• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

anyone else beta testing Elder scrolls online?

Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
5,976 (1.09/day)
Location
Cybertron aka Canada
Processor Intel Core i5-3570K
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V Pro
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 8GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3-1600
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GTX 670
Storage Intel 520 60GB, Seagate Barracuda XT 2TB
Display(s) BenQ 24" XL2420T
Case Corsair 550D
Audio Device(s) Sennheiser HD600, Audeze LCD-3F, Mytek Stereo 192 DSD, La Figaro 339, Burson HA-160, Geek Pulse X
Power Supply Corsair AX650
Mouse steelseries Sensei MLG edition
Keyboard Cooler Master QuickFire Pro
Software Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium
the reason I brought up EVE is because it's considered the most hardcore MMO out there. it has a steep learning curve but rewards players who are patient. it's a game for the intellectual.. the average age is 30 or 35. you can't win because there is no level cap. the developers allow players to pay subscription with in-game currency instead of real money and the expansions are free. you will get a rush from PvP because when you lose a ship it's gone forever. it's a true sandbox experience with risk, scamming, player driven market and other things (see below). EVE Online has outlived every MMO because it doesn't chase World of Warcraft.

if you want to see what the other side of the coin looks like.. check it out.

 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Messages
3,626 (0.90/day)
Location
GMT +2
System Name Red Radiance l under construction
Processor 5800x
Motherboard x470 taichi
Cooling stock wrath
Memory TridentZ Neo rgb 3600mhz (2x8 kit)
Video Card(s) Sapphire Vega 64 nitro+
Storage 970 evo nvme
Display(s) lc27g75tq
Case tt core x5 tge
Audio Device(s) sennheiser's pc323d usb soundcard
Power Supply corsair AX860i
Mouse roccat burst pro
Keyboard roccat ryos mk fx
Software windows 10
ESO is a singular base game, WoW and all its expansions is just that. The base game, plus a few years of extra content. Not that I play WoW anymore, too many kids.

I want ESO to be awesome, I'll wait until the base game cost is at a reasonable price before I attempt to play it. This high cost is due to consoles though. If it were PC only it would be £30.
if i remember well blizz asked about 30-40euro for pandaria when expansion came out and it wasnt including 30days free. 2 years back i got my wow copy free from bnet promo and i remember i had to pay about 40+ euro to get expansions till cata which at that time was 3-4 months old.
yes it it was pc only it would be cheaper but truth is console players are wider audience and if we want to play it longer (and beth to get $$$ longer) it has to be available for consoles too (or if we have to be correct pc players pay more so they can get console game ported to pc).
other option is to wait 2-3 months initial hype to pass and then to get it when price drop to 30 as you pointed in edit which i didnt read
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
3,937 (0.64/day)
System Name Widow
Processor Ryzen 7600x
Motherboard AsRock B650 HDVM.2
Cooling CPU : Corsair Hydro XC7 }{ GPU: EK FC 1080 via Magicool 360 III PRO > Photon 170 (D5)
Memory 32GB Gskill Flare X5
Video Card(s) GTX 1080 TI
Storage Samsung 9series NVM 2TB and Rust
Display(s) Predator X34P/Tempest X270OC @ 120hz / LG W3000h
Case Fractal Define S [Antec Skeleton hanging in hall of fame]
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar Xense with AKG K612 cans on Monacor SA-100
Power Supply Seasonic X-850
Mouse Razer Naga 2014
Software Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores FFXIV ARR Benchmark 12,883 on i7 2600k 15,098 on AM5 7600x
well since in eso "classes" are quite relative and actually you can start with any class and at the end you can have completely different class i think you can give it a try with alliance you like and later to upgrade to imperal editon if you think you enjoy the game and you want to play it. in beta i made redguard dragon knight (or whatever was class named) and dark elf sorcerer and i didnt noticed siginificant impact of the racial perks to gameplay but i leveled to 6-7 lvl.


depends on what you mean by "accomplish anything". leveling in game is quest driven (at least in 2 starting zones) and considering that killing mobs gives you misserable 5-20xp when you need about 4-5k for lvl4->lvl5 you are actualy encouraged to do quests and explore cause like in skyrim while roaming countryside you can meet quest at any point and that is aside of loot/crafting mats you can find.
picking up quest is quite similar to skyrim. speaking with npc gives you quest goals in brif. if you like to know more you can explore dialog options you have, if you dont want to bother say "i'll be back" and run after compass marker. for half to an hour you can do 2-3 short quests or complite long quest line from start to end if you dont folow side quests. problem is that all quests stories are soo addictive (at least quests i have met) that you actually wont end with only 1/2 to an hour gaming (i wont for sure). if you are talking about lvling then with up to an hour at least at the beginning you will lvl rather slowly cause even quest give more exp then killing mobs they dont give so much xp that you get lvl after turning 2 quests. i havent played long enough to check if power lvling is possible so i cant say how things going when you reach continent (first 2 zones for redguard are on islands).
rcoon has lvl10+ toons may be he can share his impresions.
i havnt tried pvp or dungeoning but from what i have saw yes game is not skyrim but definitely it is TES game. you cant mistake it with wow, gw or other mmo game


Since you already let it slip - low experience from mob kills - is one aspect that absolutely kills ESO's chance at really solidifying itself as a contender.
They may spread out the quests, and throw in some random locations for them (instead of the obvious outpost quest hubbing we've become accustomed to), but it's still the same style of progression.
I can't think of the last MMO that had good experience per mob kills, which would then provide you a completely alternative option to how you progress.

Though the real transcending issue is that ESO is still using a numerical progression based system (that's no secret). This is one thing they copied from TES, that they shouldn't have.

