914?hub=Health), from their UK style health system...
Errr, are you trailing Palin now? What have compagnies with patents and inventions have to do with healthcare?

Anyway, if you want a nice short clear list of the great achievements conservatists seem to be proud of; here (http://www.lyricsmania.com/lyrics/flesh_field_lyrics_24315/other_lyrics_54892/allegiance_lyrics_563193.html) you go. No matter what USA discovers, if we'd only forget the mess they made the past 15 years, it's still nothing to be proud of.

Also USA has nothing to do with compagnies and such really, this could have happened in any country. USA has simply the pioneer status and a lot of people are still drugged with the American Dream, so it's always growing and thus almost a guaranteed money flow. Regarding the patents, that's because everyone is afraid the neighbour runs away with it and eventually makes money from it, even if the invention was only meant to prevent shit flying around your toilet when your sick.

And actually, the very few and most important inventions were done in the old Greek/Roman/Chinese/Egypt/Iraq/Iran/French and even Dutch times, everything is based on that.

Wait time for healthcare is indeed good yeah, however this still does not mean the quality is because of that the best, nor that the whole system is the best or what so ever. In quite a few countries the most important drawback is the lack of enough hospitals.

Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama try to make you believe that they actually care about your healthcare. That's horsecrap. The truth of the matter is: they don't. They care about power. Democrats want to provide government healthcare or insurance programs for one reason ... because they realize that controlling your health care means controlling you. Power. Don't believe me? Here's the news from April 2008 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120856003868627785.html?mod=djemEditorialPage)
It could be me really, but I hardly see anything wrong there? It's just a battle between two systems where both have there negative and positive points... Like capitalism and communism.

Also I see no 'evil power control' options there, as far as I understand it they want to make sure people do not spend insurance money for healthcare on irrelevant things. If I would have a reason to try and think of a theory/conspiracy here, I would think they want to protect the insured people for cheating their selves instead of controlling... what?

The way I read it, it's like a bank. Bank sets up a mortgage with you, you think you're smart and actually increase it with 50K so 'lol, we've got more money!'. Then we cant pay it anymore because of no job, spending too much or whatever and the bank will the be left laughing because you only cheated yourself.

Just how I see it really. Im not anti-American, pro-Democrats or what so ever. I do think that the thoughts of a lot of Americans is a bit, simplistic so to say. And yes, quite a lot of those are mostly conservatists:p

[Scrizz]

lol, the debate, wow.... sad... i couldnt take it anymore after 5 minutes..... they couldnt discuss any points because the other side just would talk shit, so the whole time each vp was just defending his or herself.

palin gives shoutouts to 3rd graders during one of her turns---sad..... god will save our country.... yeah right, what a dumb ass, if republicans win this year, we may as well commit suicide.... "she stopped the bridge to nowhere" whoopty fuckin do....

biden? at least he acts like a politician, not a ditsy soccer mom with a fuckin yooper accent. i have no clue about this guy, but at least he doesn't SOUND like an idiot.

and whats the deal with political parties, get rid of them.... for the same reason we seperated church and state.... "what are you democrat or republican?" "seriously, i wanna know so i can start hating you already..." sad.... lets label everybody in the country, so we can be prejudice against them...

as far as palin helping alaska... ya sure, it's pretty hard to help that state, haha.... anything you do up there is help.... u could dig a hole in the ground, and crap in it... u just helped keep one pile of crap off the streets of alaska--and nothing else would break the news....

"on one side is russia, and on the other is canada, they are both in alaska--der da der"

:shadedshu

[Odin Eidolon]

Kieran, why do you care? your not a US Citizen (correct me if im wrong on that)

America is the most powerful nation in the world. What happens to you affects us all. Bush's errors damage us too. I pay fuel triple i did 10 years ago too.
Your economy is in a moment of danger, and our is trying not to fall down with yours.
We are all linked people. in this globalized world what happens to one nation affects the others.

[DaMulta]

DaMulta you and I took very different points of view away from this debate. I felt that Biden dodged more issues than Palin did.
I dont see how, like?

What state do you live in? Sorry I know Oregon doesn't have that as a system. One of the problems with providing for the very poor (permanently, I agree with temporary assistance) is that many of them won't raise themselves to a higher standard if it is paid for. I have stated several times that I don't mind helping people out temporarily to help them get back on their feet but people take advantage of the system all the time.
What makes people think that other people don't want to make more money? Just because they get free heath care, or a food stamps does not make people not want to make themselves do better. Now there are a few out there, but I would put money they have other issues as well.[/QUOTE]

I live in Oklahoma, I'm working at a place for the last 3 years as a single parent that does not make a ton of money. I plan on very soon taking my experience and looking for better employment that pays more with benefits. During that time, yes my son has been on the state heath care system. Why would you not want kids to go to the Dr if they are sick or just even a check up. Who you are born to is not a choice that kids get to make. They should be taken care of no matter what until they are adults IMO. The system has been in place for as long as I can remember, and I believe that it has done our kids a lot of good. I think it would be wrong to deny them them the right to be healthy.

Also

What if you live in a small town and all there is, is jobs that pay next to noting or a small farmer that barely makes ends meats and no way in hell could pay for health care? Is it a big fuck you move to a big city make big cash or sorry about your luck? Are we as a people not better than that, not to help our own people, but only to go fight wars across seas to free people with democracy. But then turn around and say fuck you to an American citizen that is sick and needs preventive care to live or to be even healthy? It should be a given right that all people should be taken care of, at least all the kids that have no choice in the matter at all.

I also feel that Palin has more experience in politics than Obama does, does this mean I want her to be president, NO! But I do feel she has more experience. I also feel that Biden presented himself in a way that made him no more straight forward than McCain does.
How so?
Obama was a constitutional law professor from 1992-2004(give or take)State legislator, 1997–2004,U.S. Senator, from 2005----now
During his time as a senator Obama got a little taste of EVERYTHING that goes on in this county and over seas way more than a Governor would ever see..
How many bills has he voted on that could have or did affect you and me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_legislature_(United_States)
As a Governor you deal with your state, to me not as important as what a senator does which affects each and every one of you and I.
As a legislative branch of government, a legislature generally performs the same duties for a state the Congress performs at Federal level, and a general rule, the same types of checks and balances at the Federal level apply between the state legislature, the state executive officer (a governor) and the state judiciary, though the degree to which this is so varies from one state to the next.

During a legislative session, the legislature considers matters introduced by its members or submitted by the governor. Businesses and other special interest organizations often lobby the legislature to obtain beneficial legislation, defeat unfavorably perceived measures, or influence other legislative action. A legislature also approves the state's operating and capital budgets, which may begin as a legislative proposal or a submission by the governor.

Under the terms of Article V of the U.S. Constitution, state lawmakers retain the power to ratify Constitutional amendments which have been proposed by the Congress and they also retain the ability to apply to the Congress for a national convention to directly propose Constitutional amendments to the states for ratification. Under Article II, state legislatures choose the manner of appointing the state's presidential electors. Formerly, state legislatures appointed the U.S. Senators from their respective states until the ratification of the 17th Amendment in 1913 required the direct election of Senators by a state's voters.
So Palin has more experience because she was in this small towns(6000 people) Wasilla, Alaska, city council from 1992 to 1996 and mayor from 1996 to 2002 dealing with city issues Not world issues(I keep seeing on t/v don't really know that that city went 2 million in dept with her in control but a lot of citys do that), and the Gov for not even 2 years yet(in Nov it will be 2 years).


KieranD do you know anything about Alaska? My parents have lived there for a while now and feel that her strengths out way her weaknesses by far and she has been helping Alaska.
No I don't live there, but Alaska has so much oil that it pays people to live there from my understanding. Of course they are going to be able to cut taxes for it citizens they are a rich state. When most states in the united states have to borrow money every year, or have a balanced budget. I think Alaska is almost a different country that the rest of America, it's isolated IMO and not the same as the rest of the us. Well yes and no as the same.

[mdm-adph]

Oh yeah -- forgot to say this yesterday. I know it's a low blow, but I like Obama better (as a person) because he's never cheated on his wife. :laugh:

Not to say I'd vote for him (if I could), but I wouldn't mind having a beer with the guy sometime.

[trt740]

i dont care if palin is middle class all dandy and WASP shes too inexperiencd to be vice president goverour of what ALSKA WITH A FRIKEN POPULATION CONSISTING OF A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE AND A FEW HUNDRED BEARS!!!

dont care if anyone is from a poor or a rich upbrining all i care about is can they run the country well thats all that matters

maybe i was being ageist and maybe mc cain would be a good president but i think obahma is the leader the country needs

im only an outsider so dont bother about what i think

700,000 people is hardly a few hundred people and a few bears.

[WhiteLotus]

700,000 people is hardly a few hundred people and a few bears.

The population of Plymouth (UK) is 250,700 (http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/population) and that is just a small city. I think what Keiran was getting at was that for the population density of Alaska compared to many other states in the USA it is nothing.

[btarunr]

The population of Plymouth (UK) is 250,700 (http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/population) and that is just a small city. I think what Keiran was getting at was that for the population density of Alaska compared to many other states in the USA it is nothing.

But it's a prominent state in respect to the country's oil reserves. Palin not only manages the people of Alaska, but also its wild-life, timber, oil corporations... and since the state is so dangerously close to Russia (implies some military presence in Alaska) and shares a border with Canada (patrol), and the fact that it's somewhat cut-off from mainland USA, running that icy state needs guts.

[WhiteLotus]

But it's a prominent state in respect to the country's oil reserves. Palin not only manages the people of Alaska, but also its wild-life, timber, oil corporations... and since the state is so dangerously close to Russia (implies some military presence in Alaska) and shares a border with Canada (patrol), and the fact that it's somewhat cut-off from mainland USA, running that icy state needs guts.

this is true - i don't argue that one bit, there is a lot of natural resources up there and they need to be looked after, and/or extracted without destroying all the wildelife that alaska has

I was just trying to say that Keiran probably meant its not hard to make 700,000 odd people happy.

[KieranD]

yeah making Alaska happy is easier than begin a mayor of a city of millions, all you have to do is make sure you dont upset the locals with to much resource drilling do a good job here and there

what does Palin know about running the US? granted only vice president but still a big job! shes not proved shes more than capable of the job

this election is more about family values and personalities

i dont even know what mc cain and obahma stand for LOL!

she might run Alaska very well indeed but begin vice president is totally different you understand im not mocking her work for Alaska its just totally different in scale


Russia LOL its tundra on that side of Russia and loads of ice between the sea, i highly doubt they are going to invade Alaska and march through Canada

who would want to illegally cross the border from Canada to Alaska? both are nice places

[bigenuffumbrella]

Here are the facts...vote for whomever you want. Links to all quoted sources are at the end of the post. God Bless America!

Favors new drilling offshore US
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARAK OBAMA No

Will appoint judges who interpret the law not make it
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARAK OBAMA No

Served in the US Armed Forces
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARACK OBAMA No

Amount of time served in the US Senate
JOHN McCAIN 22 YEARS
BARACK OBAMA almost 4 YEARS

Will institute a socialized national health care plan
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Supports abortion throughout the pregnancy
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Would pull troops out of Iraq immediately
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Supports gun ownership rights
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARACK OBAMA No

Proposed programs will mean a huge tax increase
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Voted against making English the official language
McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Voted to give Social Security benefits to illegals
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

CAPITAL GAINS TAX

MCCAIN
0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples). McCain does not propose any change in existing home sales income tax.

OBAMA
28% on profit from ALL home sales. (How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.)

DIVIDEND TAX

MCCAIN
15% (no change)

OBAMA
39.6% - (How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama becomes president.
The experts predict that 'Higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market, yet do absolutely nothing to cut the
deficit.')

INCOME TAX

MCCAIN

(no changes)
Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250

OBAMA (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750
Under Obama, your taxes could almost double!

INHERITANCE TAX

MCCAIN
- 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)

OBAMA
Restore the inheritance tax

Many families have lost businesses, farms, ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to loved ones will only lose them to these taxes.

NEW TAXES PROPOSED BY OBAMA

New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet.
New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already) New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity) New taxes on retirement accounts, and last but not least....New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level of medical care as other third-world countries.

On a personal note...Tax cuts for the middle class are all well and good. God know's I'm all for that. I'm as middle as they come. But the fact of the matter is if you raise taxes on the "wealthy", then they will in turn do less of those things that will cause them to be taxed. If they're a corporation they are likely to take their businesses over seas, if they are privately owned businesses they are likely not to expand and will cut back on the number of jobs they do have. Pay attention to the unemployment rate. Every time the minimum wage increases the jobless rate goes up the next quarter. Why? If I have 5 people who work for me for 5 dollars an hour and suddenly have to pay them now 7.50 an hour...I'm going to cut 2 people so I can make ends meet and still make a profit. Don't let your hatred of W get in the way of making a decision you will regret. I am old enough to remember the Carter administration and I remember eating brown beans 3 nights a week because it was all my parents could afford. John McCain is not George Bush. I think we can all agree we've had enough of W. But do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. 88% of the time he has voted in the Senate he has voted in favor of the taxpayer. Last year his average was 100%, Obama's was 12%, Biden's was 0%. John McCain has been in combat. He has fought and suffered for this country and I personally trust him to surround himself with people smart enough to fix the economy and I know he knows the fastest and best ways to bring my cousins, my friends and the rest of our boys home from Iraq. I don't' guess it's very hard to guess who I'm voting for, all the above figures are true btw and I invite you to check the answers for yourself. If you've read all of this thank you for your time.

BigE

Just something to think about.


***You can verify the above at the following web sites:

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/election/2008/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.taxes.html

http://elections.foxnews.com/?s=proposed+taxes

http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/politics/articles/mccain_obama_offer_
diff
erent_visions_on_taxes.html

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/barack_obama/

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/john_mccain/

[mdm-adph]

Here are the facts...vote for whomever you want. Links to all quoted sources are at the end of the post. God Bless America!


Ooh, me first, me first -- since even though you didn't state who you support, it's still pretty obvious, just let me check on a few things...


Favors new drilling offshore US
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARAK OBAMA No

More drilling isn't going to fix any problems in the long run. Hell, it's hardly going to fix any in the short run. American oil companies have had leases to drill on offshore land for decades now, and have chosen not to do it (probably in order to keep prices high -- more oil in market = lower oil prices, lower profits for oil companies). How is giving them even more land to not drill on going to help?

Will appoint judges who interpret the law not make it
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARAK OBAMA No

This is a very subjective statement -- care to back this up with some evidence?

Served in the US Armed Forces
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARACK OBAMA No

And... who cares. If military service was a necessary precursor to being President, it would've been entered into the constitution. For example: your last President's military "service" involved mostly sitting behind a desk in the US state of Alabama. Big deal.

Amount of time served in the US Senate
JOHN McCAIN 22 YEARS
BARACK OBAMA almost 4 YEARS

Being a Senator also has little to do with being President. Very few Senators have ever been President (only about 15), and some of the best (Lincoln, FDR) were never Senators at all. Thus, amount of time served in the Senate wouldn't necessarily mean someone's going to be a great President.

Will institute a socialized national health care plan
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing. :wtf:

Supports abortion throughout the pregnancy
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

You've got a point here, but this all goes down to personal belief, and has little to do with running a country.

Would pull troops out of Iraq immediately
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

I think 95% of the world here would say that Obama wins that argument.

Supports gun ownership rights
JOHN McCAIN Yes
BARACK OBAMA No

Source? I seem to recall Obama and Biden saying they support gun rights, explicitly. You may have an argument about what's called in America "CCW licenses," but then CCW licenses were never part of the Constitution to begin with.

Proposed programs will mean a huge tax increase
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Taxes are necessary for running a country. A country without taxes would be a shitty one indeed.

Voted against making English the official language
McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

I'd think it'd be quite naive to propose making English the official language of your country at this point when about 13% of your population doesn't even speak it natively. :laugh:

Voted to give Social Security benefits to illegals
JOHN McCAIN No
BARACK OBAMA Yes

Once again, source?

And then a bunch more stuff about Obama raising taxes on the upper crust of society (estate taxes, dividend taxes, capital gains taxes). Boring... :ohwell:

(And by the way, I'm not an Obama supporter, but I love fact checking. :D)

[thoughtdisorder]

Frankly I don't like any of the choices. Just like the last several General elections. Lewis Black summed it up quite nicely; "Face it, when you step into that voting booth you are confronted with two bowls of sh*t, it's just a matter of which one stinks the least". ;)

[Odin Eidolon]

Could be BigE. I dont live in the US so i dont care of the taxes you pay, and i dont know how much you pay/how much you will pay. what i know is that McCain is simply a copy of Bush. Same interests, same politics, same warmongering.
And another thing i know is that Bush is causing and caused lots of problems to our world, and you cant deny this.
You understood, I hope Obama will win.
All i'll say if McCain wins is: Now humanity will get its just deserts.

Four years ago I thought that it was impossible that Americans didnt have understood what Bush was causing. I was wrong.
This time, please, i implore you, think of the future of humanity, not just about yourself and the taxes you have to pay.
Humanity dont deserve a Bush3.


