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Computer does not start. Amazing discovery why.

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Yesterday i was assembling my parts into Thermaltake Element V Black Edition case.

After the assembly the computer did not start. A quick power surge, the fans spun for a second, and then just silence. There were no error indicators on the system board like bad dram_led and the stand by lights were on. The same system was running just fine in my previous Chieftek case that same morning, so the first thought was "something is wrong with the Thermaltake case".
I have disconnected all the sata devices, all fans, controllers, cables from ports as well as from the system panel connector and turned the computer on with the button on the motherboard itself, but it did not start - a quick power surge with fans spinning just for a moment and then shutting down.
After this i have removed the computer parts from the case and placed them bare on the table, turning the computer on with the integrated power button in the motherboard - it worked.

After this i understood that the case itself somehow prevents the computer from starting. Cursed case? The only logic conclusion came to mind - the computer was shortcuting with the case and i had to find out why. The answer did not take long to figure out...

First of all, place only those hexagonal screws on the case, those will be needed for mounting the motherboard. Do not attach unnecessary hexagonal screws for microATX, BTX and other formats of motherboards if you won't be placing those motherboards.

Second, attach an antistatic sheet between the case and the motherboard, so that no part of the case touches the motherboard.

These 2 key features were the problem solvers. This is how it should be done:



And this is how it looks after:

 
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Looks a bit tacky
 
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It is a very common issue with computers. Faced it 100s of times.

The best thing to do is to place the plastic washer between the screws, most cases come with them. And its not just cases shorting the motherboard, sometimes too much application of thermal paste, specially on a delidded CPU, or on a laptop CPU also results in similar behaviour, that one is really tough to diagnose.
 
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my money is on you not fitting the 8 pin 12v cpu power correctly and it was only when you removed it from the case and rebuilt it on the box it went in all the way again.

if it was anything on the mobo tray which was causing a short you would still see it now, poking up into the foam sheet you have across it.
 
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my money is on you not fitting the 8 pin 12v cpu power correctly

Wrong. The 8 pin EPS 12V CPU cable had been secured at all times as well as the 24 pin MB cable..

The motherboard has many protruding metal pieces. One of those pieces, probably the bottom part of condenser, was touching an unnecessary hexagonal screw. The antistatic sheet is just an additional precaution.
 
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There's absolutely no need for the antistatic sheet in between if you use spacers, the issue was likely a spacer in the wrong place as you mentioned shorting the board, I've had this issue once, though it's user error and normally fairly easy not to repeat once you have done it once as it will likely have taken a couple of hours of head scratching and swearing before you figure out what the issue was the first time :toast: :laugh:
 
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Why such a good cooler on a processor that isnt for overclocking?
Also if your case is shorting the MoBo then there is a fault with the case structure, because those standoffs should single handedly do what that sheet of fluff is doing right now.
 
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Why would you put in more standoffs than your motherboard has holes for?

More, is not better, in this case.

Most case makers give you one or two extras for spares or different configurations.
 
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Why would you put in more standoffs than your motherboard has holes for?

More, is not better, in this case.

Most case makers give you one or two extras for spares or different configurations.

Not more than your case has :slap: in the holes that are also in the case for other size motherboards :laugh:
 
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Many shops place those antistatic sheets there, just to prevent returning clients. i don't like it in my builds, but, hey it works.
 
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There's absolutely no need for the antistatic sheet in between if you use spacers, the issue was likely a spacer in the wrong place as you mentioned shorting the board

Aha.

Also if your case is shorting the MoBo then there is a fault with the case structure, because those standoffs should single handedly do what that sheet of fluff is doing right now.

The corner of the empty backplate space is also bend 1 mm inwards and can touch the MB if pressed enough, that is why i took no risk and attached that anti-static sheet, but as i have said, the main problem was the additional hexagonal screw touching the bottom of the condenser. Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).

Why would you put in more standoffs than your motherboard has holes for?

Because it looks cool. A case fully filled with standoffs is ready for any type of MB. Unfortunately this can cause shortcuts as in my case.
 
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I imagine that anti-static Styrofoam like material could create heating issues--especially on the backside of the CPU. I would not recommend that.
 
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Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).

Your case has serious grounding issues then. If you still feel the electricity despite that antistatic sheet, you have worse problems.
 

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I don't think so... not for me anyhow.

If the pc industry (ie: mfgs.) thought using anti-static sheets was a good idea it would have done it a long time ago.

