Is downloading and playing the leaked Crysis 2 legal?

[qubit]

same way i can say they have lost a potential sale

see, if the game is a SP only, after enjoying the game, you ruddy hell ain't gonna buy it man..

A potential sale is not at all like an actual sale, so it really means nothing.

To take the RIAA's ridiculous every download is a lost sale argument to task, imagine the following scenario:

12 year old Johnny has downloaded 2000 songs off p2p networks. Using the RIAA's dodgy logic, our kid who has no money would have actually paid for all 2000 tracks! Clearly bollocks.

Now, imagine, an adult man or woman, say 30 years old and has a reasonable job. It still doesn't work.

A basic rule of economics states that the cheaper something is, the more it will sell. Therefore, there's gonna be hundreds of tracks on our downloader's collection that they'll have just because they could. They may not even like it. It's a bit obvious then, that those tracks cannot be lost sales.

And what of the ones they like? Yes, funnily enough our downloader is likely to buy those too (just look at how successful DRM-free iTunes is) especially if they want special edition CDs and such, plus it drives interest in the bands. This in turn tends to drive sales of gigs and merchandise. www.techdirt.com is really good at explaining all this.

Essentially, so-called "piracy" has a positive net effect on sales, not negative.

 

[scaminatrix]

Nothing obscure. You are breaking the law.

That's where it gets confusing. Sometimes (depends on which country you're in) you're not breaking the law, but you're breaking a Statute. The Statute can be enforced upon, and given the "force of law", but it's not actually law. They can act upon your person using a statute, but only if you agree to it (through the means of the contract (EULA))

Our countries are very much the same when it comes to laws and statutes, Mailman. We speak English, our Police Officers speak "Legalese". You gotta learn the Legalese, as it's completely different.
Think of Laws as a thing of the past, Statutes are the new Wild Card.

 

[entropy13]

It's not stealing, hence what they can file are civil lawsuits and not criminal charges.

Thus it's John Doe v. The One that Filed the Lawsuit, not John Doe v. The United States of America/some other country/or a US state (since all crimes are deemed "against" the State).

 

[TheMailMan78]

It's not stealing, hence what they can file are civil lawsuits and not criminal charges.

Thus it's John Doe v. The One that Filed the Lawsuit, not John Doe v. The United States of America/some other country/or a US state (since all crimes are deemed "against" the State).

How is it not stealing? You are taking something without paying for it?! I mean its not rape. Its surprise butt sex!

 

[HammerON]

I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil so far
I appreciate everyone's opinion and I think this is a "healthy" debate

 

[TheMailMan78]

That's where it gets confusing. Sometimes (depends on which country you're in) you're not breaking the law, but you're breaking a Statute. The Statute can be enforced upon, and given the "force of law", but it's not actually law. They can act upon your person using a statute, but only if you agree to it (through the means of the contract (EULA))

Our countries are very much the same when it comes to laws and statutes, Mailman. We speak English, our Police Officers speak "Legalese". You gotta learn the Legalese, as it's completely different.
Think of Laws as a thing of the past, Statutes are the new Wild Card.

Again see WIPO.

 

[qubit]

How is it not stealing? You are taking something without paying for it?! I mean its not rape. Its surprise butt sex!

Because the creator still has their copy, as I've explained several times now. That's why the word infringement was defined. It certainly is that.

Surprise butt sex - now that's funny!

 

[scaminatrix]

Again see WIPO.

What does that mean? Aah I see.

 

[entropy13]

How is it not stealing? You are taking something without paying for it?! I mean its not rape. Its surprise butt sex!

Because it involves "dispute resolution...between individuals, business entities or non-profit organizations."

Lawsuits are brought about by "a plaintiff, a party who claims to have incurred loss as a result of a defendant's actions, demands a legal or equitable remedy."