EDIT: oh, and I almost completely agree with mdm-adph's last post

[Rammsteiner]

Could be BigE. I dont live in the US so i dont care of the taxes you pay, and i dont know how much you pay/how much you will pay. what i know is that McCain is simply a copy of Bush. Same interests, same politics, same warmongering.
And another thing i know is that Bush is causing and caused lots of problems to our world, and you cant deny this.
You understood, I hope Obama will win.
All i'll say if McCain wins is: Now humanity will get its just deserts.

Four years ago I thought that it was impossible that Americans didnt have understood what Bush was causing. I was wrong.
This time, please, i implore you, think of the future of humanity, not just about yourself and the taxes you have to pay.
Humanity dont deserve a Bush3.


EDIT: oh, and I almost completely agree with mdm-adph's last post
Ghehe, you think the same as me mostly.

I think it's especially making me sick that everyone hails McCain for being in the army and tortured by VC... So what, that could have happened to anyone, even more soldiers actually died. He's not a hero for surviving, because in the end it's just that. He did not win the war, he did not go rambo and freed his self. And then how bad the VC treated him because he cant lift his arms fully, I'd rather see they broke his neck to be honest.

How clear is it to see? No matter if McCain/Bush solves the economics, they caused it them selves? If they really wanted it to be solved they already recalled all troops. Or they didnt deploy an anti-missile shield in Europe, which at this time is causing problems again. Damn, it's almost like they're turtling in Red Alert 3 and making an unstoppable fire power to destroy everything once they're finally done.

Lets face it, what are the reasons to have troops out right now? Why in Iraq? That was was one big lie in the first place. Why in Afghanistan? Because of Osama? Either he's already dead or he's not even near there. Besides that, there's a lot of questions to be asked why Osama planned 9/11. He didnt just do that for lol, there's a history with Bush Senior and Osama IIRC which messed up.

[Bigjohn]

The biggest flaw in the arguments of mdm-adph and the rest of the Europeans here is that, after years of indoctrination by their states, they have come to believe 2 things:
1 - There is such a thing as Government Money
2 - The state knows best

They also likely belive that corporations pay taxes.

Those are all incorrect.
Government money comes into existence by the state, using it's power of force, to take it from someone who earned it. When this situation exists for the benefit of ALL, it's commonly approved as a good thing - i.e. building roads, maintaining an army for defense, etc.

But to take money from someone who's earned it, for the benefit of another, is theft.

Benjamin Franklin put it quite clearly, the US is NOT a democracy. It's a republic. He said, "A democracy is two wolves and sheep arguing over whats for dinner".

Our government is in place to try to PREVENT the majority in power at any given time from taking from the minority....

It is THEFT to transfer wealth from 5% of Americans for the benefit of 95%, yet that is what Joe Biden and Barack (barry) Obama want to do.

The "inheritance tax" is wrong too. It's a communistic confiscation of the property of one family for the benefit of people who DID NOT work to build their family business or wealth...

Taxes are necessary for running a country. A country without taxes would be a shitty one indeed. No. It would be a very FREE one though. It would be much closer to what our (USA) founding fathers wanted. Taxation without representation is what started this whole thing in 1770's...
I'd think it'd be quite naive to propose making English the official language of your country at this point when about 13% of your population doesn't even speak it natively. That 13% are here illegally, and are not citizens. They need to pack their shit and go home.
Being a Senator also has little to do with being President. Very few Senators have ever been President (only about 15), and some of the best (Lincoln, FDR) were never Senators at all. Thus, amount of time served in the Senate wouldn't necessarily mean someone's going to be a great President.
you know, you're right about that. But Barack voted "present" 90% of the time he was around to vote (and that was not often - he was busy running for president most of his term...). Now, a good number of our presidents have, however, been Govenors.. From that you can extrapolate that Sara Palin has more qualification to be President than Obama!

[Bigjohn]

Ghehe, you think the same as me mostly.

I think it's especially making me sick that everyone hails McCain for being in the army and tortured by VC... So what, that could have happened to anyone, even more soldiers actually died. He's not a hero for surviving, because in the end it's just that. He did not win the war, he did not go rambo and freed his self. And then how bad the VC treated him because he cant lift his arms fully, I'd rather see they broke his neck to be honest.
No, but he refused to give in, he refused to go home, until all his fellow prisioners did too.

How clear is it to see? No matter if McCain/Bush solves the economics, they caused it them selves? If they really wanted it to be solved they already recalled all troops. Or they didnt deploy an anti-missile shield in Europe, which at this time is causing problems again. Damn, it's almost like they're turtling in Red Alert 3 and making an unstoppable fire power to destroy everything once they're finally done.
Umm, the entire economic problem here is brought on by a bill called "the community reinvestment act of 1999". Bill clinton and his cronies hatched this egg. When John McCain tried, 2 years ago, to get some regulation onto this mess, the democrats parading around congress said "There is no problem".... :banghead:

[Polaris573]

Frankly I don't like any of the choices. Just like the last several General elections. Lewis Black summed it up quite nicely; "Face it, when you step into that voting booth you are confronted with two bowls of sh*t, it's just a matter of which one stinks the least". ;)

There are third party options such as Ralph Nader, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr. Most people are just too disenchanted with the election process to believe they have any chance. There was a poll recently that asked a group of people whether they preferred a third party candidate to Obama and McCain, the vast majority said yes. When asked whether they believed a third party candidate had any chance of becoming elected the majority said no. Is it not ironic that a large group of people would not vote for the candidate they prefer because they perceive them as unelectable, yet if they all voted for the third party candidate he/she would have a chance at winning? The electorate needs to free itself from this "lesser of two evils" mindset pushed on it by pop-culture and the media. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil no matter how you look at it. This petty fear that a vote must be cast for the most electable Democrat or Republican in order to prevent the opposing and supremely evil Democrat or Republican from becoming elected must stop as well. It is horribly counterintuitive and illogical. On election day as you walk into the booth and confront your "lesser of two evils" ask yourself, "Will I feel better voting for the candidate I believe in and losing, or voting for a candidate I hate and winning?"

Naturally none of this applies if you believe [Insert Republican or Democrat Here] will make the greatest president ever.

[Bigjohn]

Could be BigE. I dont live in the US so i dont care of the taxes you pay, and i dont know how much you pay/how much you will pay. what i know is that McCain is simply a copy of Bush.
You could not be more wrong. They disagree on MUCH... Very much.

McCain is more of a centrist than Bush...

[Apocolypse007]

When McCain votes with Bush on 4/5 ratio, I would say his views are very much like Bush's.

[Polaris573]

For those of you willing to do homework before voting rather than parroting CNN and Fox News soundbytes here is a website I found extremely informative and useful. It also provides useful information on your congressional members as well, because if you are from a small town like I am then accurate information on them is almost non-existent in your local newspaper.

http://www.votesmart.org/

[bigenuffumbrella]

Respectfully,

All my sources were quoted at the end of my post. I don't have time to respond to each and every rebut you made (which is why I posted my sources ;) ) lunch isn't that long. I merely threw these out to give my opinion and to stir the puddin a little. :)

I will say this though in response to two of your statements that caught my eye:

1 . Taxes are necessary for running a country. A country without taxes would be a shitty one indeed.

I admit taxes are a necessary evil, but if you don't feel like the government get's enough of your pay check already then I'm sorry I can't help you. The lower the taxes the more the government actually collects because people spend more when they have more of their own money to spend. It's a proven concept...and one that JFK embraced himself as he was the last Democratic president who actually lowered taxes.

2. I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing.
Two points here -- 1. How are we going to pay for it? and 2. National health care means government run health care. The government does two things well: collect taxes, and blow shit up. Everything else they suck at. If you'd like to get a glimpse of what hospitals will look like under a national health care plan---go visit a veterans hospital and take a good look. THAT'S what life will be like when health care providers no longer need to compete.

Again, I'm only trying to share my opinion and stir up the debate. I realize the position I hold is unpopular in this forum and I did not come here looking for a fight...only to contribute with my thoughts and to share as much as I am able in the time I have to post-- things the way I see them.

BigE

Ooh, me first, me first -- since even though you didn't state who you support, it's still pretty obvious, just let me check on a few things...


More drilling isn't going to fix any problems in the long run. Hell, it's hardly going to fix any in the short run. American oil companies have had leases to drill on offshore land for decades now, and have chosen not to do it (probably in order to keep prices high -- more oil in market = lower oil prices, lower profits for oil companies). How is giving them even more land to not drill on going to help?

This is a very subjective statement -- care to back this up with some evidence?

And... who cares. If military service was a necessary precursor to being President, it would've been entered into the constitution. For example: your last President's military "service" involved mostly sitting behind a desk in the US state of Alabama. Big deal.

Being a Senator also has little to do with being President. Very few Senators have ever been President (only about 15), and some of the best (Lincoln, FDR) were never Senators at all. Thus, amount of time served in the Senate wouldn't necessarily mean someone's going to be a great President.

I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing. :wtf:

You've got a point here, but this all goes down to personal belief, and has little to do with running a country.

I think 95% of the world here would say that Obama wins that argument.

Source? I seem to recall Obama and Biden saying they support gun rights, explicitly. You may have an argument about what's called in America "CCW licenses," but then CCW licenses were never part of the Constitution to begin with.

Taxes are necessary for running a country. A country without taxes would be a shitty one indeed.

I'd think it'd be quite naive to propose making English the official language of your country at this point when about 13% of your population doesn't even speak it natively. :laugh:

Once again, source?

And then a bunch more stuff about Obama raising taxes on the upper crust of society (estate taxes, dividend taxes, capital gains taxes). Boring... :ohwell:

(And by the way, I'm not an Obama supporter, but I love fact checking. :D)

[thoughtdisorder]

There are third party options such as Ralph Nader, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr. Most people are just too disenchanted with the election process to believe they have any chance. There was a poll recently that asked a group of people whether they preferred a third party candidate to Obama and McCain, the vast majority said yes. When asked whether they believed a third party candidate had any chance of becoming elected the majority said no. Is it not ironic that a large group of people would not vote for the candidate they prefer because they perceive them as unelectable, yet if they all voted for the third party candidate he/she would have a chance at winning? The electorate needs to free itself from this "lesser of two evils" mindset pushed on it by pop-culture and the media. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil no matter how you look at it. This petty fear that a vote must be cast for the most electable Democrat or Republican in order to prevent the opposing and supremely evil Democrat or Republican from becoming elected must stop as well. It is horribly counterintuitive and illogical. On election day as you walk into the booth and confront your "lesser of two evils" ask yourself, "Will I feel better voting for the candidate I believe in and losing, or voting for a candidate I hate and winning?"

Naturally none of this applies if you believe [Insert Republican or Democrat Here] will make the greatest president ever.


Very well put.:)

I've often wondered what would happen if one day every voter in the US woke up and cut their Republican and Democrat voter ID's in half, then registered as an Independent. We could remove a lot of corruption and "fat cats" from Washington with just that simple action. (IMO)

[mdm-adph]

The biggest flaw in the arguments of mdm-adph and the rest of the Europeans here is that, after years of indoctrination by their states, they have come to believe 2 things:

Cool -- now I'm a European. Thanks! :laugh:

But to take money from someone who's earned it, for the benefit of another, is theft.

Benjamin Franklin put it quite clearly, the US is NOT a democracy. It's a republic. He said, "A democracy is two wolves and sheep arguing over whats for dinner".

I can't even begin to describe what's wrong with thinking like this. Try putting down the Ayn Rand books once in a while. ;)

Taxes are not theft. Please stop thinking that. Taxes are willingly paid. Theft is not willing. As most Americans continue to pay their taxes without staging an armed rebellion (which you've done in the past), I assume they're okay with the present level of taxation.

And oh yeah -- Benjamin Franklin and the founders of the Constitution were okay with taxation. It's all in there. Simply saying that "taxation is theft" is very simplistic thinking.

For those of you willing to do homework before voting rather than parroting CNN and Fox News soundbytes here is a website I found extremely informative and useful. It also provides useful information on your congressional members as well, because if you are from a small town like I am then accurate information on them is almost non-existent in your local newspaper.

http://www.votesmart.org/

Thank you for that wonderful site.

Respectfully,
...
2. I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing.
Two points here -- 1. How are we going to pay for it? and 2. National health care means government run health care. The government does two things well: collect taxes, and blow shit up. Everything else they suck at. If you'd like to get a glimpse of what hospitals will look like under a national health care plan---go visit a veterans hospital and take a good look. THAT'S what life will be like when health care providers no longer need to compete.
BigE
If you were to go into a US veterans hospital, you know what you'd find? People receiving health care, without having to fork over money for a bill afterwards.

I think a lot of Americans would love to have that, no matter how sparse or "terrible" the care is.

[iStink]

I get like 10 emails a day from assholes who spam for mccain talking about how obama will ruin the country and he won't solve anything. Then they say stuff like "We need your support NOW more than ever!" and I think to myself OF COURSE they need my support NOW, election time is around the corner. My support isn't gonna be much help AFTER election is it? It's that kind of annoying bs that makes me want to vote for obama.

[trt740]

I get like 10 emails a day from assholes who spam for mccain talking about how obama will ruin the country and he won't solve anything. Then they say stuff like "We need your support NOW more than ever!" and I think to myself OF COURSE they need my support NOW, election time is around the corner. My support isn't gonna be much help AFTER election is it? It's that kind of annoying bs that makes me want to vote for obama.

Hope Obama does get elected because then America will get what it deserves and maybe then they will do their home work, next time, before they elect a activist exstremist to the white house.

[bigenuffumbrella]

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. The idea of Democracy was sickening to our founding fathers--read ANYTHING on the subject by Jefferson, Adams and specifically Ben Franklin. Really read it...look it up...don't just take what you've "heard" --or even what I've said as the way things are...look at what they wrote and read for yourself. Big John's earlier quote was right on:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Ben Franklin

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears NO WHERE in the Bill or Rights or the Constitution. <--check that fact out. NO WHERE. We live in a "democratic society"--small d--in the sense that we all have inalienable rights and the right to free speech...but our form of government is NOT a Democracy.

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too. ;)

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.

Cool -- now I'm a European. Thanks! :laugh:

I can't even begin to describe what's wrong with thinking like this. Try putting down the Ayn Rand books once in a while. ;)

Taxes are not theft. Please stop thinking that. Taxes are willingly paid. Theft is not willing. As most Americans continue to pay their taxes without staging an armed rebellion (which you've done in the past), I assume they're okay with the present level of taxation.

And oh yeah -- Benjamin Franklin and the founders of the Constitution were okay with taxation. It's all in there. Simply saying that "taxation is theft" is very simplistic thinking.



Thank you for that wonderful site.


If you were to go into a US veterans hospital, you know what you'd find? People receiving health care, without having to fork over money for a bill afterwards.

I think a lot of Americans would love to have that, no matter how sparse or "terrible" the care is.

[Duxx]

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. The idea of Democracy was sickening to our founding fathers--read ANYTHING on the subject by Jefferson, Adams and specifically Ben Franklin. Really read it...look it up...don't just take what you've "heard" --or even what I've said as the way things are...look at what they wrote and read for yourself. Big John's earlier quote was right on:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Ben Franklin

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears NO WHERE in the Bill or Rights or the Constitution. <--check that fact out. NO WHERE. We live in a "democratic society"--small d--in the sense that we all have inalienable rights and the right to free speech...but our form of government is NOT a Democracy.

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too. ;)

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.


Unfortunately I only get one "Thank" button. Very Very well said, nobody ever realizes that this is a republic and not a democracy, glad there are a few more out there :)

[proletariandan]

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. The idea of Democracy was sickening to our founding fathers--read ANYTHING on the subject by Jefferson, Adams and specifically Ben Franklin. Really read it...look it up...don't just take what you've "heard" --or even what I've said as the way things are...look at what they wrote and read for yourself. Big John's earlier quote was right on:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Ben Franklin

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears NO WHERE in the Bill or Rights or the Constitution. <--check that fact out. NO WHERE. We live in a "democratic society"--small d--in the sense that we all have inalienable rights and the right to free speech...but our form of government is NOT a Democracy.

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too. ;)

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.



Property (more accurately, expropriated surplus value from private ownership of strategic capital) is theft...taxes are just a way for the more enlightened bourgeoisie to finance an army (among other things) to defend their property, their empire, and keep social revolution at bay.

The reality is that there are many, many more sheep than wolves, and it is the wolves who have run this country, fleecing the working class for 232 years. It should be no surprise the wolves have always been afraid of democracy.

Democracy and plutocracy are the only options; plutocracy was viable until it created and educated its own executioners - its time is running out.

[Polaris573]

The house just passed the bailout (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/business/economy/04bailout.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin).

The Iron Law of Oligarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy).

[Sc1mitar]

Firstly, im a canadian.

I have a small business, and i can tell you this.

The less f*ckin government involvement the better. The lower the taxes the better. Work hard, make your money, enjoy life. Dont be a suck living on gov. assistance cause your ass is too lazy to get a job.

