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At 4K resolution, do we still need AA?

Durvelle27

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Since 1440p made pretty much zero difference on the AA level I need and 4k is only about a 50% ppi bump it's safe to say AA will still be quite necessary at desktop screen sizes. 8k will be when AA might loose some value, but even then I don't think it'd be safe to say it won't need it.

28 inch 1440/1600 you dont need it. 24 inch 1200 you dont need it.

Sure, if you have glaucoma.
 
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The reason I ask is because DVI wouldn't work at all for me but HDMI was fine and worked.

Well I managed to to up my refreshrate by 5 hertz. I'd do HDMI but I'm already using that port and I have to have two screen at the very least.
Also I take it back, I'm using VGA to DVI.
 

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The reason I ask is because DVI wouldn't work at all for me but HDMI was fine and worked.
Was both the cable and then port on the GPU using dual-link DVI? Single-link can't handle that resolution. On my 6870s I have two DVI ports and I think only one of them supports dual-link.
 

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Was both the cable and then port on the GPU using dual-link DVI? Single-link can't handle that resolution. On my 6870s I have two DVI ports and I think only one of them supports dual-link.
My 290X had 2x DVI-D (Dual-Link), HDMI, and DP 1.2
 
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it entirely depends on the size of the screen.

a 4K 24"? you wont see it

a 46"? you'd see it.
+1

Precisely, it depends on the [(pixel area) / (screen area)]^-1 =< (2D Nyquist sampling rate of eyeball) @ x distance from monitor
 

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Goodness gracious, 4k is really becoming popular, looks like my tri-x 290s wont be able to handle the load :(
 
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4K is not a resolution, it is a display mode. Yes, smartphones have a higher resolution because of the large display mode for such relatively small screens but they are not required to do anything meaningful (compared to e.g. workstations).
And things like wires still tend to look weird without AA on my screen (still I leave it off for obvious reasons).
THIS!!!!!

there's a huge difference with and without AA. lines such as power lines telephone wires etc look like ****. It drives me crazy
on other things not so much.

Goodness gracious,
4k is really becoming popular, looks like my tri-x 290s
wont be able to handle the load :(
That's what she said..........
 
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I'm satisfied with low AA on 1080p, probably won't use it at 4K.

To simulating the situation, just play 3D game at iPad 1/2 from your normal viewing distance, it's 130+ ppi screen, almost equal to 32" 4K.
 
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I'm satisfied with low AA on 1080p, probably won't use it at 4K.

To simulating the situation, just play 3D game at iPad 1/2 from your normal viewing distance, it's 130+ ppi screen, almost equal to 32" 4K.

And what do you do to simulate an iPad?
 
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Speaking of, so is 2560x1600, or at least the next gen high end smartphones are going quad HD(LG G3). Here's what i'm dying to know. if every high-mainstream to top noch smartphone can have 1080p and even 1600p. why are pc monitors till stagnant? i mean come on, 4.8-5.5" smartphone gets 1600p/1080p yet we can't have 17" 1080p monitors? 22" 1600p monitors? I really don't understand it. and with it becoming so damn common 1600p monitors ought to cost $200 tops.
They have 3200x1800 resolutions on laptop screens as small as 13 inches. And for crying out loud, they can get 1440p on a 11.6 inch screen. It's strange that desktop monitors don't get such pixel density love. Especially since it's more feasible for desktops to have the power to make use of such high resolutions. I don't think it has anything to do with the sizes of screens. 1440p is available starting from 27 inches on desktops while laptops can get them at 11.6 inches; I don't think there's any real technological hurdle to make them at 17 to 24 inches for desktop monitors.
 
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Windows font scaling is the reason.
 
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That maybe the official reason, but it's a crappy reason.

Don't laptops have to face the same things? Sure pretty much all of those high resolution and/or pixel density screen laptops come with Windows 8, which does ave better font scaling, but isn't Windows 8 also for desktops? ... oh, right. :rolleyes: *sigh*

Even with it, desktop monitors will have lower pixel density simply due to physical size so font scaling issues are somewhat mitigated there.
 
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I think the consensus here is your going to have to decide for yourself. It does make a difference but it depends on the user and the eye looking at the image if it helps them or makes it a better experience.
 

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I want 4k at 64x msaa......
 
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Windows font scaling is the reason.

I think money and practicality are the reasons.

4k (for the most part) started with high-margin 55''+ tvs, where the practical use was not only arguably the most tangible, but are/(were) also more lucrative (for the panel maker) than a smaller monitor, not to mention it made it more exclusive (which keeps the margin higher longer). Obviously a monitor vendor wants the opposite; they can make their 30% markup per higher-selling commodity item, but they are reliant on the panel makers and specs to make that feasible. Also, just like a phone/tablet, a tv is going to likely be a more passive experience with less stringent guidelines (be that color, refresh rate, response time, input lag, input options, etc) and that's where (until recently) we sat.

Monitors are getting there now, as <70'' panel prices (across resolutions) are expected to take a substantial nosedive by the end of this year (If you've noticed a lot of September release announcements...that's why), and as (like I've mentioned before) the panel suppliers are beginning to get their panels at high-enough yield rates and specs (along with inputs like hdmi 2.0) to make them feasible to cut down and sell in bulk for monitors (obviously at least up to 32'' from auo). The question then becomes one of practicality/market for something like gaming...and I would argue on the whole the ecosystem is not there yet (meaning for the average consumer). No doubt this year and into the next it will drop the level from 'elite' to high-end, but things like true adobe RGB color/new displayport are things that will probably help a lot of people make the jump when conditions are more ideal. As such, that's likely when they will get the most attention by suppliers. That's not to say there won't be landmark products along the way.