In the United States, larceny is a common law crime involving theft. Under the common law, larceny is the trespassory taking (caption) and carrying away (asportation, removal) of the tangible personal property of another with the intent to deprive him or her of its possession permanently.

The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use.

For example, if X goes to a restaurant and, by mistake, takes Y's scarf instead of her own, she has physically deprived Y of the use of the property (which is the actus reus) but the mistake prevents X from forming the mens rea (i.e., because she believes that she is the owner, she is not dishonest and does not intend to deprive the "owner" of it) so no crime has been committed at this point. But if she realises the mistake when she gets home and could return the scarf to Y, she will steal the scarf if she dishonestly keeps it. Note that there may be civil liability for the torts of trespass to chattels or conversion in either eventuality.

 

[WhiteLotus]

I like how everybody automatically becomes experts in every legal system in the world whenever this pops up.

Of course there are gray shades as to the legality of it, but there are none in the morality of it. You get something for free by pirating, how is that in anyway moral? Imagine being a developer and then finding out the game you've been painstakingly making gets leaked and pirated around the world. Soul destroying.

 

[scaminatrix]

Because it involves "dispute resolution...between individuals, business entities or non-profit organizations."

Lawsuits are brought about by "a plaintiff, a party who claims to have incurred loss as a result of a defendant's actions, demands a legal or equitable remedy."

I agree with you some, but I think you're making the common mistake - you're looking at definitions from an English Dictionary. You should be looking at definitions from Black's Book Of Law (or your country's variant) as words have completely different meanings to a real dictionary...

 

[entropy13]

Of course there are gray shades as to the legality of it, but there are none in the morality of it. You get something for free by pirating, how is that in anyway moral? Imagine being a developer and then finding out the game you've been painstakingly making gets leaked and pirated around the world. Soul destroying.

Ah indeed. As I have mentioned already, the Catholic Church deemed the printing press a work of the devil and would destroy the livelihood of monks who painstakingly hand-copy books.

OH NOES THE BIBLE IS GOING TO GET LEAKED TO EVERYONE!!! THE PRINTING PRESS WOULD BE DEPRIVING THE MONKS OF THEIR WORK!!! IT IS A WORK OF THE DEVIL!!! WE MUST DESTROY IT!!!

Remember that back then not a lot of people know how to read because there is no incentive to do so, as the supply of books is very small, and thus very expensive. With the advent of the printing press, supply is no longer that much of a problem, and this also coincided with further development of universities, as well as the basic education system of countries, which was now increasingly being taken over by the state from the Church.

 

[GSquadron]

For me, it doesn't even interest that much. After all the game gets out it is illegal
Also, the leak is the mistake of Crytek. They did a wrong move
That is all my opinion, but also the leak is totally illegal
It is like some hackers make programs, but they don't use them, others do

 

[entropy13]

I agree with you some, but I think you're making the common mistake - you're looking at definitions from an English Dictionary. You should be looking at definitions from Black's Book Of Law (or your country's variant) as words have completely different meanings to a real dictionary...

Nope, not a dictionary. I have the booklets of the Family Code of 1991, the Revised Penal Code and the Revised Labor Code here. All of which are roughly based on US laws, considering they were first created during their occupation of our country in the early 20th Century.

 

[WhiteLotus]

Ah indeed. As I have mentioned already, the Catholic Church deemed the printing press a work of the devil and would destroy the livelihood of monks who painstakingly hand-copy books.

OH NOES THE BIBLE IS GOING TO GET LEAKED TO EVERYONE!!! (Remember that back then not a lot of people know how to read because there is no incentive to do so, as the supply of books is very small, and thus very expensive).

What has that got to do with anything?

 

[entropy13]

What has that got to do with anything?

No "grey shades" of morality you say, while in the example I mention the "authority in matters of morality" was the one that was "wrong."

 

[WhiteLotus]

No "grey shades" of morality you say, while in the example I mention the "authority in matters of morality" was the one that was "wrong."

