Not a flame war...trying to prove a point

[jessicafae]

MHO a linux compute farm of blade or rack servers is better than any Mac or PC and a Petaflop super computer beats them all. So what is the point here. There is nothing wrong with either the Mac or the PC, they are what they are, just as there is nothing wrong with the PS3, Xbox360 or a $300 EEEpc. People buy Macs for different reasons than people buy PCs just as people have different reasons for buying a $5000 workstation or a $100,000 compute cluster. I thought the point of this thread was recommending a computer for serious video/audio encoding. For this a dual processor machine is better and the $3299 MacPro is a very good choice.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

HajiMe MaShiTe, Genki desu ka?

 

[CJCerny]

These kinds of discussions are completely pointless unless we know what his preferred software is for doing his work. If he has tried lots of different A/V editing tools and prefers Final Cut Pro over anything else, then he needs to get a Mac because it's a Mac only product. If his tools of choice are available on both PC and Mac, then and only then do you stand a chance of covincing him that the PC is a faster and cheaper way to go. My point is that many people choose the Mac because they prefer the software--I suspect they're all well-aware that the hardware is more expensive.

 

[newtekie1]

*Why choose the 1 CPU mac? upgrading later wll either void the warranty (by doing it yourself) or the cost will be absurd. Personally i think the 2 CPUs mac is the way to go.

Uprading the CPU or anything in a Mac will not void the warranty. However, Apple will not warranty the old part you are replacing or the new part. However, everything else will still be warrantied.

Personally, I would get the basic Mac Pro and upgrade it myself, no need to pay $300 for 1TB drives when you can get them for under $100 elsewhere(actually I just bought two 1.5TB drives for $99.99).

 

[qubit]

You're totally right about the Mac being an overpriced waste of money.

For video encoding, you really just need the fastest processor around and the fastest graphics card, as that's where the most power is needed. If you can get a boost using SLI or Crossfire, then so much the better. I don't know if you can on video encoding, so please research it before spending any money!

Maxing out the PC parts cost makes your point well, but I think that if you do another price list with cheaper components will reinforce your point. Just max out on the CPU & GPU -requirement not that much different to game playing, really. Two GTX 295s in SLI will likely smoke anything else on video encoding with nvidia's Badaboom software and will cost a damn sight less, too. It'll leave the Mac in the dust, of course. Then make the comparison with the Mac and watch your friend's jaw drop.

Also, am I right in saying that with Apple, you void the warranty if you open the case? That's a real dealbreaker for Apple right there in my book. Wanna put an extra gig of ram in there? That'll be an extra $300 for the Apple store to do it. And you don't even get to choose which RAM goes in. Ridiculous.

 

[jessicafae]

what happend to quad processors??

An i7-920 is a quad-core processor. A dual-processor system has 2 sockets each having a quad-core processor. There are only a handful of quad-processor systems out there and they are expensive (HP DL500 is a quad-processor system each processor can have 4 or 6 cores).

 

[FreedomEclipse]

An i7-920 is a quad-core processor. A dual-processor system has 2 sockets each having a quad-core processor. There are only a handful of quad-processor systems out there and they are expensive (HP DL500 is a quad-processor system each processor can have 4 or 6 cores).

ah my bad, I misunderstood your earlier post.

 

[Fitseries3]

A mac is only a pc running osx with an apple logo slapped on the case.

not at all.


macs have no bios and therefore cannnot be overclocked.

yes it uses standard PC parts but the mac mobo's are far different.

apple provides updates that update the boards onboard firmwares to keep it running smooth.

the entire mac computer is based on a highly optimized configuration that allows it to run really well.

that said....

its an overpriced, over glorified computer for sure.

i suggest buying one used if you MUST have one.

 

[farlex85]

As usual w/ macs, the hardware for the money isn't great. You can always get the same thing for less in a PC. But as usual w/ macs, software is what sells the platform. If they're doing movie editing Final Cut Pro is an industry standard and it's only for OS X. Sure you could use other things to accomplish the same tasks for cheaper, but many would rather just go w/ the ease and wealth of background already coming pre-packaged w/ the mac.

