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Lockheed says makes breakthrough on fusion energy project

FordGT90Concept

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So basically you're arguing that there should be more govt funding of research. No argument here.
Only in fields that are too expensive for private research which basically encompasses only two fields: health research and space research. Fusion fits under space. Private industry doesn't need incentive to research the rest.

There's a ton of research going on all of the time that is never accounted for when compared to government funding for research. Case in point: Intel developing smaller fabs is all research and they don't get a dime for it from the government. They may get tax incentives for building in a specific place but they aren't getting paid to make circuits smaller. Another example is fast food chains expanding their line up of foods. They have to research what foods people want, design a means to mass produce it, and ensure their logistics system can handle it. They see virtually no government funds for this. Or how about GE designing more efficient turbine engines. The only way they get funds is because of a government contract to buy the engines, not because the government set aside research funds for it. As TheMailMan said, most of the research is going into projects that are crony at best, fraudulent at worst. The government is notoriously bad at delegating funds for research because it's based on political favors, not what American society requires.
 
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Uh, people are missing the big picture. If it can fit in the back up a truck then it can fit in a... wait for it... SPACE SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know eh? My first thought was 'one step closer to an impulse drive!' Engage!! :p
 
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Only in fields that are too expensive for private research which basically encompasses only two fields: health research and space research. Fusion fits under space. Private industry doesn't need incentive to research the rest.

There's a ton of research going on all of the time that is never accounted for when compared to government funding for research. Case in point: Intel developing smaller fabs is all research and they don't get a dime for it from the government. They may get tax incentives for building in a specific place but they aren't getting paid to make circuits smaller. Another example is fast food chains expanding their line up of foods. They have to research what foods people want, design a means to mass produce it, and ensure their logistics system can handle it. They see virtually no government funds for this. Or how about GE designing more efficient turbine engines. The only way they get funds is because of a government contract to buy the engines, not because the government set aside research funds for it. As TheMailMan said, most of the research is going into projects that are crony at best, fraudulent at worst. The government is notoriously bad at delegating funds for research because it's based on political favors, not what American society requires.
It's good to know that you have such a comprehensive knowledge of the state of research and what is needed. Good for you.
 
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Yeah, that sounds strange. I always thought that plasma was slipperier than snail slime. You squeeze it over here and it pops out in 6 different places. IIRC, torus shaped reactors keep the plasma flowing in a circle around the torus - I guess to create some momentum/inertia the plasma would have to overcome to break containment. Dynamically shaping the field in response to changes in the plasma sounds like a very neat trick if they can pull it off.

That's what is so cool about the very tech we get hot about, sensors, computing speed and computing power. Maybe that's the key to all this. Traditional fusion has dabbled with static containment fields, or ones that don't react fast enough!
 
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I worked at Rockwell International and Boeing Aerospace for a combined 20 years. (retired from Boeing) There is a lot of research and development going on in the private sector, all of the time.
I was witness to a lot of it and it was spectacular to see.
All of the large corporations have Labs and do a lot of studies too.

Imagine taking the rocket engine out of an Aircraft's Missile and throwing it away, ~then~ ending up with an (engine-less) missile that is twice as fast and has twice the range. They did things like that using some simple ideas and taking chances on them.

Also, The US Government will open a R&D bid session describing what it wants in the way of new technology or equipment. This is usually stuff that doesn't yet exist.
Manufacturers then put their thinking caps on and come up with ideas to give it to them.
Based on the responses from different companies, the government awards money to one, or more companies to develop their ideas.
This happens all of the time. Some of it is secret.

Years earlier, I was in the US Army and worked for the Combat Developments Experimentation Command. (at Hunter Liggett, California and then in Ft. Greely, Alaska)
I got to see the development of laser aided targeting and computer aided aiming for pilots. Some private contractors were involved with these ideas.
 

TheMailMan78

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Only in fields that are too expensive for private research which basically encompasses only two fields: health research and space research. Fusion fits under space. Private industry doesn't need incentive to research the rest.

There's a ton of research going on all of the time that is never accounted for when compared to government funding for research. Case in point: Intel developing smaller fabs is all research and they don't get a dime for it from the government. They may get tax incentives for building in a specific place but they aren't getting paid to make circuits smaller. Another example is fast food chains expanding their line up of foods. They have to research what foods people want, design a means to mass produce it, and ensure their logistics system can handle it. They see virtually no government funds for this. Or how about GE designing more efficient turbine engines. The only way they get funds is because of a government contract to buy the engines, not because the government set aside research funds for it. As TheMailMan said, most of the research is going into projects that are crony at best, fraudulent at worst. The government is notoriously bad at delegating funds for research because it's based on political favors, not what American society requires.
Doesn't really matter how the government defines "R&D" and funding. Its all what how much "K Street" can graft off the top. The F-35 is a prime example.

As for the fusion reactor it will go to the highest bidder in which ever crooked agency needs perpetual drones to spy on people not paying their taxes to K street.........errr the "Government".
 
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I worked at Rockwell International and Boeing Aerospace for a combined 20 years. (retired from Boeing) There is a lot of research and development going on in the private sector, all of the time.
I was witness to a lot of it and it was spectacular to see.
All of the large corporations have Labs and do a lot of studies too.