Anyways, I'll spill morsels as I release more update articles on Overlord gaming, but until then, it's an ok game, just not what it could be.


EDIT: Bumble, while EVE is awesome, I don't think you're going to get any converts here.
 

Kreij

Senior Monkey Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
13,817 (2.21/day)
Location
Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA)
Since you already let it slip - low experience from mob kills - is one aspect that absolutely kills ESO's chance at really solidifying itself as a contender.

It seems to me that low XP for generic mob kills would redirect the game from a typical grind to a more quest oriented nature to give people more incentive to experience the content through questing instead of just doing mindless mob killing. I could be wrong, but that sounds better to me, not worse.
 

Ahhzz

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
8,709 (1.48/day)
System Name OrangeHaze / Silence
Processor i7-13700KF / i5-10400 /
Motherboard ROG STRIX Z690-E / MSI Z490 A-Pro Motherboard
Cooling Corsair H75 / TT ToughAir 510
Memory 64Gb GSkill Trident Z5 / 32GB Team Dark Za 3600
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2070 / Sapphire R9 290 Vapor-X 4Gb
Storage Hynix Plat P41 2Tb\Samsung MZVL21 1Tb / Samsung 980 Pro 1Tb
Display(s) 22" Dell Wide/24" Asus
Case Lian Li PC-101 ATX custom mod / Antec Lanboy Air Black & Blue
Audio Device(s) SB Audigy 7.1
Power Supply Corsair Enthusiast TX750
Mouse Logitech G502 Lightspeed Wireless / Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum
Keyboard K68 RGB — CHERRY® MX Red
Software Win10 Pro \ RIP:Win 7 Ult 64 bit
It seems to me that low XP for generic mob kills would redirect the game from a typical grind to a more quest oriented nature to give people more incentive to experience the content through questing instead of just doing mindless mob killing. I could be wrong, but that sounds better to me, not worse.

Gotta agree here. That's one thing I was pleased with right off, that I didn't make it to level 10 in 4 hours, which was the longest it took in WoW "back in the old days", even with playing around. I enjoyed that even with all the time I did have the last weekend, I barely cleared 10.
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
3,937 (0.64/day)
System Name Widow
Processor Ryzen 7600x
Motherboard AsRock B650 HDVM.2
Cooling CPU : Corsair Hydro XC7 }{ GPU: EK FC 1080 via Magicool 360 III PRO > Photon 170 (D5)
Memory 32GB Gskill Flare X5
Video Card(s) GTX 1080 TI
Storage Samsung 9series NVM 2TB and Rust
Display(s) Predator X34P/Tempest X270OC @ 120hz / LG W3000h
Case Fractal Define S [Antec Skeleton hanging in hall of fame]
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar Xense with AKG K612 cans on Monacor SA-100
Power Supply Seasonic X-850
Mouse Razer Naga 2014
Software Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores FFXIV ARR Benchmark 12,883 on i7 2600k 15,098 on AM5 7600x
It seems to me that low XP for generic mob kills would redirect the game from a typical grind to a more quest oriented nature to give people more incentive to experience the content through questing instead of just doing mindless mob killing. I could be wrong, but that sounds better to me, not worse.

Gotta agree here. That's one thing I was pleased with right off, that I didn't make it to level 10 in 4 hours, which was the longest it took in WoW "back in the old days", even with playing around. I enjoyed that even with all the time I did have the last weekend, I barely cleared 10.

I understand where you are coming from, though hear this out.


Let's consider some facts:

A) You mighty call it mindless, some people call it fun. If the combat and the interaction (or simply the game itself) is enjoyable, then why would you trade one aspect for another? Why not have a mixture?

B) You may be working under a false premise or faulty logic. The level at which you progress, is a mathematical formula that a developer decides upon and can structure around whatever game style they choose. If your argument was that 'back in the old days,' you leveled too quickly because of mob experience being high-er, than that's simply how they intended it - or in the case of really old games, possibly a mechanics imbalance.

Ultimately, they could easily make quest gains massive, and you would be level ten in one hour - no matter the method.


C)Warcraft began this quest progression style in the early 2000s. Unfortunately it went way overboard and became the default style for MMORPGs.


Often we mistake mob grind as some archaic mechanic, yet in reality, it had a shorter lifespan than quest grinding has. Effectively quest grinding is more outdated than mob grinding.

If you think about it, questing is like adventuring. You don't always go looking for it, sometimes it finds you. It can be random, unforseen and unpredictable.
Where as you could view mob grinding as practicing both literally (as you the player physically plays the game and gets better) and metaphorically, as your in-game character gains better skills/levels up.


To me that sounds more believable and realistic, than the other way around - the common MMO style - that you would go out into a world intentionally seeking adventure and find it readily available (npcs with exclamation marks), only to then run back and forth simultaneously doing these shallow 'quests,' and only killing (practicing) the bare minimum amount of enemies. You then return to a 'quest giver' and magically, with a click of a button you are suddenly and instantaneously closer to becoming more proficient, stronger and skilled.

MMORPGS are not supposed to be the Matrix. You don't just plugin and upload the knowledge.

So under that premise, they had it right to begin with all those years ago. Quests are long and winding and deep. They do not always pan out, and they don't give instant gratification. While you quest, that's when you get the experience, as you move from place to place, foe to foe. Echoing what I said above, "practicing both literally (as you the player physically plays the game and gets better) and metaphorically, as your in-game character gains better skills/levels up."