So now please try and apply that to modern day examples. Don't worry I'll wait.

 

[scaminatrix]

Nope, not a dictionary. I have the booklets of the Family Code of 1991, the Revised Penal Code and the Revised Labor Code here. All of which are roughly based on US laws, considering they were first created during their occupation of our country in the early 20th Century.

Aah, you're using Civil Law.
If you can, get hold of the Corporation Code. Since you enter into a contract with Crytek when playing the game, this will be interesting. You'll find some words have completely different meanings.

 

[entropy13]

Aah, you're using Civil Law.
If you can, get hold of the Corporation Code. Since you enter into a contract with Crytek when playing the game, this will be interesting. You'll find some words have completely different meanings.

I'm looking for it, but no luck. At least the physical copy. Good thing there's the internet. I'm perusing the Intellectual Property Code of my country right now, as well as the Corporation Code and the Revised Penal Code.

From our RPC:
"Felonies are committed not only be means of deceit (dolo) but also by means of fault (culpa).

There is deceit when the act is performed with deliberate intent and there is fault when the wrongful act results from imprudence, negligence, lack of foresight, or lack of skill. "

As I have said, it's not stealing since there is now deliberate intent to deprive the owner, and in the case of this leak the fault lies with Crytek and not with whoever gets it, so it's not akin to "stealing", although yes it is possible to file lawsuits.

 

[entropy13]

So now please try and apply that to modern day examples. Don't worry I'll wait.

Modern day example? Well, is there an OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now, one that is accepted and consented to by everyone, and thus there is a concrete "right-and-wrong" dichotomy?

 

[scaminatrix]

I'm looking for it, but no luck. At least the physical copy. Good thing there's the internet. I'm perusing the Intellectual Property Code of my country right now, as well as the Corporation Code and the Revised Penal Code.
As I have said, it's not stealing since there is now deliberate intent to deprive the owner, and in the case of this leak the fault lies with Crytek and not with whoever gets it, so it's not akin to "stealing", although yes it is possible to file lawsuits.

Just goes to show - you may be able to avoid the LAW by being in a certain country, but no matter where you are, you have breached a contract by playing the game and can be dealt with however that corporation (Crytek) sees fit (take you to court and want money).

 

[WhiteLotus]

Modern day example? Well, is there an OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now, one that is accepted and consented to by everyone, and thus there is a concrete "right-and-wrong" dichotomy?

So no then, you can't think of a way in which piracy is moral.

 

[entropy13]

I don't have a copy of the Crysis 2 EULA, so I'll be basing this on the EULA for Crysis Warhead.

The EULA is operating under the assumption that you will be using the game, and therefore have to agree with the terms of the agreement.

However, in the case of the Crysis 2 leak, it is possible that there was no such agreement between Crytek and the one that "leaked" it, since it is possible that the individual neither downloaded, installed or used it at the start, and therefore unable to even agree to the EULA.

Thus the ultimate source may not be culpable for not following terms he did not agree to. However it's the succeeding persons that may be subject to civil action because they did agree to the terms (since they were able to play).

It is interesting to see though that essentially this is merely "permission" for you to play (referring to a thread dealing with that here in TPU), as when Crysis Warhead is finally "pulled out of the market", the Licensee (the end-user) have no right to use the game in any manner, and shall immediately destroy all copies of the game.

Which therefore essentially nullifies the "stealing" argument, as the EULA itself is basically saying that the Licensee "never really had possession" of it, and since larceny/theft presupposes that the owner of the property is deprived of it, it would not apply here.

 

[entropy13]

So no then, you can't think of a way in which piracy is moral.

Piracy can be argued as moral because there is no OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now.

Well actually ever since the first civilizations began.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Piracy can be argued as moral because there is no OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now.

Well actually ever since the first civilizations began.

Man I really wish the Philippines had something WORTH stealing. Anyway I gotta get back to work. Ill be back to destroy all arguments later.