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The lunatics wanna run the asylum

qubit

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For amateur theorists, mainstream science is an exclusive priesthood – like Martin Luther, they want to make their own connections

IN OCTOBER 1991, astrophysicists observed something incredible in the skies above Dugway Proving Ground, a former weapons-testing facility in a remote corner of Utah. It was a cosmic ray with an enormous amount of energy - equivalent to the kinetic energy of a baseball travelling at 100 kilometres per hour, but compressed into a subatomic particle. It came to be known as the oh-my-god-particle, and though similar events have been recorded at least 15 times since, mainstream physicists remain baffled by them.

To Jim Carter, a trailer-park owner in Enumclaw, Washington, ultra-high-energy cosmic rays pose no problem. They offer proof of a radical theory of the universe he has been developing for 50 years.

In Carter's theory, these rays are photons left over from the earliest stage of cosmic evolution. He calls them "apocalyptic photons" and believes that one of them was responsible for the Tunguska eventMovie Camera in 1908, in which a mysterious something from outer space flattened 2100 square kilometres of Siberian forest.

Carter's ideas are not taken seriously by the physics mainstream. He does not have a PhD and has never had any of his work published in a scientific journal. He has just a single semester of university education, which was enough to convince him that what was being taught in physics departments was an offence to common sense.

In response, Carter went off and developed his own ideas. Five decades on he has his very own theory of everything, an idiosyncratic alternative to quantum mechanics and general relativity, based on the idea that all matter is composed of doughnut-shaped particles called circlons. Since the 1970s he has articulated his ideas in a series of self-published books, including his magnum opus, The Other Theory of Physics.

For the past 18 years I have been collecting the works of what I have come to call "outsider physicists". I now have more than 100 such theories on my shelves. Most of them are single papers, but a number are fully fledged books, often filled with equations and technical diagrams (though I do have one that is couched as a series of poems and another that is written as a fairy tale). Carter's is by far the most elaborate work I have encountered.

The mainstream science world has a way of dealing with people like this - dismiss them as cranks and dump their letters in the bin. While I do not believe any outsider I have encountered has done any work that challenges mainstream physics, I have come to believe that they should not be so summarily ignored.

Let's hope these cranks never get into power. :rolleyes:

This is an interesting article and I recommend reading the rest of it.

Outsider physicists and the oh-my-god particle - New Scientist
 
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im the type of person to give everything the benefit of the doubt with a open mind, something is right until proven wrong. and that something right then proves the other right wrong is right until proven wrong essentially, so whos to say anyone is right of now and this guy is wrong. just ideas to think aboiut
 

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Sometimes I agree with the statement that scientists is a priesthood, at least in the western world.
 
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If their theories can be proven then I'm all for it.

I hate that you need to be qualified to do anything in current society.

Back in the day if you were good at something or right that would be enough.



The amount of times science has been held back by people debunking people just because it isn't a mainstream idea ( and they are later proven to be correct).

Not saying this guy is right but it pisses me off that people disregard new ideas.
 
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i agree with panther i get in this argument with college students all the time, dont get me wrong nothing wrong with a education but when it comes down to it if im a F$*(ing genius at something but dont have schooling thell look at me and be like MEH!, then comes this igit then did 2 yrs of college doesnt need to know 5% of what i do and hell get the job,its bullshit that someone has to go to school for someone else to tell them that they know something with a peice of paper.

i wanted to also add on panthers statement, watch everything we beleive today, be wrong in 70 yrs.....
 

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If they're theories can be proven then I'm all for it.

I hate that you need to be qualified to do anything in current society.

Back in the day if you were good at something or right that would be enough.



The amount of times science has been held back by people debunking people just because it isn't a mainstream idea ( and they are later proven to be correct).

Not saying this guy is right but it pisses me off that people disregard new ideas.

I can see where you're coming from, but there's thousands of obviously crackpot ideas out there that can and should be dismissed out of hand - and this lot fits into that category. Think how many times you yourself dismiss ideas out of hand in real life, because they can immediately be seen to be wrong. Of course, lost in amongst all this noise, are the genuine new and groundbreaking ideas, but because of the noise, it's hard to be heard above it.

