Which would be the better upgrade: CPU or GPU?

[Sir_Real]

So in your eyes running a gtx580 on a single core celeron 2.4ghz cpu will run fine because a gpu cannot be slowed down by a weak cpu !

Ok if ya say so

 

[qubit]

So in your eyes running a gtx580 on a single core celeron 2.4ghz cpu will run fine because a gpu cannot be slowed down by a weak cpu !

Ok if ya say so

I don't think you understood my explanation.

Let's make up an example. The numbers are fake, but illustrate the principle:

A Celery gets 25fps in UT3 with, say, an 8800 GTX, a powerful in its day, but old card now. That same card will get 100fps with my E8500. The game is therefore limited to 25fps by the cheapie Celery.

If you then upgrade the card to a GTX 580, you will still see that crap 25fps, or slightly better, perhaps 30fps. That GTX 580 with a top of the range CPU will then get 600fps in UT3.

If you then go GTX 580 SLI with the Celery, you might only get 19fps, because the CPU cannot get over the driver overhead for SLI. The SLI setup with the high end CPU will now get 1000fps.

Bottom line is that substituting a more powerful card for a weaker one, does not load the CPU more.

This is all I'm saying.

 

[n-ster]

That comment is totally wrong ! What do you think the term bottlenecking is referring to ?

Putting a higher spec gpu in WILL put more load on the cpu & if your cpu isn't up to the job then you can see lower frame rates with a better gpu.

You need to read up on bottle necking a gpu

Please do not spread misinformation.

A better GPU WILL NOT result in lower framerates as it does not load the CPU more lol...

His 4ghz Dual core WILL NOT be a bottleneck for many games... Of course, maybe in GTA IV, BF:BC2 and SupCom 2-like games it may be, but not in most games. And even with the bottleneck, the CPU intensive games will be very playable

Term bottlenecking means that the computer will not go faster than the slowest parts of the process. Since in games, the CPU and GPU are the 2 main components, If the games so much of the CPU it is maxed out at, say, 60fps, then even if the GPU is capable of 80fps, that maximum fps will be 60fps, hence the CPU bottleneck. If a CPU is capable of 120fps but the GPU only of 40fps, then there is a severe GPU bottleneck. As of today, in games, games a severely more dependent on GPU then CPU. While a P4 will severely bottleneck a GTX580, his CPU will bottleneck it only a bit

IMO he will get on average, 85~90% of the GTX580's capability

 

[qubit]

Thanks n-ster. And I love the fact that with an "overpowered" GPU, I can just turn up the eye candy without losing performance (ie keep it above 60fps minimum).

 

[niko084]

CPU CPU CPU.... You need CPU, dual cores don't cut it anymore, period!
I have an i3 @ 4.0ghz and a GTX465 and a i5-760 @ 3.6ghz with a GTS450 it RAPES the i3 if that gives you any kind of idea, considering how much more powerful the 465 is.

Realistically with your current setup you might be best off just grabbing like a Q9550 or Q9650 and go from there, that alone should get you up pretty good.

Considering you hang onto video cards that long I wouldn't go busting out on a GTX580, when in a year you will probably be able to grab another card for $200 that will be faster than it and use half the power. Unless you are staying top tier release after release you are way better off buying a lower level card and upgrading more often IMO.

Now some of what N-Ster said is very true as well, although some people should really consider opening up a resource monitor sometimes... Bad Company 2 for instance I believe runs like 20 something threads... Support quad core or not, 20 threads is 20 threads, just because each one is only threaded to 2 cores doesn't mean a dang thing!

Now if you dropped a GTX580 in there you would get a FPS increase, but you would also get an FPS increase if you dropped a Q9550 and clocked her to 3.8.

I would strongly urge you to go the CPU route, because if you are only getting 60fps with that card you are playing a newer game that will love you for the new CPU.

 

[n-ster]

CPU CPU CPU.... You need CPU, dual cores don't cut it anymore, period!
I have an i3 @ 4.0ghz and a GTX465 and a i5-760 @ 3.6ghz with a GTS450 it RAPES the i3 if that gives you any kind of idea, considering how much more powerful the 465 is.

