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Nicolas Guerin (From Ubisoft) is not in touch with reality.

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Where's the AAA titles using it, and benefitting?


THAT is why "Mantle exists", and frankly, I don't see it doing that much. Why that is... I am not sure.

BF 4?

Not that is without its bugs, one 290x: DX11 render works, Mantle crashes. two 290x in CF: DX11 crashes but Mantle works...
 
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I think you're absolutely right. 4 modules (8 threads) at 1.2 GHz is very bad, especially for single-threaded work loads like AI generally is. I think this is going to force developers to develop SMT AIs and, although that sucks in the short term, it is amaze-bawls in the long term. Think of how complex an AI could be if it was coded for SMT? More intelligent & aware AI on a 16-core machine compared to a 4-core machine? Hell yes!

I think AMD's lackluster performance is going to finally get us engines for the computing future (parallel, not linear).

that is what many of us hoped for, a true next gen with next gen architecture....

what a shocker that nubisoft is crying about some bs reason why they are stiffing the customer again.

more cost effective is all it is. wankers.
 
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why are people comparing bulldozer arch to console cpu performance?
Actually. Both consoles have 8 jaguar cores, which are the lower power cores of amd usually used in netbooks etc.
they got chosen because they're quite efficient, and actually quite close ipc wise to bulldozer. So they provided the performance/Watt, reserving more for the gpu.
they're not clocked at 1,2 but at a rumored 1,6 and 1,85 for the ps4 and xbox1 respectively.
While both sony and microsoft could've obviously used a cpu-arch with higher thoughput, 8 of these cores with AVX support at decent clock speeds arent actually that bad when it comes to compute. Furthermore right at the first official presentation of th PS4, devs already announced they were expecting the GPU to be used for a lot of compute like physics and AI, because of its capabilities as a compute agent aswell as a GPU.
My guess is that while AI obviously isn't easy, and console CPUs obviously arent the quickest, it really is just ubi's fault in the end. There really is quite a lot of compute capability, but you have to be able to extract it. If you cant, you should just accept that and design your game with this in mind, not first design a game which doesnt un, and then blame the hardware thats already set in stone for multiple years.
Also, why, if the game really is CPU bound, do they need to lower the res at all? Surely if the GPU is just idling part of the time it could just render in 1080p instead of 900p. It shouldnt really matter drawcall wise?

There actually seem to be multiple reasons why the guy is atleast partially speaking untruths, or making himself look bad to the sharp of mind, and its actually a bit embarrasing.
 

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This sounds the same to me as the dude from Microsoft waxing lyrical about how Microsoft done wrong by abandoning PC gaming and will start working on getting back to their roots.... but not before the guy who announced the whole thing and did all the interviews leaves his job at microsoft...

Looks like these new gen consoles are already so far behind their almost obsolete when compared to PC. And here we were all hoping that new gen consoles would bridge the gap in performance and make PC games less sucky
 
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Idiots like this cripple progress.
As implied above, this is merely a lazy, one size fits all performance scheme where PC is brought down to console level because they no longer want to take the time to give the PC version separate optimization. More recently, in their wanting to boost console sales by leveling the playing field, it kills two birds with one stone for them.

It hate devs like this with a passion. Nothing but lies and BS excuses. The greedy, lazy bastards. They have no business even working in the gaming industry. And more often than not these are studio leads promoted up by the publishing side of big pub/dev teams, and the guys with the real talent and creativity at the dev end get held back by it.

It would serve them right if the more talented devs left and formed their own team, or went to join a team who's leaders actually DO care about PC gaming. We on PC have been taken on an emotional roller coaster ride ever since the so called "next gen" came about. At first it was all about how PC sales were about to eclipse console sales. But what good is it if they want to make PC games look like console games?
 

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ubisoft is still relevant???? I would have thought nobody would give them the time of day .
 