 

[strick94u]

Truth is mac people are scared of pc's what with all our bsod and virus/worms and our complacated app's. Don't get me wrong a mac is a pc just like a linux os might scare some windows users. there is one great feature about a mac a year from now his 3200 dollar pc will still maintain its value where as a 3200 pc will be worth a 1000 if your lucky. I have run Photoshop since 1994 on pcs and their are plenty of great apps that will run a/v on mac/win/linux. If you can change his mind to pc you my friend will be the next Zig Ziggler.
On a personal note I can live with any of the above but I game and want the ability to increase my power as needed. So windows makes it easy

 

[btarunr]

How about this for a simple recommendation.
- single processor -> do a PC build
- dual processor -> get the $3299 MacPro since one can not do better (cheapest dual-processor HP workstation is ~$5300, building a dual-processor box from parts is expensive and troublesome).

for serious video editing/encoding (ie 24/7 workflows) a dual processor machine will be better than a single processor machine until the multi-core Larabee/GPU solutions get mainstream. For casual editing/encoding a fast single-processor is good-enough.

The $3299 he is paying for is a machine with a single processor, did you realise?

Expensive? Compared to HP and Apple? No. Troublesome? (no, you'll just be installing two processors, and a couple of more memory modules, if that qualifies as troublesome). He can build a dual-processor WS for that price, if he wants to.

 

[KingPing]

thats where I cant agree with you - I'm not saying your wrong but personally Since I know that among where I live, my friends & my huge family (6 uncles, around 8-10 aunties & their kids, I am the most experienced & the most tech knowledgable one & that to me carries some responsibilty wheather you choose to accept it or not.

I like being around my friends & family - I like helping people with their problems if I can even if they are not friends or family - secondly if your moaning about your friends moaning that something that you built is not working correctly then you my friend are doing it wrong.

I dont mind if my auntie or friend calls me up & says somethings not working & I can narrow down what the problem is in my head after asking a few question & understand if its a big or small problem, I dont mind at all - the people that I build systems for probably didnt know how to look after their pc properly but after a small talk about regular virus scans & other stuff - I havent had to call me up in months. but I pop around now n again to see them anyway & I sort out whatever issues they have. once youve told them a few times, they will learn just like anyone else unless they have a memory span of a goldfish & forget whatever youve told them as soon as you step out the door to go home.


being a custom system builder it is you who sets the standard of the quality of your builds, & if people are complaining about things going wrong then you need to set your standards higher, not to meet other peoples expectations - its just so that you have some peice of mind that the rig you build can withstand being thrown out of a window, hit by a car then set on fire & carried 100miles south underneath the wheels of a train before being swallowed up by a great big fucking whale & spat out somewhere in the sahara desert & still work when its plugged into a camel.

your thinking is also somewhat flawed - just because you didnt build it doesnt mean that people/friends/family wont ask you for help when their pc that comes from DELL or <Insert OEM Here> goes wrong, or is that what your saying???


custom building & support shouldnt be a chore. Much love goes into my system builds & my support. so dont knock it just because you dont have what it takes to do it.

This post is not about me. I never said: Hey don't build your friend a custom PC. Not everyone is willing to do what you do, that was my point. I study and work, so i can't help my friends and relatives 24/7, this is my problem, and i really like figuring out whats wrong. especially with systems i didn't built , i never had a serious problem with PCs i built (2 are mine, 2 of a very good friends, 1 of my dad, 1 of my brother, they all work and i helped all of them) the others i only give advice about what components to use. The guy who owned the 8800 never clean it, and i told him he have to, what can i do kidnap his PC and clean it?. I explained to that people that it's not like an office PC, and even so he bought it. My Grandfather keeps buying compac PCs, i don't know in the USA but here almost everything voids the warranty, so i can't help him when things goes wrong.

I say this because at first i told my friends to get high end systems, but i wonder what would happen to a OC i7 and 2 285 sli if the user can't configure it properly (BIOS, drivers, sli, OC,...) Now i ask them very seriously about this sort of things, if they know this or are willing to know. and believe me some are not willing to.

I respect your opinion, you do it bacause you like it, perfect, but you cannot expect every one else to think like you. I just wanted the guy to realize this is not as simple, maybe he alredy know this and have no problem dealing with this things,in wich case my post was a waste, if not, now i hope he knows.

 

[jessicafae]

Yes I saw that the $3250 MacPro in this discussion is a strange configuration. It is a single 4-core processor with an expensive 4870 and expensive 1TB drive additions (as I said in post #18)

You're right the MacPro configuration above is strange, it is $3250 for a single processor MacPro with a 4870 and two over priced 1TB drives(come on apple $300 for a 1TB drive). If the guy wants a mac for video editing/encoding he is much better off with the $3299 dual socket machine and the standard GTS120 (aka 9500gt) card and don't buy hard drives from apple. For video editing/encoding the dual processors will help. The $3299 Mac Pro has dual XEON processors (not desktop i7 chips) and this apple/intel dual socket motherboard has 4 PCI-e x16 slots (2 slots at x16 electrical and 2 slots at x4 electrical but all 4 slots at x16 mechanical).

