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Gamergate

FordGT90Concept

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http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/19/opinion/weinberger-gamergate/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7

I can't really summarize it but, as the article says, here's the facts that launched it:
CNN said:
Zoe Quinn is one of the creators of "Depression Quest," an award-winning indie game released in 2013 that, unlike the typical run-and-gun games, puts the player in the text-based shoes of a depressed teenager. About a month ago, an ex-boyfriend claimed the game had gotten a particular good review on a gaming news site only because (the angry ex-boyfriend claimed) Quinn had had sex with the reviewer to further her career -- which Quinn denies. Even though the journalist hadn't actually written a review, and the gaming news site found no wrongdoing, this triggered an avalanche of attacks on Quinn's ethics from some of the Internet's danker forums, including threats of rape and murder.

The fury directed at women went beyond Quinn and beyond the Web. In the most visible episode so far, a few days ago Anita Sarkeesian, who in August had released a video about the use and abuse of women in games, canceled a scheduled talk at Utah State University after the school received emails threatening to murder people at the event. Because of the state's open-carry law, the university refused to ban students from carrying guns into the event.
There's a lot of links in the article that explain each part further.


Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy
 
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I'm a woman and I hate SJWs. They make us look bad and DO NOT FURTHER THE CAUSE!!! THEY ONLY MAKE PEOPLE HATE FEMALES MORE!!!
 
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I'm all for equal rights and even equality in terms of portrayal in video games, BUT I'm also in favour of everybody is allowed to have an opinion, regardless of whether it agrees with your own or not. I think those silly children threatening various women in the game industry are the vocal minority, and most of them are the same old kids that send everyone else death threats because they have nothing better to do with their lives and are generally crappy human beings. However I must also say that a few things said about gamers by these women was a bit hypocritical, as they made some rather blanket statements about gamers which are very very wrong.

As for gamergate itself, it only became such a mess because of image boards like 4chan deciding to make thousands of fake accounts and pushing their chaotic agenda. This could have ended a week after it started, instead both sides of the debate decided to make it worse. It is worth noting a lot of these claims against the women in these articles are entirely false and horribly misquoted, but I for one would like this issue over and done with. Gun threats at a school because you dislike one woman is childish and people like that should probably be incarcerated regardless of whether the threat was meaningful. Waste of human resources.
 

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I'm a woman and I hate SJWs. They make us look bad and DO NOT FURTHER THE CAUSE!!! THEY ONLY MAKE PEOPLE HATE FEMALES MORE!!!

What's an SJW? I figure the 'W' stands for 'woman'.
 
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Social Justice Warrior - people who claim to be doing something for someone elses good, whether they want it or not.


Feminazis, anti vacciners, pro-lifers, etc etc.
 

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I look at it from the perspective that games are art and art is whatever the artist wants it to be.

I think Quinn was subjected to slander and she should have put an end to it by taking the ex to court. By not doing so, the rumor mills churned producing the slew of garbage that followed including extraordinarily excessive focus on what she said. That ultimately lead to the threats. Others, like Anita Sarkeesian, stirred the pot roping them into the controversy. I can't really see it ever ending.

Here's the video that drug Sarkeesian into Gamergate:
What I find funny is that all of these things she talks about exist in the real world. Which came first? Yes, yes, the crux of the argument she is trying to make is that this stuff doesn't need to be in games and I agree. At the same time, much like the real world, I ignore this stuff and go about my virtual business. The only game I can definitively say crossed a line with me was Grand Theft Auto: Vice City where to get 100% completion rating, you would literally have to get a 10 minute long lap dance. That deserves criticism, much criticism, because it isn't an ambient/environmental feature of the game. Edit: She gave an another blatant example of crossing the line in Red Dead Redemption: to get the "Dastardly" achievement, one has to take a woman hostage, put her on a rail, and wait until a train comes killing her.

I find myself agreeing more than disagreeing watching that video. I've played most of the games she cites and recall the situations in the videos. When you see them all smashed together like that, I can't help but feel that it is excessive. At the same time, I know you're seeing less than 1% of each title she references.