Moving onto something practical and possibly familiar to you. When is the last time you heard someone say 'well if it isn't social, it isn't an MMO' ? We hear it all the time now days. There are games being ridiculed as 'too solo oriented,' or not 'social friendly.'
Let me be clear, I dislike many people on the internet, or internet culture, however, there is some merit to what these people say (even if they believe it for the wrong reasons).

You can't expect people to interact when they don't need to, and when there's no encouragement to do so, then everyone finds themselves playing alone.
In these environments, you only interact when you have to and when you need to.
Think about group finders and automated systems that remove many elements of the act and the art of playing MMOs with other people, they are implemented as a means and a metric to support the quest grind system(s) as it inevitably results in a overtly solo oriented gaming experience.

However a game that is setup properly for monster experience grind, indirectly sends people on a collision course with one another and therefore they do interact. Whatever they do, they do it together. They meet, they greet, they communicate, they decide, they travel, they adventure, they win, they lose, they try again, they succeed, they fall, they quit, they reform, they leave, they return, they bid farewell, they send friend requests and they then repeat this cycle with their new friends, allies and like minded individuals - whom they would have not done any of the aforementioned things. because in other games, there's no need to interact that kind of level - and in some, they have cross server these activities with strangers, whom you will never see ever again!


EverQuest Online Adventures might have gotten the closest. It was primarily around mob grinding yet the quests could net significant and relative (key word) experience gains from time to time. As mentioned above, you went out looking to hone your skills (mob slaying) and along the way you quested, you adventured. It was a secondary, not a primary.


The thing to take away from it is that a good developer can make both systems work together and in some ways,

That's what we need again, and sadly ESO doesn't take that risk.
 
Last edited:

Kreij

Senior Monkey Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
13,817 (2.21/day)
Location
Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA)
@newconroer

While many people, myself included, enjoy mindless mob killing, it's still mindless. It does not take a whole lot of wherewithal to figure out your characters optimum configuration/tactics for fighting mobs. I would never want to see an MMO remove the ability for a player to just go out and kill stuff if they wish, it just should not, IMO, result in the same or better rewards than for questing.

I agree with you in that there has to be a balance to both. For instance, if you get a new weapon and want to become more proficient at it, you go out and use it. This, however, should definitely have diminishing returns. That brings up the age old argument as to whether characters in a game should have levels at all, as opposed to just becoming more proficient at their chosen abilities over time. By removing levels, you in effect remove the "magical quest completion" component of making a character better.

This also brings up the issue with repeating quests, "quest grinding" if you will. The result of quest completion should reward the player with something that is specific to the quest (ie. The Super Awesome Ultra Mega Sword of Doom). Once completed, a player should be able to redo the quest with others, but should not receive anything other than some gold and any proficiency gained by using abilities. Again, this is this my opinion.

As for the social aspect of MMOs, they are without a doubt a social mechanism to get people to play together. I don't think that this should exclude a player from venturing out on their own if they so choose. As an old school dice rolling D&D player, one of the things that made the games fun was that no matter what you tried to do, there was always a "chance" (however slim) you might succeed. Most of the games fail in this manner in that it is simply impossible to take on something that is considerable higher level than you, whether a mob or another player in PvP, if you are not part of a group. Should it be easy? Not at all. Should it be possible? Yes.

I also am not so sure I agree with your statement that just a player "can" do something alone that they will opt to do it that way, or vice versa. When you read about EVE Online you are presented quite bluntly with the fact that if you like soloing it was not the game you want to play. I soloed exclusively and loved it, which goes back to the comment that players should be given a choice on their preferred play style, even if it's not the most effective means to accomplish things.

I think that like every other MMO on the planet, over time the developers of ESO will adjust game balance, implement changes to the way things work, and eventually find a good balance for what people want in the game. While you cannot cater to one side or the other, I think that given the game is still in Beta and that it might possibly takes years of content addition and adjustment, it's a little too early to say what ESO will turn out to be like, or if they will ever "take the risk".

Thanks for the discussion !!!
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
3,937 (0.64/day)
System Name Widow
Processor Ryzen 7600x
Motherboard AsRock B650 HDVM.2
Cooling CPU : Corsair Hydro XC7 }{ GPU: EK FC 1080 via Magicool 360 III PRO > Photon 170 (D5)
Memory 32GB Gskill Flare X5
Video Card(s) GTX 1080 TI
Storage Samsung 9series NVM 2TB and Rust
Display(s) Predator X34P/Tempest X270OC @ 120hz / LG W3000h
Case Fractal Define S [Antec Skeleton hanging in hall of fame]
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar Xense with AKG K612 cans on Monacor SA-100
Power Supply Seasonic X-850
Mouse Razer Naga 2014
Software Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores FFXIV ARR Benchmark 12,883 on i7 2600k 15,098 on AM5 7600x
While many people, myself included, enjoy mindless mob killing, it's still mindless. It does not take a whole lot of wherewithal to figure out your characters optimum configuration/tactics for fighting mobs. I would never want to see an MMO remove the ability for a player to just go out and kill stuff if they wish, it just should not, IMO, result in the same or better rewards than for questing.

I would question then the game itself, not the method. Inevitably, questing or quest grinding involves these same mobs that we are discussing. The question then becomes how much interaction with them, or how much slaying results in it become 'mindless' or not enjoyable?
If you consider that - at least in group scenarios akin to the old EQ and FFXI days - there was more to it than simply bashing a monster and being successful in mere seconds. While the act and the animations may have been simple or simplistic, the entire process at times was quite complex. Once you became good at said activities, it netted more of a return than just loot or coin, but also a sense of achievement. Group building, travelling, camp placement, monster pulling, resource management(health/mana), speed and efficiency, adaptiveness, awareness, reflex, communication - it's a all part of the overall requirements. And in a way it's a form of management or micro management, which is really really popular to people.