Also, it may be frustrating to need qualifications, but they're there for a reason: most of the "simple" scientific research that can be figured out with a few simple tool has been done. We're so advanced now, that the cutting edge is at the level of theoretical physics, including quantum mechanics. To be able to work in these fields, the full complexity of the subject, especially understanding its maths, is a prerequisit for being able to work within it at all. It looks to me like they're just whining because they don't have the brains to achieve the standard required. This snippet sums it up nicely:
They are unanimous in the view that mainstream physics has been hijacked by a kind of priestly caste who speak a secret language - in other words, mathematics - that is incomprehensible to most human beings.
So, because they don't understand the subject, that invalidates it? Really? They then go on to compound it by saying:
They claim that the natural world speaks a language which all of us can, or should be able to, understand. Rather than having their dialogue with the world mediated by "experts", NPA members insist that they can commune with it directly and describe its patterns in accessible terms.
What a load of tosh! :laugh: Where's their scientific basis for saying that complexities of these subjects should be easily understandable by the common man? They don't have one. If any of those theories had any credibility, then they would be seized upon by mainstream scientists, hungry for more knowledge.
 
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i agree you don't have to go to school to learn these things, but i agree with qubit for sure that at the level we are at, you need an advanced understanding of science and especially mathematics to really contribute anything. for 90% of people that means school. very few people who think they are genius enough to learn advanced science on their own actually are.

not saying it can't happen - a relative layman could simply have a POV that others fail to see. but the chances of that are slim. for any considerable, long-term progress those technical requirements really need to be met.

and not everything deserves the benefit of the doubt.
 
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and old saying someone once told me....when reason fails to exsplain go back to what is safe
 

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Also, consider that there could be things out there that may be inherently incomprehensible to us in the same way that your pet dog has no concept of what technology is, or gravity, or the stock exchange, for example.

Therefore to claim that everything should be comprehensible to everyone is ignorant in the extreme and is more or less on the same level as religion. Yeah, dismiss it out of hand.
 
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This is acceptable to the concept of science. Doesnt matter who he is or what he believes, if his theory turns out to be correct he will be a genius.

What is the article trying to prove saying "he is a trailer park house owner" ? poor doesn't equal stupid.
 
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This is acceptable to the concept of science. Doesnt matter who he is or what he believes, if his theory turns out to be correct he will be a genius.
of course, that's why i love science. but as i said, the chances of a layman making an actual discovery or even any contribution at all is pretty small. and that's not the point anyway, just because the chances are small doesn't mean it's not worth striving for.

the point was:
if his theory turns out to be correct he will be a genius.

he admittedly doesn't have an understanding of the mathematics involved. it is not that scientists use math to fool laymen, or confuse us - it's that math is the only way to accurately model and understand these concepts.
even if he has a GREAT theory, if he doesn't understand, know or can't explain the math behind it, he hasn't really done all that much. at the very least, you need someone WITH math skills to translate their theory, and so he can't actually be correct because he can't explain what his theory means the way every other physics theory is explained:with math. that doesn't sound like a genius to me.
 
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of course, that's why i love science. but as i said, the chances of a layman making an actual discovery or even any contribution at all is pretty small. and that's not the point anyway, just because the chances are small doesn't mean it's not worth striving for.

the point was:


he admittedly doesn't have an understanding of the mathematics involved. it is not that scientists use math to fool laymen, or confuse us - it's that math is the only way to accurately model and understand these concepts.
even if he has a GREAT theory, if he doesn't understand, know or can't explain the math behind it, he hasn't really done all that much. at the very least, you need someone WITH math skills to translate their theory, and so he can't actually be correct because he can't explain what his theory means the way every other physics theory is explained:with math. that doesn't sound like a genius to me.

you do have a solid point here, but math is a language made up just to beable to speak and transfer ideas from one person to another with understanding, lets say this man has his own language that he puts his ideas on, he isnt wrong just cause it isnt universal.
 