Not only does it not look cool, IMO it's ugly and it is a FIRE HAZARD.
Has anyone ever seen electronics go bad? Usually there is heat involved when they do.
Good luck with that.
There's something else going on in there that needs to be corrected regarding a short.
Fix it the right way before someone gets hurt.

Originally Posted by Artas1984
Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).


Sounds like possibly the electric service in your house is not grounded correctly if you have the pc turned off and the wall plug connected. Something's back feeding power, however slight, through that power line. Disconnect it and see what happens. If you still have juice, it probably is a leaking capacator in the PSU itself.
 
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First of all, place only those hexagonal screws on the case, those will be needed for mounting the motherboard. Do not attach unnecessary hexagonal screws for microATX, BTX and other formats of motherboards if you won't be placing those motherboards.
That's computer building 101. A standoff making contact with a motherboard component is.. well.. bad.

[/quote]Second, attach an antistatic sheet between the case and the motherboard, so that no part of the case touches the motherboard.[/quote]

No part of the case should be touching the motherboard if it is installed correctly. It might be a decent "quick fix" while waiting for a non-defective case... if that is the case.
 

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Just put a replacement motherboard and no nothing on power up, it's an old Alienware tower (2005) but the replacement motherboard came with an Intel P4 3.8GHz and it's watercooled. Was interested to see how much I could overclock it. Now that I see it could be the mobo grounded (I thought it was a bad board) I may go back and play with that old rig and get it running.
 

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Foam sheet could have air-pockets that trap heat. Not recommended. Besides, it doesn't have any anti-static properties. The plastic pouch your motherboard came in, has it. The foam sheet is added only for cushioning, and for preventing sharp solder points from tearing into the anti-static bag and cardboard box.
 
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Foam sheet could have air-pockets that trap heat. Not recommended. Besides, it doesn't have any anti-static properties. The plastic pouch your motherboard came in, has it. The foam sheet is added only for cushioning, and for preventing sharp solder points from tearing into the anti-static bag and cardboard box.

It will also melt when it gets hot
 

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It will also melt when it gets hot

I doubt if 100°C is enough to melt it. This same material is used for insulation in the refrigeration and heating industry. The backside of a CPU socket doesn't get that hot.
 
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Wrong. The 8 pin EPS 12V CPU cable had been secured at all times as well as the 24 pin MB cable..

The motherboard has many protruding metal pieces. One of those pieces, probably the bottom part of condenser, was touching an unnecessary hexagonal screw. The antistatic sheet is just an additional precaution.

so your mobo has a condenser?

is it phase cooled?

so you fitted too many stand offs is what you are saying?

only thats an obvious cause of shorts right there...
 

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something is short circuiting.
it the motherboard backside contacts must have touched the extra un used mounting screws. not amazing discovery :p

the anti static has no part to play as the mother board is grounded through the mounting screws.


gah erocker beat me to it again.
 
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Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).

If that's the case, make sure you are using grounded outlet. This is a must.
 
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I imagine that anti-static Styrofoam like material could create heating issues--especially on the backside of the CPU. I would not recommend that.

Foam sheet could have air-pockets that trap heat. Not recommended. Besides, it doesn't have any anti-static properties. The plastic pouch your motherboard came in, has it. The foam sheet is added only for cushioning, and for preventing sharp solder points from tearing into the anti-static bag and cardboard box.

Nonsense. There is no heat accumulating around my CPU. It's pretty well vented. And the foam sheet does have anti-static properties.
 
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Nonsense. There is no heat accumulating around my CPU. It's pretty well vented.

Then wrap your entire motherboard with the stuff. See what happens to a "well vented" CPU when insulators are crammed in close proximity.

Dont fill your case with standoffs you dont need.
Dont use a case that is faulty (bent) and may touch the Motherboard when you press it. OR UNBEND IT.
Dont use insulators around expensive hot components.
Dont forget to ground the damn case if you can feel electricity when you touch it.
 
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Then wrap your entire motherboard with the stuff. See what happens to a "well vented" CPU when insulators are crammed in close proximity.

I am not an idiot, but you make a pretty big shot out of yourself. As if i do not understand such simple THIGNS as that...

Of course the foam prevents the heat from dissipating backwards. However, the effect is so minimal that it does not make a difference.

Next time don't try so sound like a smart ass.

Why such a good cooler on a processor that isnt for overclocking?

My, it does bother you that i put a mid range performance CPU with the top of the line cooler. Perhaps i just struck a good deal for that cooler. Besides, every CPU is overclock-able with the right MB.
 
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