You are correct, we would never want mobs to simply disappear - that would possibly remove the need for 'open world' locations. We might as well simply dungeon crawl from a lobby menu like Diablo type games.
Though if you want to look at a game that embodies the downfall of MMORPGS in regards to quest oriented progression, than look no further than FFXIV:ARR. The open world mobs are mere back drops and fillers, until they become part of a quest.

Interestingly, ESO in fact has gone so head first into this method, that rather than balance it by making mobs have more experience reward, they've done the opposite and tried to support this system by making quests have stories in them that you may get attached to. Which in itself is a super welcome addition, yet not at the expense of never having the need or the advantage to simply go out and hunt at your own discretion. As eluded to before, they have dressed it up fairly well by spreading things out.
I agree with you in that there has to be a balance to both. For instance, if you get a new weapon and want to become more proficient at it, you go out and use it. This, however, should definitely have diminishing returns. That brings up the age old argument as to whether characters in a game should have levels at all, as opposed to just becoming more proficient at their chosen abilities over time. By removing levels, you in effect remove the "magical quest completion" component of making a character better.

We are on the same page mostly here. Though the only correlation I see between 'skilling' progression and numerical level progression is in whether they can make them mutually exclusive - and I believe it can be done(in some games it sorta has already).
The question of 'magical quest completion' is or can be treated as a separate issue. It's only a sub component of the transcending progression system, whatever that may be.

This also brings up the issue with repeating quests, "quest grinding" if you will. The result of quest completion should reward the player with something that is specific to the quest (ie. The Super Awesome Ultra Mega Sword of Doom). Once completed, a player should be able to redo the quest with others, but should not receive anything other than some gold and any proficiency gained by using abilities. Again, this is this my opinion.

I'm pretty old school in that I do not expect any reward from a quest, especially not initially. You remember EverQuest, some things took MONTHS, and they had several stages where you received nothing but more items to carry on the journey - which is what it became.
However if we had to meet in the middle and provide a bit more instant gratification, than at least remove experience from some quests and/or reduce them so they have less impact and are therefore not seen as primary source of progression. This of course though only works if there's alternative methods, such as monster experience!

I've tried to do as much dungeon play as possible in ESO without boring myself, and for a while you can rack up fair experience gain from the monsters, however it's not a steady rate and I cannot determine the variables to the equation(metaphorically speaking). I need more time, however it's fair to say, they do not intend for you to dungeon crawl all the time - which is a shame really, because at times there's some real brilliance in the action when you play with others. You would think that developers would try to find that moment of clarity and capture like a Kodak moment, then reproduce it wherever possible.

As for the social aspect of MMOs, they are without a doubt a social mechanism to get people to play together. I don't think that this should exclude a player from venturing out on their own if they so choose. As an old school dice rolling D&D player, one of the things that made the games fun was that no matter what you tried to do, there was always a "chance" (however slim) you might succeed. Most of the games fail in this manner in that it is simply impossible to take on something that is considerable higher level than you, whether a mob or another player in PvP, if you are not part of a group. Should it be easy? Not at all. Should it be possible? Yes.

It may have been Smedley, or McQuaid whom once said that they never intended EverQuest to be a place where you were forced to interact with others, or relied on others to succeed at all aspects of the game. Unfortunately, any misplaced intolerance towards solo play, was more down to mechanics and how they were going into something a bit blind, unchartered territories so to speak. They still respected those who wanted a challenge alone.

And I have always believed and agreed that adventuring with others is a bonus, a boon, and a part of the questing experience itself - it's "random, unforseen and unpredictable."
When you force people to do something, whether alone or together, you will not win their hearts and minds the same as if you inspire or encourage them to do it.

It's odd to think that we've been forced into quest progression and games that cater to the solo play, and yet we still try to shout down the idea of concepts like monster grinding. I often wonder if people understand fully what they are saying.

As for the challenge aspect, yes, there's a significant satisfaction in being able to succeed alone, where others require assistance. Fallen Earth is great modern online game for that, and I often reference it as an example of how you can make a successful online game that's solo oriented, but not apologetic about it.
I am actually looking forward to whether ESO's world mobs will get a bit of an AI tweak and balance, so that we get more of them, but downgraded slightly so they can be solo or double teamed, rather than having to wait on thirty random strangers to come to a 'dynamic event' and then spam abilities until all the spell particles stop exploding a.k.a. the fight is over.


I also am not so sure I agree with your statement that just a player "can" do something alone that they will opt to do it that way, or vice versa. When you read about EVE Online you are presented quite bluntly with the fact that if you like soloing it was not the game you want to play. I soloed exclusively and loved it, which goes back to the comment that players should be given a choice on their preferred play style, even if it's not the most effective means to accomplish things.

Unfortunately it seems to be a growing trend. When you do not need to communicate or interact, and you know you can do things alone, you often end up heading down that path. We could call it lazy, selfish, paranoid, anti-social - it doesn't matter how we describe it, it does happen and I can understand why.
Alternatively you do not want to force people together as previously mentioned, as that can have even worse side effects.

I think that like every other MMO on the planet, over time the developers of ESO will adjust game balance, implement changes to the way things work, and eventually find a good balance for what people want in the game. While you cannot cater to one side or the other, I think that given the game is still in Beta and that it might possibly takes years of content addition and adjustment, it's a little too early to say what ESO will turn out to be like, or if they will ever "take the risk".

I'd also like to believe that ESO will eventually band people together a bit more through subtle means and if the game play gets better, there will be more people out in the open world engaging monsters for the simple play enjoyment and therefore cross paths.




