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PSU Guide

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Wile E

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Explained is why all telco switching stations locate protectors as close as possible to earth ground. And why a protector is located as much as 50 meters away from electronics. Telco routinely do this because 100 years of knowledge demonstrates what is necessary for surge protection.

A 1994 IEEE paper also describes what happens. Dr Martzloff's very first conclusion describes how plug-in (point of connection) devices are harmful:
> Conclusion:
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in
> reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present
> at the point of connection of appliances.

Long before Dr Martzloff's paper, we saw same. Two plug-in protectors connected the surge destrctively into two powered off computer motherboards. Incoming on AC mains. Through protectors (bypassing protection in each power supply). Outgoing via NICs. Through the network. Into a third powered off computer. Out to earth ground destructively via modem and the telephone line. Three times explained is why adjacent protectors are not used and can contribute to appliance damage.

Meanwhile, dimmers were using semiconductors (thyristors) since the 1960s. If hourly or daily surges are destroying electronics, then you are replacing dimmer switches daily. Those mytical surges do not exist despite a majority who believe otherwise. Why are you not replacing dimmer switches and clock radios? Because all electronics already contain protection that plug-in devices are supposed to provide. Some of the more robust protection must already exist in a power supply. But selling a supply that is missing these functions (and still boots the computer) means higher profits even at a lower retail price

Informed consumers worry about the rare and destructive transient that occurs typically once every seven years. A UPS does not even claim to protect from. That number can vary significantly even in the same town. Therefore informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance. That makes even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. That means everything is protected including furnace, refirgerator, and bathroom GFCIs. Which device most needs protection is a surge exists? Smoke detectors (or fire alarms). None must fail during a surge. The single effective solution also makes lesser transients irrelevant.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. If permitted inside the building, then it will hunt for earth destructively via some appliance. The informed consumer earthing one 'whole house' protector so that energy is not inside the building.

US Air Force defines where protectors are best located. Not plug-in protectors. The US Air Force says:
> 15. Surge Protection.
> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection, communication antenna, and instrumentation
> lines must have surge protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages to a harmless
> level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the conductor enters the interior of
> the facility. Devices commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube arresters,
> and transzorbs.

Effective protection means energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Means protection already inside every minimally acceptable supply is not overwhelmed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Therefore the effective protector is located typically 'less than 10 feet' to single point earth ground. And may cost tens or 100 times less money.
You still haven't shown us why surge protectors and UPSs are bad, only that they can be ineffective, and you still haven't shown any evidence, only more theory. How did they prove the plug in protector bypassed the psu's internal protections? How do we know that the psu's internal protections weren't already faulty? What you are saying, while it could be 100% true, goes against the common knowledge of the masses. You need to provide more evidence to convince people of something that goes against what they were taught to believe for most of their lives. What the telcos do isn't proof.

And again, I already said I never claimed surges are a daily occurrence, so you can drop the "mythical surges" routine, it's not winning you over any supporters either.

Oh, and fyi, that dimmer I referred to earlier? From the 50's. It was in my grandmother's home. It is older than my mother, and she was born in '58.
 
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Oh, and fyi, that dimmer I referred to earlier? From the 50's. It was in my grandmother's home. It is older than my mother, and she was born in '58.
So you know virtually nothing about electricity. Ignorant even of a simplest device - dimmer switch. Then why are you making recommendations? Why are you so intentionally deceiving others with outright lies? Why are you being so dishonest?

Protectors adjacent to appliances can even make appliance damage easier. Telcos all over the world want protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics - because they employ people with electrical knowledge. And for other reasons already posted. Even wire impedance makes that obvious. I am not going to teach basic electricity. You were expected to learn that before posting even one recommendation. Instead your posts include veiled insults.

You should be apologizing for intentionally posting numerous myths. For making claims only because those lies are popular. Obscene myths such as mains fluctuations will destroy power supplies. Such as that mythical excessive amperage. Such as complete nonsense that a fuse is a surge protection device. Such as supplies can be damaged if you do not put a load on the 3.3V and 5V rails. Such as a 1kw supply recommendation for future loads. Such as low AC voltage can cause power supply damage. Such as a shorted power supply turns off. All these were posted based in lies and hearsay. Myths that confuse laymen and promote scams. And that insult anyone who worked so hard to learn before posting.