On public healthcare:
public healthcare is great, as long as you are young. As soon as you get older, like 65+, they dont give a fck, because youve already paid them your taxes, then its w/e you can go die. thats what happened to my grandfather, so we flew him out to indiannapolis, and then South Cali for private treatment, which was like right the fck now available, none of this 3 month waiting bullshit we have here.

Why would anyone want a lieing f*ck to run their lives and take their money away is beyond me. Stay away from me Mr politician, i dont want nothing to do w/ you, unless your giving me back some of the moneys ya took.

On that matter, i dont think any of those bastard politicians are good for us. But id vote for the republicans cause atleast they seem to be able to understand free market policy, not this socialist bullsht we have here in Canada.


to all the naysayers, dont worry.
someone once said;
if your 20 and not a socialist, you dont have a heart
if your 40 and not a conservative, you dont have a brain

dont remember but that is about as true as it gets.


-sc1m


ps: they rlly need to build some nuclear powerplants, srsly. nothing like cheap electricity.

[btarunr]

I love how Nader uses the term "Wall Street Crooks" :laugh:

[mdm-adph]

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. [...]

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears [...]


Why are the two concepts of taxation and liberty mutually exclusive in your mind? I don't know if I can help you... :ohwell:

(Good lord -- 90% of your post was basically a big discussion about what is or is not a "democracy." I don't care what you call the government -- "democracy," "republic," -- who cares? We're talking about taxes... I think.)


On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too. ;)

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.

"A bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth," and thus formed their own country, and immediately set about taxing the hell out of its citizens. :laugh:

What's your point?

Did you go to school? You enjoyed the benefits of taxation.

Do you drive on roads? You enjoy the benefits of taxation.

Do you enjoy the Internet? You enjoy the benefits of taxation. :laugh:

Buddy, if you don't want to be taxed, you're more than welcome to go build you a little shack out of logs in the woods somewhere, and live off the grid. Just make sure to stay there and leave the rest of civilization alone.

Taxes are willingly paid -- you pay them by virtue of working and earning wages. If you don't want to get taxed -- stop working. Live in a cave. Kill badgers for food.

I can't think of one civilization that hasn't survived through some sort of taxation. :confused:


to all the naysayers, dont worry.
someone once said;
if your 20 and not a socialist, you dont have a heart
if your 40 and not a conservative, you dont have a brain


...and if you're 50 and haven't learned that the right answer is a healthy mix of both, then you're hopeless. :laugh:

[Nitro-Max]

I think most of the world will be watching how this plays out and who they want as president even though they cant vote America has such a big role and influence on the rest of the world i think everyone has there ideas about who should be president after all negotitations on gas prices for the usa has effects on how much we british pay and we already pay way way more.
Plus the fact that we are close allies and i think well have to work together for some time yet.
The arctic is unclaimed territory and as more land is been revealed by melting snow/ice the more countrys are becoming interested in it because of the natural resources it will have to offer russia has already put a claim to part of it and i think so has the usa bet your life china will follow suite so there could end up being another war over that pretty soon.

[pepsi71ocean]

Hope Obama does get elected because then america will get what it deserves and maybe then they will do their homwork, next time, before they elect a activist exstremist to the white house.

IMO Obama is all smoke and Mirrors, He is a very charismatic, able to get a huge crowd to follow him, however he is full of hot air.

People forget that he is a preecher, and you should read up on his wifes college thesis, its quite racist from what i can read.

What scares me the most is when he went to iraq and afganistan for 2 weeks, and was quotes as saying that the military is unbalanced and we need more equal numbers of citizen to military, in terms of African Americans/ Latinos to Whites, and let me tell you "How do you get more white boys to join the military? you don't you draft them.



The house just passed the bailout (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/business/economy/04bailout.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin).


I think the bill is a total waste. this is the last thing that we need is to bury our selves into more debt, let Darwin Economics follow through, let the weak banks die, and let the strong survive, the market must correct its self by its self, otherwise its a bandied fix to a bigger problem.


Firstly, im a canadian.

I have a small business, and i can tell you this.

The less f*ckin government involvement the better. The lower the taxes the better. Work hard, make your money, enjoy life. Dont be a suck living on gov. assistance cause your ass is too lazy to get a job.


My dad make more than 200,000 a year, and if OBAMA wins he will have to let 2 or 3 employees go, because the taxes that obama will implement on both his corporate and personal income will be a lot. He has a company with over 40 full time employees, this is what obama will do, destroy the economics because he fails to understand that the people who make more than 200,000 a year often are business owners and they control economics more than he can. Raising corporate taxes are not going to help with, but send more jobs overseas.

In terms of heath care its really sucks, but how is Obama going to pay for health care when the country is out of budget enough as it is, adding another 800 million/billion etic to the federal budget isn't going to help.

[mdm-adph]

IMO Obama is all smoke and Mirrors, He is like a HITLER, very charismatic, able to get a huge crowd to follow him, however he is full of hot air.


...and the thread is Godwinnned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law). Thanks for playing, everyone -- mods, feel free to lock the thread.

[pepsi71ocean]

Godwinnned

what does that mean, im confused

[mdm-adph]

what does that mean, im confused

Read the link. It means when someone has to make a comparison involving Hitler or the German Nazi's, then there's nothing left to talk about and a discussion thread is basically over.

[pepsi71ocean]

Read the link. It means when someone has to make a comparison involving Hitler or the German Nazi's, then there's nothing left to talk about and a discussion thread is basically over.

i did read it, but its literature was confusing, and the article wasn't making sense i couldn't draw a comparison, so i edited my original post for wording.

[Kreij]

stop working. Live in a cave. Kill badgers for food.


If he takes your advice, he better not move to Wisconsin.
He'll be in jail in a heartbeat.

[mdm-adph]

If he takes your advice, he better not move to Wisconsin.
He'll be in jail in a heartbeat.

One of the many places where I and environmentalists differ. I couldn't care less about badgers, or horned and spotted owls. :D

[btarunr]

This being a discussion thread to the "weekly poll", there's no way it's going to get locked, at least not until the next poll comes up. However, any nonsensical posts would bring in infractions galore. So if there's nothing worthwhile to post, don't.

[mdm-adph]

This being a discussion thread to the "weekly poll", there's no way it's going to get locked, at least not until the next poll comes up. However, any nonsensical posts would bring in infractions galore. So if there's nothing worthwhile to post, don't.

You know that was a joke about closing the thread, right? ;) Godwin's Law isn't a law of nature, or anything.

[btarunr]

No, I couldn't link that reference to your asking us to close this thread. It didn't even sound sarcastic. Nice read though :laugh:

[TUngsten]

Hope Obama does get elected because then america will get what it deserves and maybe then they will do their homwork, next time, before they elect a activist exstremist to the white house.

Yeah, the republicans have done such a great job for us these last 8 years...I'd take an activist extremist over an ignorant warmongering extremist any day of the week.

And what happens if McCain gets elected, and keels over mid-term? If the words President Palin don't make you think the whole shebang is DOOMED, I don't think there's anything that anyone on earth could say to make you wake up.

ps TRT: spellcheck FTW.

[Kreij]

Srry, Bta, my bad. Won't happen again.

In response to bigenuff', I like to say that I willing pay taxes.
I have no problem with supporting my government.
I do not agree with everything that they do with my money, and I do not like the way they go about taxing us, but that is up to us as voting citizens to correct.

If there were no taxes, there would be no government. With no government there would be anarchy.
Taxes are preferable to anarchy IMO.

People always want less taxes (which is fine with me. I'd like to keep more of my money).
But I also think that many people that want less taxation have no idea what are tax dollars are being used. This is what people should be keenly interested in, and use their vote to pick a candidate (whether federal, state or municipal) who wants to kill off worthless tax-sucking programs and reign in other programs that are spending foolishly.
Reducing the need for tax spending will reduce the need for tax collecting.

[mdm-adph]

Yeah, the republicans have done such a great job for us these last 8 years...I'd take an activist extremist over an ignorant warmongering extremist any day of the week.

ps: spellcheck FTW.

Seriously, there's an argument for Obama, people of America -- give him a chance. He can't do any worse than what you're used to -- at best, he'd be like Morgan Freeman, wise, brave; at worst, he'll be like Jimmy Carter, honestly meaning well (regardless of what happens). If you don't like what he does, vote him out.

[Bigjohn]

"A bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth," and thus formed their own country, and immediately set about taxing the hell out of its citizens.

What's your point?

Did you go to school? You enjoyed the benefits of taxation.
Public schools are little more than tools that the government uses to indoctrinate future statists. If you home school or send your kid to a private school, you don't get your "taxes" back, so it's theft (paying for non-delivered goods...)

Do you drive on roads? You enjoy the benefits of taxation. Through the interstate commerce clause of the constitution, this is arguably a "constitutional" function of government, but the country existed before governments raped peoples wallets to give their brother-in-law a roads contract... People used to do it themselves. Put one where they needed it.

Do you enjoy the Internet? You enjoy the benefits of taxation.howzat? saywhatnow? You're way out on the limb there. Everything that the internet is has NOTHING to do with taxes, except that the government gets to grab another $4.00 from me every month for the my having the audacity to HAVE the service...

Buddy, if you don't want to be taxed, you're more than welcome to go build you a little shack out of logs in the woods somewhere, and live off the grid. Just make sure to stay there and leave the rest of civilization alone. well, let's just get completely silly, why don't we... but then... the Government "claims" all that land... and, when you want to be all by yourself, they'll send a goon squad to get you for non-payment of taxes or something... end up killing you and your friends, maybe even your kids...

Taxes are willingly paid -- you pay them by virtue of working and earning wages. If you don't want to get taxed -- stop working. Live in a cave. Kill badgers for food.
Umm. wow. So, you belive that the STATE owns you? You work, they get their cut, you get yours? that's just wrong. People worked BEFORE the government had withholding taxes. They filled out a postcard and sent in a check for their .5% tax...

I can't think of one civilization that hasn't survived through some sort of taxation. Well, the romans did not tax as much... at least not the citizens of rome. They conquered and pillaged, and made the subjects slaves.

Speaking of slaves... what was it, the 13th amendment to the constitution that abolished slavery.. Funny how they brought it right back with the 16th... now, every living person owes a part of their life to the state...

[proletariandan]

there's an argument for Obama, people of America -- give him a chance. He can't do any worse than what you're used to -- at best, he'd be like Morgan Freeman, wise, brave

:roll:

[GSG-9]

I thought Politics were a no no on tpu. ;)

[trt740]

Seriously, there's an argument for Obama, people of America -- give him a chance. He can't do any worse than what you're used to -- at best, he'd be like Morgan Freeman, wise, brave; at worst, he'll be like Jimmy Carter, honestly meaning well (regardless of what happens). If you don't like what he does, vote him out.

so your saying he can act , I believe that.

[trt740]

Yeah, the republicans have done such a great job for us these last 8 years...I'd take an activist extremist over an ignorant warmongering extremist any day of the week.

And what happens if McCain gets elected, and keels over mid-term? If the words President Palin don't make you think the whole shebang is DOOMED, I don't think there's anything that anyone on earth could say to make you wake up.

ps TRT: spellcheck FTW.

Well didn't realize this was english class so thx for those kind words and I never said Mccain was better. Your showing ,your I'm better than you liberal side.

P.S try and be a little nicer and less arrogant.

[Rammsteiner]

Benjamin Franklin put it quite clearly, the US is NOT a democracy. It's a republic. He said, "A democracy is two wolves and sheep arguing over whats for dinner".
Yeah, it was a long time ago clear USA is not a democracy in various ways.

Our government is in place to try to PREVENT the majority in power at any given time from taking from the minority....
Nice theory, but your government is a powerfull minority and does not care about anything else vs the majority of the rest of the world, that's right then?

It is THEFT to transfer wealth from 5% of Americans for the benefit of 95%, yet that is what Joe Biden and Barack (barry) Obama want to do.
Although I dont care since I dont live there, it's not a theft. It's called a theft by the theory of one guy/group.

It's a bit like Bush called some pipes materials for mass destruction weapons in Iraq, it's just a theory. Or that Israelian freightplane who crashed in Amsterdam was just empty, another nice theory.

The "inheritance tax" is wrong too. It's a communistic confiscation of the property of one family for the benefit of people who DID NOT work to build their family business or wealth...
But why is it wrong, because it's communistic or that it taxes working people to suit non-working people? Besides that, its called socialism really, it has barely to do with communism. Yet I do not aprove of this tax, but that doesnt matter that you put it in a wrong light.


That 13% are here illegally, and are not citizens. They need to pack their shit and go home.
Seems like USA has a very good immigration thing then:roll:

you know, you're right about that. But Barack voted "present" 90% of the time he was around to vote (and that was not often - he was busy running for president most of his term...). Now, a good number of our presidents have, however, been Govenors.. From that you can extrapolate that Sara Palin has more qualification to be President than Obama!
So being a governor makes someone qualified for being a president? After Bush has been there for 8 years? And this does not raise any questions by you?

No, but he refused to give in, he refused to go home, until all his fellow prisioners did too.
So what, so could any other soldier have done that. It shows more he read too many comics than he's an hero of any sort.

Umm, the entire economic problem here is brought on by a bill called "the community reinvestment act of 1999". Bill clinton and his cronies hatched this egg. When John McCain tried, 2 years ago, to get some regulation onto this mess, the democrats parading around congress said "There is no problem".... :banghead:
Like McCain said there's no problem? Also the major problems began when USA started the war against terrorism. We know crisii are a cycle, but compare dollar vs Euro, they were like 1:1 just as Bush began, and now we're looking at a whole other numbers. In a crisis it's globally about the same impact. Now the major statue of capitalism falls on its nose.

But well, your vote is quite clear though:nutkick:

[Bigjohn]

McCain sponsored a bill 2 years ago to stop the fraud in the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac corps. This is when the dems were parading and saying 'we don't need that, there is no problem"...

[das müffin mann]

I thought Politics were a no no on tpu. ;)

where did you come from :eek:
long time no see

[trt740]

McCain sponsored a bill 2 years ago to stop the fraud in the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac corps. This is when the dems were parading and saying 'we don't need that, there is no problem"...

Barney Frank our fearless leader (or Queen)

[Polaris573]

I thought Politics were a no no on tpu. ;)

I cannot think of when that has ever been the case. True, political threads almost always get locked, but that is because people cannot resist fighting and calling each other names after a length of time.

[niko084]

McCain sponsored a bill 2 years ago to stop the fraud in the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac corps. This is when the dems were parading and saying 'we don't need that, there is no problem"...

Lol.... Ya get that... Farmer/Laborer isn't part of the DFL anymore...

Obama is too extremist for me.

McCain may is so close to democrat the majority of the republican party dislikes him.

But I will take experience over anything, especially when one guy is pretty much running his campaign off personality.... Got my attention in the start, but that was where it ended.

And Obama's wanting to skip out of the congressional vote/discussions about the federal bailout to have a stupid debate really shows how much he lacks in responsibility in his current position.

Can't say who would be better, but I know who I'm more comfortable with.

[intel igent]

I thought Politics were a no no on tpu. ;)

where did you come from :eek:
long time no see

he was using his pseudonym :laugh:

"free man on land" <<<< inform yourself ;)

[Nitro-Max]

I like obama but i would'nt say no to a bit of sarah palin if you know what i mean!!:laugh:

[pepsi71ocean]

I like obama but i would'nt say no to a bit of sarah palin if you know what i mean!!:laugh:

:roll::toast:

[CyberVisions]

If you were to go into a US veterans hospital, you know what you'd find? People receiving health care, without having to fork over money for a bill afterwards.

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE NON-VETERAN. You have absolutely no clue whatsoever as to what it's like to be a Vet after having made a completely downright ignorant statement like that. Veterans don't pay for their health care? Yeah, right. What do you think it cost them to get into the hospital dipstick? What's really bad is that advances in military medicine now means you could be "lucky" not to be KIA outright in battle - you could lose all 4 limbs and more and still be "saved" by military doctors.

My 8 years of Active Duty in the Submarine Force, months spent away from my family, years in the Reserve at the Pentagon, Desert Shield, Desert Storm. Yeah, it didn't cost me a damn thing.

Sorry, the cost of "free" military health care was finally just a bit too high. One day, God forbid, if you ever have kids, I hope you experience long absences from your family, and having your daughter run to the other side of a room because she doesn't know who you are after you return. Maybe you need that experience to open your eyes. Of course in my experience, liberal buttwipes like you and other Obama backers generally tend to take their freedoms (especially speech) too much for granted, leaving to the defense of the country to people like McCain and myself, along with countless others who know what the true cost of military benefits really are. But you'd be the first to be screaming for military help if a Hadji was beating on your door or raping your wife and kids.

As a Vet who's been on disability for the last 9 years, and has had 3 major spinal operations the last 12 years, I can honestly say I'm happy to use my wife's medical rather then military or anything government sponsored. It was that "great military healthcare system" that got me DQ'd from Submarine duty based on a faulty test - but in the military, doctors are God, unlike in the civilian world where you can happily tell them to piss off if you don't like their screwed up diagnosis.