Realistically with your current setup you might be best off just grabbing like a Q9550 or Q9650 and go from there, that alone should get you up pretty good.

Considering you hang onto video cards that long I wouldn't go busting out on a GTX580, when in a year you will probably be able to grab another card for $200 that will be faster than it and use half the power. Unless you are staying top tier release after release you are way better off buying a lower level card and upgrading more often IMO.

Now some of what N-Ster said is very true as well, although some people should really consider opening up a resource monitor sometimes... Bad Company 2 for instance I believe runs like 20 something threads... Support quad core or not, 20 threads is 20 threads, just because each one is only threaded to 2 cores doesn't mean a dang thing!

Now if you dropped a GTX580 in there you would get a FPS increase, but you would also get an FPS increase if you dropped a Q9550 and clocked her to 3.8.

I would strongly urge you to go the CPU route, because if you are only getting 60fps with that card you are playing a newer game that will love you for the new CPU.

It all depends on which game... As I said, BF:BC2 and GTA IV and SupCom 2 are going to be very bottlenecked CPU-wise, but most games are not going to depend that power from the CPU

But nick is right in the sense that your next upgrade should be a nice 3.5ghz+ (after OC) quad. It will not you back by alot and improvements WILL be seen, though many people would be surprised that the improvements aren't HUGE

 

[xBruce88x]

just asking... if your gts450 i5 is faster than the gtx465 i3, shouldn't you swap which system has what card?

I think the simplest way to put it with the bottleneck, the system can only perform as fast as the weakest link.

 

[GSquadron]

i'm musing the possibility of upgrading part of my system in the next few months.

Basically, i want to achieve better minimum gaming frame rates in the latest games and perhaps have dx11 compatibilty, although that still aren't many games that really use and benefit from it. But i'd still like to have it. :d

my system at the moment (the main bits relevant to this)

e8500 3.16ghz dual core cpu at 4.11ghz
4gb (2 sticks) ocz flex 2 pc2-9200 (1150mhz ddr2)
gtx 285
corsair hx850w psu
1920x1200 lcd monitor

i would be looking to spend around £300-£400 and i'm wondering if i'd be better off upgrading the cpu to a quad core i7-something, mobo & ddr3 or get a gtx 580. I'd like to get cpu & gpu of course, but that's just too much money to shell out.

cpu

 

[REDDLINE]

Heres a great explanation of bottlenecking from Linus from NCIX,

He gives good examples and great demonstrations on how bottlenecks work.
I really dont think your CPU is being much of a bottleneck, but i could be wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGdo75gasaQ

 

[GSquadron]

He gives good examples and great demonstrations on how bottlenecks work.
I really dont think your CPU is being much of a bottleneck, but i could be wrong.

What amazes me here is that you showed a video with a core duo, the guy has.
The gts 450 is even worse than the card he has and he will get about 30fps in the video with that card.
This means that you didn't get a thing from the video you suggested :shadedshu

 

[{JNT}Raptor]

Buy the part that can move with you when you upgrade your platform.......and it isn't the CPU.

4gig dual core Intel will only hold the 580 back a little....nothing as drastic as is being spoken here.....LGA 775 is at EOL....pointless spending money there if you ever have the platform upgrade itch down the road.

Hope it helps.

 

[n-ster]

What amazes me here is that you showed a video with a core duo, the guy has.
The gts 450 is even worse than the card he has and he will get about 30fps in the video with that card.
This means that you didn't get a thing from the video you suggested :shadedshu

Are you saying a 1.8ghz C2D is the same as a 4ghz one?

 

[GSquadron]

No, but still a C2D is old for these graphic cards

 

[n-ster]

No, but still a C2D is old for these graphic cards

dude, a 2MB cache Beginning of '07 1.8GHZ (E4300) POS cannot even remotely be compared to an E8500 4ghz 6MB cache

 

[qubit]

Thanks for all your replies people.

Judging by the back and forth on CPU/GPU recommendations, I'd say the answer isn't clear cut, but a nice murky, grey area instead. I reckon it depends a lot on which games I'm playing and the quality settings I'm using.

Part of the reason I want to have the top card, is so that I can run the few DX11 games and demos around (which will grow) with good performance. Judging by what I've read, one needs all the GPU horsepower one can get for this kind of rendering.