"No power supply must damage any motherboard or other components." You even denied that reality.

Another myth: "A simple, and cheap surge protector protects you from spikes in voltage." Good. Post those manufacturer numeric specs that prove your claim. You posted that and did not first read the spec numbers? Why? Oh. I believe I already answered why.

Then you posted another lie. "A surge protector is a smart investment. It's just another line of defense." No it is not. How does it absorb a surge (hundreds of thousands of joules) when only rated at hundreds of joules? The word 'scam' applies. It does not even claim to provide that protection in numbers. What its 'hundreds of joules' might do is already made irrelevant by a computer's power supply.

The well proven and effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance.

PSU must be designed to make power fluctuations irrelevant - posted elsewhere with the numbers. Computer (PSUs) are some of the most robust appliances in the building - posted previously with numbers. PSU must not cause motherboard or other computer damage - as was required long before PCs even existed. A typical UPS connects appliances directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode - no power conditioning exists except in subjective speculation. Anything that a UPS might do for transients is already done better in the supply - which is why 270 volt spikes from a UPS are irrelevant to120 volt computers.

Provided was how to identify inferior power supplies even with an AM (longwave) radio. Because too many computer assemblers have little electrical knowledge; install supplies only on irrelevant numbers such as dollars and watts.

So that protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed, an informed consumer installs a 'whole house' protector. Protection already in a power supply is sufficient with one protector distant from appliances and as close to earth as practical. That was how it was done generations before computers even existed. And completely unknown to many who would post myths without first learning how electricity works.
 

Wile E

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I'm not intentionally deceiving people with outright lies, but you seem to be intentionally avoiding posting your evidence that I am wrong.

As far as "No power supply must damage any motherboard or other components.", good ones don't. Generic ones are questionable in their ability to do so, and that has been proven. A faulty power supply has damaged computer components on numerous occasions, and been documented. Just because a psu's specs call for the safeguards, doesn't mean they actually follow specs in the case of cheap power supplies, or that the protection isn't faulty.

Again, you still haven't posted anything in the way of proof. Until then, you are doing nothing more than trying to flaunt that you have more electrical knowledge than me. Whoopty do. :rolleyes: I never said you didn't, but I still want to see proof that surge protectors and UPS do damage. Your "you know virtually nothing about electricity" defense isn't holding much water without it.

PS: That dimmer switch in question IS a simple rheostat, thus the reason I thought it the norm. So, if you want to keep focusing on my stupid mistake, that's fine, but it's not winning you any arguments either.
 

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Let me say this, we all agree to disagree;)

Next topic on PSU's please:D
 
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Well, it still is very much helpful , i bouthgt 2 PCs using this help , and im buying another lower end PC for the family in the next weeks , so , PSUs are very important and are a piece you always want to buy as best , doesn't get so outdated and provides room for the usual upgrades that do need to get outdated faster.

Personally i choosed Enermax for my High end machine , i am extremely pleased , it's better than the Corsair , Enermax has an undocumented(i didn't heard of it nor seen it) that pervents the startup of the PC if the PSU isn't ready up charged yet. Plus , it flushes all electricity out when you shut down the pc and plug out , the corsair HX series has some electricity left which if you turn it on it flashes a bit , leds and fans make a momentairly spin then fade out.

Ofcourse i have enermax series from 2008 , how much is it better now! i wonder
 
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Well yeah i see , the guys that made the thread isn't updating .... LIKE 3 YEARS :wtf:

... okay , who's gonna make a new one , and some real effort.

There should be a thread for random people to say if they have the PSU the OP will ask , so , one guy wouldn't be able to review like 50 PSUs unless you work in the industry.
 

panchoman

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Well yeah i see , the guys that made the thread isn't updating .... LIKE 3 YEARS :wtf:

... okay , who's gonna make a new one , and some real effort.

