Official AMD Radeon 6000 Series Discussion Thread

[cliffmidnite]

Will the 6k series be able to do triplehead eyefinity without using displayport or display port adapters. lets say, 2 dvi and 1 hdmi for example? Also, am I correct that the 6850/70 will be slower than 5850/70 and that 69xx cards to be release at a later point will be the replacement for the 58xx cards? Thanks.

 

[cadaveca]

Will the 6k series be able to do triplehead eyefinity without using displayport or display port adapters. lets say, 2 dvi and 1 hdmi for example? Also, am I correct that the 6850/70 will be slower than 5850/70 and that 69xx cards to be release at a later point will be the replacement for the 58xx cards? Thanks.

Eyefinity...it seems it might, but that will take soem itme to confirm. Eyefinity isn't exactly something reviewers like to cover at this point, it seems.

The second bit, yes, it does appear that way. But again, without reviews, it's hard to say for sure. But listed pricing does seem to indicate that as well.

 

[Benetanegia]

Thanks for conceding the debate with that ad homeinem. But here is some food for thought. The author things that nv is grasping at straws with that tactic. But I'll leave it at that.

All I see there is the same that can be seen on the slides. AMD pretending that any tesselation that surpasses their cards capabilities is broken. And they are working on a driver level optimization that will most probably reduce the amount of detail.

For that reason, we are working on a driver-based solution in time for the final release of the game that improves performance without sacrificing image quality.

Where did I read that? Ah yes, the 10 bit HDR optimization.

 

[the54thvoid]

Ouchies.

That Hawx Benchie, the GTX 580 release (ahem) and probably more shit slinging to come. Get the handbags ladies, it's time for a bitch fight. East Coast and Cadaveca versus Benetanegia are first up...

It's the TPU Royal Rumble.

 

[cadaveca]

You know what, for an argument, us three have to be some of the best at doing it without taking it personally, or attacking the other side on a personal level, so you'll have to deal with us.



You may not like the bickering, but that's part of a discussion...if everyone agreed, things would REALLY suck.

Just go make some popcorn, and sit back, and enjoy the show.

 

[the54thvoid]

You know what, for an argument, us three have to be some of the best at doing it without taking it personally, or attacking the other sdie on a personal level, so you'll have to deal with us.

I'm from a nasty hard town in Scotland called Glasgow (we're shit at everything except dying from CHD, Cancer and Obesity related shit). But we're tough. I'll have you all!! You aint seen my unitard.

In my tongue, saying "I'll have you!" means "I'll kick your ass big time!". But we also pronounce it, "Ah'll huv you!" usually with a suitable suffix like "ya c**t". Let's all practice Glasgow hardman talk!!.

Anyhow, Cayman will "huv" the GTX 480 and the rest of "youse" can "suk ma baws!"

(note to admins - please dont reprimand me, i'm only playing and i censored my own post!)

(please take this lightly, it's a cultural joke - like being scottish )

 

[EastCoasthandle]

The thing is, that isn't the 1st time we've seen something like this. Take LP2 benchmark for example.

Beginning today, Capcom and NVIDIA have released a preview of Lost Planet 2. Containing both a gameplay test and Direct® X 11 benchmark mode, this application allows gamers to test their PCs to ensure they get the optimum Lost Planet 2 experience.

As you can see, very one sided in development of the benchmark. When someone asked Catalystmaker about it here is what he said. So there is some shenanigans going on. So what's the point of all this? Well, when I see stuff like this I'm not that convinced that nv is in a position to provide a hardware answer for the 6000 series yet.

 

[cliffmidnite]

I hope that is the case. It's not that big of a deal to get a display port to dvi, vga, adapter, but it would definitely be nice to have the ability of 3 display eyefinity right out of the box without having to fork out more money for an extra adapter. I found it quite boring reading about all that tesselation mumbo jumbo too. As someone else noted, I don't think games will utilize it that much in our near future. I don't think game programmers will utilize much of the new tech and maximize the benefits of dx11 till we see a new generation of consoles. Aside from a few recent games, I have been rather disappointed with current titles not really pushing the limits of current hardware. The focus seems to be on consoles and I kind of feel like pc gamers are starting to become a dying breed. I love when new cards and tech come out, I just feel like the game aren't taking advantage of the power available and the consoles are holding us back. Aside from eyefinity, probably only 10% of games really need a $500 gpu.

 

[Benetanegia]

I just found this on TechReport:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntbMUIJGa_0&feature=player_embedded

A little bit better use of tesselation, but not quite yet where I'd like it to be, especially on the stone figures, still a bit lacking. I don't know how that benchmark will run on HD6000 cards, like I said, that remains to be seen, but if that level of tesselation can be done, it should be done. Nvidia can probably do it, just like they can do the one on Heaven XT and Stonegiant, and if AMD cannot do it, they should make it posible, well, because it's posible. Time to catch up.

The rest is only AMD fanboys bitching because they can't have it, just like when AMD fanboys claim that PhysX effects do not make any difference...

