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Microsoft to Strip Windows 7 of IE and WMP for Europe, Abiding by Laws

TheMailMan78

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I bet Apple is ROFLCOPTERING at this. It will certainly boost Apple sales in the EU.

Until the EU tells them they cant ship OSX with Safari or Quicktime. ;)
 
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All that was true in 2001 when XP was released, however with Vista and now Win 7 it runs in a sandbox, and thus is not tied to the the OS, thus also how they can remove it.

So IE is no more of a threat than FF, O, or Safari.

No offense, and I'll admit I haven't heard about this, but I wouldn't trust Microsoft's promises of a "sandbox" very far at all. Just the fact that even after you "uninstall" IE from Windows 7 the rendering engine still remains and is part of the operating system means that their promise isn't worth much to me.

Until the EU tells them they cant ship OSX with Safari or Quicktime. ;)

Which is coming, eventually. :laugh:
 

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Until the EU tells them they cant ship OSX with Safari or Quicktime. ;)

Apple aren't monopolizing so they won't get the same treatment :shadedshu I hope they do though, Also wouldn't ubuntu stop using firefox ?
 

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It's good that you don't condone it, because you should stop doing it, ASAP.

Most security problems involving IE do not merely involve IE not being updated as needed -- the core nature of the browser is flawed. IE is intermeshed completely with the Windows OS -- security problems with IE can thus affect your entire installation.

It's why it's such an easy vector for viruses -- no amount of patches by Microsoft is going to fix it. When a security problem is found in something like Firefox, most of the time it just affects your browser-based activities -- your cookies could be exposed, or your browser passwords, or something like that. When a security problem is found in IE, the entire OS can be compromised.

What Microsoft needs to do, IMO, is split IE's rendering engine away from the browser to use internally in their OS, and then adopt a new browser engine to use with the external internet.


I agree on the part of how closely tied IE is to the kernel . . . it's a PITA when you get the occasional browser crash and it takes down explorer with it . . .

As to the rest, yeah, I know all that . . . like I said, I don't condone the practice, and I'm fully aware of the risks . . . even still, if you keep WIN and all other applications up-to-date, the possiblity of running into risks diminishes . . . you can update IE7/8 all you want, but it won't help a bit if the OS itself is outdated and not up-to-par with the latest security patches


My issue is that everyone continues to bash IE over how unsecure, buggy and malware prone it is . . . but I fail to see that yet . . . even with browsing through the bowels of the i-net.
 

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Apple aren't monopolizing so they won't get the same treatment :shadedshu I hope they do though, Also wouldn't ubuntu stop using firefox ?

Neither was Microsoft. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. All MUST be fair.
 

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Neither was Microsoft. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. All MUST be fair.

I do hate this whole issue though. I mean they say microsoft isn't being fair but they didn't get such a huge market share because their software was bad. It was because the competition was worse.
 
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The EU and people defending the EU's decision are saying that the people that use Microsoft's OSes are forced to use the bundled software, and hence it blocks out the "competition". This is false, plain and simple. No one is forced to use IE or WMP just because they come with the OS. People choose to use them.

Really? I have never said that people are "forced" to use IE and I doubt the EU has either. Don't put words in my mouth. The bundling of IE puts them at an unfair advantage in a completely different market. Internet browsers and operating systems are different products remember.
I don't know about your experiences - but nearly every person that I have advised to use a different browser has either not known that alternatives exist, did not know that they would work on their pc or couldn't be bothered finding it, downloading it and installing it. And that is the reality outside our little bubble. We know better - but the general public does not.

And using your anology, I wouldn't have a problem with the EU forcing Chevy to remove their cola-despenser, as long as they forced every other car manufacturer to do the same. It isn't fair to force Chevy to remove their cola-depenser while allowing Dodge and Ford to keep their cola-depensers in their new cars.

Look at the time and effort involved in fighting this case against MS. The reality is that it would be impossible to apply this law (basically take someone to court) universally and all at the same time. The EU can only do what they can. Once they've finished with MS (assuming MS were to comply fully), then I'm sure the EU would turn their attention to others - but they can't do it all at once. So they started with the case/company that would have the greatest effect. Just like they did with Intel. Imposing fines on the biggest player or worst offender first will discourage the smaller players from behaving the same. If the smaller fish continue to behave badly as well then they'll be next in line.

I'm sorry newtekie, I would like to see this policed universally too, but the reality is that the resources aren't there to police everything all at once.


EDIT: Just for clarity I don't have anything against IE8 either - I just like Firefox better.
 
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No offense, and I'll admit I haven't heard about this, but I wouldn't trust Microsoft's promises of a "sandbox" very far at all. Just the fact that even after you "uninstall" IE from Windows 7 the rendering engine still remains and is part of the operating system means that their promise isn't worth much to me.



