Real swords in video games; Oakeshott’s Typology

[1Kurgan1]

I for one agree that games should always be 100% accurate at all times. It offends me greatly whenever a game is not totally realistic down to the most minute detail. I think while we are at it we should make it so that right when you die the game is over and you can never play it again, ever. You get shot once, game over man, move on to the next game because you're done.

Why does everyone have to be sarcastic, or are people just reading the OP then responding, because about 10 people have already beat you to the punch, this post has been so off topic.

To see some real swords would be nice, he's sick of anime crap, he's not saying 100% realistic. I guess Battlefield and COD aren't 100% real, since they aren't maybe they should be dressed as clowns with jet packs that shoot balloon animals... theres 2 ends to the spectrum, and a bunch of variation between, don't forget that middle, it does exist and almost any game out there uses it, he's just looking to see that move a bit more towards the realistic side.

 

[newtekie1]

Why does everyone have to be sarcastic, or are people just reading the OP then responding, because about 10 people have already beat you to the punch, this post has been so off topic.

To see some real swords would be nice, he's sick of anime crap, he's not saying 100% realistic. I guess Battlefield and COD aren't 100% real, since they aren't maybe they should be dressed as clowns with jet packs that shoot balloon animals... theres 2 ends to the spectrum, and a bunch of variation between, don't forget that middle, it does exist and almost any game out there uses it, he's just looking to see that move a bit more towards the realistic side.

That is my point, we aren't playing simulations, we are playing games. There aren't giant tentical monsters either, so why complain about the swords being used to fight them not being real enough? He doesn't have a problem with the giant tentical monster, but if that sword doesn't look practical it offends him? Tell me that makes sense.

 

[Easy Rhino]

we get it, the guy wants to see some realistic swords in some video games. fine. you really cant take the discussion anywhere meaningful from there...that is why all the trolling lol!

 

[streetfighter 2]

Most games are fairly decent on their sword accuracy IMO. It's not like they released the model S-134X sword during the renaissance. You really only have standard classes of swords, much as you do pikes, axes, bows, catapults, etc.. I think only the Japanese can boast about having swords identifiable by the swordsmith, eg. Masamune.

Seriously, Bushido Blade 2. Man that game is awesome!

I for one agree that games should always be 100% accurate at all times. It offends me greatly whenever a game is not totally realistic down to the most minute detail. I think while we are at it we should make it so that right when you die the game is over and you can never play it again, ever. You get shot once, game over man, move on to the next game because you're done.

http://www.theonion.com/video/ultrarealistic-modern-warfare-game-features-awaiti,14382/

 

[DannibusX]

Theres different types of fantasy though, there are low fantasy games, and some of them use absurd weapons.

True, but fantasy is fantasy and not exactly reality. Cloud Strife would still be an interesting character without his huge sword, but he's pretty friggen awesome with it.

I also think you may have missed my point about weapon barriers in game, 24 lbs is RIDICULOUS for a sword but not so much in a world where heroes have seemingly superhuman strength. Comparatively, an M60 weighs in just under 24 lbs, but you're supposed to lay on the ground and shoot that thing, lol.

 

[the54thvoid]

Comparatively, an M60 weighs in just under 24 lbs, but you're supposed to lay on the ground and shoot that thing, lol.

Lies!!!

I charge into battle standing on the hood of a jeep with an M60 in each hand with Ride of the Valkryies playing over an old school ghetto blaster at volume level 11. And my drivers smokes sticks of TNT instead of cigars. And he wears a sleeveless camo top. We're not gay.

 

[Captain.Abrecan]

I for one agree that games should always be 100% accurate at all times. It offends me greatly whenever a game is not totally realistic down to the most minute detail. I think while we are at it we should make it so that right when you die the game is over and you can never play it again, ever. You get shot once, game over man, move on to the next game because you're done.

I love the sarcasm, but to appeal to people who take your joke seriously there is a hardcore mode in diablo 2 Blizzard is a great developer for thinking of that. Interestingly, the models for their weapons are awesome, but so are the names. They even give the polearms historically accurate names, like partizan.