 

[CDdude55]

Interesting news from HardOCP:

While we have moved on, the GPU companies have not. Yesterday we got an email from NVIDIA about a new H.A.W.X. 2 benchmark and the company encouraged us to use it on upcoming reviews. Today we got an email from AMD asking us not to use it on upcoming products.

It has come to our attention that you may have received an early build of a benchmark based on the upcoming Ubisoft title H.A.W.X. 2. I'm sure you are fully aware that the timing of this benchmark is not coincidental and is an attempt by our competitor to negatively influence your reviews of the AMD Radeon™ HD 6800 series products. We suggest you do not use this benchmark at present as it has known issues with its implementation of DirectX® 11 tessellation and does not serve as a useful indicator of performance for the AMD Radeon™ HD 6800 series. A quick comparison of the performance data in H.A.W.X. 2, with tessellation on, and that of other games/benchmarks will demonstrate how unrepresentative H.A.W.X. 2 performance is of real world performance.

AMD has demonstrated to Ubisoft tessellation performance improvements that benefit all GPUs, but the developer has chosen not to implement them in the preview benchmark. For that reason, we are working on a driver-based solution in time for the final release of the game that improves performance without sacrificing image quality. In the meantime we recommend you hold off using the benchmark as it will not provide a useful measure of performance relative to other DirectX® 11 games using tessellation.

http://hardocp.com/news/2010/10/20/benchmark_wars

 

[Benetanegia]

The thing is, that isn't the 1st time we've seen something like this. Take LP2 benchmark for example.


As you can see, very one sided in development of the benchmark.

The thing is that it is not the game developer who has to go find AMD, it's AMD who has to contact the developer and ask/give the things they need. We are not talking about an unknown 5 people developer either. Everyone knows that Capcom is goign to be working on something. If the game is realeased and you have nothing is your fault and only yours. The same excuse has been made by AMD so many times it's not even funny. Game performance is absolutely dependant on driver optimizations, so there's absolutely no excuse if you have not optimized for a game, because "uhh they didn't contact me".

 

[the54thvoid]

oops dude, it's been posted a few posts back...

 

[CDdude55]

oops dude, it's been posted a few posts back...

Damn, almost got it here first. lol

 

[EastCoasthandle]

Interesting news from HardOCP:





http://hardocp.com/news/2010/10/20/benchmark_wars

Yeah, I posted that earlier, which is why I said when I see stuff like that nv doesn't have a sufficient hardware answer to AMD's 6000 series. When you read statements like:

...AMD has demonstrated to Ubisoft tessellation performance improvements that benefit all GPUs, but the developer has chosen not to implement them in the preview benchmark. For that reason, we are working on a driver-based solution in time for the final release of the game that improves performance without sacrificing image quality...

It clearly shows the intent of the benchmark. It's also apparent AMD has been in communication with Ubi in an attempt to allow all GPUs benefit from the tessellation. It's good PR for AMD to openly address the issue instead of leaving it one sided.

 

[the54thvoid]

The thing is that it is not the game developer who has to go find AMD, it's AMD who has to contact the developer and ask/give the things they need. We are not talking about an unknown 5 people developer either. Everyone knows that Capcom is goign to be working on something. If the game is realeased and you have nothing is your fault and only yours. The same excuse has been made by AMD so many times it's not even funny. Game performance is absolutely dependant on driver optimizations, so there's absolutely no excuse if you have not optimized for a game, because "uhh they didn't contact me".

Hmm. Analogy. We use a Coca-Cola Scweppes Machine. Contractually we cannot have a Pepsi machine in the building. Perhaps it is also a case of 'NE Company' buys (or bribes) their influence into a preference (TWIMTBP games ot some of ATI's - BFBC2, AvP etc).
I dont think it's just as simple as saying, Capcom are coming, lets optimise. I tink there is also behind the scenes business going on to favour one side (that pays for it)

 

[motasim]

... The rest is only AMD fanboys bitching because they can't have it, just like when AMD fanboys claim that PhysX effects do not make any difference...

Bene, I've been following the ongoing argument since beginning and I couldn't help but notice that although you say you hate fanboys; the obvious truth is that you are actually an nvidia fanboy, come on, admit it!

The undeniable fact is that currently for us gamers AMD has the upper hand in GPU industry, and if you need any proof then just wait for Cayman XT & Cayman Pro to be released next month as they'll rape the GTX 480 and reclaim the single-GPU performance crown.

 

[CDdude55]

The undeniable fact is that currently for us gamers AMD has the upper hand in GPU industry, and if you need any proof then just wait for Cayman XT & Cayman Pro to be released next month as they'll rape the GTX 480 and reclaim the single-GPU performance crown.

It's much to early to tell.

Chances are, it's gonna end up the same way as usual, AMD puts put a great card and owns the market for a good while, then Nvidia brings out something that beats it performance wise and so on.