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I've had my share of Ubisoft-hating, but Splinter Cell Blacklist was a pretty damned good game. Not by any means a true stealth SC like the first three, but a good game that sucked me in in spite of myself. And I'm looking forward to Far Cry 4, so maybe I guess I am giving them an open-minded shot at some redemption, LOL.
 
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I've had my share of Ubisoft-hating, but Splinter Cell Blacklist was a pretty damned good game. Not by any means a true stealth SC like the first three, but a good game that sucked me in in spite of myself. And I'm looking forward to Far Cry 4, so maybe I guess I am giving them an open-minded shot at some redemption, LOL.

Few argue against their game concepts, that's where they shine. It's quality control and integrity to PC they fall apart on.
 

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Few argue against their game concepts, that's where they shine. It's quality control and integrity to PC they fall apart on.

That you are most correct on, sir.
 
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Two points to make here. First, the 8-core APU isn't 8-core. You've got one dedicated to the OS, two to three dedicated to the 3d rendering, which effectively puts you at 4-5 cores. The IPC of Jaguar isn't hugely above that of the previous generation consoles, so we're looking at almost a wash. Increases in IPC and core count, but a decrease is per core frequency. Assuming Jaguar could be pushed to 2+ GHz, maybe we'd actually have seen a radical jump in power, but both MS and Sony wanted consoles making money, rather than taking a loss on each produced. The PS3 really shifted the game last generation.

Processing power aside, game engines are all old. As has been pointed out, Gamebryo/Creation appeared in Fallout 3, and has been patched ever since. Anyone else remember backward flying dragons in Skyrim? Something designed for a single core, then boot-strapped to multiple cores, will never run efficiently. Ubisoft runs the same crappy ancient engines, and rather than overhaul them they decrease the specifications. It's so standard on current gen consoles that people have come to expect it.


The thing about all of this is that people are swallowing it. While Skyrim on PC gets dozens of visual mods to make it better, the consoles still believe vanilla is enough. Ubisoft, and the games industry as a whole, are using that as a backwards justification for lower standards. If they don't absolutely have to write a new engine they won't. I'm looking forward to the not too distant day when a standard $400 PC can completely outstrip the performance of a console, and somebody points this out to people. That will be the death knell for this generation, and hopefully either the end of consoles or the end of patchwork engines from decades ago.
 

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First, @lilhasselhoffer, I must preface up front that I always love your posts, reading them voraciously and digesting them, because they are most times not only well-thought out, but hit the mark, so don't take my remark negatively.

You talk about an impetus to drive the game creators to change, and also mention Skyrim. Interesting example for my point, and germane to the lead post of this discussion, and in particular, Bethesda as mentioned in post #3, since it was not only created by Bethesda, but published by Bethesda as well. If I am not mistaken, Skyrim PC sales at this point are nearly equal to or greater than console sales of Skyrim. And, because of mods, I'm guessing it will be played by many, many people for years to come on PC, much as Oblivion was. Now, my point is, Bethesda knows what we in the PC community do to their games, and they encourage it. They are also aware of how many people bought the PC version. That alone should have told them that if you offer something good to the PC crowd, they will come. You can still make your money as a company without having to shortchange the PC gamers. I'd be willing to guess that the large majority of console users haven't played since the first playthrough. So technically, Skyrim should have proved to Bethesda at least that you don't have to cater to the consoles.
 
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First, @lilhasselhoffer, I must preface up front that I always love your posts, reading them voraciously and digesting them, because they are most times not only well-thought out, but hit the mark, so don't take my remark negatively.