There should be a thread for random people to say if they have the PSU the OP will ask , so , one guy wouldn't be able to review like 50 PSUs unless you work in the industry.

you're right....

this thread is long overdue for a refresh.. i've just got so much else going on in my life =/
if anyone else would like to help out, PLEASE, let me know...
 
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you're right....

this thread is long overdue for a refresh.. i've just got so much else going on in my life =/
if anyone else would like to help out, PLEASE, let me know...

Naturally , the question is should we upgrade on this one or make a whole new revamp ?

And that was fast , that was a fast reply , that's somewhat weird , like you heard my arrival from the stars , anyways i thought the OP wasn't here anymore so , that's cool , now it's better to upgrade on this thread , but someone else's going to do the work , Wile E ? Hmm ?
 

panchoman

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Naturally , the question is should we upgrade on this one or make a whole new revamp ?

And that was fast , that was a fast reply , that's somewhat weird , like you heard my arrival from the stars , anyways i thought the OP wasn't here anymore so , that's cool , now it's better to upgrade on this thread , but someone else's going to do the work , Wile E ? Hmm ?

i just happend to be on tpu... i disappeared for like a year.. but i've been coming back more and more now, as my life clears up a bit :)

one of the things i've been thinking off is to move the brand/oem listings over to the tpu wiki, where it can be updated by all members and better maintained... and then upgrade and expand on the text to make this a complete go to guide..

what do you think?
 

cdawall

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i thought i updated one of these lists...if you can find mine somewhere i have a bunch of new brands on it...

edit found it

PSU buyers guide
 

panchoman

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i thought i updated one of these lists...if you can find mine somewhere i have a bunch of new brands on it...

edit found it

PSU buyers guide

oh thats awesome.. would you like me to merge everything, and make you co-author? :toast:
 

cdawall

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oh thats awesome.. would you like me to merge everything, and make you co-author? :toast:

works for me i still need to do some updating on it i will shoot you a pm eventually with new info in it
 

panchoman

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works for me i still need to do some updating on it i will shoot you a pm eventually with new info in it

awesome, just awesome. untill then, i'll be working more on the textual part of things..

thanks again man! :toast:
 
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Be sure to note about Corsair PSUs , it's no longer a quality brand for some PSUs , as it uses a bad OEM , the low end line probably was replaced with another OEM.
 

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Be sure to note about Corsair PSUs , it's no longer a quality brand for some PSUs , as it uses a bad OEM , the low end line probably was replaced with another OEM.

You mean the Builder series? JonnyGURU revied the 430W one and he recommended it.
 

MohawkAngel

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When I bought a CoolerMaster Elite 360 case i got a 350w psu in it. Just replaced it with my modded one but tested this little sucker and here's the stock specs.

Coolermaster OEM TM-350-PSMR

3.3V=14A
5V=14A
12V=10A
-5V=0.5A
-12V=0.5A
-5Vsb=2A
Max. Output 350W

With a digital multimeter of 20 amps maximum i was able to calculate the this psu can in fact get for 1 min a charge of 19.6 amps on the +5V line. Ok the thinny wires were getting hot but I'M pretty sure if they had put bigger wires in it then it could have been able to push more power.

Just a test I made but i'm sure if some of you got this little one in your CM case then you could use it without problems now. Not bad for a 9.99$ psu sold brand new.

EDIT: This test was made by sucking the 19.6 amps on a single red wires from a molex plug.
 
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You mean the Builder series? JonnyGURU revied the 430W one and he recommended it.
You're referring to the CX series. I think RuskiSnajper is referring to the GS series. Haven't seen any review on those. Of course, for a little more there's always the VX and TX series.
 

panchoman

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Audio Device(s) Onboard- Why get an sound card when you can hum??
Power Supply Antec NeoHe 550-manufactured by seasonic -replacement to the discontinued smart power series
Software Windows XP pro SP2 -- vista is still crap
Be sure to note about Corsair PSUs , it's no longer a quality brand for some PSUs , as it uses a bad OEM , the low end line probably was replaced with another OEM.

When I bought a CoolerMaster Elite 360 case i got a 350w psu in it. Just replaced it with my modded one but tested this little sucker and here's the stock specs.