Besides the point that the swords are shaped in a certain way to allow the Kunst des Fechtens martial art. There is a reason for this debate, and it extends beyond realism in form. It is a precedent that can allow realism in function. New gameplay mechanics.

That is my point, we aren't playing simulations, we are playing games. There aren't giant tentical monsters either, so why complain about the swords being used to fight them not being real enough? He doesn't have a problem with the giant tentical monster, but if that sword doesn't look practical it offends him? Tell me that makes sense.

Because if it doesn't look practical then it isn't practical. The specific geometry of a sword dictates what style of fencing it is used in. That would be like guns in COD being designed so the barrel faces the user, even though the bullets come from the front. NOW we can see how the form is important to function.

I will try to find a better analogy if this doesn't work, but that represents exactly how ass-backwards the swords look to me. Like a gun that shoots backwards. You can't use it.

Sure COD is not a simulation...but they get enough right. Imagine if the ak 47 was single shot? what if the revolver had 30 shots and was automatic? What if you reloaded the m16 by stuffing gunpowder & a lead ball down the barrel? That is equivalent to what we are dealing with.

Lies!!!

I charge into battle standing on the hood of a jeep with an M60 in each hand with Ride of the Valkryies playing over an old school ghetto blaster at volume level 11. And my drivers smokes sticks of TNT instead of cigars. And he wears a sleeveless camo top. We're not gay.

Is that what I can expect from Duke Nukem? I never played the first one, but the antics sounds like a crazy patriot game that will have me laughing the whole way.

Imagine a new Afro Samurai game where the moves come from Kenjutsu? That would be cool.

 

[Easy Rhino]

how much of a demand is there for historically accurate swords? i would say there is very little demand. not that it would be any more difficult for the game devs to include them but most games that include swords are fantasy based and therefore are supposed to be unrealistic. some fairly historically accurate games like the total war series have real weapons because well they are supposed to be historically accurate. to me, you simply want more games that are historically accurate rather than fantasy based. there a number that you can choose from. however, i doubt you will convince game devs that they need to make their video games, on the whole, more realistic since they are in fact games.

p.s. i cant believe ive been sucked into the most meaningless discussion on video games since the beginning of video games.

 

[Benetanegia]

I would like to see the weights of swords in upcoming games like Skyrim revised to match historically accurate blades. The Steel Longsword in Oblivion weighs 24 pounds (I think so, feather symbol?), which is complete tripe. Possibly the reason for this is the mutilation of sword forms through Hollywood and the Video Game Industry over the years. Many people might actually believe that 24 pounds makes sense for a longsword. These notions are horrifying to say the least, but people are entitled to their opinions.

The weight of weapons in Oblivion are just alright. Weight is not represented in pounds (nor kg), unless you think that one person could carry 500 pounds. It makes more sense to think that the weight unit is something like 1/10th of a kg. So that would make the steel longswords 2.4 kg which is alright, well within the limits of reality.

What it's wrong is the weight of nearly everything else, except maybe armor, but that's so you can carry more, it's a game.

As to the Oakeshott reference. I think that judging the realism of fantasy games based on one single medieval source is stupid. Fantasy games are NOT medieval, they are based on a mixture of sources that range from the early bronze age to late Renaissance. Technology advances and you can bet that an early bronze age sword weighted a lot more than a refined medieval sword of similar use (i.e longsword vs longsword) and alloy. They would still go to war in the Bronze age, you know, even though their weapons were much more innefficient, impractical and difficult to use...

I think that before we judge fantasy games like Elder Scroll series we should first anwer some questions. i.e. Which exact era are fantasy swords from? In which century was steel discovered in Nirn? Was it discovered in Tamriel or did the Akaviri bring it with them in one of their attacks?

And most of all, how can a silver, glass or ebony sword be so much stronger than iron or steel swords??

 

[TheMailMan78]

i cant believe ive been sucked into the most meaningless discussion on video games since the beginning of video games.

Oh I have pulled you into much stupider arguments then this.

 

[newtekie1]

I love the sarcasm, but to appeal to people who take your joke seriously there is a hardcore mode in diablo 2 Blizzard is a great developer for thinking of that. Interestingly, the models for their weapons are awesome, but so are the names. They even give the polearms historically accurate names, like partizan.