I personally despise Obama and everything he stands for. Those of you who have never tasted what it's like to lose your freedoms and liberty will soon know if you elect this pretender to the White House in a wartime environment. This idiot wants to be POTUS, and he's only got 3 years of any kind of "experience"? You people are nothing short of downright insane and gullible to the point that you believe everything the mainstream media tells you. Of course that usually goes with not having any real-world experience - only armchair experience and no clue but what MTV tells you.

Many of you may not like Bush, but that's usually because you have no clue as to the real strategic reasons we're in the Middle East - and no, it's not just because of oil, although that's a big part of it. And at least Bush, unlike you and others here, realized that as long as the Hadji's are fighting the "Great Satan" over in Iraq, they'd be less focused on attacking us here while we've focused on repairing the damage that Clinton did to our National Security apparatus. My wife works at one of the Postal facilities here in the Washington, D.C. area - she knew and lost friends during the Anthrax attacks here, and I shudder when I think it could've been her. Even though the attacker was proven to be a US citizen living about 20 miles up the road from where I live, the fact is that he used 9/11 as cover for his attacks.

The economy? Yeah, it's bad now, started when, about 2 years ago? Up until then, we had a great economy. Let's see, what happened 2 years ago? Oh yeah - the Democrats retook control of Congress and wiped out all the economic gains that Bush had made! You know why? Because they're willing to do absolutely anything at your or my expense to seize total control of the government. And with willing propaganda sponges like you and others here, they might just do it.

Many of you also don't know or realize that most countries' economies are based on strategic minerals and materials that cannot be found on their own soil - they have to be imported by ship or train. Shipping of strategic minerals is the main reason the US Navy exists - to keep those things flowing to the country so we can survive. Those carriers need fuel - Iran knows, as Saddam did, that whoever controls the flow of Mideast oil controls the strategic interests of most countries on this planet, not just the US.

You complain now of Bush's strategy and policies - I'd bet you be howling if you weren't able to turn on your computer and voice your BS on these and other forums, or couldn't turn on your stereo. Oh, that's right - you wouldn't be able to even buy them because you couldn't get to work, since the economy would've collapsed. I wonder if you, like most, dislike Bush because of what you actually know or the lies fed to you by the media about what they want you to believe about him. Actually, you've already answered that question.

Of course, NObama and his leftist buddies have all but seen to that - they blame Bush for the Fannie and Freddie screwup, but the responsibility for that is squarely on the Democrats shoulders, specifically Clinton's repeal of Glass-Steagall in '99:

http://tinyurl.com/2r7mje

The Democrats have literally gone off the deep end, lying, illegally raising money, even pushing an unqualified super-leftist for their POTUS candidate - anything to get total control. These people are so arrogant they even blow off Supreme Court decisions that they don't want to believe in, but are the first to file suit if it's a ruling they do believe in. It's taking Congressional action to force the D.C. government to recognize the recent 2nd Amendment ruling that invalidates old D.C. gun laws. The DC government tried to legislate the ruling away, but Congress is smart enough not to let them get away with it.

You think Bush lied about Iraq? Sorry dude - the only lies about Iraq and anything else have come from the left and the media. You want the truth - go to Michael Yon's blog and read about what really happened there and what's happening now in Afghanistan:

http://tinyurl.com/4en394

We turned over control of Iraq to the Iraqi government in June; just 3 weeks ago we scored what is considered the biggest victory over Al Qaeda since we've been fighting them. They've been reduced to a non-entity in Iraq, and violence there is at an all time low. But you don't hear about that, do you? In fact, most Americans had to get that info from British news wires, as US mainstream media didn't want to publish anything that would make NOBama look bad. I'd bet cash money you and most people here don't even know about either of those facts.

One of the things the Democrats have harped on for years (more lies about Bush, rather than Bush lies) is the "Bush lied about WMD" BS. No he didn't. In fact, if it weren't for Bush, the Iranians probably would have their hands on enough Uranium yellowcake to make several nukes.

The Democrat's "Bush Lied" BS stems from a 2003 State of the Union address in which he cited an intelligence report about Saddam looking to get more Uranium yellowcake from Africa. Their "proof" was an Italian report that showed their intelligence to be faulty on the issue. The problem with that argument is that Bush wasn't referring to any Italian intel - he was referring to credible British intelligence that confirmed that Iraquis were in fact talking to the Nigerian government about obtaining more yellowcake material. (for those of you who don't know about yellowcake, it's un-enriched uranium that can be enriched to weapons-grade material by processing it through a centrifuge). Even Factcheck.org acknowledges this, and they're one of the most liberal mouthpieces on the planet.

What actually happened (and I won't tell you how I know this) is that Saddam never intended to buy any more yellowcake than he already had (about 55 tons). His gamble was that if he faked trying to obtain more, the Allies would believe he did in fact have nukes and would use them. What he never counted on was an invasion - his gamble backfired in about as big a way as possible.

That Saddam's yellowcake material was being secretly guarded by U.S. forces since the beginning of the invasion was unknown until just a few weeks ago, when it was finally removed from Iraq and sent to a Canadian firm. Of course that wasn't covered by the mainstream media either - even though it was known that Saddam had Uranium yellowcake, it wasn't widely known publicly, and after the invasion it was guarded closely for fear it would be targeted either by Iran or Al Qaeda.

Removing Saddam and stabilizing Iraq with a more western-friendly government has always been one of the main focuses of the war, as Iran is a much bigger threat. Unlike Saddam, who wasn't able to obtain the kind of centrifuges necessary to enrich Uranium to weapons-grade material, Iran already has those kinds of centrifuges, and their talk of a "civilian nuclear program" is about as truthful as North Korea's pledge that theirs is entirely peaceful. Don't forget that the Korean War was never fully resolved; only an armistice was signed and a DMZ created.

What really gets me is that less than a week after the Al Qaeda victory by Allied forces, Biden had the unmitigated gall to stand up on national TV and state that the US is "bogged down" in Iraq. The anti-war left is doing and saying anything and everything to try and show Iraq as the biggest foreign policy blunder in US history, and idiots like you are actually buying into it even though we've been successful there. Biden's an even bigger buttwipe than NObama is. How do I know? My daughter's boss - his wife is Biden's scheduler, and living in the DC area for over 30 years you get to know jerks like Biden. She doesn't like him, and she's a lot more liberal than most.

Strange that Biden's known plagiarism problems haven't hit the news like Chappaquiddick used to follow Ted Kennedy around. Oh, that's right - the media doesn't want people like you who aren't old enough to remember inconvenient facts like that to know.

People forget that during the '92 election, the head of a large media organization admitted publicly that the only reason they were backing Clinton is that he had "more skeletons in his closet" and that his past would eventually catch up with him and make for more news. This AH said the only reason to back Clinton was to make more money off of him. It's the same with NObama, and if you and others that are blindly following the NObama banner can't see that, you're more ignorant than your statement about Vet health care implies that you are.

NObama and Biden are in debt to the extreme anti-war left and the mainstream media, who have done everything and lied to try and sell defeat in Iraq to the American people and the rest of the globe. You and others have obviously bought into that BS they're selling, because they know that people like you don't bother checking facts - you just listen to whatever your told. People who have no experience or who don't understand why they're promoting something or someone radical have a hard time explaining just why it is they're supporting what they're supporting.

All you've done is spout propaganda here on these forums, both campaign and from whatever recruiting pamphlet you got from the military. It's obvious you have no experience with the subjects you promote or you'd be able to back that propaganda with compelling arguments. You think NObama's tax plan will work? This idiot is talking about high taxes on corporations. You know what that means? Lots of layoffs - companies don't give up profits - they're in business to make money. If they have to shell out more to the government, they'll cut costs the easy way, by shutting down divisions with marginal profit. The only way Clinton was able to appear successful is that he had the benefit of Bush Sr's economic plan when he came to office - it takes several years for any major changes to affect the economy, and he reaped those changes Bush made after he was elected. Clinton was at least smart enough to leave some things alone, except for Glass-Steagall. He even admitted the Democrats were responsible for Fannie and Freddie just last week on ABC - guess his age is giving him cause to rethink his legacy of failed National Security and BJ's.

Another thing that shows the gall of the Democrats - even though they're largely responsible for the Fannie/Freddie meltdown, the "bailout plan" proposed is being inundated with pork-barrel, high-dollar pet Congressional projects tacked on to it.

National Security - something no one wants to think about when talking about NObama because he has no experience with it at all except what he's told to say. The Mideast war has been going on since 1979, before many of you were even born or knew where the Mideast is. I'll bet the majority of you can't even remember or don't know how we got involved there to begin with. I'll give you a hint: it was during Reagan's first term, an it involved the USSR.

Recently, a refugee wrote an interesting story to the Editor of a newspaper about another young, up and coming politician much like Obama who made many of the same promises. Here's an excerpt from his letter:

"When the young leader spoke eloquently and passionately and denounced the old system, the press fell in love with him. They never questioned who his friends were or what he really believed in. When he said he would help the farmers and the poor and bring free medical care and education to all, everyone followed. When he said he would bring justice and equality to all, everyone said, 'Praise the Lord.' And when the young leader said, 'I will be for change and I'll bring you change,' everyone yelled, 'Viva Fidel!

But nobody asked about the change, so by the time the executioner's guns went silent, the people's guns had been taken away.
By the time everyone was equal, they were equally poor, hungry, and oppressed.
By the time everyone received their free education, it was worth nothing.
By the time the press noticed, it was too late, because they were now working for him.
By the time the change was finally implemented, Cuba had been knocked down a couple of notches to Third-World status.
By the time the change was over, more than a million people had taken to boats, rafts, and inner tubes.
You can call those who made it ashore anywhere else in the world the most fortunate Cubans.

And now I'm back to the beginning of my story.
'Luckily, we would never fall in America for a young leader who promised change without asking, what change? How will you carry it out? What will it cost America?
'Would we?'"

Manuel Alvarez, Jr.
Richmond Times-Dispatch, Monday, July 7, 2008
Verified by TruthorFiction.com, August 2008

Mr. Alvarez escaped Communist Cuba in 1968, and the person he's talking about is of course Fidel Castro.

It's obvious many of you who support Obama so blindly never experienced life during the Cold War. After seeing Clinton and now the likes of Obama, there are many days I wish the USSR was still around - at least it was easier for people to know who the bad guys were.
I wouldn't liken Obama to Castro though; I liken him to someone else, who, like Obama, was a much better orator, equally able to sway the populace over to his way of thinking. His name was Adolf Hitler.

A lot of people who are blindly supporting Obama believe he can make their lives better. The majority of people in the US don't know and have never seen what real poverty is. If you live in anything other than a mud or cardboard hut and have running water, you're not impoverished.

One of my most vivid recollections in Iran was when we visited a remote village near the Soviet border in the north near the Caspian Sea. Even though these people had nothing, they treated us like honored guests, even giving my parents a set of copper pitchers that was obviously worth much to them, but in their culture one does not refuse such things. (However, I wouldn't recommend the fresh goat cheese, regardless of culture or not...). Walking outside, their were deep gutters near the dirt road that had stagnant water in it. There was a small boy playing in it, and an older man was actually washing a plate in it, while a filthy mouse was swimming in the water nearby, making his way through the trash in the water.

It was this kind of poverty that led the Shah of Iran to modernize his country too fast - the result of that was that when Khomeini came back to Iran from exile in Paris, he was welcomed with open arms by everyone. 30 years later, Khomeini's Islamic hatred has spread like a virus around the globe, using the US as Hitler used the Jews in WWII; scapegoats for any problem the poor have, until the country was in control by extremists.

The Muslim culture of many Mideast countries are 12th century minded tribes living in the 21st century, and who would like nothing more than to bring the world back to 12th century standards, even the extremists in Saudi Arabia who would love to oust the ruling family. Unlike a lot of people here, I can actually say I've lived in Tehran, and I know the people of Iran. U.S. Intelligence recently caught Iran putting a mobile missile launch platform (truck based missile carrier) inside the hold of a cargo vessel, to test whether or not they could successfully launch a missile with the platform in launch configuration inside of the cargo hold way. The test was successful.

For those of you that don't understand, what that means is that if they had access to a small nuke or biological weapon, they could mobile vehicle missile launcher, put it on a cargo vessel, sit off the coast of any country with a 3 mile limit and lob it toward whatever city they chose to hate that week. Right now, it's Washington, but it could always change. Tracing such a vessel would be extremely difficult as well. All it would take is a high altitude EMP burst over a strategic city and we'd be back riding horses. The only ones who wouldn't be affected in the U.S. are the Amish.

As I said before, my daughter was as liberal as some of you here on these forums, having voted liberal since she was eligible to vote. However, she's been working at a lobbying firm in D.C. the past year, and getting a real education about how things really are on Capitol Hill. She's learning from experience what Obama and the Democrats are truly about. Maybe that's something the rest of you should do before blindly backing leftist propaganda.

Of course if you want to live like a 12th Century shepherd, or you have Amish aspirations, then you'd better get used to a shepherd's crook or a horse and buggy with a long beard and lots of manual labor rather than a PC or anything else referred to on this site because if the anti-war liberals take control of the government, it won't be too much longer before we're attacked again. As I said, all it would take is a well placed EMP burst to roll back all technological gains. And if you think our enemies would just stand by and let us sit here without doing anything, you're really naive.

And you should prepare to get used to a much different lifestyle also - Muslim men have a saying: "Boys are for pleasure, women are for babies".

You and your Obama supporting buddies should fit in nicely.

[Polaris573]

State your opinion without insults please.

[Tatty_One]

Damn, sometimes, just sometimes, it really is easier to be a Brit! :eek:

[intel igent]

Damn, sometimes, just sometimes, it really is easier to be a Brit! :eek:

being canadian is the easiest......

side note : and out come the multi user acct people! hide they are growing!

[Tatty_One]

being canadian is the easiest......

Why......thats just too close! :laugh:

[intel igent]

Why......thats just too close! :laugh:

you're not allowed to laugh. you're british.

[niko084]

Why......thats just too close! :laugh:

Indeed. Europe FTW!

[NastyHabits]

The choice is simple: Do you want a man who came from nowhere to graduate at the top of his class at Harvard Law, or do you want a man who got into Annapolis because his daddy was an admiral and then graduated 5th from the bottom?

Personally, I want a really smart guy in the white house. The last time we had a smart guy in there (Clinton and Gore were both Rhodes scholars), we had the longest and greatest period of peace and prosperity in our nation's history.

For those right-wingers who whine about big government and taxes, look what unfettered free market capitalism has gotten us. We just nationalized the largest insurance company in the world, and we are in the process of nationalizing our banks! This is called Socialism! The last country that nationalized its banks was Sweden -- an avowedly socialist country. The lesson is clear, if you don't want to live in a socialist country, vote for Obama.

[Bigjohn]

Then elect me. My ACT test score was 31 (at age 17) and my IQ is 181... Both higher than Obama, and I'm not a freaking socialist.

If you make stupid choices in your life, like dropping out of school and having 3 babies by age 21, that's not my fault, nor is it my problem. I have my own family to raise so shut your yap about not being able to raise a family on minimum wage - it's your choices that got you there, not mine.

[das müffin mann]

tbh at this point i would rather vote of you than the clowns we have to choose from, well they each may have their strengths i don't feel comfortable with either in office

[TUngsten]

Your showing ,your I'm better than you liberal side.


What? I'm sorry, but I cannot decode that statement.

Regardless, I'm not trying to be arrogant, I just can't understand why you'd call Obama an extremist. Activist, perhaps. But extremist? All you're telling me is that you have no idea what extremism is, and how to identify an extremist.

Hint: extremists blew up the Twin Towers....

If being liberal means I don't want George Bush limiting my rights to free speech and due processes, and being allowed to torture me if he feels like it, then call me liberal. If being a liberal means I disapprove of my President lying to me about supposed information that lead us to a war that has drained our resources and has caused us to borrow TRILLIONS of $ from China, then call me a liberal.

I'm not jumping up and down for Obama. But jesus, how completely fucked up does everything have to get for someone like you to see someone like him as a much better choice than the completely incompetent and possibly criminal administration we've had for the last 8 years?

Seriously, I'd like to know.

[niko084]

I just can't understand why you'd call Obama an extremist.
Hint: extremists blew up the Twin Towers....

Obama isn't an extremist to the point of terrorism, but he is an extremist to the democratic views, he is nowhere anywhere near middle line, he is as democratic and a democrat can be.

If it's one thing pretty much everyone can agree on is that any type of extremist "can" be dangerous for a number of reasons, and it doesn't really matter in which way they are.

I know life time vote ALL democrat for everything farmers, teachers, etc that completely refuse to vote for Obama simply because he is so extreme.

On the other hand I know hardcore republicans that refuse to vote for McCain because he is too close to a democrat.

[DaedalusHelios]

Barack Obama is not an extremist. Nothing he has done or said, indicates he is.