Coolermaster OEM TM-350-PSMR

3.3V=14A
5V=14A
12V=10A
-5V=0.5A
-12V=0.5A
-5Vsb=2A
Max. Output 350W

With a digital multimeter of 20 amps maximum i was able to calculate the this psu can in fact get for 1 min a charge of 19.6 amps on the +5V line. Ok the thinny wires were getting hot but I'M pretty sure if they had put bigger wires in it then it could have been able to push more power.

Just a test I made but i'm sure if some of you got this little one in your CM case then you could use it without problems now. Not bad for a 9.99$ psu sold brand new.

EDIT: This test was made by sucking the 19.6 amps on a single red wires from a molex plug.


To both of you guys, do you know who the OEM is? if you've got a pic of the psu (or the psu), there is a UL code on the sticker, under a backwards R with a u (see the first post).. i can use that UL code to identify who the manufacturer is...

i've been hearing a lot about these new corsair psu's, i need to dig some more on this..
 

panchoman

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When I bought a CoolerMaster Elite 360 case i got a 350w psu in it. Just replaced it with my modded one but tested this little sucker and here's the stock specs.

Coolermaster OEM TM-350-PSMR

3.3V=14A
5V=14A
12V=10A
-5V=0.5A
-12V=0.5A
-5Vsb=2A
Max. Output 350W

With a digital multimeter of 20 amps maximum i was able to calculate the this psu can in fact get for 1 min a charge of 19.6 amps on the +5V line. Ok the thinny wires were getting hot but I'M pretty sure if they had put bigger wires in it then it could have been able to push more power.

Just a test I made but i'm sure if some of you got this little one in your CM case then you could use it without problems now. Not bad for a 9.99$ psu sold brand new.

EDIT: This test was made by sucking the 19.6 amps on a single red wires from a molex plug.

just a quick question.. is it max output 250 w or 350w? the specs only get you 254.7 W ...
 

MohawkAngel

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To both of you guys, do you know who the OEM is? if you've got a pic of the psu (or the psu), there is a UL code on the sticker, under a backwards R with a u (see the first post).. i can use that UL code to identify who the manufacturer is...

i've been hearing a lot about these new corsair psu's, i need to dig some more on this..

Not even a UL code on it man! It's brand new and tried to see also inside by opening it but nothing much about them. Seriouly its written something like Authorized by Cooler Master. So i suppose its their Taiwan branch who are making it. For higher grade psu of Cooler master even for cheaper eXtreme Power plus 500W its Seventeam who are making them.

EDIT: Made a mistake in model name its TM-350-PMSR

 
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panchoman

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Power Supply Antec NeoHe 550-manufactured by seasonic -replacement to the discontinued smart power series
Software Windows XP pro SP2 -- vista is still crap
Not even a UL code on it man! It's brand new and tried to see also inside by opening it but nothing much about them. Seriouly its written something like Authorized by Cooler Master. So i suppose its their Taiwan branch who are making it. For higher grade psu of Cooler master even for cheaper eXtreme Power plus 500W its Seventeam who are making them.

My guess it's probably hipro or acbel making it, as they make their other shitty lower power ones, and yeah seventeam makes their higher wattage ones..

i just went on newegg and found that psu, can't seem to find the ul either, which i find to be rather shocking.. either they neglected to put the cert on the psu, which most companies don't, or it's not certified.. which is rather troubling.. cooler master also doesn't retail these units, so it seems like they are literally slipping pieces of shit not worth anything into their cases to make them seem better.. also the psu label is troubling.. the psu doesn't have any pfc, and the label only indicates the psu is capable of 250w... the 350w number they are using is the MAXIMUM the psu can support... meaning if you push 350w through the psu.. it will die.. something you self-confirmed really, with the multimeter testing and seeing that the wires cannot support more than the amps on the label, and the amps on the label only allow up to 254 watts..

isn't it interesting how cooler master didn't even put their name on the psu?
 