The $3299 he is paying for is a machine with a single processor, did you realise?

Expensive? Compared to HP and Apple? No. Troublesome? (no, you'll just be installing two processors, and a couple of more memory modules, if that qualifies as troublesome). He can build a dual-processor WS for that price, if he wants to.

I am talking about a different MacPro configuration. There is a standard $3299 (different number) configuration on the Mac store for a dual processor machine with 6GB RAM, an Nvidia GTS120, and a single 640GB drive. If you need me to make a screen grab I will do this.

For $3299 one can buy a dual processor MacPro and this machine is not comparable to a single processor x58 build. It is more comparable to what I and newtekie1 and Willie E are talking about. Today, for serious video editing/encoding a dual-processor machine is better than a single-processor machine (until the GPU/Cuda/OpenCL code gets into mainstream software). Badaboom is cool and the way forward, but we don't know what software this guy is using and he might not be using software that has upgraded to Cuda/OpenCL/GPU yet.

I am sorry I did not make this clearer. We are talking different MacPro configurations here. Yes Apple is expensive but there are very few dual-processor machines out there. It is a niche market aimed mostly at the video-editing, content-creation professional.

The basic dual-processor MacPro (the $3299 standard configuration) is a good machine for the price. If we want a fair comparison we should be comparing a good MacPro build against a similar PC build. The MacPro in this discussion is not a good build (apple charges $400 for those two 1TB drives and $200 for the 4870). Mac people know this. One should buy a standard mac from Apple and buy memory and harddrives after-market. The single-processor MacPro is expensive and like I recommended....

How about this for a simple recommendation.
- single processor -> do a PC build
- dual processor -> get the $3299 MacPro since one can not do better (cheapest dual-processor HP workstation is ~$5300, building a dual-processor box from parts is expensive and troublesome).

for serious video editing/encoding (ie 24/7 workflows) a dual processor machine will be better than a single processor machine until the multi-core Larabee/GPU solutions get mainstream. For casual editing/encoding a fast single-processor is good-enough.

... if one can get away with a single-processor machine then a PC build is a better choice. If one needs a dual-processor machine for serious work, then the dual-processor $3299 MacPro is a good choice. Most people do not need a dual-processor machine.

Actually it is good to wait right now because there will be the autumn Mac refresh coming soon, prices will drop and configurations will change. Likely the MacPro will get the GTS220 or GT240 cards Nvidia just released very soon. There might even be an i5 lynnfield MacPro coming soon. For my workplace, we use computing clusters and simple desktop machines (laptops, iMacs or PCs) and skip the dual-processor boxes.

I apologize for not hating Mac's and being computer agnostic. I hope this post clarifies my point. しょうがない

 

[TheMailMan78]

Yes I saw that the $3250 MacPro in this discussion is a strange configuration. It is a single 4-core processor with an expensive 4870 and expensive 1TB drive additions (as I said in post #18)





I am talking about a different MacPro configuration. There is a standard $3299 (different number) configuration on the Mac store for a dual processor machine with 6GB RAM, an Nvidia GTS120, and a single 640GB drive. If you need me to make a screen grab I will do this.

For $3299 one can buy a dual processor MacPro and this machine is not comparable to a single processor x58 build. It is more comparable to what I and newtekie1 and Willie E are talking about. Today, for serious video editing/encoding a dual-processor machine is better than a single-processor machine (until the GPU/Cuda/OpenCL code gets into mainstream software). Badaboom is cool and the way forward, but we don't know what software this guy is using and he might not be using software that has upgraded to Cuda/OpenCL/GPU yet.

I am sorry I did not make this clearer. We are talking different MacPro configurations here. Yes Apple is expensive but there are very few dual-processor machines out there. It is a niche market aimed mostly at the video-editing, content-creation professional.

The basic dual-processor MacPro (the $3299 standard configuration) is a good machine for the price. If we want a fair comparison we should be comparing a good MacPro build against a similar PC build. The MacPro in this discussion is not a good build (apple charges $400 for those two 1TB drives and $200 for the 4870). Mac people know this. One should buy a standard mac from Apple and buy memory and harddrives after-market. The single-processor MacPro is expensive and like I recommended....