And to compare Obama to David Duke, is like GW Bush to Hitler(for the conquest of multiple nations), Or McCain to Stalin because of his pro-war (no matter where it takes us). Its ridiculous to believe these things.

Look to sources without spin, rather than sources that tell you what you want to hear, or it will make anybody out of touch to the point of stupidity. Fact check what you hear and read, to make sure you aren't just reiterating propaganda. That goes for everyone.

I use LexisNexis for fact checking. Its the most indepth option out there. Its available at almost every university. Its the Gold standard in research. Link ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis

[das müffin mann]

well said

also helios i like the new avatar

[trt740]

Barack Obama is not an extremist. Nothing he has done or said, indicates he is.

And to compare Obama to David Duke, is like GW Bush to Hitler(for the conquest of multiple nations), Or McCain to Stalin because of his pro-war (no matter where it takes us). Its ridiculous to believe these things.

Look to sources without spin, rather than sources that tell you what you want to hear, or it will make anybody out of touch to the point of stupidity. Fact check what you hear and read, to make sure you aren't just reiterating propaganda. That goes for everyone.

I use LexisNexis for fact checking. Its the most indepth option out there. Its available at almost every university. Its the Gold standard in research. Link ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis


how do you figure you need to read who trained him, a leftist who invented community organizing throught extremest behavior, and some of the things hes been involved in, just because you make a statement doesn't mean it is true. Read his wifes diary and see if you thinks shes not a exremetist and racist.

[niko084]

I like my political test results-

You agree with Republicans on some issues and Democrats on others, while rejecting the blind, naked partisanship of both sides. You base your vote on issues rather than ideology and principle rather than party, which makes you the quintessential swing voter the media loves to fawn over.

[trt740]

Barack Obama is not an extremist. Nothing he has done or said, indicates he is.

And to compare Obama to David Duke, is like GW Bush to Hitler(for the conquest of multiple nations), Or McCain to Stalin because of his pro-war (no matter where it takes us). Its ridiculous to believe these things.

Look to sources without spin, rather than sources that tell you what you want to hear, or it will make anybody out of touch to the point of stupidity. Fact check what you hear and read, to make sure you aren't just reiterating propaganda. That goes for everyone.

I use LexisNexis for fact checking. Its the most indepth option out there. Its available at almost every university. Its the Gold standard in research. Link ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis

Bills clinton was asked that exact question and could not give a good answer about why voting for B.O .was any different than voting for David Duke.


A Conversation With Bill Clinton
Wednesday, September 24, 2008

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GretaWire.com


Former President Bill Clinton went 'On the Record' with Greta on a variety of topics.
This is a rush transcript from "On the Record ," September 23, 2008. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: Tonight, former president Bill Clinton goes "On the Record." He talks about everything tonight -- his Clinton Global Initiative, Senator Obama, even Reverend Wright, Senator McCain, Senator Clinton, powerful women, spouses to political figures, Alaska governor Sarah Palin and her husband, "First Dude" Todd Palin, and so much more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Mr. President, nice to see you, sir.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you, Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, it's always fun. It's been a year since the last time we talked about the Clinton Global Initiative, and everybody in New York is here to talk about it, to see where -- what it's done in a year and also to be inspired by next year. So what's the report?

RelatedColumn Archive
A Conversation With Bill Clinton'Trash' Talking: Columnist Feels Backlash for Palin CommentsGingrich: $700B Bailout 'Essentially Wrong'Rush Limbaugh on Obama's Controversial Political Ad, McCain, Palin and MoreRove's Take: Biden vs. Palin and the Electoral CollegeFull-page Interview Archive

Video
Watch: Clinton on White House Race and More Watch: Clinton on the 'First Dude' Links
Clinton Global Initiative Web Site Show Info
Airs Weekdays at 10 p.m. ET
E-mail the Show: ontherecord@foxnews.com Greta Van Susteren's Bio Read the GretaWire Interview Archive Greta's Pod Cast CLINTON: Well, the report is we now have a thousand commitments made by probably 1,500, 1,600 people and organizations. They operate these commitments in 150 countries and they are helping 200 million people in economics, helping people escape poverty, in fighting climate change, and health care and education and in reconciliation areas. Of those thousands, 240 have been completely committed -- completed. They're over.

VAN SUSTEREN: Meaning paid?

CLINTON: Yes. Everybody's paid the money. Everybody's done the time. We will have at this meeting displays around the public areas showing people the results of those that are totally finished. And we'll have ongoing updates, too, of the ones that are still in progress.

But a lot of these commitments are multi-year commitments involving a lot of people. So, so far, I can say that the people are keeping their commitments, And there are a lot of people alive, kids alive, kids getting an education, villages getting clean water, all kinds of energy products to fight global warming and help save money and a lot of -- a very large number of micro-credit programs helping poor people to get credit so they can go to work.

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, what I like most about it isn't just sort of the money contributions, which are important, but the innovative ideas.

CLINTON: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: Like, last year was the merry-go-round, I think, that was when the kids went around the merry-go-round ...

CLINTON: To pump water.

VAN SUSTEREN: They pumped water. I mean, it's the ideas, as well.

CLINTON: Well, see, one of the things -- you know, we don't have many speeches. We were going to have a couple this time just because of the unusual nature of the moment, so close to a national campaign. But we don't -- and the ones that are given are always, like, five minutes, ten minutes at the outside. This is mostly a conversation.

And the smaller working groups, I think, are the very best thing about it because people sit down and they come up with innovative ideas, or they bring something they're doing, and then all of a sudden, other people want to help them. And it's really been incredibly rewarding.

And we have also every year worked hard to try to let people participate who don't have a lot of money but may have time or skills or an idea. Or if they want to give a little bit of money, they can go onto the Internet to Mycommitment.org, our commitment site, and make a commitment. And they can also follow the CGI over the Internet. We're going to Webcast it. So it's good.

VAN SUSTEREN: I don't think people realize, too, that, you know, we're very lucky in this country, or a lot of people in this country are, is but for a small amount of money, like, something like even malaria -- you know, it doesn't take a lot to...

CLINTON: Nothing.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... To change people's lives.

CLINTON: Absolutely. You can, you know -- for just a few dollars, you can save somebody's life for a year from malaria. You can even provide AIDS medication to a child for a year for $60 now, which is, you know, one tenth of what it was when I started trying to whittle these prices down. You can, for 50 cents to $1, get one of the Procter and Gamble clean water packets and give a family a big pitcher or a vat of water that might last them a week. I mean, the things that we think of as necessary to life that other people don't have can be provided for relatively small amounts of money.

VAN SUSTEREN: How much...

CLINTON: And there are lots of other examples.

VAN SUSTEREN: How much time are you spending on the road doing this? I mean, how -- how much of your attention?

CLINTON: Well, now that the campaign is over, I do as near to full- time as I can. I want -- I'm working toward the day when I'll be completely dividing my time between the Clinton Global Initiative and the activities of my own foundation.

Watch: Greta's Interview With Bill Clinton, Pt. 1 | Pt. 2

You know, we have a big AIDS project, a big childhood obesity project in America, a huge global warming project in 40 cities on six continents, and a major economic development project in countries that have mining, where we're trying to redo the economy and make them sustainable, and lots of other things.

And the third thing I have is the School of Public Service around my library at the university in Arkansas. And I'm moving as quick as I can to be full-time on all of that.

And I'm -- I will never again, I don't think, be as involved in any kind of political activity as I was when Hillary was running. And ever since the campaign is over, I have moved aggressively to get back in, get ready for CGI, and get my other foundation stuff going.

VAN SUSTEREN: Somehow, I don't believe it that you're not going to get back involved in a campaign, but...

CLINTON: Well I mean, I worked -- you know, I worked a little for Senator Kerry in 2004, and we had the congressional elections in 2006. People asked me to show up, and I tried to help them. I'll always do a little of that. But this is, by and large, my life now. This is what I like to do and it's what I think I should be doing because I can make a unique contribution here.

VAN SUSTEREN: Now, you mentioned the campaign, so that's a door opening, as far as I see it. I might sneak into it. I know that you support Senator Obama.

CLINTON: I do.

VAN SUSTEREN: And -- but let me ask you about Senator McCain. Would he be bad for the country?

CLINTON: Well, I don't think we should talk like that. As you know, I've made it -- my admiration for him quite clear. I like him. I admire him. I'm particularly grateful to him because he made it -- he and Senator Bob Kerrey and Senator Chuck Robb and Senator John Kerry and a few others made it possible for me to normalize relations with Vietnam, which was a big deal for Americans and for our country's psychological wellbeing and for our long-term position in Asia. And he's done a lot of other good things.

I think on the two major issues facing Americans today -- how we're going to bring this economy back and make it -- the benefits broadly shared again and create jobs again, and how are we going to restore America's standing the world -- I think Senator Obama and Senator Biden have better - - markedly better positions, and I think it'd be better for our country.

I think that, in general, Democrats produce more broadly shared prosperity. There's a new book out called, "Unequal Democracy," by a professor at Princeton named Larry Bartels, who hadn't voted since 1984 because he doesn't want it to cloud his judgments. And he voted for President Reagan in 1984, but he says that if the Democrats had held the White House the last eight years, the median family income would be 6 percent higher today than it is, that, basically, we just produce more broadly shared prosperity.

I don't think there's any question, if you look at the Obama energy plan, the education plan, and especially there's stark, stark differences in the health care plan, that those things would be better for America.

VAN SUSTEREN: I guess the thing is that, you know, there are so many experts in the economy, so many people holding themselves out as experts that it's so hard for me to feel confident that anyone can really be an expert or we wouldn't be in this mess.

CLINTON: Well...

VAN SUSTEREN: And so I guess it's -- so as a voter, I'm trying to think...

CLINTON: Well -- well, but...

VAN SUSTEREN: ... Like, what do you look at? How do you make those predictions?

CLINTON: Well, you can look at the record that was established when I was president and compare it to the next eight years or to the previous 12. And you can take some comfort, if, like me, you support Senator Obama, that he has gone out of his way to reach out to Gene Sperling and Bob Rubin and Laura Tyson, and you know, the whole range of economic advisers that I have -- that I had. And they produced a pretty good economy with broadly shared benefits.

And I believe that that's really important. And so I -- you know, I think that he -- in terms of this current financial crisis, it's hard to know, for anybody to say with certainty this is what you should do for the next six months because there are still events unfolding. But he certainly has shown a willingness to get together really smart people and listen to them and be open to new ideas and have what I consider to be the right values in this, you know, about how we're going to bring America's financial health back.

So I'm satisfied that what I said at the convention is still right. I think he is the person most likely to bring America back to more jobs and more broadly held prosperity more quickly.

VAN SUSTEREN: You raise the issue of values. And let me ask you a question that I ask very carefully because I don't want to be misinterpreted. I don't want anyone to read anything into my question and -- you know, because this is one of the hottest items that any of us can talk about and we have to face it.

But what is the difference between an association with someone like David Duke and an association with someone like Reverend Wright?

CLINTON: Well, I think that -- first, we don't have to go there because Senator Obama left the church.

VAN SUSTEREN: After two things happened.

CLINTON: That is correct.

VAN SUSTEREN: One was a lot of pressure from the media, and then the second thing was after Reverend Wright at the National Press Club took a personal strike at him. That's when -- well, that's when...

CLINTON: That's correct.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... He disavowed him. It wasn't until that point.

CLINTON: But to me, it's not necessary for those of us who are surrogates on either side to weigh into that now. To me, this election is fundamentally about how the American people are going to live and who is most likely to do things that will be helpful and empowering to them and their children.

If this were still a big issue, then, you know, we could all deal with that. But I think that -- I think that that was something that was exhaustively looked at in the primary, and I just don't -- you know, I don't have anything to say about it.

Senator Obama has already spoken in his own behalf there, and there's nothing -- people either accepted what he said, or they didn't. For me, the most important thing is -- who's going to make decisions that affect the American people in a positive way?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Coming up: President Clinton is, of course, the husband of a powerful woman who nearly became president. So what advice does he have for the "First Dude," Governor Palin's husband, Todd? You will hear.

And later, new details about Senator Obama's relationship with radical Weather Underground founder Bill Ayers. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: We continue now with former president Bill Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Governor Palin is sort of in an interesting position, or actually, her husband is, because -- a position that in some ways you find yourself in, you know, married to a high-profile politician. Any advice for Mr. Palin, who is now referred to as "First Dude?"

CLINTON: No. I mean, I think he's doing just fine on his own. I think, you know, when you break these gender roles, there are all these sort of almost subconscious expectations. And so I've read -- I mean, I'm interested in -- I do think he's an interesting guy. I think anybody who finishes those long races he does, did 500 miles on a broken arm...

VAN SUSTEREN: It's amazing.

CLINTON: ... Is worth our admiration. You know, I like people that don't quit and are tough in the face of adversity. So I admire that.

But I think the trick is, if you're a husband and the woman is in the role, the political role, traditionally identified by -- with men, the trick is to give support that is unambiguous and clear and to also be there with advice privately, but to do it in a way that doesn't, in a funny way, make her look weak.

Now, these role changes have happened a lot. You know, in '92, when I became president, Hillary was assaulted by some people for being too aggressive in giving advice. I was criticized for giving her a formal role in policy making. And I found myself in a culture in Washington that, at that moment at least, seemed more conservative, if you will, than I had had in Arkansas when I was governor, when the legislature, the press, the public at large was only too happy to have her services, since it was all transparent and open. It was interesting.

So I think that whenever you start changing the deck chairs and gender roles and family roles, you have to be prepared for psychological, as well as political sparks to fly. And my advice to him is, Keep that smile. Don't get defensive. And you know, somebody asks you a question about whether you should or shouldn't have done something, try to answer it the best you can and go on.

But, they obviously love each other, and it looks to me like they've got a pretty good relationship. And like I said, he must have something going if he can finish that 500-mile race with a broken arm. I can't get over it, but I like it a lot. (LAUGHTER)

VAN SUSTEREN: It's tough to be a family member, isn't it, of someone running. That's tough.

CLINTON: Yes. Sure, it is. And you know, he's been -- I've read some of these articles where they say, Well, he was too hard, and we don't want to have somebody that jumped on her. But you know, I took my own share of criticism there and I -- I think it's emotionally much, much harder to be the spouse of a candidate or an office holder than it is to do the job.

I find when you're doing a job, you tend to get lost in and committed to the work at hand. And if you are doing what you think is right, it's incredibly liberating. And you almost don't care what other people say, except you should never lose the ability to hear criticism because your critics are sometimes right.

But if you're just pulling for somebody and you think so highly of them and you think they're getting whacked unfairly and it's their job, then it's harder to take. So I'm going to be -- you know, I'm sort of sympathetic with him navigating through this campaign and what he had to do in Alaska because I was right there in this election, and I've been right there since 2000, since Hillary first ran.

It's been a -- for me, we went though brutal campaigns, you know, for a long, long time and learned to just treat it like water off a duck's back and have a good time. It's been very interesting, the different -- the challenges of being a spouse.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mr. President, thank you very much. And I love following the Clinton Global Initiative because it really is extraordinary.

CLINTON: I think it's going to be good this year. And even though the economy...

VAN SUSTEREN: It's good every year.

CLINTON: Even though the economy's down, I think our commitments will be up. I think that there is a sense of the people that come to this that the next president and the next Congress, whatever happens in this election, may be somewhat constrained for a year or two in what they're going to do by the economic challenges we're dealing with now.

And that means that for private citizens to get out there and do more in America and around the world is, if anything, going to be more important now than it was before. And I think that's the attitude people are bringing to this conference. It'll be interesting to see how it develops.

VAN SUSTEREN: And the great ideas. They don't cost a dime.

CLINTON: The great ideas.

VAN SUSTEREN: Great ideas don't cost a dime to come up with.

CLINTON: They don't cost a dime. They often save money. Great ideas often enable you to touch more people with fewer dollars, and that's what we're looking for now.

VAN SUSTEREN: Thank you, sir.

CLINTON: Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)


Content and Programming Copyright 2008 FOX News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2008 ASC LLC (www.ascllc.net), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon FOX News Network, LLC'S and ASC LLC's copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal


soure http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,426885,00.html

[niko084]

how do you figure you need to read who trained him as a community organizer and some of the things hes been involved in just because you make a statement doesn't mean it is true.

Obama is pretty well known to be a Left Wing Extremist, the most Left Wing in national politics currently. So says the democratic party themselves, so says almost everything he says and everything he acts on, so simply says the majority of his inner city non working welfare collecting food stamp eating useless crack smokers of America...

I'll say I think honestly he could do some good and it would be a world of change, but I really don't feel he is fit in this kinda situation.

Honestly I really wish Jeb Bush would run for president, the guy is an economics godsend. If anyone with a background in politics could make this transition into and out of our economic fall he can, and probably quite smoothly as long as congress let him do his job. :(

[Wile E]

I just wish Ross Perot was running this year. :D

[niko084]

I just wish Ross Perot was running this year. :D

Amen to that...

Guy probably would have been very good, but he didn't play the game right...
Gotta give him props for that though.