The conclusion here though is that nothing about these views dictate whether or not quest progression as a concept or a template, is better than monster grinding - or maybe more importantly, why developers cannot give more credence and focus on both types of foundations.


I knew ESO might become a let down, when I started to notice various aspects that were a-typical of modern MMORPGs, and of course I realized they must only be implemented because the transcending game style and it's progression method is quest driven. And sure enough I was exactly right.
And while most of ESO's failures as a break through game are a direct result of quest progression, there's a whole host of other little things it does very very wrong, that make even the most optimistic of it's players, wish they'd never even tried the game to begin with.

It's like idolizing someone for a long time, and then when you finally get to meet them, you wish you hadn't.


Thanks for the discussion !!!

Of course, likewise.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
@newconroer

While many people, myself included, enjoy mindless mob killing, it's still mindless. It does not take a whole lot of wherewithal to figure out your characters optimum configuration/tactics for fighting mobs. I would never want to see an MMO remove the ability for a player to just go out and kill stuff if they wish, it just should not, IMO, result in the same or better rewards than for questing.

I agree with you in that there has to be a balance to both. For instance, if you get a new weapon and want to become more proficient at it, you go out and use it. This, however, should definitely have diminishing returns. That brings up the age old argument as to whether characters in a game should have levels at all, as opposed to just becoming more proficient at their chosen abilities over time. By removing levels, you in effect remove the "magical quest completion" component of making a character better.

This also brings up the issue with repeating quests, "quest grinding" if you will. The result of quest completion should reward the player with something that is specific to the quest (ie. The Super Awesome Ultra Mega Sword of Doom). Once completed, a player should be able to redo the quest with others, but should not receive anything other than some gold and any proficiency gained by using abilities. Again, this is this my opinion.

As for the social aspect of MMOs, they are without a doubt a social mechanism to get people to play together. I don't think that this should exclude a player from venturing out on their own if they so choose. As an old school dice rolling D&D player, one of the things that made the games fun was that no matter what you tried to do, there was always a "chance" (however slim) you might succeed. Most of the games fail in this manner in that it is simply impossible to take on something that is considerable higher level than you, whether a mob or another player in PvP, if you are not part of a group. Should it be easy? Not at all. Should it be possible? Yes.

I also am not so sure I agree with your statement that just a player "can" do something alone that they will opt to do it that way, or vice versa. When you read about EVE Online you are presented quite bluntly with the fact that if you like soloing it was not the game you want to play. I soloed exclusively and loved it, which goes back to the comment that players should be given a choice on their preferred play style, even if it's not the most effective means to accomplish things.

I think that like every other MMO on the planet, over time the developers of ESO will adjust game balance, implement changes to the way things work, and eventually find a good balance for what people want in the game. While you cannot cater to one side or the other, I think that given the game is still in Beta and that it might possibly takes years of content addition and adjustment, it's a little too early to say what ESO will turn out to be like, or if they will ever "take the risk".

Thanks for the discussion !!!


I would question then the game itself, not the method. Inevitably, questing or quest grinding involves these same mobs that we are discussing. The question then becomes how much interaction with them, or how much slaying results in it become 'mindless' or not enjoyable?
If you consider that - at least in group scenarios akin to the old EQ and FFXI days - there was more to it than simply bashing a monster and being successful in mere seconds. While the act and the animations may have been simple or simplistic, the entire process at times was quite complex. Once you became good at said activities, it netted more of a return than just loot or coin, but also a sense of achievement. Group building, travelling, camp placement, monster pulling, resource management(health/mana), speed and efficiency, adaptiveness, awareness, reflex, communication - it's a all part of the overall requirements. And in a way it's a form of management or micro management, which is really really popular to people.

You are correct, we would never want mobs to simply disappear - that would possibly remove the need for 'open world' locations. We might as well simply dungeon crawl from a lobby menu like Diablo type games.
Though if you want to look at a game that embodies the downfall of MMORGPS in regards to quest oriented progression, than look no further than FFXIV:ARR. The open world mobs are mere back drops and fillers, until they become part of a quest.

Interestingly, ESO in fact has gone so head first into this method, that rather than balance it by making mobs have more experience reward, they've done the opposite and tried to support this system by making quests have stories in them that you may get attached to. Which in itself is a super welcome addition, yet not at the expense of never having the need or the advantage to simply go out and hunt at your own discretion. As eluded to before, they have dressed it up fairly well by spreading things out.


We are on the same page mostly here. Though the only correlation I see between 'skilling' progression and numerical level progression is in whether they can make them mutually exclusive - and I believe it can be done(in some games it sorta has already).
The question of 'magical quest completion' is or can be treated as a separate issue. It's only a sub component of the transcending progression system, whatever that may be.



I'm pretty old school in that I do not expect any reward from a quest, especially not initially. You remember EverQuest, some things took MONTHS, and they had several stages where you received nothing but more items to carry on the journey - which is what it became.
However if we had to meet in the middle and provide a bit more instant gratification, than at least remove experience from some quests and/or reduce them so they have less impact and are therefore not seen as primary source of progression. This of course though only works if there's alternative methods, such as monster experience!

I've tried to do as much dungeon play as possible in ESO without boring myself, and for a while you can rack up fair experience gain from the monsters, however it's not a steady rate and I cannot determine the variables to the equation(metaphorically speaking). I need more time, however it's fair to say, they do not intend for you to dungeon crawl all the time - which is a shame really, because at times there's some real brilliance in the action when you play with others. You would think that developers would try to find that moment of clarity and capture like a Kodak moment, then reproduce it wherever possible.