You talk about an impetus to drive the game creators to change, and also mention Skyrim. Interesting example for my point, and germane to the lead post of this discussion, and in particular, Bethesda as mentioned in post #3, since it was not only created by Bethesda, but published by Bethesda as well. If I am not mistaken, Skyrim PC sales at this point are nearly equal to or greater than console sales of Skyrim. And, because of mods, I'm guessing it will be played by many, many people for years to come on PC, much as Oblivion was. Now, my point is, Bethesda knows what we in the PC community do to their games, and they encourage it. They are also aware of how many people bought the PC version. That alone should have told them that if you offer something good to the PC crowd, they will come. You can still make your money as a company without having to shortchange the PC gamers. I'd be willing to guess that the large majority of console users haven't played since the first playthrough. So technically, Skyrim should have proved to Bethesda at least that you don't have to cater to the consoles.

Looking at this from a slightly different perspective, Skyrim is a unique example. There were two things I considered when bringing it up, but apparently I don't do a great job framing what was in my mind.

First, mods and friendliness to computer users is a huge hang-over from the days of Fallout 3. Gamebryo is and always has been a broken POS, which required outside patching to get it running. Anyone who played Fallout 3 before any of the patches should be well aware of that turd in the punch bowl. Random CTDs were more common of the PC than anything else in the wasteland. Bethesda eventually pushed out updates, but the community largely made the game playable prior to Bethesda releasing their patches. This sets the bar pretty low on PC support for Bethesda, and honestly their QA hasn't gotten better. Skyrim showed the same failures all over again, which took a good several months to patch out. When a developer basically can't be bothered to make sure a PC game is stable they've shown where their priorities lie.

Point two, the Legendary Edition of Skyrim is a unique oddity. Other developers push out DLC on the stores like it was candy. 99 cents for a new costume, $10 for a new area. That's what Bethesda did, but once their big three DLC packs came out they released the Legendary Edition. Counter to what most developers do, they continued to support their game, and actually brought it to people's attention again after release date. I'm hard pressed to see the same dedication to the consoles anywhere else. PC gamers got the Legendary Edition, but since Steam was required to play the game there was absolutely no reason that the Legendary Edition had to exist (GOTY edition have been released for some games, but they generally existed for games without Steam support due to terrible store fronts and no DLC distributors).


What I'd hazard to say is that Bethesda only supports mods because their patchwork engine requires them. If they ejected Gamebryo/Creation, I'd bet the modding community would also be ejected. Because Skyrim could run "well enough," Creation got to stick around. I'm sure an executive at Zenimax tasked with creating a new engine would start with the following criteria, as would most gaming executives:
1) Come in under budget, with an engine that will be modifiable and useable for at least a decade.
2) No support for computer modifications, so we can control DLC content.
3) Use at least one piece of code that offers a unique benefit to sell the new engine. Read: Mantle, Physx, and their ilk.
If you don't believe me here look at Unreal Tournament. 2k4 offered insane mods that made the game a hit for over a decade. Unreal Tournament 3 lost modding and died a quick death. I'd be hard pressed to find a server still running that game with a decent player base.

I'm too jaded to think anything else here. EA has set the tone in the games industry for the last decade. The cadence they established was constant iterations, a middle finger to the PC, and reusing the same tired engines until they physically could not support a playable experience. EA got a substantial amount of money, so they both bought up developers and became an industry standard. That kind of blind greed has led us into a near collapse of the console industry, which we've yet to truly recover from. The indie revolution is doing a decent job revitalizing things, but a billion 8-bit and 16 bit retro titles don't feed the masses.

Whenever I stop seeing an annual release of Football, US Football, and modern military shooters I'll concede that gaming has recovered. Right now, the cash cows of the industry are consoles. No executive has the balls to spend money developing a new engine, while the industry is on shaky grounds. They're willing to spend 1/3 the cost of a new engine on getting the old ones to work, and are willing to cut expectations because the optimizations are patching a broken leg.