[trt740]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlRAGHqEqPU David Duke Question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cdolg2y_BU Willam Ayres and Barrack Obama Fox news number one source of news in America beats all other new station including CNN, MSNBC,ABC and CBS Per tha national; rating system it is hands down number one.. The National review is a very large Conservative publication and is not a scandal newspaper at all.


MSNBC links O.B to Ayres http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4glqu9OfM


Bill Clintons former Campain manager on Bill Ayers terrorist and B.O and Racist Rev. Wright http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJrNQBUVMvo



Hillary Clinton on B.O relationships with Lewis Farrakan and William Ayres and facts about the terrorist group the weathermenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBvsEqYAhA


indorsement from Hamas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PDiLkswHz8

[DaedalusHelios]

TRT740

He never said Obama was anything close to David Duke. So why did you link the transcript?

Wright is an extremist but he isn't an advisor to Barack Obama. Obama doesn't even go to that church anymore but the Pastor turned into a nutcase that Obama doesn't even see anymore. It was a Black Megachurch.

Republican media tries to spin it both ways and contradicts itself in the process. First they spread lies about Obama being a Muslim. While at the same time they try to say he uses a Christian/Black extremist as a spiritual advisor. You cannot have it both ways(especially when both ways are lies to begin with).

[niko084]

Republican media tries to spin it both ways and contradicts itself in the process. First they spread lies about Obama being a Muslim. While at the same time they try to say he uses a Christian/Black extremist as a spiritual advisor. You cannot have it both ways(especially when both ways are lies to begin with).

Almost all the large media companies are owned and run by strong democrats... So that's kinda an interesting statement to say the least.

Advertisements on the other hand are equally BS...

[trt740]

TRT740

He never said Obama was anything close to David Duke. So why did you link the transcript?

Wright is an extremist but he isn't an advisor to Barack Obama. Obama doesn't even go to that church anymore but the Pastor turned into a nutcase that Obama doesn't even see anymore. It was a Black Megachurch.

Republican media tries to spin it both ways and contradicts itself in the process. First they spread lies about Obama being a Muslim. While at the same time they try to say he uses a Christian/Black extremist as a spiritual advisor. You cannot have it both ways(especially when both ways are lies to begin with).

Wright baptised his kids and Obama in his book calls Wright his spiritual mentor and like a father to him. So the only news is liberal new media?

[DaedalusHelios]

Almost all the large media companies are owned and run by strong democrats... So that's kinda an interesting statement to say the least.

Advertisements on the other hand are equally BS...

Incorrect. Look at Rupert Murdoch. He owns the largest amount American Media outlets ever owned by a single person. The liberal media phrase was actually a joke when first stated and later used by Fox News Pundits owned by Mr.Murdoch. Fox News gets talking points directly from the White House.

[Wile E]

Wright baptised his kids and Obama in his book calls Wright his spiritual mentor and like a father to him. So the only news is liberal new media?

Not by a long shot. personally, I've found it's best to read the stories from both the majority of the media (liberal), and the conservative media (Fox News, for example), and meet somewhere in the middle.

[DaedalusHelios]

Wright baptised his kids and Obama in his book calls Wright his spiritual mentor and like a father to him. So the only news is liberal new media?

In Wrights life he didn't show signs of extremism until very recently. Ever wonder why your smear footage is only recent.

The best media is academic and not one way or the other.

See Bias: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bias ~second definition

You need sources that are not overwhelmingly bias. Many of your links are spliced youtube videos that don't even match the lips. You need real sources. Try LexisNexis.

[trt740]

In Wrights life he didn't show signs of extremism until very recently. Ever wonder why your smear footage is only recent.

What are you talking about Wright traveled with Lewis Farrakan to Libya to meet with kadafi, to support him, a know terroirst supporter and terrorist head of state. Wright has been a radical since the 60's. You are unreal how much more info do you need. Listen to this Obamas spiritual advisor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw Some of this is fine by me and I agree with some of it, but some of this is crazy and racist as hell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovO8hFt8-c8

A close fiend of B.O s and a total nut speaking at Obamas church of 20 years Father Pfleger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUMunBYVKSo

Remember this is Bill Clintons wife hes talking about who most people consider him the first black president for all hes done for black americans. These people in Obamas church thanked him for this.

[DaedalusHelios]

What are you talking about Wright traveled with Lewis Farrakan to Libya to meet with kafi, and support him, a know terroirst supporter and terrorist head of state. Wright has been a radical since the 60's. You are unreal how much more info do you need.

Fox News and cooked up smear videos on youtube don't count for research. Its not info its propaganda. Seriously, do you do real research? I am trying to help you here.

[Wile E]

Fox News and cooked up smear videos on youtube don't count for research. Its not info its propaganda. Seriously, do you do real research? I am trying to help you here.

Fox News counts just as much as any other media outlet. No media source is reliable to give the unbiased truth. The majority of the media is Liberal/Democratic, and will try to ignore this type of issue, whereas the conservative media will blow it out of proportion.

[trt740]

Fox News and cooked up smear videos on youtube don't count for research. Its not info its propaganda. Seriously, do you do real research? I am trying to help you here.

your kidding right I watch about 5 news channels and read 10 news periodicals. I voted for Bill Clinton and went to Kent state one of the most liberal colleges in the USA. I just call it as I see it.

[DaedalusHelios]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-OpIXfXKO8&feature=rec-fresh

^^^You call this fair and balanced?

Fox News clearly violates the basic rules of journalism. If people even respect it anymore.

Thats why they are insufficient for research.

Further Analysis: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-young/scott-mcclellan-white-hou_b_115099.html

^^Huffington post is a republican News Source.

[trt740]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-OpIXfXKO8&feature=rec-fresh

^^^You call this fair and balanced?

Fox News clearly violates the basic rules of journalism. If people even respect it anymore.

Thats why they are insufficient for research.

its video footage from fox news and I didn't call it fair and balanced. Your the guy who said B.O was connected to William Arys remember that. Listen to this again and tell me thats not a racist church A close fiend of B.O s and a total nut speaking at his church Father Pfleger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUMunBYVKSo

[Wile E]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-OpIXfXKO8&feature=rec-fresh

^^^You call this fair and balanced?

Fox News clearly violates the basic rules of journalism. If people even respect it anymore.

Thats why they are insufficient for research.
Oh stop it. It's no worse than any other news outlet. They just go the opposite direction than the majority of the media. If you think ANY news source is unbiased, you are seriously brainwashed. Every single news source in the country is driven by a behind the scenes political agenda.

By your standards, absolutely no news outlet is a sufficient source for research.

[SK-1]

Both Bill Clinton AND Hillary said,...and I QUOTE,..." Fox news was the MOST fair and balanced news outlet during the Democratic Primary."

I cant wait to read the spin now.

[trt740]

Heres Obamas connection to the to the bank collapse. The man is this video is one of Obamas campain finance manager, Ex CEO of Fannie Mae, and helped cause this collapse and world economic cysis by lending to people who could not pay it back. THE MANS on his staff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usvG-s_Ssb0 Obamas gonna fix this!!!!


look at this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovO8hFt8-c8 another criminal connection and more racist crap. This is unreal stuff

[SK-1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ2nVor0bSI:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
No....fox is not fair and balanced.;)

[viczulis]

Daedalus helios man wake up, borrow some money or something and buy a clue.:roll:

O.B is going to make everything now fucked up even worse.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

[viczulis]

but more balanced then rest.

[DaedalusHelios]

Fox News is the other direction of "InfoWars" with 24/7 video.

There is a reason I hate Jerry Falwell, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson is the same reason they could never be president(besides the fact that Falwell is dead). Their Far-Left or Far-Right views make no sense.

The Policies of Barack Obama make sense to me. Go to his website and read what his policies are and you will see.

These Guerrilla News Sources and Fox News are just extensions of our oppressors.

[trt740]

to be president http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMYty1PgHEg. How things change when hes vp canidate 6 months later

[niko084]

As for this federal bailout, I personally think we should fine the people that are really responsible and make them live in section 8 housing and use their "bonus" money to deal with the debt, then deal with the stupid idiots who took their loans when an IQ of over 20 and 10 minutes of thought could have figured out is a bad idea.

[SK-1]

to be president http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMYty1PgHEg

HOLY S&IT:eek:

[DaedalusHelios]

Daedalus helios man wake up, borrow some money or something and buy a clue.:roll:

O.B is going to make everything now fucked up even worse.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

Post reported.

[trt740]

HOLY S&IT:eek:

did you see what Bill Clinton said about him wow!!!!

[trt740]

Post reported.

what did he say wrong he did not say anything bad about you personally. This is not personal against you we are just talking.

[niko084]

to be president http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMYty1PgHEg. How things change when hes vp canidate 6 months later

That would be the democratic party this year... OMG NO NO NO not him anyone but him... OMG HIM VOTE HIM, he will do everything....

Look back at Clintons previous comments when they were both fighting to be primary runner, then boom she is 100% behind him... Flip flop, John Kerry all over again. :shadedshu

[SK-1]

Post reported.

Is this the "touchy feely" thing I always read about??

[trt740]

HOLY S&IT:eek:

here is a clearer version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjAs4vtc1w

[DaedalusHelios]

to be president http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMYty1PgHEg. How things change when hes vp canidate 6 months later

I refuse to go back and forth with smear videos because that would just start a flame war.

It really is sad when people can't debate on the internet without smear tactics.

Good night and good luck.

[trt740]

I refuse to go back and forth with smear videos because that would just start a flame war.

It really is sad when people just can't debate on the internet without smear tactics.

Good night and good luck.

no you want to make statements that have zero backing, yet debate factual video of several people not agreeing with your statements and only accept new media that you think is factual and disreguard all others.. Then you cannot even consider the possability you are wrong.


Oh forgot to tell ya good night no hard feeling. I mean that, no hidden meaning here, I actually think you are a good guy, but don't agree with you. Don't take any of this personal Obama will win anyways because of how messed up thing are in our economy and people are sick of a war, weather it's justified or not , but I think things will only get worse with him in office but only time will tell because he is gonna win.. The thanks is for hanging in there and sticking to what you think is right.

[niko084]

no you want to make statements that have zero backing, yet debate factual video of several people not agreeing with your statements and only accept new media that you think is factual and disreguard all others.. Then you cannot even consider the possability you are wrong. Oh forgot to tell ya good night no hard feeling.

I think its growing obvious he has strong beliefs and wants to think that everything in these clips is taken out of context... Unfortunately not going to persuade him that they are very simple straight cut statements.

[viczulis]

Dam duded lighten up, your taken this stuff to heart. Just look at it this way either way it goes were screwed. You like who you like I think they both suck.:laugh: Out of the two I say McCain oh well.

Answer me one thing are you real young and star struck :laugh:

[SK-1]

Time to visit the Insomniacs thread i guess.

[trt740]

Time to visit the Insomniacs thread i guess.

side note Bob where are my dog pictures, my friend



Quote:
Originally Posted by viczulis
Dam duded lighten up, your taken this stuff to heart. Just look at it this way either way it goes were screwed. You like who you like I think they both suck. Out of the two I say McCain oh well.
Answer me one thing are you real young and star struck

this I agree with Mccain sucks but less

[Paulieg]

Daedalus helios man wake up, borrow some money or something and buy a clue.:roll:

O.B is going to make everything now fucked up even worse.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

Please refrain from insulting other members.

[mlupple]

Barack Obama leads the feminization of America. Way to go, democrats!

[Paulieg]

What's sad, is the 19% of people who voted they don't care. Those people should not complain EVER about what our government does or doesn't do.

[trt740]

Please refrain from insulting other members.

night Pauly, Bob etc....

[trt740]

What's sad, is the 19% of people who voted they don't care. Those people should not complain EVER about what our government does or doesn't do.

I cannot believe the GW votes I thought that would be lower (I'm gonna get it for sure on this one) I actually like him.

[Paulieg]

This election is really hard for me. I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal. I may have been more on the fence toward McCain, but Palin scares the hell out of me. She is ultra conservative.

[Paulieg]

night Pauly, Bob etc....

nite Tom

[trt740]

This election is really hard for me. I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal. I may have been more on the fence toward McCain, but Palin scares the hell out of me. She is ultra conservative.

I don't think so shes just a devoted Christian thats not scary. I also like Joe Biden hes been a very good senator and American. I don't agree with him on many things but hes the best choice of these jokers and Mccains not a conservative at all hes just goofy. Although his wife is hot for a old broad and I give him credit for that. I would hit that cougar if ya know what I mean.

[Wile E]

This election is really hard for me. I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal. I may have been more on the fence toward McCain, but Palin scares the hell out of me. She is ultra conservative.

That's where I sit.

[Paulieg]

"Devoted Christian" can be a slippery slope when you mix it with politicians.

[DaedalusHelios]

no you want to make statements that have zero backing, yet debate factual video of several people not agreeing with your statements and only accept new media that you think is factual and disreguard all others.. Then you cannot even consider the possability you are wrong. Oh forgot to tell ya good night no hard feeling.

Its not about right and wrong. Its about using respectable sources. Think academic, I know it has been a while since college, but these sources still exist. AP and Reuters to name a few. They are known to be completely unbiased and free. ;)

I think we see why you got banned in the first place. With all this finger pointing and rhetoric only trying to discredit me to serve your needs for self satisfaction and close-mindedness.

I didn't come here to roll in the mud. I came here for an honest debate. I wish you and your buddies were capable of doing so.

The first one to lose in an uncivilized debate is the one that stops yelling first. I refuse to start yelling, to prevent from lowering the bar on this debate even further than you have forced it.

Ask any Academic institution, youtube.com is not a valid source, and neither is Fox News. Unless you ask Liberty University maybe.

[mlupple]

This election is really hard for me. I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal. I may have been more on the fence toward McCain, but Palin scares the hell out of me. She is ultra conservative.

Yea, but all of you libertarians are choosing the Social issues over the issues that are much more important.

You can't protect your social issues without a government-free market, and a military. You're a real femme kinda guy if you're going to insure gays have the right to marry and a woman has the right to kill her own child over a prosperous and government-independent country.

[trt740]

Its not about right and wrong. Its about using respectable sources. Think academic, I know it has been a while since college, but these sources still exist. AP and Reuters to name a few. They are known to be completely unbiased and free. ;)

I think we see why you got banned in the first place. With all this finger pointing and rhetoric only trying to discredit me to serve your needs for self satisfaction and close-mindedness.
I didn't come here to roll in the mud. I came here for an honest debate. I wish you and your buddies were capable of doing so.

The first one to lose in an uncivilized debate is the one that stops yelling first. I refuse to start yelling, to prevent from lowering the bar on this debate even further than you have forced it.

Ask any Academic institution, youtube.com is not a valid source, and neither is Fox News. Unless you ask Liberty University maybe.

The colleges almost excusively have a liberal slant big time.

I got banned for deleting my post not retoric.

Reason: please dont delete your own posts 09-12-2008 06:18 PM by W1zzard 25 / Expired



thats was not very nice at all to say that DaedalusHelios

[Wile E]

Its not about right and wrong. Its about using respectable sources. Think academic, I know it has been a while since college, but these sources still exist. AP and Reuters to name a few. They are known to be completely unbiased and free. ;)

I think we see why you got banned in the first place. With all this finger pointing and rhetoric only trying to discredit me to serve your needs for self satisfaction and close-mindedness.

I didn't come here to roll in the mud. I came here for an honest debate. I wish you and your buddies were capable of doing so.

The first one to lose in an uncivilized debate is the one that stops yelling first. I refuse to start yelling, to prevent from lowering the bar on this debate even further than you have forced it.

Ask any Academic institution, youtube.com is not a valid source, and neither is Fox News. Unless you ask Liberty University maybe.AP and Rueters aren't unbiased sources either. :confused:

Where you get that idea is completely beyond me. Like I said previously, if you believe ANY media outlet is unbiased, you are brainwashed.

And trt is right about colleges, most all of them are liberal slanted. The ones that aren't, generally openly claim to be conservative.

[Paulieg]

Its not about right and wrong. Its about using respectable sources. Think academic, I know it has been a while since college, but these sources still exist. AP and Reuters to name a few. They are known to be completely unbiased and free. ;)

I think we see why you got banned in the first place. With all this finger pointing and rhetoric only trying to discredit me to serve your needs for self satisfaction and close-mindedness.

I didn't come here to roll in the mud. I came here for an honest debate. I wish you and your buddies were capable of doing so.

The first one to lose in an uncivilized debate is the one that stops yelling first. I refuse to start yelling, to prevent from lowering the bar on this debate even further than you have forced it.

Ask any Academic institution, youtube.com is not a valid source, and neither is Fox News. Unless you ask Liberty University maybe.

D, please bring it down a notch, ok? Let's all keep this civil.

[mlupple]

Got this in an e-mail.

Sarah Palin’s Guide to Finding Out if You are Gay:

1. If you are over forty, and you have a washboard stomach, you are gay because God never meant for men to look good after 40. It means you haven't sucked back enough beer with the boys and have spent the rest of your free time doing sit-ups, aerobics, and doing the Oprah diet.