Which is coming, eventually. :laugh:

No it again, really isn't. And the sandbox mode has been tested to be as efficient to warning a user to a threat as is antispyware, antivirus, rootkit prevention, and general malware infections when used properly with UAC.


Add on software, drive by downloads, popup redirects, infected ads, and scripts are all prevented with common sense and the basic system settings. i also use Avast and block many sites that I have found to be dangerous. I have tried to get infected, and the only way I have found is to visit dangerous sites with my security down, then click on the installers, and allow it to run after UAC asks.
 
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seems more of your byast twards ms and LESS of REALITY of how stupid it is. When u want more options u take 3 seconds and download the one you want. Same as tires rims on a car or anything else. What if they all choose one u dont like??? How will you deal doing the SAME thing as if IE were installed already?!?! Antitrust idea was great WHEN THEY STARTED now its rediculas. You dont care cause its MS. I think supporting the WILD nature of Antitrust on behalf of ms byast is "frankly terrible. Just awful."

Way to make sense.

I have no bias towards MS - it's the only OSs I've ever used.

And like I've said before: we know to go out and download another browser but Joe Public, on the whole, does not.

And again. Different options for wheel rims on cars is not the same as a browser in an operating system. Wheel rims do not do a different function to the car as a whole (they make it look different - it's a cosmetic change but wheels still go round), whereas a browser is a different product, that does a different function.
 
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I absolutely LOL at this. For "experts" like most users here it isnt a problem. We will keystick an install file. But for MOST CONSUMERS this will be shocking. They wont have the faintest clue what to do.

I bet Apple is ROFLCOPTERING at this. It will certainly boost Apple sales in the EU.

Why do you say they won't have the faintest clue what to do? They'll probably just buy a prebuilt machine with Windows 7 on it that comes with an internet browser :confused:

For those that have Vista and try to upgrade, they wouldn't be able to use this version, so again, no issue.

And I believe it will be unlikely that those who cannot figure out how to launch an executable from a DVD or USB stick will go the route of a format/wipe/clean install which would be the only remaining option...?
 
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This is stupid.
 

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But Bill Gates likes cheese burgers. Just like me! Why is the EU picking on him?
 

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Really? I have never said that people are "forced" to use IE and I doubt the EU has either. Don't put words in my mouth. The bundling of IE puts them at an unfair advantage in a completely different market. Internet browsers and operating systems are different products remember.
I don't know about your experiences - but nearly every person that I have advised to use a different browser has either not known that alternatives exist, did not know that they would work on their pc or couldn't be bothered finding it, downloading it and installing it. And that is the reality outside our little bubble. We know better - but the general public does not.

Actually, that is exactly what the EU's case was based on, I suggest you do a little research on the issue. The entire issue behind the EU's complaint was that people are forced to use IE/WMP because it is bundled with Windows.

It isn't Microsoft's fault that people don't educate themselves, and they shouldn't be forced to remove functionality from their products simply because people are uneducated/lazy. People want a product that works from the moment it is installed, you said it yourself, they don't want to be bothered with downloading a seperate browser after installing their OS.

Calculators are a seperate market from OSes too, should Microsoft be forced to strip the calculator from their OS? What about games, should Solitair be stripped because it give them an unfair advantage over regular cards? BiCycle should be all over them about this.:laugh:

If you want to start the argument about how browsers are a different market, so they shouldn't be included in OSes, then you have to apply it to everything included in the OS, and if we do that we would all be back to install an OS that boots to a command line... Would that really help the consumer any?

Look at the time and effort involved in fighting this case against MS. The reality is that it would be impossible to apply this law (basically take someone to court) universally and all at the same time. The EU can only do what they can. Once they've finished with MS (assuming MS were to comply fully), then I'm sure the EU would turn their attention to others - but they can't do it all at once. So they started with the case/company that would have the greatest effect. Just like they did with Intel. Imposing fines on the biggest player or worst offender first will discourage the smaller players from behaving the same. If the smaller fish continue to behave badly as well then they'll be next in line.

I'm sorry newtekie, I would like to see this policed universally too, but the reality is that the resources aren't there to police everything all at once.


EDIT: Just for clarity I don't have anything against IE8 either - I just like Firefox better.

If the policy can't be enforced, it shouldn't be. And there isn't even a hint that the EU is worried about anyone other than Microsoft in this issue. It also isn't difficult to name multiple defendants in a court case, there is no reason that Apple couldn't be included in the original case with minimal effort and resources.

It is the government's job to make policies, and make sure there is enough resources to enforce those policies. If they don't have enough resources to enforce the policies they create, then they have failed as a governing body.