In short, I completely disagree with the OP's thread title. Ubisoft has a shrewd person at the top, who is entirely in touch with reality. The difference is that, as with most executives, the video game industry is no longer about the games. They've justified killing expenses today to make a quick dollar, and have gone so far as to assume their customers are idiots. They invent bespoke resolution and frame rates to fit what decade old tech is capable of, and use the profits they generate to fund expansion. For lack of a better phrasing, developers are cells and publishers are viruses. Viruses expand, take over cells, reproduce, then burst the cells to form more of their own kind. My hope is that publishers realize this, but I don't see it happening. Eventually the crap decisions publishers make will push them to a state of poor profits, and without expansion viruses die. That death will hurt the video games industry, but maybe a little pain now will force a re-evaluation of priorities.

There's no reason that the xbox 360 could run 720p, and a decade later the xbox one and PS4 shouldn't be able to do 1080p. That'd be like saying that a Radeon HD 3650 and a Radeon R260 has no functional difference in power. We know that isn't true, so either the newer hardware is crap, or the software is crap. While the Jaguar isn't impressive, it has demonstrated far better performance than this.
 

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Well Bethesda now at least as CDprojekt Red to contend with Witcher 3 looks amazing and it will support mods not as easily as say Gamebryo has since Morrowind aka 2003 that engine has stayed roughly the same but I digress. Mainstream publishers and developers are losing ground to new devs

Again Witcher comes to mind look at the jump from The Witcher to the Witcher 2 now look at the jump from Witcher 2 to Witcher 3. With Witcher 3 going open world and offering mod support Bethesda will via competition need to step up or seem lacking. Sadly due to Games media being utter shit and paid for this will get swept under the rug. Regardless newer developers are paving the way.


Look at the screw ups by the Creative Assembly on their Total War series then look at what the Darth Mod creator has done. He made his own studio made an RTS game from scratch. http://www.ultimategeneral.com

The AI is actually challenging without being all knowing etc. Eventually the likes of ubisoft will be forced to change or become inconsequential look at THQ as evidence of that.

Essentially these companies can only continue to do what they do for so long history has proven when they get lethargic and complacent enough they do in fact fail.
 
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They should have emailed AMD and ask for help using this "last gen tech", but perhaps it was too "next gen" for these "next gen consoles" - skip to 6:48.

Quite said no one used it until now, tens of thousands of AI accelerated on the GPU would be great, especially in open world games.

 

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THe tech exists but no one has implemented it in a game engine. thus why its not in use.
 
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So long as the PC performance isnt effected in anyway, I could care less that it's locked at 900p @ 30FPS on consoles. To hell with that already out of date technology.
 
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Looking at this from a slightly different perspective, Skyrim is a unique example. There were two things I considered when bringing it up, but apparently I don't do a great job framing what was in my mind.

First, mods and friendliness to computer users is a huge hang-over from the days of Fallout 3. Gamebryo is and always has been a broken POS, which required outside patching to get it running. Anyone who played Fallout 3 before any of the patches should be well aware of that turd in the punch bowl. Random CTDs were more common of the PC than anything else in the wasteland. Bethesda eventually pushed out updates, but the community largely made the game playable prior to Bethesda releasing their patches. This sets the bar pretty low on PC support for Bethesda, and honestly their QA hasn't gotten better. Skyrim showed the same failures all over again, which took a good several months to patch out. When a developer basically can't be bothered to make sure a PC game is stable they've shown where their priorities lie.

Point two, the Legendary Edition of Skyrim is a unique oddity. Other developers push out DLC on the stores like it was candy. 99 cents for a new costume, $10 for a new area. That's what Bethesda did, but once their big three DLC packs came out they released the Legendary Edition. Counter to what most developers do, they continued to support their game, and actually brought it to people's attention again after release date. I'm hard pressed to see the same dedication to the consoles anywhere else. PC gamers got the Legendary Edition, but since Steam was required to play the game there was absolutely no reason that the Legendary Edition had to exist (GOTY edition have been released for some games, but they generally existed for games without Steam support due to terrible store fronts and no DLC distributors).