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I can see where you're coming from, but there's thousands of obviously crackpot ideas out there that can and should be dismissed out of hand - and this lot fits into that category. Think how many times you yourself dismiss ideas out of hand in real life, because they can immediately be seen to be wrong. Of course, lost in amongst all this noise, are the genuine new and groundbreaking ideas, but because of the noise, it's hard to be heard above it.

Also, it may be frustrating to need qualifications, but they're there for a reason: most of the "simple" scientific research that can be figured out with a few simple tool has been done. We're so advanced now, that the cutting edge is at the level of theoretical physics, including quantum mechanics. To be able to work in these fields, the full complexity of the subject, especially understanding its maths, is a prerequisit for being able to work within it at all. It looks to me like they're just whining because they don't have the brains to achieve the standard required. This snippet sums it up nicely:
So, because they don't understand the subject, that invalidates it? Really? They then go on to compound it by saying:What a load of tosh! :laugh: Where's their scientific basis for saying that complexities of these subjects should be easily understandable by the common man? They don't have one. If any of those theories had any credibility, then they would be seized upon by mainstream scientists, hungry for more knowledge.


Like I said, I didn't say this man was anything close to right, I was simply saying disregarding someone because they are not classically trained is the ultimate fail.

I was merely saying if the theory is sound then people should consider it.

Hell even people who ARE trained get debunked all the time ( Nikola Tesla being an obvious example) people thought his idea of wireless electricity was bat shit bananas, and yet it is something that people are developing now (using inductive coupling)

I know it's not quite the same as a unified theory of physics but it's just one example of the top of my head.


Note : I am aware that some of Tesla's ideas were legitimately crazy.
 

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Like I said, I didn't say this man was anything close to right, I was simply saying disregarding someone because they are not classically trained is the ultimate fail.

I was merely saying if the theory is sound then people should consider it.

Hell even people who ARE trained get debunked all the time ( Nikola Tesla being an obvious example) people thought his idea of wireless electricity was bat shit bananas, and yet it is something that people are developing now (using inductive coupling)

I know it's not quite the same as a unified theory of physics but it's just one example of the top of my head.

Yes, you make a sound argument, my friend. :toast: I think we're basically in agreement here. Indeed a worthy idea doesn't have to come from someone with a PHD in quantum physics and I'm sure that if the idea is sound, it will be considered (again, all the noise from the bat shit crazy ones notwithstanding). An idea worth its salt will have the ring of truth to it and will therefore get picked up.

Of course, just to muddy the water here, all this advanced research requires big money to do, so an upstart who upsets the applecart can get thrown out just because they don't bring in the dollars, regardless of how sound their new idea is. :shadedshu

Of course, this isn't science at work, but politics, which corrupts the scientific method and makes a travesty of science as a whole. I f* hate politics because if the way it tends to corrupt everything in the interests of someones fat profits. :mad:
 
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he isnt wrong just cause it isnt universal.

right but how can we know if he is correct if he can't explain it in a language everyone else could at least possibly understand? so instead of math we would have another language created by this guy that accomplishes the same thing. that just doesn't make sense.

i do get what you're saying, believe me. i am the last person to put a premium on standardized education. it's a failure tbh - but there is something to be said for standards. for ways of doing things that everyone can use.

a scientist in Bangladesh and one in Singapore can cooperate with a third in america, and get accurate results - because they speak the same language. that part is important, and math is established, varied, and wonderful. just because he doesn't want to make the effort to understand it, and instead would rather just make his own (hypothetically) doesn't lend any credence to them being a genius of any kind.

if math were simply not enough, and he were a genius, he would create new maths like newton with calculus. not make an entirely different language. imo of course ;)
 

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because they speak the same language

actually they all speak english too :)

left over from the earliest stage of cosmic evolution

the universe was a plasma until about 300k years into its existance. think: plasma = hot gas like the sun

a plasma is opaque to radiation (not transparent), so photons (= radiation) can not freely travel through it.

at 300k years the temperature was 3000 kelvin (above which it would be a plasma)

now the light of this 3000 kelvin surface can travel the universe freely, but the universe is expanding, so the light waves of the photons get expanded with it (red shift)

today we see these photons as the cosmic microwave background radiation that is coming from all sides. wavelength is 1 mm (microwave)

all this is pretty well understood and verified by countless experiments

so no, this radiation he speaks of can not be that old becuase it would have been red shifted too much. there are plenty of other sources for high energy particles though
 
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Interestingly you don't need math for the formation of many of the more out there theories we have today trying to describe fundamental features of existence. You just need math to find out if it really works. I'd imagine a great number of people sitting at home watching the science channel have stumbled onto an abstract idea that may revolutionize our understanding of the universe, but then was lost to time to due to their rudimentary math skills.
 