Though that isn't even the case here, the EU has no intention of apply this policy to anyone other than Microsoft.The EU has actually said that because Microsoft is the biggest, this policy will only apply to them, that was again the basis of their complaint to begin with. Sorry, but the policy is purposefully unfair, which my problem with the whole thing. Well that, and the fact that the whole issue of forcing Microsoft to remove bundled applications is completely stupid anyway...
 
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No it again, really isn't. And the sandbox mode has been tested to be as efficient to warning a user to a threat as is antispyware, antivirus, rootkit prevention, and general malware infections when used properly with UAC.


Add on software, drive by downloads, popup redirects, infected ads, and scripts are all prevented with common sense and the basic system settings. i also use Avast and block many sites that I have found to be dangerous. I have tried to get infected, and the only way I have found is to visit dangerous sites with my security down, then click on the installers, and allow it to run after UAC asks.

And there's the problem, right there. :laugh: I hope "common sense" doesn't make up any part of Microsoft's security protection, because it ain't happening.

However, I still stand by what I said earlier. I don't consider anything separated and "sandboxed" if, even after uninstalling, it's still necessary to have in a system.
 

TheMailMan78

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And there's the problem, right there. :laugh: I hope "common sense" doesn't make up any part of Microsoft's security protection, because it ain't happening.
No protection in the world including any government agency is as powerful as good common sense. If we get to the point where we need to rely on the government to install policies that save us from mistakes that could have been avoided with a little common sense humanity is lost.
 
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Put a browser of your choice on a flash drive or other media?

Id rather the US version not have IE7.
 
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It seems even if Microsoft is following the rules, EU still wants their money. It helps their economy of course.
 

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What is stopping OEMs from installing alternative browsers right now? All this will do is make more work for computer companies. Many users don't know what a web browser is and will be completely confused when they don't see the "e" icon.
 
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Pre-built computers will come with Internet Explorer anyways because OEMs can and will install whatever the hell they want. Is that part so hard to understand? Way to overreact.


OH NOES IT'S TEH EVILS EUS!! ALL TEHY WANTS IS THE USSSSS MONEYZS!!11ONEONE



Bunch of hypocrites is what you are. Always whining and bitching and bashing Microsoft left and right and now you're all defending it because the European Union is after them... laughable. Where is all the whining about Microsoft being a monopoly? Uhm? Oh, now they aren't a monopoly? Right...
 
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Proud to be a European! down with M$!
 
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http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/06/12/1457233

"The European Commission will proceed with its antitrust case against Microsoft regardless of Microsoft's decision to strip IE from Windows 7 in Europe. Europe's top antitrust regulator said the EC would draw up a remedy that allows computer users 'genuine consumer choice,' noting that stripping out IE from Windows 'may potentially be positive,' but 'rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.' Jon von Tetzchner, CEO of Opera, whose complaint to the European Commission at the end of 2007 sparked the initial antitrust investigation, said Microsoft is 'trying to set the remedy itself by stripping out IE. ... Now that Microsoft has acknowledged it has been breaking the law by bundling IE into Windows, the Commission must push ahead with an effective remedy,' he said."

Microsoft in deep shit :D
 

TheMailMan78

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http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/06/12/1457233

"The European Commission will proceed with its antitrust case against Microsoft regardless of Microsoft's decision to strip IE from Windows 7 in Europe. Europe's top antitrust regulator said the EC would draw up a remedy that allows computer users 'genuine consumer choice,' noting that stripping out IE from Windows 'may potentially be positive,' but 'rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.' Jon von Tetzchner, CEO of Opera, whose complaint to the European Commission at the end of 2007 sparked the initial antitrust investigation, said Microsoft is 'trying to set the remedy itself by stripping out IE. ... Now that Microsoft has acknowledged it has been breaking the law by bundling IE into Windows, the Commission must push ahead with an effective remedy,' he said."

Microsoft in deep shit :D

So Microsoft folded and is following the "rules" now and the EU is still after them? Greed is all the EU is.
 

DrPepper

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So Microsoft folded and is following the "rules" now and the EU is still after them? Greed is all the EU is.

They can't sue them before win7 is sold in the EU with IE!!! That's like suing someone before they've done something then decided not to because it turns out to be illegal.
 

TheMailMan78

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They can't sue them before win7 is sold in the EU with IE!!! That's like suing someone before they've done something then decided not to because it turns out to be illegal.

Read the post above mine. Screw the EU. Screw them with the power and passion of a thousand camel necks.
 

DrPepper

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Read the post above mine. Screw the EU. Screw them with the power and passion of a thousand camel necks.

I hope this case fails since there isn't much basis for it, since microsoft haven't done anything wrong yet.
 
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