What I'd hazard to say is that Bethesda only supports mods because their patchwork engine requires them. If they ejected Gamebryo/Creation, I'd bet the modding community would also be ejected. Because Skyrim could run "well enough," Creation got to stick around. I'm sure an executive at Zenimax tasked with creating a new engine would start with the following criteria, as would most gaming executives:
1) Come in under budget, with an engine that will be modifiable and useable for at least a decade.
2) No support for computer modifications, so we can control DLC content.
3) Use at least one piece of code that offers a unique benefit to sell the new engine. Read: Mantle, Physx, and their ilk.
If you don't believe me here look at Unreal Tournament. 2k4 offered insane mods that made the game a hit for over a decade. Unreal Tournament 3 lost modding and died a quick death. I'd be hard pressed to find a server still running that game with a decent player base.

I'm too jaded to think anything else here. EA has set the tone in the games industry for the last decade. The cadence they established was constant iterations, a middle finger to the PC, and reusing the same tired engines until they physically could not support a playable experience. EA got a substantial amount of money, so they both bought up developers and became an industry standard. That kind of blind greed has led us into a near collapse of the console industry, which we've yet to truly recover from. The indie revolution is doing a decent job revitalizing things, but a billion 8-bit and 16 bit retro titles don't feed the masses.

Whenever I stop seeing an annual release of Football, US Football, and modern military shooters I'll concede that gaming has recovered. Right now, the cash cows of the industry are consoles. No executive has the balls to spend money developing a new engine, while the industry is on shaky grounds. They're willing to spend 1/3 the cost of a new engine on getting the old ones to work, and are willing to cut expectations because the optimizations are patching a broken leg.


In short, I completely disagree with the OP's thread title. Ubisoft has a shrewd person at the top, who is entirely in touch with reality. The difference is that, as with most executives, the video game industry is no longer about the games. They've justified killing expenses today to make a quick dollar, and have gone so far as to assume their customers are idiots. They invent bespoke resolution and frame rates to fit what decade old tech is capable of, and use the profits they generate to fund expansion. For lack of a better phrasing, developers are cells and publishers are viruses. Viruses expand, take over cells, reproduce, then burst the cells to form more of their own kind. My hope is that publishers realize this, but I don't see it happening. Eventually the crap decisions publishers make will push them to a state of poor profits, and without expansion viruses die. That death will hurt the video games industry, but maybe a little pain now will force a re-evaluation of priorities.

There's no reason that the xbox 360 could run 720p, and a decade later the xbox one and PS4 shouldn't be able to do 1080p. That'd be like saying that a Radeon HD 3650 and a Radeon R260 has no functional difference in power. We know that isn't true, so either the newer hardware is crap, or the software is crap. While the Jaguar isn't impressive, it has demonstrated far better performance than this.


Your great post just made wish that much more for the next Elder Scrolls game, with it's Gamebryo flaws and excellent Bethesda support.
This is why I pay full price always for Bethesda games, they deserve it. Not Ubisoft, I wait for a heavily discounted sales price or simply don't buy.
 
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Your great post just made wish that much more for the next Elder Scrolls game, with it's Gamebryo flaws and excellent Bethesda support.
This is why I pay full price always for Bethesda games, they deserve it. Not Ubisoft, I wait for a heavily discounted sales price or simply don't buy.

Not sure how to respond to that. My point was the the release version of Bethesda games focus on consoles first, and the PC is treated as a second class citizen.

Imagining each developer had a bus, there are three sitting in the parking lot. Bethesda has an engine from the 70's, but is painted well. Ubisoft and EA have a bus with three wheels, they require you to buy the fourth as DLC, they card you before getting on the bus, and they chain you to a chair once you're on. Finally, the indie bust is cobbled together from a bunch of geo metros. The key difference between Betheda and EA/Ubisoft is that even the seats at the back of the Bethesda bus are nice. You don't necessarily get the best view, or the fastest updates, but before the end of the bus ride you're comfortable and have had a good experience. Companies like Ubisoft stuff PC gamers into storage compartments, the console gamers get second class seats, and stock holders sit at the front of the bus. Indie bus barely runs, breaks down often, is an eye sore, but when it runs the ride is smoother than teflon.