MohawkAngel

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MAX output 350watts. It is written +12v @ +10amps So from what I've read on another place this psu is able to go over the 10amps barrier thats why it gives only 254.7w without counting the extra play over the 10amps. Al;so yes it was over the barrier because on the label its written 14amps on +5v but i went at 19.6amps on the 5v. Of course the wire wont withstand the 19.6amps because normally you share the amps between many wires and I sucked all the 19.6amps on a small gauge wire made for the 14 amps.
 

panchoman

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Cooling Thermaltake Blue Orb-- bunch of other fans here and there....
Memory 2 gigs (2x1gb) of patriot ddr2 800 @ 4-4-4-12-2t
Video Card(s) Sapphire X1950pro Pci-E x16 @stock@stock on stock
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Display(s) ANCIENT 15" sony lcd, bought it when it was like 500 bucks
Case Apevia X-plorer blue/black
Audio Device(s) Onboard- Why get an sound card when you can hum??
Power Supply Antec NeoHe 550-manufactured by seasonic -replacement to the discontinued smart power series
Software Windows XP pro SP2 -- vista is still crap
Not even a UL code on it man! It's brand new and tried to see also inside by opening it but nothing much about them. Seriouly its written something like Authorized by Cooler Master. So i suppose its their Taiwan branch who are making it. For higher grade psu of Cooler master even for cheaper eXtreme Power plus 500W its Seventeam who are making them.

EDIT: Made a mistake in model name its TM-350-PMSR

http://clearancezone.directron.us/images/item_images/1249681256KJNocTbqY5XK.jpg

MAX output 350watts. It is written +12v @ +10amps So from what I've read on another place this psu is able to go over the 10amps barrier thats why it gives only 254.7w without counting the extra play over the 10amps. Al;so yes it was over the barrier because on the label its written 14amps on +5v but i went at 19.6amps on the 5v. Of course the wire wont withstand the 19.6amps because normally you share the amps between many wires and I sucked all the 19.6amps on a small gauge wire made for the 14 amps.

but you're contradicting yourself aren't you. you're saying that the psu can go over, but the wires can't handle them , then whats the point? also, if you're marketing a psu, and it can perform better, than wouldn't you put that? i bet if you had the 12v and 5v under load, you would have some more concrete results.. interested in seeing what you get..
 

MohawkAngel

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What you dont seems to know is that the amperage is divided between wires not passing all in the same. If your system suck all the wattage of the 12v for example it will never suck it on one single wire but in all the yellow wires thats why the wires stand the current. Just take the exemple of a video card with 8 pins connectors...maybe 100watts ok but splitted in many wires if you pass all the amps in one single wire it would take you automotive grade wires in the psu and it means big wirres too big for a computer.

When i tested it on a single wire it went over but the wire became so hot that the plastic around was melting almost and smell burning. If i did the same test on more wires then of course the wires would be able to withstand the 19.6 amps without overheating
 

panchoman

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Processor Amd Athlon X2 4600+ Windsor(90nm) EE(65W) @2.9-3.0 @1.45
Motherboard Biostar Tforce [Nvidia] 550
Cooling Thermaltake Blue Orb-- bunch of other fans here and there....
Memory 2 gigs (2x1gb) of patriot ddr2 800 @ 4-4-4-12-2t
Video Card(s) Sapphire X1950pro Pci-E x16 @stock@stock on stock
Storage Seagate 7200.11 250gb Drive, WD raptors (30/40) in Raid 0
Display(s) ANCIENT 15" sony lcd, bought it when it was like 500 bucks
Case Apevia X-plorer blue/black
Audio Device(s) Onboard- Why get an sound card when you can hum??
Power Supply Antec NeoHe 550-manufactured by seasonic -replacement to the discontinued smart power series
Software Windows XP pro SP2 -- vista is still crap
What you dont seems to know is that the amperage is divided between wires not passing all in the same. If your system suck all the wattage of the 12v for example it will never suck it on one single wire but in all the yellow wires thats why the wires stand the current. Just take the exemple of a video card with 8 pins connectors...maybe 100watts ok but splitted in many wires if you pass all the amps in one single wire it would take you automotive grade wires in the psu and it means big wirres too big for a computer.

When i tested it on a single wire it went over but the wire became so hot that the plastic around was melting almost and smell burning. If i did the same test on more wires then of course the wires would be able to withstand the 19.6 amps without overheating

true true..forgot that you only tested on a single wire...
 
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