Besides the point that the swords are shaped in a certain way to allow the Kunst des Fechtens martial art. There is a reason for this debate, and it extends beyond realism in form. It is a precedent that can allow realism in function. New gameplay mechanics.

Diablo? The game with demons skeletons and werewolfs walking around?

Because if it doesn't look practical then it isn't practical. The specific geometry of a sword dictates what style of fencing it is used in. That would be like guns in COD being designed so the barrel faces the user, even though the bullets come from the front. NOW we can see how the form is important to function.

Again, you are complaining about practicality and realism in games where you are fighting monstors that don't even exist. We aren't playing simulations, we are playing games. Practicality doesn't matter in a game, nor does realism.

I will try to find a better analogy if this doesn't work, but that represents exactly how ass-backwards the swords look to me. Like a gun that shoots backwards. You can't use it.

Sure COD is not a simulation...but they get enough right. Imagine if the ak 47 was single shot? what if the revolver had 30 shots and was automatic? What if you reloaded the m16 by stuffing gunpowder & a lead ball down the barrel? That is equivalent to what we are dealing with.

Most AK-47's sold on the market today are single shot and have to modified to be fully automatic. Also, there are games with guns that are revolvers that never really run out of ammo and are automatic. They are games. Games aren't depicting how the M16 sprays oil and shit into your eyes when fired(and it does, I've fired them). They don't depict how the guns jam. Because they are games.

 

[ShiBDiB]

huh? since when do m16's spray oil in the eyes of the shooter.. hell since when do m16's have oil in them at all... unless u used wayyyy too much CLP

 

[Easy Rhino]

boy oh boy this couldn't possibly be foreseen! please stay on topic regarding "swords in video games" lmao! on topic i said!!! *chucke*

 

[erocker]

What I want to talk about is a demand for historically accurate swords in video games.

A lot of video games occur in a medieval-fantasy setting, and with that setting we get swords. Some swords have a practical design, for example the iron & steel swords in Morrowind. Diablo 2 also used historically accurate models for most of the swords.

Other designs are works of fantasy. The Master Sword from the Zelda game series is a beautiful fantasy sword, for instance. Swords in the Dragon Age series are unwieldy and impractical, in my opinion they are offensive in nature (in that they offend me). There should be a push for historically accurate swords, whose balance of mass mimics the Oakeshott Typology. Swords much like the ones sold by Albion would be preferable.

In Oakeshott’s ‘Records of The Medieval Sword’ (ISBN-13: 978-0851155661) we can see that Ewart spent most if his life carefully weighing and measuring many swords. The upper tolerable limit for the weight of a longsword is 4 pounds. The lower limit is 2.75. Hardly controversial, looking at dimensions of swords from private collections and museums reveals that the weights in Ewart’s book are conventional.

It seems then, that American reference for a sword has gone far off the beaten path.

I would like to see the weights of swords in upcoming games like Skyrim revised to match historically accurate blades. The Steel Longsword in Oblivion weighs 24 pounds (I think so, feather symbol?), which is complete tripe. Possibly the reason for this is the mutilation of sword forms through Hollywood and the Video Game Industry over the years. Many people might actually believe that 24 pounds makes sense for a longsword. These notions are horrifying to say the least, but people are entitled to their opinions.

There needs to be a return to the realistic, to the functional.

We can initially outline two of the largest problems with going in this direction. One is that it becomes harder to turn a sword into a artistic piece if it’s dimensions are constrained. The other is that without constraints, the swords mutate over time until they are completely fake in nature.

For an example of what I might want, YMMV, is seeing an Albion Regent or Albion Sempach equivalent in the next medieval-fantasy game. Actually, all of the swords should be modeled after Albion swords; but that is only my personal opinion.

What do you guys think? I really want to know, chances are most people haven’t noticed. But for me, this issue is pervasive; it gives me a nervous tick. I want to start a petition, or at least a formal letter of advisement to some developers.

What you need is a fighting simulator. Unfortunately for you, when it comes to video games it involves fantasy and artistic creativity. You're basically wishing for rainbows, unicorns and world peace. Great, wonderful and awesome things that will never happen.