It may have been Smedley, or McQuaid whom once said that they never intended EverQuest to be a place where you were forced to interact with others, or relied on others to succeed. Unfortunately it was more down to mechanics and how they were going into something a bit blind, unchartered territories so to speak.
And I have always believed and agreed that adventuring with others is a bonus, a boon, and a part of the questing experience itself - it's "random, unforseen and unpredictable."
When you force people to do something, whether alone or together, you will not win their hearts and minds the same as if you inspire or encourage them to do it.

It's odd to think that we've been forced into quest progression and games that cater to the solo play, and yet we still try to shout down the idea of concepts like monster grinding. I often wonder if people understand fully what they are saying.

As for the challenge aspect, yes, there's a significant satisfaction in being able to succeed alone, where others require assistance. Fallen Earth is great modern online game for that, and I often reference it as an example of how you can make a successful online game that's solo oriented, but not apologetic about it.
I am actually looking forward to whether ESO's world mobs will get a bit of an AI tweak and balance, so that we get more of them, but downgraded slightly so they can be solo or double teamed, rather than having to wait on thirty random strangers to come to a 'dynamic event' and then spam abilities until all the spell particles stop exploding a.k.a. the fight is over.




Unfortunately it seems to be a growing trend. When you do not need to communicate or interact, and you know you can do things alone, you often end up heading down that path. We could call it lazy, selfish, paranoid, anti-social - it doesn't matter how we describe it, it does happen and I can understand why.
Alternatively you do not want to force people together as previously mentioned, as that can have even worse side effects.



I'd also like to believe that ESO will eventually band people together a bit more through subtle means and if the game play gets better, there will be more people out in the open world engaging monsters for the simple play enjoyment and therefore cross paths.




The conclusion here though is that nothing about these views dictate whether or not quest progression as a concept or a template, is better than monster grinding - or maybe more importantly, why developers cannot give more credence and focus on both types of foundations.


I knew ESO might become a let down, when I started to notice various aspects that were a-typical of modern MMORPGs, and of course I realized they must only be implemented because the transcending game style and it's progression method is quest driven. And sure enough I was exactly right.
And while most of ESO's failures as a break through game are a direct result of quest progression, there's a whole host of other little things it does very very wrong, that make even the most optimistic of it's players, wish they'd never even tried the game to begin with.

It's like idolizing someone for a long time, and then when you finally get to meet them, you wish you hadn't.




Of course, likewise.


Thanks to both of you, interesting read.

I personally enjoyed ESO and probably will be buying it.
 

Kreij

Senior Monkey Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
13,817 (2.21/day)
Location
Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA)
The question then becomes how much interaction with them, or how much slaying results in it become 'mindless' or not enjoyable?

I forgot to clarify that I in no way associate "mindless" with "not enjoyable". :)
Mindless entertainment is sometimes exactly what I want to relax.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
3,187 (0.60/day)
Location
Czech republic
Processor Ryzen 5800X
Motherboard Asus TUF-Gaming B550-Plus
Cooling Noctua NH-U14S
Memory 32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon Rx 580 Nitro+ 8GB
Storage HP EX950 512GB + Samsung 970 PRO 1TB
Display(s) HP Z Display Z24i G2
Case Fractal Design Define R6 Black
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster AE-5
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME Ultra 650W Gold
Mouse Roccat Kone AIMO Remastered
Software Windows 10 x64
Anyone questioning low XP from mobs should be forced to play the original Anarchy Online with just the first expansion. You ONLY levelled up by killing mobs. I virtually spent weeks killing the same mobs over and over with random groups for up to 16 hours a day to get to the cap. There was no other way to level up.
Give me a break.
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
3,937 (0.64/day)
System Name Widow
Processor Ryzen 7600x
Motherboard AsRock B650 HDVM.2
Cooling CPU : Corsair Hydro XC7 }{ GPU: EK FC 1080 via Magicool 360 III PRO > Photon 170 (D5)
Memory 32GB Gskill Flare X5
Video Card(s) GTX 1080 TI
Storage Samsung 9series NVM 2TB and Rust
Display(s) Predator X34P/Tempest X270OC @ 120hz / LG W3000h
Case Fractal Define S [Antec Skeleton hanging in hall of fame]
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar Xense with AKG K612 cans on Monacor SA-100
Power Supply Seasonic X-850
Mouse Razer Naga 2014
Software Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores FFXIV ARR Benchmark 12,883 on i7 2600k 15,098 on AM5 7600x
I forgot to clarify that I in no way associate "mindless" with "not enjoyable". :)
Mindless entertainment is sometimes exactly what I want to relax.


Exactly. And some of the most effective systems start from a simplistic foundation.


Anyways, Pantheon might just be the savior for the MMO genre. I can't really plug it here, but the kickstarter is already under way, so get to it MMO veterans, donate!
 

Kreij

Senior Monkey Moderator
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
13,817 (2.21/day)
Location
Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA)
@newconroer You can always start a thread to discuss Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen if you would like.
 

Ahhzz

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
8,709 (1.48/day)
System Name OrangeHaze / Silence
Processor i7-13700KF / i5-10400 /
Motherboard ROG STRIX Z690-E / MSI Z490 A-Pro Motherboard
Cooling Corsair H75 / TT ToughAir 510
Memory 64Gb GSkill Trident Z5 / 32GB Team Dark Za 3600
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2070 / Sapphire R9 290 Vapor-X 4Gb
Storage Hynix Plat P41 2Tb\Samsung MZVL21 1Tb / Samsung 980 Pro 1Tb
Display(s) 22" Dell Wide/24" Asus
Case Lian Li PC-101 ATX custom mod / Antec Lanboy Air Black & Blue
Audio Device(s) SB Audigy 7.1
Power Supply Corsair Enthusiast TX750
Mouse Logitech G502 Lightspeed Wireless / Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum
Keyboard K68 RGB — CHERRY® MX Red
Software Win10 Pro \ RIP:Win 7 Ult 64 bit
Anyone questioning low XP from mobs should be forced to play the original Anarchy Online with just the first expansion. You ONLY levelled up by killing mobs. I virtually spent weeks killing the same mobs over and over with random groups for up to 16 hours a day to get to the cap. There was no other way to level up.
Give me a break.
OMG I'd completely forgotten this... thanks SO much for bringing that sour egg back up from lunch...