I'm waiting for the fourth bus to pull into the lot. CD Projekt Red seems to be at the helm, but a bus with only an engine isn't practical. Whenever there are other developers that awesome, and they finish building that bus, I'll gladly buy a ticket. Right now, the choice of transportation is kind of crappy.
 
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"Technically we're CPU-bound,"

This is obviously true, and I have stated this many times before the PS4 and X1 were released. Low clocks, multicore overhead, AMD cores - what did anyone expect otherwise?!

For me this was the main deal breaker as far is this gen could be even called 'next-gen' in any way shape or form. It is current gen at best, and even that is pushing it.

@lilhasselhoffer
As far as Bethesda is concerned, you may very well be right about the mod support but if anything I am seeing that modding is more popular and accessible than ever before. It is one of the driving factors in the increasing popularity of Steam through the Steam Workshop, which dominates PC gaming. Modding and moddability is quickly becoming a key selling point too for an increasingly larger group of gamers, especially PC gamers. The indie movement is a key factor in driving this new expectation in gaming. The consumer is more and more becoming part of the development process and smart publishers use that to drive sales, and those who corner that off to enforce DLC are getting much less popular. It is also becoming more and more of a stretch to say that triple A publishers are actually producing better products, look at the Destiny reviews, expectations are unrealistically high and any kind of fault is getting a head-on assault from the press. Indie releases on the other hand keep surprising in a positive way, look at Divinity: OS, even though at its core those are never the games with stunning visuals and all those other things that do well in marketing.

Console gamers are slowly going to get served with the indie movement as well, with both Sony and MS supporting a platform that allows for moddability and lowering the barrier for developers to create something for their consoles. It is inevitable that the added (replay) value of modding will dawn on the console gamer too, and it will likely happen in this gen. Microsoft just bought Minecraft, for example. The funny thing about this is that the very thing that may get in the way of big publishers' sales is the thing MS and Sony need to keep their consoles competitive. Even today the number of exclusives is lacking and the PC offers a far more complete game library of recent titles.

So in conclusion I have a hard time believing a new Elder Scrolls title will ban modding altogether. Maybe it will be somewhat more limited, but even that is highly doubtful. Skyrim's popularity is largely based on its moddability and expansiveness for virtually every PC gamer.

I also have a hard time getting on your indie bus example. If anything the indie bus features the most dedicated and 'passionate' driver, has decent seating, and the driver keeps its passengers up to date on how far along the ride they are. And as a bonus many of its rides come at half price, too. So what if the bus lacked airconditioning, nobody cares anymore.
 
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...
As far as Bethesda is concerned, you may very well be right about the mod support but if anything I am seeing that modding is more popular and accessible than ever before. It is one of the driving factors in the increasing popularity of Steam through the Steam Workshop, which dominates PC gaming. Modding and moddability is quickly becoming a key selling point too for an increasingly larger group of gamers, especially PC gamers. The indie movement is a key factor in driving this new expectation in gaming. The consumer is more and more becoming part of the development process and smart publishers use that to drive sales, and those who corner that off to enforce DLC are getting much less popular. It is also becoming more and more of a stretch to say that triple A publishers are actually producing better products, look at the Destiny reviews, expectations are unrealistically high and any kind of fault is getting a head-on assault from the press. Indie releases on the other hand keep surprising in a positive way, look at Divinity: OS, even though at its core those are never the games with stunning visuals and all those other things that do well in marketing.

Console gamers are slowly going to get served with the indie movement as well, with both Sony and MS supporting a platform that allows for moddability and lowering the barrier for developers to create something for their consoles. It is inevitable that the added (replay) value of modding will dawn on the console gamer too, and it will likely happen in this gen. Microsoft just bought Minecraft, for example. The funny thing about this is that the very thing that may get in the way of big publishers' sales is the thing MS and Sony need to keep their consoles competitive. Even today the number of exclusives is lacking and the PC offers a far more complete game library of recent titles.