... if one can get away with a single-processor machine then a PC build is a better choice. If one needs a dual-processor machine for serious work, then the dual-processor $3299 MacPro is a good choice. Most people do not need a dual-processor machine.

Actually it is good to wait right now because there will be the autumn Mac refresh coming soon, prices will drop and configurations will change. Likely the MacPro will get the GTS220 or GT240 cards Nvidia just released very soon. There might even be an i5 lynnfield MacPro coming soon. For my workplace, we use computing clusters and simple desktop machines (laptops, iMacs or PCs) and skip the dual-processor boxes.

I apologize for not hating Mac's and being computer agnostic. I hope this post clarifies my point. しょうがない

You're Japanese. What the hell do you know about electronics?

 

[jessicafae]

You're Japanese. What the hell do you know about electronics?

ありがとう. Actually I am an American living in Japan, but thanks for the complement.

 

[TheMailMan78]

ありがとう. Actually I am an American living in Japan, but thanks for the complement.

Do you feel like a Gundam warrior being taller than everyone?

 

[MilkyWay]

you buy mac for mac software like final cut pro you dont buy it for any other reason
you may just prefer mac operating systems

thats it really the video editing software is really good on a mac and its stable

pcs can have a mix of hardware which can be good and for A/V i would use just a regular keyboard and mouse as its worthless having all those extra needless buttons for what the pc gets used for

hardware wise pc but mac for its good software and stability its not like you can custom pick a macs hardware like a pcs but that can be a good thing as far as stability goes

 

[MilkyWay]

macs do hold value where as pcs tend to drop in value unless you sell it as a whole unit later on

at first pcs tend to be better for selling the individual components rather than the full thing but later they drop value so much it becomes worth more as a whole then selling individual

 

[DaveK]

For home use it's best to just buy a PC at half the price, for a company with money to spend go nuts but personally I'd go for PC.

To be honest, I don't see how a Core i7 rig, 12GB DDR3 and 2 4890s wouldn't be able to handle video editing, Sony Vegas 9 Pro is the way to go, costs €600 but it's for professional use.

EDIT: Wait, that's so VAGUE. He does a LOT of video editing? So do I and my dual core rig has been fine with it, it's what he's editing that matters. Is he going to put a video on YouTube or edit a Hollywood blockbuster? A simple quad core rig or even dual core rig is fine for normal video editing with some effects.

Europe's leading Imaging and Sound Association has awarded Sony Creative Software winner of the European HD Video Editing Solution category for Vegas™ Pro 9.

The EISA Judging Panel commented: "At a price that's affordable for amateur video enthusiasts, Sony's Vegas Pro 9 gives you a full professional editing solution. It is easy to use, and at the same time covers an unlimited number of audio/video tracks and a large range of video formats, including DV, HDV and variety of AVCHD formats. Additionally Vegas Pro 9 handles professional formats like XDCAM, SD/HD-SDI and RED 4k. You can mix 5.1 audio, and for thorough colour grading you can extend your editing suite with an AJA break-out solution, showing the video picture on a real TV screen. The software works smoothly on a normal, powerful PC. And if price is still an issue, you can choose one of the much cheaper Vegas Movie Studio packages with limited specifications, yet sharing the same professional, but still easy, user interface."

 

[Guru Janitor]

you buy mac for mac software like final cut pro you dont buy it for any other reason
you may just prefer mac operating systems

thats it really the video editing software is really good on a mac and its stable

pcs can have a mix of hardware which can be good and for A/V i would use just a regular keyboard and mouse as its worthless having all those extra needless buttons for what the pc gets used for

hardware wise pc but mac for its good software and stability its not like you can custom pick a macs hardware like a pcs but that can be a good thing as far as stability goes

This is the one thing that many PC enthusiasts refuse to understand. Companies, editing enthusiasts, schools, students, all buy macs for the SOFTWARE. They are willing to pay the premium, because the software is better. Many people don't understand that Editing on mac is MUCH more stable then on a PC. For example, a non-linear software option on pc (lets say Avid MC) has to run through twice the code of that as software on a mac (Final Cut). Even on a clean install of XP Pro, Avid crashes more than Final cut does on OSX. And this is coming from personal use as well.

 

[Wile E]

You're totally right about the Mac being an overpriced waste of money.

For video encoding, you really just need the fastest processor around and the fastest graphics card, as that's where the most power is needed. If you can get a boost using SLI or Crossfire, then so much the better. I don't know if you can on video encoding, so please research it before spending any money!