2. If you have a cat, you are a Flaming homo. A cat is like a dog, but gay. It grooms itself constantly but never scratches itself, has a delicate touch except when it uses its nails, and whines to be fed. And just think about how you call a dog...'Killer, come here! I said get your ass over here, Killer!' Now think about how you call a cat...'Bun-bun, come to daddy, snookums!' (You're fit to be framed, you're so gay).

3. If you suck on lollipops, Ring-Pops, baby pacifiers, or any such nonsense, rest assured, you are a Gaylord. A straight man only sucks on BBQ ribs, crab claws, moose shanks, raw oysters, crawfish guts, pickled pigs feet, or tits. Anything else and you are in training and, no question, undeniably gay.

4. If you refuse to take a dump in a public bathroom or piss in a parking lot, you crave a deep homosexual relationship. In the Bible is says: “A man's world is his bathroom; he defecates and urinates wherever he pleases just as God had ordained it...”

5. If you drink anything other than regular coffee, you're gay. A straight man will never be heard ordering a 'Decaf Soy Latte'. If you've put a Decaf Soy Latte to your lips, you've had a man there, obviously, too. You might as well have a penis in your mouth. If you wear a Bluetooth headset at Starbucks, you have a penis in your ass too.

6. If you know more than six names of non standard colors or four different types of dessert other than ice cream and pie, you might as well be handing out free ass passes. A real man doesn't have memory space in his brain to remember all of that crap. He is too busy being a real man by trying to secede from the United States.

7. If you can pick out chartreuse (unless its on a fishing lure) or you know what a 'fressier' is you're gay. And if you can name ANY TYPE of textile other than cotton or denim, you are faggadocious.

8. If you drive with both hands on the wheel, forget it, you're dying to tune a meat whistle. A man only puts both hands on the wheel to honk at a slow-ass driver or to cut the jerk off? The rest of the time he needs that hand to change the radio station, eat a mooseburger, or hold his beer.

9. If you do not send this off to all the femmy males on your e-mail list because you are afraid of hurting their feelings then, face it, you are definitely on the verge on being a fudgepacker.

[btarunr]

Are there any unbiased sources in the media left today. Unfortunately unbiased media has become a thing of utopia (impossible).

[Paulieg]

AP and Rueters aren't unbiased sources either. :confused:

Where you get that idea is completely beyond me. Like I said previously, if you believe ANY media outlet is unbiased, you are brainwashed.

I have to agree here. AP and Rueter's are at least slightly to the left, but not as far as fox news is to the right.

[Paulieg]

Got this in an e-mail.

Sarah Palin’s Guide to Finding Out if You are Gay:

1. If you are over forty, and you have a washboard stomach, you are gay because God never meant for men to look good after 40. It means you haven't sucked back enough beer with the boys and have spent the rest of your free time doing sit-ups, aerobics, and doing the Oprah diet.

2. If you have a cat, you are a Flaming homo. A cat is like a dog, but gay. It grooms itself constantly but never scratches itself, has a delicate touch except when it uses its nails, and whines to be fed. And just think about how you call a dog...'Killer, come here! I said get your ass over here, Killer!' Now think about how you call a cat...'Bun-bun, come to daddy, snookums!' (You're fit to be framed, you're so gay).

3. If you suck on lollipops, Ring-Pops, baby pacifiers, or any such nonsense, rest assured, you are a Gaylord. A straight man only sucks on BBQ ribs, crab claws, moose shanks, raw oysters, crawfish guts, pickled pigs feet, or tits. Anything else and you are in training and, no question, undeniably gay.

4. If you refuse to take a dump in a public bathroom or piss in a parking lot, you crave a deep homosexual relationship. In the Bible is says: “A man's world is his bathroom; he defecates and urinates wherever he pleases just as God had ordained it...”

5. If you drink anything other than regular coffee, you're gay. A straight man will never be heard ordering a 'Decaf Soy Latte'. If you've put a Decaf Soy Latte to your lips, you've had a man there, obviously, too. You might as well have a penis in your mouth. If you wear a Bluetooth headset at Starbucks, you have a penis in your ass too.

6. If you know more than six names of non standard colors or four different types of dessert other than ice cream and pie, you might as well be handing out free ass passes. A real man doesn't have memory space in his brain to remember all of that crap. He is too busy being a real man by trying to secede from the United States.

7. If you can pick out chartreuse (unless its on a fishing lure) or you know what a 'fressier' is you're gay. And if you can name ANY TYPE of textile other than cotton or denim, you are faggadocious.

8. If you drive with both hands on the wheel, forget it, you're dying to tune a meat whistle. A man only puts both hands on the wheel to honk at a slow-ass driver or to cut the jerk off? The rest of the time he needs that hand to change the radio station, eat a mooseburger, or hold his beer.

9. If you do not send this off to all the femmy males on your e-mail list because you are afraid of hurting their feelings then, face it, you are definitely on the verge on being a fudgepacker.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

[trt740]

I have to agree here. AP and Rueter's are at least slightly to the left, but not as far as fox news is to the right.

or as CNN ABC and NBC are to the left.

[Wile E]

Are there any unbiased sources in the media left today. Unfortunately unbiased media has become a thing of utopia (impossible).

Agreed 100% :toast:

[DaedalusHelios]

D, please bring it down a notch, ok? Let's all keep this civil.

It passed that, pages ago.

[trt740]

It passed that, pages ago.

and you just flame baited me wow!!! and your complaining wow!!!! I will let that ban comment go

[oli_ramsay]

Are there any unbiased sources in the media left today. Unfortunately unbiased media has become a thing of utopia (impossible).

Only the BBC

[Wile E]

Only the BBC

Not even them my friend.

[trt740]

Only the BBC

your kidding right the BBC is crazy liberal bias and I love the BBC but their Iraq coverage was hardly fair and balanced.

[Paulieg]

OK guys. So, if you are decided on a condidate, WHY are you voting for them?

[DaedalusHelios]

Only the BBC

I would agree but unfortunately republicans are told its "Liberal" because it questions GW Bush's intentions. So good luck. ;)

[trt740]

OK guys. So, if you are decided on a condidate, WHY are you voting for them?

lesser of two evils, heck I might not vote for either and write in Mickey mouse he got like 50,000 write in votes lastime.

[trt740]

I would agree but unfortunately republicans are told its "Liberal" because it questions GW Bush's intentions. So good luck. ;)

we woulds all agree, you would agree on that ,your a liberal and thats a fact.

in case you missed this part before you flame baited me

Oh forgot to tell ya good night no hard feeling. I mean that, no hidden meaning here, I actually think you are a good guy, but don't agree with you. Don't take any of this personal Obama will win anyways because of how messed up thing are in our economy and people are sick of a war, weather it's justified or not , but I think things will only get worse with him in office but only time will tell because he is gonna win.. The thanks is for hanging in there and sticking to what you think is right.

[Wile E]

lesser of two evils, heck I might not vote for either and write in Mickey mouse he got like 50,000 write in votes lastime.

I think I'll write in Ross Perot. lol.

[btarunr]

Only the BBC

I've followed BBC World throughout their 9/11 aftermath coverage (Afghanistan/Iraq...), they're not unbiased at all.

[trt740]

I think I'll write in Ross Perot. lol.

god Ross is near 100 years old, hes so old he could be Mccains dad. Still a good guy.

http://img.techpowerup.org/081004/Perot_cropped_and_blown-up.jpg

[Paulieg]

I would say that the BBC is liberal, just less of a stakeholder in American politics.

[btarunr]

I would say that the BBC is liberal, just less of a stakeholder in American politics.

They'd declared one of the buildings of WTC "collapsed", when it was very much standing, right behind their correspondent in NY, 30 minutes before it actually collapsed. (source: that Conspiracy video, which claims to show actual BBC footage).

[trt740]

[
They'd declared one of the buildings of WTC "collapsed", when it was very much standing, right behind their correspondent in NY, 30 minutes before it actually collapsed. (source: that Conspiracy video, which claims to show actual BBC footage).

yes but lets not talk that topic again my god the last time was a mess.

[SK-1]

They'd declared one of the buildings of WTC "collapsed", when it was very much standing, right behind their correspondent in NY, 30 minutes before it actually collapsed. (source: that Conspiracy video, which claims to show actual BBC footage).

sniff sniff....smell it? ....check your shoes everyone.

[DaedalusHelios]

OK guys. So, if you are decided on a condidate, WHY are you voting for them?

Obama since I don't want any more families to lose there husbands/fathers. Luckily Biden will be helping to plan the exit strategy.

McCain used to be a great guy, but then everything changed three years ago when he considered running for president and his views magically changed.

[trt740]

Obama since I don't want any more families to lose there husbands/fathers. Luckily Biden will be helping to plan the exit strategy.

McCain used to be a great guy, but then everything changed three years ago when he considered running for president and his views magically changed.

your right hes a conserative democrat, pretending hes a Republican, thats why hes the maverick his own party really doesn't like him. Hes for a fact an american hero but his politics are very bad just not as bad as B.O. 's and his stink even worse. Get it B.O and stink I made a funny. :roll:


here it comes I can feel it. :twitch:

[btarunr]

[


yes but lets not talk that topic again my god the last time was a mess.

It won't go there, I promise. just commenting on BBC. No media, absolutely no media, provides an unbiased perspective, unless it comes down to reporting countryside stories of "peasant grows world's largest cabbage", "pig delivers record 15 piglets"....etc.

[DaedalusHelios]

your right hes a conserative democrat, pretending hes a Republican, thats why hes the maverick his own party really doesn't like him. Hes for a fact an american hero but his politics are very bad just not as bad as B.O. 's and his stink even worse. Get it B.O and stink I made a funny.

Bill Clinton was very moderate for a democrat since he was referred to as a populist. A bland centrist like Hilary is. Both of them are very close to the early policies proposed by McCain, just years before running for the highest office.

[trt740]

Bill Clinton was very moderate for a democrat since he was referred to as a populist. A bland centrist like Hilary is. Both of them are very close to the early policies proposed by McCain, just years before running for the highest office.

un no Clinton was a liberal big time, Al Gore was as close to a Republican as a Democrat can be (southern Democrat, was a NRA member, help found the PMRC to rate moves , music, and video games , was a soilder in vetnaim etc... thats why GW(who is a Liberal Republican) and all Gore were so close in their election they had the same voting base. Thats why when Clinton ran he picked Gore to pull votes from the right and Bush picked Cheney to pull votes from the ultra right.

thats why Mccain (liberal Republican) pick (conservative) Palin and (Ultra liberal) Democrate Obama picked (Moderate Democrat) Biden. In the Gore / Bush election Gore messed up bad because he picked Leberman a (Ultra conservative Democrat) and Gore got crazy changing his position on issues trying to pull from the far left base because Leberman couldn't. If he had picked a liberal he would have won. Other than the enviroment, and prior to that election many accused Gore of being a Republican. I know this because I read his book.

[DaedalusHelios]

un no Clinton was a liberal big time, Al Gore was as close to a Republican as a Democrat can be (southern democrate, was a NRA member, help found the PMRC to rate moves , music, and video games , was a soilder in vetnaim etc... thats why GW(who is a Liberal Republican) and all Gore were so close in their election they had the same voting base. Thats why when Clinton ran he picked Gore to pull votes from the right and Bush picked Cheney to pull votes from the ultra right.

thats why Mccain (liberal Republican) pick (conservative) Palin and (Ultra liberal) Democrate Obama picked (Moderate Democrat) Biden.

I guess we will agree to disagree on that then. Good night as its 2:30AM here.

[anticlutch]

Hm, I have no idea whether someone has mentioned this already but just because we elect a certain president it doesn't mean that all of his projected policies will come into practice. Checks and balances... the Senate and Supreme Court will help to curb, or even entirely eliminate any radical changes the new president has in mind. Everyone has been going on and on about taxes and Iraq and whatnot... just because Obama wants (this is the key word here) to change the laws so that the people at the top of the pyramid will pay more taxes doesn't necessarily mean it'll happen.

And as a final comment, although I would like for there to be universal healthcare, I don't think it'll work out as nicely as we would all hope for it to. Our country is already financially overburdened because of Social Security, Medical, the "war on terrorism", and as of late, the $700B bailout package. As Times magazine had stated, our main and biggest export is debt... with all that red ink I have my strong doubts that healthcare for everyone is a good idea, let alone feasible. Much stricter regulation on pharmaceutical and health insurance companies' practices while boosting government-sponsored healthcare research (in order to pick up the possible slack from, or even augment, the pharmaceutical companies' research) would be a better, more practical step to take IMO.

[DaMulta]

.

Obama was a constitutional law professor from 1992-2004(give or take)State legislator, 1997–2004,U.S. Senator, from 2005----now



In the early 2000's to 2007 or so we went from 37 trillion dollars invested and saved to 74 trillion dollars. That's more money than anyone combined spends in one year, countries, candy bars, everything.

All that extra money had to go somewhere. Housing was booming, and it was a good place to put all of that money. In fact there wasn't enough room there to put it.

They were buying the loans "mortgages"(investing) from banks then turning around and selling them on equity of the loan. I don't know who ened up with it last.

Anyways they couldn't get enough of them to sell, the class A group mainly. There are different classes that they sell A B C D the A being the best they(you and me) will pay back that loan. Some how they started mixing them together because they more or less ran out of them. So you had people investing trillions of dollars into class C thinking that they were class A loans. People started to default(remember last year on the rate increase after so many years were everyone lost their home).

Then everything started to go to hell.


That is how I understand the housing market mess. With the 700 Billion dollar buy out.


Then last week.

Market Share bonds(I think correct me if I'm wrong on my naming) borrow money for banks every day. In the BILLIONS. Now there are two sides that make this work. The banks and then the lenders(don't remember the name for that if you could help cool).

So they borrow say 10 million dollars, then they pay it back that day(at the end of the day) with interest. The banks are making the interest from the loans from you and spending a little to borrow the money for you. That week the Market Share bonds dropped one point. It has not done that in say 40 years.

People flipped out and moved their money to the other side to do the lending. Then what happened was that the banks almost could not borrow the money that it needs to do daily business, because to many players went to the other team(just like cod4 when it's 10 players against 2). Bush put a hold on this to stop it from going any further, but the experts said if they would of let it go just one more day the whole market would of locked up.

Now part of this 700billion dollars is going back into the system to fix this issue. That's why they were talking about a domino affect with all the banks crashing if one of them failed.





IMO what we should of done in the war is just go in and bomb the living shit out of them. Leave, and let them rebuild. If we don't like what they rebuilt, bomb the shit of them again. Everyone in the world wants to get ahead, and if kept doing that to them they would eventually stop all the craziness.
edit I have changed my view on this! not the way to handle it

They have been fighting for thousands of years, why do we think we can stop it by going in and controlling their lives? We as a nation are not the first ones to go in and try to change their governments and people.

When the oil runs up in those countries, they will have noting to offer to us.

[Mussels]

I'm shocked. why has no one voted for me?

[btarunr]

I'm shocked. why has no one voted for me?

If Don't Care is your other name, good news, you're second :)

http://img.techpowerup.org/081004/bta197.jpg

[Mussels]

If Don't Care is your other name, good news, you're second :)

http://img.techpowerup.org/081004/bta197.jpg

ah excellent. i didnt realise my real name was used instead of my alias mussels.

All hail don't care!

[eidairaman1]

Yea, but all of you libertarians are choosing the Social issues over the issues that are much more important.

You can't protect your social issues without a government-free market, and a military. You're a real femme kinda guy if you're going to insure gays have the right to marry and a woman has the right to kill her own child over a prosperous and government-independent country.


about the abortion policy, i say it should only be done in case of rape, and if there is a possible chance the woman may die from complications.

[eidairaman1]

The first one to lose in an uncivilized debate is the one that stops yelling first. I refuse to start yelling, to prevent from lowering the bar on this debate even further than you have forced it.

i don't see how this topic/debate can get any lower, as it is as low as it can get.

i say we lock this topic down for the better of the TPU community.

Ye, or Neh

you decide.

[intel igent]

why were mine and tatty's post's deleted?

the truth hurt's doesn't it?

[btarunr]

Because they were complete garbage (barring Tatty's), which had little or no relevence, not only that, but destructive feedback. There will be no further discussion on that. This thread was started by W1z, as a prelude to the real polls that will come up, and on what difference polls on the frontpage make. You're free to discuss in and around the topic, but try trivialising it, and you've had it.

[intel igent]

i don't see how this topic/debate can get any lower, as it is as low as it can get.

i say we lock this topic down for the better of the TPU community.

Ye, or Neh

you decide.

i say keep the thread open, it's nice to see other's argue for once and call each other name's without being infracted.

Because they were complete garbage (barring Tatty's), which had little or no relevence, not only that, but destructive feedback. There will be no further discussion on that. This thread was started by W1z, as a prelude to the real polls that come up, and on what difference polls on the frontpage make. You're free to discuss in and around the topic, but try trivialising it, and you've had it.

tatty is OK to post off topic but i can't? power trip/bias much?