So in conclusion I have a hard time believing a new Elder Scrolls title will ban modding altogether. Maybe it will be somewhat more limited, but even that is highly doubtful. Skyrim's popularity is largely based on its moddability and expansiveness for virtually every PC gamer.

I also have a hard time getting on your indie bus example. If anything the indie bus features the most dedicated and 'passionate' driver, has decent seating, and the driver keeps its passengers up to date on how far along the ride they are. And as a bonus many of its rides come at half price, too. So what if the bus lacked airconditioning, nobody cares anymore.


You seem to be wearing some heavy rose-tinted spectacles there. Two years ago I'd have been behind you, but that isn't the reality today.

For every single good Indie, there are a dozen pieces of crap that cash in on trends. If you'd like to tell me about Mojang, I'd like to show you half of the "WTF is" series by Total Biscuit. If you'd like to point out beautiful projects like Bastion, I'll point out games that use 8-bit graphics and a color palate that is 48 shades of brown. Perhaps you'd like to introduce me to the amazing story telling from things like Thomas Was Alone. I'd counter with a trip down Terraria lane (while I like Terraria, the story is dumb as a sign post).

The Indie titles that shine are brilliant. The Indie titles that bomb are swept under the rug as an experiment. Without accountability, Indie games have been allowed to be perceived as better than they objectively are. You can complain about generic shooter 80832, but you've objectively got to say that if its a AAA title chances are that it is mechanically sound. I cannot say the same thing about Indies.


As to making things easier, I can see that. The Source engine, Unity, and other tools are making it easy to fart out a game. It's easy to design a weapon called the kill-a-ma-jig, that deals 9999 base damage. At the same time, easier has led to a trend wherein anything coming out is of an acceptable quality, no matter how bad it is. Couple the supposed dedication of the modding community with an indie game that is early release, and you've got a game that will never finish. Developers rely on the community, that doesn't support the developers because they don't have a completed game.

As far as I'm concerned, modding shouldn't be necessary. You mod when you've had a full experience with a game, and want more. I mod Skyrim because it was amazing. I haven't sought out Binary Domain mods because after ten minutes I was done with that piece of crap, not even searching for a mod because the game wasn't worth the effort. Taking a look at my Steam Queue, out of every twenty games, only one supports modifications. That kind of presence is a statistical anomaly, not a valid trend. As far as Elder Scrolls not banning mods, are you forgetting something? Perhaps their very last release in the series? Perhaps the MMO that they locked all outside influence on because an online experience doesn't support player modifications at all? Maybe I'm remembering it differently, but that was an entirely new engine that was completely mod free, and built not to support modding. Bethesda's executives aren't foolish, and if you read EA's terms you forfeit the financial rights to any mod you produce, care of being able to use the piece of software. Modding is a rather legally murky mess, and the likelihood that the community has either the skills or the tools to mod is uncertain. A good developer, and by extension good games, don't rely on an unknown commodity as an integral part of their design.
 

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But, @lilhasselhoffer: I have to disagree a bit. You stated you mod Skyrim because it's amazing. Well, that's the main reason most PC users have continued to look forward to Elder Scrolls games. To mod them! I confess, I didn't do Arena or Daggerfall, so I don't know the extent of modding there, but Morrowwind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and hell, let's throw Fallout 3 in their, and FNV too. I'd say most PC users look forward to those games not to fix what might be wrong, but to make the game "theirs," whether through their own mods or using others', and to expand the world and its stories. I threw FNV in, because even though Bethesda Studios didn't do the game, Obsidian pretty much had to follow the Bethesda gameplan.