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maybe he means particles that are not photons, so they have a mass.

these can not travel at the speed of light

actually, at some velocity (before light speed) they would turn into a micro black hole (schwarzschild radius formula is rather simple, just plug in the numbers).

this tiny black hole would evaporate via hawking radiation -> gone
 

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The mainstream science world has a way of dealing with people like this - dismiss them as cranks and dump their letters in the bin. While I do not believe any outsider I have encountered has done any work that challenges mainstream physics, I have come to believe that they should not be so summarily ignored.
I completely agree. "Scientists" can't be called scientists unless they're open to new ideas. Science doesn't advance when all "scientists" subscribe to one idea and ignores the rest. Why? It's easier to dismiss than prove incorrect.
 

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the universe was a plasma until about 300k years into its existance. think: plasma = hot gas like the sun

a plasma is opaque to radiation (not transparent), so photons (= radiation) can not freely travel through it.

at 300k years the temperature was 3000 kelvin (above which it would be a plasma)

now the light of this 3000 kelvin surface can travel the universe freely, but the universe is expanding, so the light waves of the photons get expanded with it (red shift)

today we see these photons as the cosmic microwave background radiation that is coming from all sides. wavelength is 1 mm (microwave)

all this is pretty well understood and verified by countless experiments

so no, this radiation he speaks of can not be that old becuase it would have been red shifted too much. there are plenty of other sources for high energy particles though

tsk, you're talking rubbish again man! Check out The Nine Point Five Theses which will set you free! Mahahahaha!!! :laugh:
 

the54thvoid

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Thank fuck someone is speaking sense. I refer to W1zz.

In scientific terms a 'theory' is a concept that can be tested and experimental results from it are repeatable. Quantum Theory is one such thing that has been developed and discovered/designed into equations and mathematics that can be used to describe a plethora of other observations. This is why the Higgs Boson is a very important epoch for the standard model. It has been predicted by the mathematics to exist.
The good thing about proper science is that if the Higgs isn't there, the standard model falls apart and a new approach is taken. Current data suggest a hint of it at a certain particle weight but at the moment of the 300 trillion data points it is statistically still not enough. More work needs to be done.
Onto the quackery of this topic. Giving people credence based on the, "I'm open to anything standpoint" is neither helpful or productive. It accelerates random thoughts into the mainstream and makes it easier for people to laugh and poke scorn at the 'priesthood of science'.
If people want to be taken seriously in the scientific community they need to develop ideas that can be tested and have results from experimentation that are repeatable - then and only then does it comes close to scientific theory.

These talks are always flameful as it creates the whole 'belief versus science' approach which should be always 100% apart.

Giving credence to non scientific thinking in a science realm is utter idiocy.

Just ask a conservative christian to talk religion with Tom Cruise. Scientology is growing in popularity and is now a recognised 'religion'. Scientology and christianity are utterly incompatible but still they exist. At least Judaism/Islam and Christianity are all Abrahamic.

So, seperate the science from the hokum children and stop being generous to crack brained ideas with no scientific merit. And yes, continue to question science because it is only by questioning current science with new 'provable and vaild' theories that we move our universal understanding on.

I am not coming back to this thread. If you can't use factual evidence on a science sub forum you should be using a separate forum called "The Vague ideas based on my own thoughts Forum".
 

W1zzard

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qubit

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Thank fuck someone is speaking sense. I refer to W1zz.

...and qubit. ;) I started this thread debunking these muppets.

Thanks for a very good post. :)
 

qubit

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