As for the AA question, I agree it's a case-by-case, but personally, I use a metric of 20/15 vision as many (most?) people fall roughly into that criteria. Arguably it doesn't matter if you go by 20/15 or 20/20 though as the result is similar; in many cases 4k will benefit from 2x AA (or essentially 8k), but it certainly is less predominantly required for many people's scenarios than before 4k.

To make it simple using 20/20 vision:

28'' at 2' would be the threshold for perhaps typically not really needing it. Might you sit closer or have a relatively larger screen/distance? Sure. Might your vision be slightly better? Probably. That is why I think 2xAA will remain a thing (for those using up to ~40-42''/2ft, ~32/20'' etc)...just like 8xAA was preferred, but 4xAA was the sweet spot for 1080p.
 
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+1

Precisely, it depends on the [(pixel area) / (screen area)]^-1 =< (2D Nyquist sampling rate of eyeball) @ x distance from monitor
Exactly, 4k monitors are really at this point a waste of money. Not only that, i played on a 4k monitor on a 4 Crossfired setup, it was good but it wasnt THAT GOOd
 
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28 inch 1440/1600 you dont need it.

Well, I can definitely tell the difference between 0, x2 and x4 MSAA with 1440p on a 27". Most of the time I use x2. With some games and no AA I still see jagginess.
 

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Well, I can definitely tell the difference between 0, x2 and x4 MSAA with 1440p on a 27". Most of the time I use x2. With some games and no AA I still see jagginess.
Even at 1080p I seldom set AA to anything over 2x. I'll use 4x if it really needs it.
 
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Since 1440p made pretty much zero difference on the AA level I need and 4k is only about a 50% ppi bump it's safe to say AA will still be quite necessary at desktop screen sizes. 8k will be when AA might loose some value, but even then I don't think it'd be safe to say it won't need it.



Sure, if you have glaucoma.

I'd love to live in your world. It's a cheap dig, but it'd be 1k, 4k, 9k, 16k, 25k, etc... The term would be related to functionally just tacking a bunch of 1920x1080 monitors together, and 8k would not form a rectangle.


On a non-pedantic note, AA has never been particularly useful to me beyond 2x. I adopted 1920x1080 whenever 20-24" monitors were a reasonable price. Before that, you had 1024x768. At that low of a resolution the reasonably priced 18" monitors didn't look bad (read: video game graphics were polygons, so AA wasn't a high priority). By the time 4K is reasonably priced, the monitor options will likely start around 27". Considering that the pixel density will actually be higher than my current monitor, AA will be less useful than the 2x that I occasionally use now.

All this aside, somebody out there always claims that at least 4x AA is a necessity on anything with a pixel density less than 1920x1080 on a 15' monitor. Those people generally are unsatisfied by anything because they want higher benching values, rather than functional enough operation. Consider it as such. UT3 was prettier than UT2k4, which by some people's standards make it better than its predecessor. I'd say that if UT3 never existed the Unreal Tournament franchise would have been better off. Sometime better graphics and higher resolutions aren't whet we need, we need content to make 4k anything worth viewing. As yet, I don't see much out there.
 
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They have 3200x1800 resolutions on laptop screens as small as 13 inches. And for crying out loud, they can get 1440p on a 11.6 inch screen. It's strange that desktop monitors don't get such pixel density love. Especially since it's more feasible for desktops to have the power to make use of such high resolutions. I don't think it has anything to do with the sizes of screens. 1440p is available starting from 27 inches on desktops while laptops can get them at 11.6 inches; I don't think there's any real technological hurdle to make them at 17 to 24 inches for desktop monitors.

I don't think there really is a reason, just excuses. As a pc gamer i take it as a punch to the face that we're pushed to the back of the room where as TV's, Smartphones, and laptops are getting same resolutions if not higher on much smaller screens. Mind i still game at 1280x1024(used to game on 1680x1050), I've just been biding my time expecting 2560x1600 screens to have reached reasonable price and size; "22-24" + <$200, by now.

EDIT: I got it! i'll get a smartphone that has "video in" instead of out, and hook up my desktop to it :D
 
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1440p still need AA but 4K is absolutely not from my try.
 
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late to the party but screen size and viewing distance play roles here. 1080p could show no jaggies with no aa if you're on a 20" screen sat far from you. On a 27" screen right infront of you it can look like jagggy city. Your eyes at a distance will naturally smooth what the game does not. 18" from your face might be a nightmare, whereas 30" might not. Looking at my mighty mouse avvy fron normal sitting reveals jaggies, as I scoot back it gets smoother and smaller.

Remember that a 20" 1080P and 40" 4K have the same pixel pitch. So I'd say it depends on the screen size , game, viewing distance, and screen quality. An 80" 4k viewed from your couch just might benefit from a bit of AA. Just sayin.
 

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At 24 and 27 inches no because that's like playing a game with 4x supersampling. In sniper elite 3 at 2.25x supersampling already looks glorious on its own so I can't imagine people not being pleased with the aliasing in games. Unless you want ABSOLUTELY NO SHIMMERING at all in which case just put on txaa 2x.
 
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Well, I can definitely tell the difference between 0, x2 and x4 MSAA with 1440p on a 27". Most of the time I use x2. With some games and no AA I still see jagginess.

of course you can tell their is a difference, they make it more blurry all over the image, not just jaggies.

tbh i talking more about 1600 than 1440 but i guess it all depends upon how you define "need".

personally i dont think you need it on a 27 1440p. but i too would prefare x2 if it was a vaible option.
 
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