:shadedshu

[btarunr]

Your post triggered his comment/response. Both his and my posts were deleted anyway. And how the hell would you know if others in this thread haven't been infracted? They have.

[Tatty_One]

i say keep the thread open, it's nice to see other's argue for once and call each other name's without being infracted.



tatty is OK to post off topic but i can't? power trip/bias much?

:shadedshu

Where did he say that? He deleted mine also, I have actually only made 3 posts here and they were all off topic that did actually deserve to be deleted, I havent read what you have posted in this thread so I cannot comment on what you have contributed, in our little friendly exchange we were just playing around and thats why I guess they were deleted, I dont think he was necessarily talking exclusively about your posts with me?

[intel igent]

I havent read what you have posted in this thread so I cannot comment on what you have contributed.

one of your post's that was deleted was a direct quote of my post but yet you never read any of my post's? :laugh:

you guy's are too much! :roll:

[TUngsten]

I think having a heated debate is a good thing, so long as everyone avoids personal attacks.

I think it's hard to quantify, but in my mind, the democratic party represents a more complete set of core ideals that will benefit us long-term, and the republicans seem extremely short-sighted.

I've always liked McCain for his reform initiatives and refusal to go party line on so many things, but I'd prefer to see someone in the WH who is socially conscious and capable of looking long-term.

I think the Republicans cater to the anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-gun control rhetoric because they see that as the only way they can hold onto that portion of middle- and southern-America that is typically poor, religious and minimally uneducated, and they have little else to criticize the democrats with beyond saying over and over that the Dems want to raise taxes...

I'm certainly not saying that mid/south US is poor and uneducated - only that there is a segment of that population that the Republicans have carefully targeted and try to keep in their camp, although many social democratic initiatives would likely have a direct effect on making their lives better.

The last 8 years of GW and the Iraq war has nearly bankrupted our entire country, and it was all built on lies that McCain still stands by. We've borrowed TRILLIONS of dollars from CHINA to pay for the war. That's why our taxes haven't gone up. Personally, I'd rather pay more taxes than owe the Chinese $10,000,000,000.00 and have our economy on the brink of disaster.

After 911, many nations of the world offered the USA assistance and support (even IRAN) but GW said no, and instead ignored the UN and went ahead with a pre-existing plan to invade Iraq. He squandered an opportunity to unite ther entire world VS terrorism, and instead concocted this bullshit Iraq war to satisfy the republicans own demented ambitions.

[Tatty_One]

one of your post's that was deleted was a direct quote of my post but yet you never read any of my post's? :laugh:

you guy's are too much! :roll:

I am talking about the other 19 pages, as I mentioned our "little" bit of humour was just 2 or 3 posts on page 15, the first of which was me saying that sometimes, just sometimes it might actually good to be a brit, you made a comment about being canadian, I said that was too close, now all of a sudden you seem to think that "our" 3 deleted posts constitutes a conspiracy against you, as I said..... I have not read the OTHER 19 pages of stuff and therefore any contribution you have made in the rest of this thread.....is that clearer for you?

So, now where are we? You and me have a friendly 3 post "off topic" exchange on Page 15, nothing whatsover to do with all the several other posts on topic you have contributed, because OUR (thats yours AND mine) 3 friendly post that were off topic have been deleted somehow I am to blame and there is a conspiricy against you?.....I am afraid paranoia springs to mind!

[btarunr]

1. Tatty, I deleted your comment(s) beacuse it was quoting Intel's post(s) containing his own "figment of imagination", not that you were to blamed for anything.

2. Intel, I deleted your comments because they were not only vague, but also inflammatory, and did no good to the discussion at large. Yes you're perfectly allowed to 'have fun' by going a little around the fences of the topic, but take it far, and we'll have to delete it. Notice I haven't infracted you. Whatever your imagination feeds you, I'm here to keep this thread smooth, that accomodates all sorts of matured comments, a little cooling off is more than welcome. I have zero vendetta against anyone, just as I have zero affinity / bias towards anyone. I have a duty to serve, let me do it, in the best interests of everyone at large.

3. You shall not respond to this post or discuss anything with regard to this. Infractions will follow.

[DaMulta]

I think having a heated debate is a good thing, so long as everyone avoids personal attacks.

I think it's hard to quantify, but in my mind, the democratic party represents a more complete set of core ideals that will benefit us long-term, and the republicans seem extremely short-sighted.

I've always liked McCain for his reform initiatives and refusal to go party line on so many things, but I'd prefer to see someone in the WH who is socially conscious and capable of looking long-term.

I think the Republicans cater to the anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-gun control rhetoric because they see that as the only way they can hold onto that portion of middle- and southern-America that is typically poor, religious and minimally uneducated, and they have little else to criticize the democrats with beyond saying over and over that the Dems want to raise taxes...

I'm certainly not saying that mid/south US is poor and uneducated - only that there is a segment of that population that the Republicans have carefully targeted and try to keep in their camp, although many social democratic initiatives would likely have a direct effect on making their lives better.

The last 8 years of GW and the Iraq war has nearly bankrupted our entire country, and it was all built on lies that McCain still stands by. We've borrowed TRILLIONS of dollars from CHINA to pay for the war. That's why our taxes haven't gone up. Personally, I'd rather pay more taxes than owe the Chinese $10,000,000,000.00 and have our economy on the brink of disaster.

After 911, many nations of the world offered the USA assistance and support (even IRAN) but GW said no, and instead ignored the UN and went ahead with a pre-existing plan to invade Iraq. He squandered an opportunity to unite ther entire world VS terrorism, and instead concocted this bullshit Iraq war to satisfy the republicans own demented ambitions.

It's sooo funny that China makes money then loans it out to us. They could come and demand it back one day, that could start another war. One that a lot of us would not live through. Most of our states keep going in the red every year. It's crazy that we don't make all our states have a balanced budget every year. My state happens to be a balanced budget state, if the money isn't there, we don't spend it.

My dad that's a money man(plays big in the all the markets), tells me that we(usa federal goverment) want to owe the money. Some how because of it they can control interest rates on the fly and other things with ease because of it. If they want to lower the rates they can pay it off, if they want to raise them they can add more to it. It's a f,ed up way they control the markets.

Yesterday(kind of the something about owing big money) when I was talking to him about GM Borrowing the 25 billion and about them being in the red. He told me when you run a company it's good to show that you took a loss at the end of the year because of taxes breaks. Your still making money, but putting more and more of it back in the business which shows that u lost money on the books. When you do that you get more tax breaks and other intensives that actually saves you money and makes you more money in the end of the day. It's just on paper it tells you another thing than it actually is.

[InfDamarvel]

A Man who votes 91% of the time with Bush or a man who thinks of American citizens as well as the the world around us. Personally its about time for out country to win back out allies. The more allies we have the more fear we strike into the eyes of the terrorist.

Also, Id also like to point out something about Iraq. When we went into this war we sought out the terrorist organization Al qaeda in Afghanistan. Yet as time moved on we someone made ourselves known in Iraq to look for weapons of mass destruction. Then when no weapons of mass destruction were found we came up with a new reason which was to reform the Iraq government.

I don't know how people are still being fulled by this Iraq concept in which Bush put into office. Yet some people believe that we succeeded in Afghanistan? We failed to stop Al qaeda or find Osama Bin Laden. And last I checked this was all started over finding Osama Bin laden.

[DaMulta]

Weapons of mass destruction, was what they said. They could of had them, and they could still be there buried in the desert. Now Saddam Hussein was a crazy ruler if you ever stop and read about what he and his family did while they were in control it will make you sick to your stomach. From rapping women and filming to sending it back to their family for them to see, to throwing babies against the wall. The fact that on his kids birthdays they got to go to a prison and kill someone for their birthday present. He even committed genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign

The list can go on and on, from the first day that he came into power, and hung everyone in the public streets that was power that was not with him.

They say that his kids were even worse, and when they would come into power it would of been even crazier.

But, their world over there is different that the Eu or us the west. They hate one another, and have been killing each other for centuries. It's bad to say it, at least for me it is, but maybe those people needed to be ruled with fear to keep them under control. During his rule of power did they have people driving around blowing themselves up in car bombs, going to neighbor hoods, and then beheading people because of their religion. In a crazy way, he might of kept them all under control from doing crazy things to one another by treating them the way that he did. Of course people suffered because of that, but did it keep most people under control and in some form of peace? I don't really know....I think that it's a hard thing to talk about.

[NastyHabits]

Judging from the rapid growth of this thread, it looks like people care more about Obama vs. McCain then the typical ATI vs Nvidia, or Intel vs AMD fanboy topics.

This is a good thing, and should give us all - left, right, and middle - hope for the future of our country.

It would be an even better thing if we all spent as much time writing to our Senators and Congressmen.....

[mlupple]

If you're 20 and not a liberal, you don't have a heart. If you're 40 and not a conservative, you don't have a brain.

I'm 23 and I already have a hot-ass asian GF for 5 years, so I don't need the heart.

[mlupple]

The last 8 years of GW and the Iraq war has nearly bankrupted our entire country, and it was all built on lies that McCain still stands by. We've borrowed TRILLIONS of dollars from CHINA to pay for the war. That's why our taxes haven't gone up. Personally, I'd rather pay more taxes than owe the Chinese $10,000,000,000.00 and have our economy on the brink of disaster.Dood. The amount of money we spend buying oil from the Arabs and Venezuela could fund 5 Iraq wars simultaneously. Sure 120B per year being spent in iRaq could be better spent elsewhere, but that's not what's breaking our bank... Foreign oil is. 700B per year leaving the country.

If we were 100% national energy, we'd be able to fund every social program that you femmy liberals want.

Why do you think the Democrats just caved to the Republicans and lifted the ban for off-shore drilling? Because they were wrong about it all along.

The reason George W. fuxed up so bad, is because he didn't act like a conservative. He acted like a liberal when it comes to spending taxpayer money. He could have stopped this housing mess, be he went right along with Clinton's minority housing act, and chose not to regulate these federally backed companies. WTG Liberals.


America Bought this:
http://nmgardener.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/silver-audi.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/08/dubai090806_600x600.jpg

http://www.engineering.ualberta.ca/images/Dubai.jpg

If this was USA oil, our gov would collect big-time and could spend this 700B/year on all the lame shiv you libs want. Finally the retarded democrats in the legislature came to realize this.

[Bigjohn]

or as CNN ABC and NBC are to the left.

This is the year that the vampire of Yellow journalism crawled from the grave, pulled the stake from it's heart, and killed Media Ethics with it.:banghead:

[btarunr]

In 2008, the US is calculative with its own oil reserves, buying it from elsewhere. But...imagine when the Arab world runs out of oil (or at least starts falling short of), the US would have better energy security. Due to the sheer size of populations that exist in this part of the world, the reserves here won't feed the populations for long. But if America buys oil for its people from elsewhere now, it can continue to feed its people using its own reserves for much longer. Brunei gave its people epic standards of living when it was in the peak of selling oil (at a time when oil was the only major source of national income), but now it's established that Brunei won't be able to sell oil post (ballpark) 2015~2020. The economy is already on a decline there after they suddenly woke up to the reality that they were over-consuming.

[AphexDreamer]

I personally feel that no matter who wins the election it will make no absolute difference to our economy or our way of life. (Yet if I cold vote this year I would be voting for Obama, Born in December damit)

The fact of the matter is that the current path we are taking is leading us straight to another great depression. Its hard to fathom it isn't it, yet we are repeating the same thing we did before.

First stagnation, then inflation, next thing you know its another depression.

[niko084]

Average american drivers car gets what probably maybe 20mpg....

What the average in Europe guys? 35-40? more? Let alone way more people use public transportation, walk, or cycle..

American's are stupid LOL *self included*

[Tatty_One]

This oil thing kills me, three quarters of the world buys it's oil from elsewhere and has done so for most of it's recent history, thats not the reason why countries like our's are suffering a huge economic downturn....yes the rising (and now falling) price of oil contributes but the bottom line is spending too much when you have too much, not placing enough in reserves so when your economic policies cease to have the same positive impact for a whole host of reasons there is not enough in reserve to ride the storm, then we go into huge debt trying to sort it out which in itself slows any potential recovery.

[Polaris573]

Several members need to re-read the Forum Guidelines (http://forums.techpowerup.com/announcement.php?f=14) which you agreed to abide by when you joined. Specifically this section:



Posting in a thread

Be polite, if you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all. This includes trolling, continuous use of bad language (ie. cussing), flaming and insulting others.
Short and pointless posts like "yeah", "me too" or "haha" can be made on the rest of the internet, not here. Post count doesn't increase your e-penis.
Stay on topic, changing the topic won't help the discussion.



Thank you.

[AphexDreamer]

The oil crisis is complete and utter bull shit. We have 100+ sealed oil wells and we haven't even opened one! I know this cause a woman at Shell brought this up in a conversation we were having.

Thing is greedy people are making loads off of this bull shit crisis while are economy suffers and we aren't doing anything about it.

If you look in other countries people protest, riot, speak up, strike and here in the Free U.S.A. no one says shit about anything. As long as each person is happy individually they could give a fuck about anything. Its called Freedom of speech but people are still telling you want you can't or can say.

[TUngsten]

Dood. The amount of money we spend buying oil from the Arabs and Venezuela could fund 5 Iraq wars simultaneously. Sure 120B per year being spent in iRaq could be better spent elsewhere, but that's not what's breaking our bank... Foreign oil is. 700B per year leaving the country.

If we were 100% national energy, we'd be able to fund every social program that you femmy liberals want.

Why do you think the Democrats just caved to the Republicans and lifted the ban for off-shore drilling? Because they were wrong about it all along.

The reason George W. fuxed up so bad, is because he didn't act like a conservative. He acted like a liberal when it comes to spending taxpayer money. He could have stopped this housing mess, be he went right along with Clinton's minority housing act, and chose not to regulate these federally backed companies. WTG Liberals.


Oh man, only an extreme republican stooge would jump on the "Clinton's minority housing act" bandwagon act that's all over the right-wing talk radio right now. Everyone else (dems and republicans) understand without dispute that the cause of the housing crisis was the market deregulation and lack of any oversight preventing too many folks from buying more house than they could possibly pay back, and the resulting unregulated buying and selling of the bad assets.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/01/conservatives-seek-to-shi_n_131020.html
-an article you could read where an actual Fed Reserve Bank president and noted economist both discount Ann Coulter's bigoted claim that the housing crisis was caused by giving bad loans to minorities.

I would love to hear some original thoughts instead of cut+paste jobs from your favorite right-wing propaganda website...it was funny listening to Palin regurgitating the party line like a Barbie-Robot the other night during the debates. You're no different.

And honestly, if you're under the age of 25 you just aren't old enough to know what it was like during the Clinton years, and how completely and absolutely wrecked everything is now.

You can't blame Clinton's minority housing act, or NAFTA, or Monica Lewinski for how bad things are now. You can only blame yourself and anyone else as narrowminded who voted GW Bush into office not once, but 2 times.

[Polaris573]

Do not insult other members or start flame wars. I am serious.

[TUngsten]

My apologies, I just don't respond well to bigoted right-wing propaganda being regurgitated as fact or "news."

[Bigjohn]

Oh man, only an extreme republican stooge would jump on the "Clinton's minority housing act" bandwagon act that's all over the right-wing talk radio right now. Everyone else (dems and republicans) understand without dispute that the cause of the housing crisis was the market deregulation and lack of any oversight preventing too many folks from buying more house than they could possibly pay back, and the resulting unregulated buying and selling of the bad assets.

I would love to hear some original thoughts instead of cut+paste jobs from your favorite right-wing propaganda website...it was funny listening to Palin regurgitating the party line like a Barbie-Robot the other night during the debates. You're no different.

And honestly, if you're under the age of 25 you just aren't old enough to know what it was like during the Clinton years, and how completely and absolutely wrecked everything is now.

You can't blame Clinton's minority housing act, or NAFTA, or Monica Lewinski for how bad things are now. You can only blame yourself and anyone else as narrowminded who voted GW Bush into office not once, but 2 times.

Actually, you can.
The congress (most specifically democrats because they've controlled congress for 30 of the last 40 years) never looks at the consequences of the laws they pass, then they pass more laws to fix the old ones, which is like putting a piece of gum in a hole in a dam... and that is exactly what happened with this "community reinvestment act"... yet when the Republicans (John McCain was a sponsor) tried to REGULATE it, they were called Racists, and the democrats demagogued the fact while parading around and praising the then CEO of Fannie Mae Franklin Raines, and also Jim Johnson (another former CEO of Fannie Mae...) That was over 2 years ago... we could have stopped this crumbling then, but if we had poor people on welfare would not be able to buy a house...:cry:

[DaedalusHelios]

Mlupple, have you no decency.

Why so many insults in a row?

Your lucky our mods dislike liberal views, or you would be infracted many times by now in this discussion alone. Quit putting insults before the word liberal please.

This thread reminds me of cold war smear tactics of the right-wing. Joseph McCarthy's tactics were just like republican talk radio is today. Nothing to say but insults about everyone that doesn't completely agree with them.