Therefore, while the GTX 580 is probably a little overpowered for my CPU, it's still the card I'd want to get if I had the money to spend on it, so I'll just wait for now.

@SpeedsticK: great video! I already knew this stuff, but it was really nice to see it explained like this. Perhaps this will convince Sir_Real of what myself and n-ster are trying to explain to him? Notice how it was already dated by the reference to the GTX 480 as the "top card"? Things move fast in the PC arena.

What amazes me here is that you showed a video with a core duo, the guy has.
The gts 450 is even worse than the card he has and he will get about 30fps in the video with that card.
This means that you didn't get a thing from the video you suggested :shadedshu

SpeedsticK simply wanted to explain CPU/GPU bottlenecking - which was explained very well by that video. The specific examples used weren't relevant.

 

[xBruce88x]

haha when i saw that vid i instantly thought of downtown traffic. good vid tho

 

[Sir_Real]

Please do not spread misinformation.

A better GPU WILL NOT result in lower framerates as it does not load the CPU more lol...

His 4ghz Dual core WILL NOT be a bottleneck for many games... Of course, maybe in GTA IV, BF:BC2 and SupCom 2-like games it may be, but not in most games. And even with the bottleneck, the CPU intensive games will be very playable

Term bottlenecking means that the computer will not go faster than the slowest parts of the process. Since in games, the CPU and GPU are the 2 main components, If the games so much of the CPU it is maxed out at, say, 60fps, then even if the GPU is capable of 80fps, that maximum fps will be 60fps, hence the CPU bottleneck. If a CPU is capable of 120fps but the GPU only of 40fps, then there is a severe GPU bottleneck. As of today, in games, games a severely more dependent on GPU then CPU. While a P4 will severely bottleneck a GTX580, his CPU will bottleneck it only a bit

IMO he will get on average, 85~90% of the GTX580's capability

Ok i'll explain what i mean better. I've built many pc's & played around with many cpu & gpu combinations in my 20 odd yrs of using pc's so i know this is correct info.

Right take this example of cpu & gpu combinations:

1, P4 3ghz single core + Nvidia GT220

2, P4 3ghz single core + Nvidia GTX580

Now imagine running cod 4 on these two rigs ! The first combination you'll be able to run the game smooth long as you don't go o.t.t with the res & graphics settings.
Now system two will run cod 4 like crap. Even with the same low graphics settings used for system 1.

Basicly a old P4 carnt run a GTX580 ! A high end gpu DOES put more load on the cpu than a low end gpu. Hence the new high end gpu's need a good quadcore cpu to get things rolling smooth.

An E8500 is a better match to something like a gtx460 or hd5850 than a gtx580 thats basicly all i was saying.

Then again thats is a very good price qubit is getting a gtx580 for & if he upgrades the E8500 to a Q9550 or Q9650 he'll av himself a cracking gaming rig

 

[qubit]

@Sir_Real:

Once again, the more powerful card does not load the CPU more. I have no idea where you get this idea from?

Did you even see my explanation to you?

I also strongly recommend that you look at the video that SpeedsticK posted, which says the same as me and is interesting anyway. Also, if you look at comparative CPU performance reviews - the ones where they test a whole range of CPUs from cheap to pricey - you'll see that they use the same high end graphics card for all of them.

Finally, show us one, just one review or article that shows that a more powerful graphics card loads a weaker CPU more. You won't find it.

My own experience with my hardware shows this to be true as well. The only time a more powerful card will perform worse than a weaker one is where there is a system glitch such as a bad driver or fault with Windows, something like that. And faults like this are pretty damn rare.

I suspect that you're confusing the driver overhead/load put on by a dual GPU card solution, which will lower performance with a weaker CPU.

Seriously, this misconception should be put to bed now.

Re my GTX 580: unfortunately, it was a "pricing error" by Amazon and they cancelled my order the next day. Yeah, it would have been awesome.

 

[Sir_Real]

Yeah we'll av agree to disagree on this one lol Its hardly important anyway

 

[n-ster]

Ok i'll explain what i mean better. I've built many pc's & played around with many cpu & gpu combinations in my 20 odd yrs of using pc's so i know this is correct info.