Maxing out the PC parts cost makes your point well, but I think that if you do another price list with cheaper components will reinforce your point. Just max out on the CPU & GPU -requirement not that much different to game playing, really. Two GTX 295s in SLI will likely smoke anything else on video encoding with nvidia's Badaboom software and will cost a damn sight less, too. It'll leave the Mac in the dust, of course. Then make the comparison with the Mac and watch your friend's jaw drop.

Also, am I right in saying that with Apple, you void the warranty if you open the case? That's a real dealbreaker for Apple right there in my book. Wanna put an extra gig of ram in there? That'll be an extra $300 for the Apple store to do it. And you don't even get to choose which RAM goes in. Ridiculous.

And badaboom doesn't have some of the more advanced filters available to use to maximize quality in the same bitrate. Badaboom looks like shit compared to my cpu encoded stuff. Your point is moot. Not to mention, Final Cut is already partially gpu accelerated anyway.

And no, you don't void the warranty by opening a Mac Pro. You can swap cards, ram, HDDs, cpus, whatever you like. You just lose the warranty on the objects you removed from the computer, which is exactly how ALL oems work anyway. Again, your point is moot.

Finally, for around the price listed in the OP, he can grab a dual quad core Mac, and smoke your cheaper single cpu PC.

As usual w/ macs, the hardware for the money isn't great. You can always get the same thing for less in a PC. But as usual w/ macs, software is what sells the platform. If they're doing movie editing Final Cut Pro is an industry standard and it's only for OS X. Sure you could use other things to accomplish the same tasks for cheaper, but many would rather just go w/ the ease and wealth of background already coming pre-packaged w/ the mac.

For the last time, NO YOU CAN'T. Why don't people do some research on this? Build a Workstation around Xeon mobos and cpus, and registered ram, and the high quality casing, and the same software capabilities out of the box. Als o price other OEMs for the similar configurations while you're at it. Mac Pros are very competitive in price in their market segment.

The $3299 he is paying for is a machine with a single processor, did you realise?

http://img.techpowerup.org/090823/Capture109.jpg


Expensive? Compared to HP and Apple? No. Troublesome? (no, you'll just be installing two processors, and a couple of more memory modules, if that qualifies as troublesome). He can build a dual-processor WS for that price, if he wants to.

Right, and you can buy the dual cpu Mac Pro for about that price as well. That's the OP's fault for poorly configuring.

ありがとう. Actually I am an American living in Japan, but thanks for the complement.

Yay for Gaijin powers!!! lol.

 

[freaksavior]

Im not going to read this whole thread because i dont want to go off one someone like i did last time. it is not good for my name here.

If your friend wants a mac, let him get one. I love my mac, yes they are expensive and some what over priced.
Yes there is software out there for pc in doing video, photo, and audio editing, but the mac pro is server grade hardware, the elegance of the case, the peace of mind of it working, and the OS X environment makes it worth it. the mac pro is a workstation machine designed for what he wants to do.

also, please, do not say they are pieces of shit just because

A) you dont have one
b) you can't afford one
c) you have never given them a chance
d) Have used one to check your email for 10 minutes
e) because you play games (VM WARE FUSION!!)
f) because you brain is the size of a ant and you refuse to open your mind and explore other possibility beside windblows

Thank you

 

[Wile E]

Im not going to read this whole thread because i dont want to go off one someone like i did last time. it is not good for my name here.

If your friend wants a mac, let him get one. I love my mac, yes they are expensive and some what over priced.
Yes there is software out there for pc in doing video, photo, and audio editing, but the mac pro is server grade hardware, the elegance of the case, the peace of mind of it working, and the OS X environment makes it worth it. the mac pro is a workstation machine designed for what he wants to do.

also, please, do not say they are pieces of shit just because

A) you dont have one
b) you can't afford one
c) you have never given them a chance
d) Have used one to check your email for 10 minutes
e) because you play games (VM WARE FUSION!!)
f) because you brain is the size of a ant and you refuse to open your mind and explore other possibility beside windblows

Thank you

Let me correct one thing, and that's point e. VMware fuzion is terrible for demanding games. Boot Camp is the way to go.

 

[freaksavior]

Let me correct one thing, and that's point e. VMware fuzion is terrible for demanding games. Boot Camp is the way to go.

You sir are correct, i was just trying to say you can play games on your ma, only because everyone say you cannot. This rumor spreads because those people do not bother pulling their heads out of their ass. :shadedshu

 

[FordGT90Concept]

If you're goal is to play games, Mac OS X is the wrong place to look.