 

[SNICK]

Wow the more PR slides I see more dissapointed that I am with AMD on this release. First the PR spin of claiming an improvement on perf/die area where it doesn't exist, using HD6870 and HD5850 to fake it out and now these. Despite the improvement on tesselation they cannot compete with Nvidia cards, so they release this BS. Yes AMD, certainly the rasterizer can be a bottleneck that's why Nvidia put 4 of them in Fermi. :shadedshu

But obviously instead of doing something like adding rasterizers or STFU, they have to try to limit the ammount of tesselation in games, so that the weakness of their architecture in regards to tesselation is not exposed. And they are doing it in a pathetic way at that. I mean, ideally you want 16 pixels/polygon? What garbage is that?

Let's see:

1920 x 1200 = 2304000 pixel -> 2304000 pixel / 16 pixel/poly = 144000 poly
1680 x 1050 = 1764000 pixel -> 1764000/16 = 110250 poly

110k-144k polygons? That's the limit they are suggesting?

Nearly all modern games already use 500k - 1 million polys, without ANY tesselation. :shadedshu

Crysis has around 1-2 million. Nanosuit model alone is 60k poly.
GOW2 and ME2 characters are 15k-30k each...

Even moving to the "innefficient" 1 pixel/poly we are talking about 1.76-2.3 million polys, so AMD is saying that games using tesselation shouldn't really surpass the polycount of 3+ years old games. Wonderful AMD, you know what? Nvidia did envision that bottleneck and did something to fix it on their architecture, so either do something or STFU.

Smart tesselation rather than nvidia's brite force tesselation
If Smart comes with considerable power savings, while keeping image differences indistinguishable, then I’m ok with it.

Let’s see what dx11 benchmark will say about this.

 

[Benetanegia]

Bene, I've been following the ongoing argument since beginning and I couldn't help but notice that although you say you hate fanboys; the obvious truth is that you are actually an nvidia fanboy, come on, admit it!

In a forum dominated by AMD fanboys? Sure, someone has to address the AMD fanboyism before it scalates. The only truth is that on this thread and forums I'm one of the very few that is objective.

Rebranding is evil and deceptive if Nvidia does it with a 8800 GS that suddenly becomes 9600 GS, but AMD rebranding HD5770 to HD6770 or releasing a HD6800 that is slower than HD5800 is not only justifiable and makes all the sense, it's smart.

Tesselation was the second Godsend when only AMD had it and when it was rumored that Fermi would suck on tesselation, because it was software based. Come Fermi and tesselation is "not really needed", "overkill", bla bla.

Can someone here that is informed and savyy say with a straight face that AMD is not trying to deceive customers, with the rebrand and with the false "performance per die area improvement" claim?

 

[erocker]

Can someone here that is informed and savyy say with a straight face that AMD is not trying to deceive customers, with the rebrand and with the false "performance per die area improvement" claim?

Without things like benchmarks and hard proof of end results everyone is just talking out of their a$$ anyways. My 2 cents. Other than that, I'm staying out of this conversation since I'm really not interested in mid-range cards at this time.

 

[DanTheMan]

I believe that everyone's situation is different. Most folks stay one sided on brands (AMD/Nvidia). However; instead of guessing/rumors/insults folks just need to sit back and wait for their release and monitor all benchmarks. What's important to you and your needs may not be appropriate for someone else, so I prefer that no one "speaks for me". When it's time to upgrade to the new GPU - pick what's best for your situation and be happy - enough said!

 

[cadaveca]

But Dan, then I'd be having nothing to do all day long!

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

sense put into words id also like to say to bene that on a forum called tech power up nobody should EVER say permformance these days is enough cos how much is enough i aint seen enough of anything including high fidelity 3d games.
There all mostly pants, i mean theyre gettin better but WTF i played the new MOH other night and the puddles were effin solid and thats cutting edge frosbite action lol
Finally can we quit now with the 6850-6870 shit and start talking about something that actually matters to an Enthusiast ie 6970-6990 im not building no new HPC this year so WTF is all this mid range waffle

 

[mastrdrver]

The woes of unemployment...once something new comes up we can only *sigh* and dream about the one day we can actually afford something.

Sorry I meant that I was joining in with you on taking a pass this generation. I'm not currently unemployed but school bills are doing a good job of eating up just about all I have.

I'll keep you in my prayers.

To regards to 6850s.....
Amazon has the 6850 listed with specs.

 

[CDdude55]

I believe that everyone's situation is different. Most folks stay one sided on brands (AMD/Nvidia). However; instead of guessing/rumors/insults folks just need to sit back and wait for their release and monitor all benchmarks. What's important to you and your needs may not be appropriate for someone else, so I prefer that no one "speaks for me". When it's time to upgrade to the new GPU - pick what's best for your situation and be happy - enough said!

I agree.

Though of course rumors and speculation as well as insults will never cease. As long as there are new products coming out, people will always take early judgment for flame others for what ever product is being talked about. And we definitely need to just wait and see to decided if an upgrade is right for us and whether this cards deliver anything

Most folks stay one sided on brands (AMD/Nvidia)

Not me, as i have said before, they are just names of companies that don't give a shit about me besides how much green paper i have in my pocket.(and to fight for that paper they need to bring out some awesome stuff, regardless of name)