Right take this example of cpu & gpu combinations:

1, P4 3ghz single core + Nvidia GT220

2, P4 3ghz single core + Nvidia GTX580

Now imagine running cod 4 on these two rigs ! The first combination you'll be able to run the game smooth long as you don't go o.t.t with the res & graphics settings.
Now system two will run cod 4 like crap. Even with the same low graphics settings used for system 1.

Basicly a old P4 carnt run a GTX580 ! A high end gpu DOES put more load on the cpu than a low end gpu. Hence the new high end gpu's need a good quadcore cpu to get things rolling smooth.

An E8500 is a better match to something like a gtx460 or hd5850 than a gtx580 thats basicly all i was saying.

Then again thats is a very good price qubit is getting a gtx580 for & if he upgrades the E8500 to a Q9550 or Q9650 he'll av himself a cracking gaming rig

This is a misconception... It doesn't need a quad to get things rolling smooth, it needs the quad to be able to be used to its full potential

You have to understand that the GPU DOES NOT PUT MUCH STRESS ON THE CPU IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! What stresses the CPU is the GAME itself (ie: AI and calculations n shit).

There are going to be some games where even a 3GHZ dually WILL NOT BOTTLENECK the GTX580...

Again, this argument you make is moot as THE GPU DOES NOT STRESS THE CPU enough to matter. it is the program or game itself

Therefore, your COD4, at worst, will play the same on the GTX 580.... in reality, it will benefit from it by a few fps

 

[qubit]

Yeah we'll av agree to disagree on this one lol Its hardly important anyway

Hardly important?! It's handbags at dawn my friend! Just name the time and place! lol

 

[assaulter_99]

Basicly a old P4 carnt run a GTX580 ! A high end gpu DOES put more load on the cpu than a low end gpu. Hence the new high end gpu's need a good quadcore cpu to get things rolling smooth.

An E8500 is a better match to something like a gtx460 or hd5850 than a gtx580 thats basicly all i was saying.

There is a lil misconception here. A gtx580 will run fine on a p4, depending on the game, that is. But who in their right mind will pair these two anyway? Its complicated to explain exactly what bottlenecking is on a forum, but one thing I have learned down the years is that it is better to have a better gpu/inferior cpu than the other way around. Like the little example you showed, I'd rather have a p4+gtx580 than a core i7 980+gt220. (to play a single threaded game, that is, again going by your example)

 

[Sir_Real]

There is a lil misconception here. A gtx580 will run fine on a p4, depending on the game, that is. But who in their right mind will pair these two anyway? Its complicated to explain exactly what bottlenecking is on a forum, but one thing I have learned down the years is that it is better to have a better gpu/inferior cpu than the other way around. Like the little example you showed, I'd rather have a p4+gtx580 than a core i7 980+gt220. (to play a single threaded game, that is, again going by your example)

I have tested what i said above. I own a old LGA775 P4 3.2 & it works in my P5Q-e & crossfire HD4870's rig. But when i tested 3dmark06 or games such as cod4 the frame rates where a joke was like watching a slide show.

Bout 3 yrs ago i was using this same P4 3.2 cuppled with a hd2600xt & that used to run cod4
quite smooth !

 

[n-ster]

#1 Crossfire may be the problem here

#2 same exact settings, resolution and freshly installed OSes?

 

[assaulter_99]

I have tested what i said above. I own a old LGA775 P4 3.2 & it works in my P5Q-e & crossfire HD4870's rig. But when i tested 3dmark06 or games such as cod4 the frame rates where a joke was like watching a slide show.

Bout 3 yrs ago i was using this same P4 3.2 cuppled with a hd2600xt & that used to run cod4
quite smooth !

There surely must be something wrong with that. I have a pal that has a p4 3.0 and he has a 9600gt and I can tell you that he runs every game fine, even though he doesn't game at insane resolutions (now I don't know at which res you tested that). Bear in mind that a 4870 is far better than a 9600gt. I'm telling you this because the game he plays most is actually COD4, and seeing him play, it wasn't a slideshow.

I'll go with n-ster there, crossfire or another thing going on there.