Thanks SpecialK and Newcon :) Nice discussion. I'll not add any more wall of text to it, but simply say I didn't have an explosive "OMG WOW" moment in ESO yet, which kept me from stealing the pre-order the other day, but I'll probably slide in a little later on a deal of the day somewhere, and be hopeful. Sometimes, the mindless grinding is enjoyable, but the thing I enjoyed most about TES games was getting so far off my quest path I forgot what I was supposed to be doing :)
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
4,267 (0.70/day)
Location
Sanford, FL, USA
Processor Intel i5-6600
Motherboard ASRock H170M-ITX
Cooling Cooler Master Geminii S524
Memory G.Skill DDR4-2133 16GB (8GB x 2)
Video Card(s) Gigabyte R9-380X 4GB
Storage Samsung 950 EVO 250GB (mSATA)
Display(s) LG 29UM69G-B 2560x1080 IPS
Case Lian Li PC-Q25
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC892
Power Supply Seasonic SS-460FL2
Mouse Logitech G700s
Keyboard Logitech G110
Software Windows 10 Pro
Already paying $10/month for LOTRO in 3 month increments and ESO will most likely have a similar multi-month discount. I know LOTRO doesn't make you buy the game, but considering I went 128hrs into Skyrim before defeating Alduin, I think I could get $60 worth of enjoyment out ESO even if it fizzles out within a year. Hopefully not of course as ESO has so much promise, especially in terms of PvP. There's enough PvMPers left in LOTRO to probably fill 3-4 servers, except we're spread out over 29 servers and transfers cost $25 USD per character. In contrast, campaign transfers in ESO cost in-game points or gold. It's also a huge frickin' domination map!
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
12,062 (2.77/day)
Location
Gypsyland, UK
System Name HP Omen 17
Processor i7 7700HQ
Memory 16GB 2400Mhz DDR4
Video Card(s) GTX 1060
Storage Samsung SM961 256GB + HGST 1TB
Display(s) 1080p IPS G-SYNC 75Hz
Audio Device(s) Bang & Olufsen
Power Supply 230W
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD+
Software Win 10 Pro
was getting so far off my quest path I forgot what I was supposed to be doing

That's happened far too many times. Especially when it comes to iron ore.
The Flesh Golem was probably my WOW moment though, even though it was a controlled single player boss encounter, it rustled me in all the right places.
 

Ahhzz

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
8,709 (1.48/day)
System Name OrangeHaze / Silence
Processor i7-13700KF / i5-10400 /
Motherboard ROG STRIX Z690-E / MSI Z490 A-Pro Motherboard
Cooling Corsair H75 / TT ToughAir 510
Memory 64Gb GSkill Trident Z5 / 32GB Team Dark Za 3600
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2070 / Sapphire R9 290 Vapor-X 4Gb
Storage Hynix Plat P41 2Tb\Samsung MZVL21 1Tb / Samsung 980 Pro 1Tb
Display(s) 22" Dell Wide/24" Asus
Case Lian Li PC-101 ATX custom mod / Antec Lanboy Air Black & Blue
Audio Device(s) SB Audigy 7.1
Power Supply Corsair Enthusiast TX750
Mouse Logitech G502 Lightspeed Wireless / Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum
Keyboard K68 RGB — CHERRY® MX Red
Software Win10 Pro \ RIP:Win 7 Ult 64 bit
That's happened far too many times. Especially when it comes to iron ore.
The Flesh Golem was probably my WOW moment though, even though it was a controlled single player boss encounter, it rustled me in all the right places.
didn't make it that far (had a delayed Christmas with my Mom and family that weekend), but I'll check with my beta guild and see if anyone made it there :)

I know I got more than my $12 monthly from WoW for the first 3 years or so, anyway, but I think I may have lost money the last couple of years I played lol. I could have been in Eve!! Eh, I've got several games I'm playing right now, altho Neverwinter is slowly falling behind to the wayside. I don't know that I'll have time to add ESO to the immediate ranks, especially since I'll need to save up some gaming brownie points for Star Citizen and Elite (and the associated gaming costs :( ).
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
12,062 (2.77/day)
Location
Gypsyland, UK
System Name HP Omen 17
Processor i7 7700HQ
Memory 16GB 2400Mhz DDR4
Video Card(s) GTX 1060
Storage Samsung SM961 256GB + HGST 1TB
Display(s) 1080p IPS G-SYNC 75Hz
Audio Device(s) Bang & Olufsen
Power Supply 230W
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD+
Software Win 10 Pro
didn't make it that far (had a delayed Christmas with my Mom and family that weekend), but I'll check with my beta guild and see if anyone made it there :)

I know I got more than my $12 monthly from WoW for the first 3 years or so, anyway, but I think I may have lost money the last couple of years I played lol. I could have been in Eve!! Eh, I've got several games I'm playing right now, altho Neverwinter is slowly falling behind to the wayside. I don't know that I'll have time to add ESO to the immediate ranks, especially since I'll need to save up some gaming brownie points for Star Citizen and Elite (and the associated gaming costs :( ).