 

[Easy Rhino]

well, rainbows do exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI

 

[Captain.Abrecan]

What you need is a fighting simulator.

There we go, that works. I want a fighting simulator. Thanks. Probably not going to happen though, if it was we would have already seen a sport fencing game. Maybe I can make a mod pack for Skyrim or something.

Either way I am happy... I just wanted everyone's opinion. I believe I even posted a disclaimer of sorts in there, 'What do you guys think? I really want to know, chances are most people haven’t noticed. But for me, this issue is pervasive; it gives me a nervous tick.'

 

[ShiBDiB]

There we go, that works. I want a fighting simulator. Thanks. Probably not going to happen though, if it was we would have already seen a sport fencing game. Maybe I can make a mod pack for Skyrim or something.

Either way I am happy... I just wanted everyone's opinion. I believe I even posted a disclaimer of sorts in there, 'What do you guys think? I really want to know, chances are most people haven’t noticed. But for me, this issue is pervasive; it gives me a nervous tick.'

Props to you for taking this abuse well. We still dont have accurate weapons physics in shooters, itll be a long time before we have any in medieval era games.

 

[erocker]

There we go, that works. I want a fighting simulator. Thanks. Probably not going to happen though, if it was we would have already seen a sport fencing game. Maybe I can make a mod pack for Skyrim or something.

Either way I am happy... I just wanted everyone's opinion. I believe I even posted a disclaimer of sorts in there, 'What do you guys think? I really want to know, chances are most people haven’t noticed. But for me, this issue is pervasive; it gives me a nervous tick.'

If you like mele fighting games, give Pirates Vikings & Knights II a try. It isn't really realistic in terms of weapons detail, but the mele system is pretty good. It's also free on Steam.

 

[Easy Rhino]

If you like mele fighting games, give Pirates Vikings & Knights II a try. It isn't really realistic in terms of weapons detail, but the mele system is pretty good. It's also free on Steam.

Valhalla!!!

 

[Captain.Abrecan]

If you like mele fighting games, give Pirates Vikings & Knights II a try. It isn't really realistic in terms of weapons detail, but the mele system is pretty good. It's also free on Steam.

Damn, thanks. Strolled through the site, gonna do that when I get home. Thanks!

 

[Bjorn_Of_Iceland]

Maybe try learning some 3d modelling app and do mods for a game?

You can also try Rune, some of the viking swords models there are accurate

 

[1Kurgan1]

That is my point, we aren't playing simulations, we are playing games. There aren't giant tentical monsters either, so why complain about the swords being used to fight them not being real enough? He doesn't have a problem with the giant tentical monster, but if that sword doesn't look practical it offends him? Tell me that makes sense.

Why care about anything then. I want to fly my jet ski through the skies of BC2, it's not real so why should their be any limit.

 

[kuroikenshi]

Meh, i'll bite on this... I would suggest reading Berserk. Its a well known Manga in Japan. The artist for it is a huge fan on historically and functional correct armor and weapons. I think you would get your rocks off on it.

 

[ShiBDiB]

Meh, i'll bite on this... I would suggest reading Berserk. Its a well known Manga in Japan. The artist for it is a huge fan on historically and functional correct armor and weapons. I think you would get your rocks off on it.

this has absolutely nothing to do with gaming...

 

[Nailezs]

1) i actually agree with OP that games need more realistic looking weapons. some of these giant behemoths of swords are damn offensive to my logical mind.
2) ShiDiB, most of this thread has been off-topic, mods included, with no infractions or real warnings, so i fail to see how you can bash that post.
3) from my interpretation the OP isnt asking for a melee fighting simulator. he is simply asking for some logical thought into the design of swords, and hopefully other weapons, in fantasy games, in regard to how they would look, feel, and act in the real world. i fail to see how this would be difficult to put into our typical fantasy rpg's. a accurate simulation of melee combat is not being asked for(and would be impractical with any type of controller system, imo. we'd probably need full VR or neural inputs for this), just some decent weapons that dont look like total drival. in some cases, simpler is better.