Imagine taking the rocket engine out of an Aircraft's Missile and throwing it away, ~then~ ending up with an (engine-less) missile that is twice as fast and has twice the range. They did things like that using some simple ideas and taking chances on them.

Also, The US Government will open a R&D bid session describing what it wants in the way of new technology or equipment. This is usually stuff that doesn't yet exist.
Manufacturers then put their thinking caps on and come up with ideas to give it to them.
Based on the responses from different companies, the government awards money to one, or more companies to develop their ideas.
This happens all of the time. Some of it is secret.

Years earlier, I was in the US Army and worked for the Combat Developments Experimentation Command. (at Hunter Liggett, California and then in Ft. Greely, Alaska)
I got to see the development of laser aided targeting and computer aided aiming for pilots. Some private contractors were involved with these ideas.
I was talking about basic research. Things like the human genome project which, though it was started by the govt and laid much of the groundwork in terms of how best to go about it, it was Venter's company that actually completed it - ahead of schedule. So it's not like I'm saying there's no place for private research or that companies don't do it. The article I linked to shows that about half of basic research is private. But that probably includes a lot of privately funded charities and institutes.

The problem is that most companies want to see practical results from their research. Some, like IBM might do it just because it's the right thing to do, but they're the exception not the rule. And when times are tight, research is the first thing to get cut - both govt and private. There's also the fact that govt funded research has to be public domain, so it adds to our knowledge base. Corporate funded research may not get published at all since they own the IP.
 

FordGT90Concept

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The article I linked to shows that about half of basic research is private.
That only includes projects that have some public funding (read: vast minority). Government doesn't have access to any data on entirely privately funded R&D which comprises of the lion's share of R&D spending. Case in point: your graph shows federal spending of about $66 billion per year on R&D. The top 10 semiductor companies alone spent $28 billion on R&D in 2013 (Intel being #1, of course, at over $10 billion). The government is a tiny fish in a huge R&D pond.

The things the government needs to research are projects that private industry sees no potential profit in. A prime example of this is an Ebola vaccine. Private companies won't waste resources on it until after there is an epidemic (read: lots of potential customers). Public funding changes that calculation leading to preemptive research.

Coming back to the topic: everyone knows fusion will pay off but the unknown factor is not knowing how much it will cost before the pay off comes. Lockheed has apparently committed to paying that cost (or at least recruiting others to share the cost) because their government contracts dry up if they don't innovate. Fusion is pretty much the pinnacle of innovation for the time being because it solves many, many problems we're facing today.
 
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The things the government needs to research are projects that private industry sees no potential profit in. A prime example of this is an Ebola vaccine. Private companies won't waste resources on it until after there is an epidemic (read: lots of potential customers). Public funding changes that calculation leading to preemptive research.
Exactly. Which has been the point I've been trying to make. Which basically contradicts your previous statement.
The only time a government organization got close was the Manhattan Project (and similar all-in projects) and there's two features of projects that get results: 1) secrecy (most government leaders know nothing about it so they can't politicize it) and 2) they're ran like a free enterprise business in that they are objective oriented. The fact is, a second Manhattan Project will never happen because there will never be another Franklin D. Roosevelt. He was practically a dictator ("wartime president") for 3 going on 4 terms. Congress gave him what he asked for the most part and that allowed the Manhattan Project to happen.
Basic research is what makes practical R&D possible. Even things as seemingly irrelevant to everyday life like astronomy and astrophysics can and do lead to discoveries that eventually have practical benefits.
 

FordGT90Concept

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I was replying to this statement:
Lockheed is one of the most innovative companies in the world. There isn't a single government entity in the WORLD that can compete with their kind of innovation. They are the definition of what a free market can do.
The Manhattan project cost $2 billion dollars from 1939 to 1945 in 1945 dollars which calculates to $26.4 billion in today's dollars. By contrast, we've only spent $22.4 billion dollars from 1953 to 2012 on fusion which will cost a lot more than fission due to its nature. Fusion research was politicized by the gas & oil industry which is why the federal government is putting virtually nothing into it today.

Obviously we don't know how much Lockheed has spent on fusion but I guarantee you it was a lot more than the federal government did in the last decade.


Even things as seemingly irrelevant to everyday life like astronomy and astrophysics can and do lead to discoveries that eventually have practical benefits.
That's a stretch. If you want practical benefits from those fields of study, you're better off pumping it into space research (NASA/DARPA). Going there tells us a whole lot more than a telescope can not to mention all of the breakthroughs that are required just to make it happen.


Edit: Example of research fraud that like came out of NIH's R&D budget.
 
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I don't think there's any reasonable way to turn fusion into space propulsion. It could be used to produce power for electrical systems on ships/satellites/probes though. Lockheed never mentioned what the refueling process is like however (constantly needs more fuel? can be fueled once and last for x length of time? is there a way to slow and accelerate the reaction? and so on).

that concept warp drive of NASA's that allowed minor space propulsion on only electricity paired with this would work pretty well.
 
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