I've flat out given up on all the multiplayer games I used to play. Started playing Loadout which is fun, and got back into XCOM. Only things I care about are Elite and Star Citizen like everybody else. Other games just got boring/dont interest me anymore. ESO would have been nice I guess, I just dislike these extras they give for preorders, I don't like preordering games. I learned my lesson with Diablo 3. ESO is on my limbo pile, which is entirely empty at this point.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Messages
3,626 (0.90/day)
Location
GMT +2
System Name Red Radiance l under construction
Processor 5800x
Motherboard x470 taichi
Cooling stock wrath
Memory TridentZ Neo rgb 3600mhz (2x8 kit)
Video Card(s) Sapphire Vega 64 nitro+
Storage 970 evo nvme
Display(s) lc27g75tq
Case tt core x5 tge
Audio Device(s) sennheiser's pc323d usb soundcard
Power Supply corsair AX860i
Mouse roccat burst pro
Keyboard roccat ryos mk fx
Software windows 10
I've flat out given up on all the multiplayer games I used to play. Started playing Loadout which is fun, and got back into XCOM. Only things I care about are Elite and Star Citizen like everybody else. Other games just got boring/dont interest me anymore. ESO would have been nice I guess, I just dislike these extras they give for preorders, I don't like preordering games. I learned my lesson with Diablo 3. ESO is on my limbo pile, which is entirely empty at this point.
the only thing that eso pre-order give is 5 days early access. shinny things come with imperial version and since there will be upgrade to imperial i bet this upgrade will be best seller in their shop
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
3,014 (0.54/day)
Location
Northampton,UK
System Name Jaffakeik
Processor I9 12900K
Motherboard MSI Pro B660M-A WIFI DDR4
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer II High Performance CPU Water cooler- 240mm
Memory Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB (2x16GB) 3600
Video Card(s) 7900XTX gigabyte OC edition
Storage WD Black SN770 1TB SSD M.2 2280 NVME x2
Display(s) TV LG C2
Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro 2 Full Tower Case Tempered
Audio Device(s) Mother board + Sennhiser HD650+ Elgato wave xlr + shure SM7B
Power Supply EVGA 1600w G+
Mouse Glorious Model 0
Keyboard Corsair RBG mini K65 + Steelseries Apex150
Software Windows 11
Benchmark Scores over 9000
Ggoott into wweekends stress test.atleast will have some idea of game what it feels like.go get my final decision buy or not buy
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
12,062 (2.77/day)
Location
Gypsyland, UK
System Name HP Omen 17
Processor i7 7700HQ
Memory 16GB 2400Mhz DDR4
Video Card(s) GTX 1060
Storage Samsung SM961 256GB + HGST 1TB
Display(s) 1080p IPS G-SYNC 75Hz
Audio Device(s) Bang & Olufsen
Power Supply 230W
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD+
Software Win 10 Pro
Ggoott into wweekends stress test.atleast will have some idea of game what it feels like.go get my final decision buy or not buy

Sadly I'll be sleeping at the gf's house this weekend, if anything awesome happens do tell me, and I can regret not being single for a while.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Messages
3,626 (0.90/day)
Location
GMT +2
System Name Red Radiance l under construction
Processor 5800x
Motherboard x470 taichi
Cooling stock wrath
Memory TridentZ Neo rgb 3600mhz (2x8 kit)
Video Card(s) Sapphire Vega 64 nitro+
Storage 970 evo nvme
Display(s) lc27g75tq
Case tt core x5 tge
Audio Device(s) sennheiser's pc323d usb soundcard
Power Supply corsair AX860i
Mouse roccat burst pro
Keyboard roccat ryos mk fx
Software windows 10
Sadly I'll be sleeping at the gf's house this weekend, if anything awesome happens do tell me, and I can regret not being single for a while.
you have small case very easy to carry around ^^
 

Ahhzz

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
8,709 (1.48/day)
System Name OrangeHaze / Silence
Processor i7-13700KF / i5-10400 /
Motherboard ROG STRIX Z690-E / MSI Z490 A-Pro Motherboard
Cooling Corsair H75 / TT ToughAir 510
Memory 64Gb GSkill Trident Z5 / 32GB Team Dark Za 3600
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2070 / Sapphire R9 290 Vapor-X 4Gb
Storage Hynix Plat P41 2Tb\Samsung MZVL21 1Tb / Samsung 980 Pro 1Tb
Display(s) 22" Dell Wide/24" Asus
Case Lian Li PC-101 ATX custom mod / Antec Lanboy Air Black & Blue
Audio Device(s) SB Audigy 7.1
Power Supply Corsair Enthusiast TX750
Mouse Logitech G502 Lightspeed Wireless / Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum
Keyboard K68 RGB — CHERRY® MX Red
Software Win10 Pro \ RIP:Win 7 Ult 64 bit
Yup, got dental surgery tomorrow, out for the week, will spend my recovery Friday sitting in front of the screen :)
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Messages
3,626 (0.90/day)
Location
GMT +2
System Name Red Radiance l under construction
Processor 5800x
Motherboard x470 taichi
Cooling stock wrath
Memory TridentZ Neo rgb 3600mhz (2x8 kit)
Video Card(s) Sapphire Vega 64 nitro+
Storage 970 evo nvme
Display(s) lc27g75tq
Case tt core x5 tge
Audio Device(s) sennheiser's pc323d usb soundcard
Power Supply corsair AX860i
Mouse roccat burst pro
Keyboard roccat ryos mk fx
Software windows 10
will spend my recovery Friday sitting in front of the screen :)
saying it this way almost makes me wish i had dental surgery too.
 
Top