So, I still say Bethesda has happily sold the games instantly available to mod (or quickly thereafter), because they know that fans are eager to put their own stamp on them, giving them more sales. I don't think they rely on it to "fix" bad design.
 
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Just don't buy their shit games. Who needs petitions, let your wallet do the talking. My life is just fine by entirely ignoring their games. I have and still buy all those pre UPlay games that i don't yet own and that were actually very good, but i just don't bother with the new ones. Let them have their moronic client and their 30fps...

^^^^~This, exactly!~^^^^

I can't see buying into throttled software in any form.

Why are we buying such kick-ass GPUs and Screens if they aren't going to take advantage of the capabilities we have on hand?
It's what we want and the ones who give it to us will get our money.
 
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But, @lilhasselhoffer: I have to disagree a bit. You stated you mod Skyrim because it's amazing. Well, that's the main reason most PC users have continued to look forward to Elder Scrolls games. To mod them! I confess, I didn't do Arena or Daggerfall, so I don't know the extent of modding there, but Morrowwind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and hell, let's throw Fallout 3 in their, and FNV too. I'd say most PC users look forward to those games not to fix what might be wrong, but to make the game "theirs," whether through their own mods or using others', and to expand the world and its stories. I threw FNV in, because even though Bethesda Studios didn't do the game, Obsidian pretty much had to follow the Bethesda gameplan.

So, I still say Bethesda has happily sold the games instantly available to mod (or quickly thereafter), because they know that fans are eager to put their own stamp on them, giving them more sales. I don't think they rely on it to "fix" bad design.

I'll be frank, I like Skyrim. Knowing that, I have to ask myself a serious question. Would I still be playing Skyrim if all I had was the vanilla version and the expansions they officially released? My simple answer is no. Mods continue to support a good game. Bethesda built a recognition of quality and an experience by releasing good games. Assuming the Creative Assembly released the same exact game as Skyrim two months earlier they wouldn't have gotten the same recognition as Bethesda has. We, on the whole, tend to let the Bethesda blunders pass while remembering the good times.


Looping all this back to the original point, do you still play Batman: Arkham Asylum? How about the original Borderlands? Now what games in your Steam or Origin queue have less than 30% of the time on them that would be required for completion of the main campaigns? How about 40, 50, or even 60 percent? Now of those half finished games how many have mod support? How many will you never pick-up again?

A modding community doesn't insure that a game will last, and a lack of a mod system doesn't insure death. CoD proved that a game can change 0% between start and finish, and hook a player base for years at a time. Likewise, the Simcity (the new one) touted eventual modifications that fell on completely deaf ears. A good game plays as long as it needs to, has an over-arching objectively obtainable goals, and doesn't require player modifications to deliver this experience. Mods are dessert, while good gameplay and mechanics are the meat and vegetables that actually sustain the experience.



It seems as though Skyrim is a rather tricky point, so allow my final comment to be something I need you to answer for yourself. Bioshock is an amazing game. It improved upon everything that System Shock 2 did (curse you 90's design), and it was a complete experience. Presuming that we agree upon this point, I will ask a simple question. Does Bioshock fail because it was designed not to be modded, and because the official DLC amounted to a functionally insignificant difference when compared with the vanilla game? Now, keeping your previous answer in mind; would Minecraft be better if you picked it up today (having never before played it), or was it better three years ago with a dozen modifications that other users created to make a holistic experience? If this doesn't get you to review the nature of your opinions nothing I can say will, and I acquiesce to whatever your point is (because I have no hopes of altering it).
 

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Interesting points to ponder! And I agree with your general point, which if I got it correct, is that a game lasts because it is good, not because of mods or DLC's, etc. Which is probably why more people probably play System Shock 2 today than Bioshock (despite that being a pretty good game).
 

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To get back on the topic of Ubi and the "30 FPS Debacle"

Ubi has decided to delay The Crew so they can optimize it for 60 FPS on PC. Small victory! I am really looking forward to that game.
 
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