I think I see a compromise. If game developers are going to highly sexualize women, they need to take the Mass Effect route and require the player to develop a relationship. Strip clubs and ladies of the night should be stripped from game design unless it is critical to the game. An example of one such case, I would argue, is in the Saboteur where your "house" for lack of a better term, was a brothel inside Nazi controlled territory. Even though that was a good concept from a writing perspective, it was over sexualized in design. In terms of a lot of the depictions she used, game developers should add some kind of defense mechanism. For example, trying to take a woman hostage, the woman could respond by macing, slapping, pulling a concealed pistol or knife, or even pushing a panic button on a cell phone instantly giving the player high wanted status. These things are pretty easy to implement.

And then she loses me again when she talks about the ability to harm women in open-world games. Game designers could make women not intractable in that way like most already do with children but open-world games, intrinsically, are designed from the perspective of freedom and player choice. To deny those options is to shackle the player and that's not a good thing either. Games can address this issue by making it react to the player. Other NPCs can frown on the player's actions or blatantly punish it.

After that, she argues that developers incentivize killing women when, in all of the games depicted, the same incentive exists for killing men too.

It appears to me like the most blatant offenses originate from Rockstar. The solution to that problem is simple: hire women on to the development staff and ask them if something crosses the line.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, she completely mischaracterizes women in Hitman: Absolution calling them "play things" among other things (22 minutes in). No, their role is the same as most other NPCs in the game and that is to prevent you from either entering an area or to force you to hide/fit in while there. No more, no less. She actually uses the word "arousal." If you get aroused knocking out an NPC and hiding the body, you're messed in the head.
 
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I really don't understand this issue. How are people playing games more susceptible to "hidden" messages than people watching movies or tv shows? It's like Ford said, games are just another medium, an art form, just like movies, music etc. If someone wants to make a game about men beating up defenseless women, let him/her do that and if people don't like it you can just give the game bad reviews. Isn't this whole freedom of speech thing supposed to work? It's either this or just make EVERY form of art to be politically correct and we'll live our boring little lives without ever crossing the line. I like my violence in games because it's there and not in my everyday life (I know this wasn't about violence but I can't relate to the main subject).
 
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I can't really see it ever ending.

Do you know why?. People like you (no offence) give them too much attention. That is all they need and you give them in walls.
 
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Do you know why?. People like you (no offence) give them too much attention. That is all they need and you give them in walls.

I'm happy for constructive discussion to exist on the subject here. The existence of it is not giving them too much attention, the thousands of users making fake accounts and spamming various twitter threads and image board forums are causing the mass amount of attention that it's getting. I recall somewhere that an extremely high percentage of comments on twitter were largely from fake accounts that had only had post history with regards to gamergate.
 

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I really don't understand this issue.
The portrayal of women in some games is overly sexualized and/or objectified. If you look around (specifically at Grand Theft Auto III and newer), it's nigh impossible to argue it isn't. Having seen most of it first hand, I think the request to dial it down is to be expected. I'm not talking about political correctness here; I'm talking about showing some respect.
 
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The portrayal of women in some games is overly sexualized and/or objectified. If you look around (specifically at Grand Theft Auto III and newer), it's nigh impossible to argue it isn't. Having seen most of it first hand, I think the request to dial it down is almost to be expected. I'm not talking about political correctness here; I'm talking about showing some respect.
There are also hundreds of thousands of porn categories and subcategories far worse in that subject, what should be done about that?
 

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I think sexy firemen calendars are over sexualised and lacking representation of females, so blahblah get rid of them.


I get that there needs to be a line drawn, but for gods sake can people act like adults about it?
 
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I think sexy firemen calendars are over sexualised and lacking representation of females, so blahblah get rid of them.

There are male and female calendars, therefore equality has been reached. :laugh:

I get that there needs to be a line drawn, but for gods sake can people act like adults about it?

Most gamers and developers can act like adults, but like I said, the vocal minority cannot, and that's all that's seen and heard. This is the primary cause of the issue.

There are also hundreds of thousands of porn categories and subcategories far worse in that subject, what should be done about that?

Men and women are represented in those types of media in equal light, it's just the only categories you're aware of limit the scope of what most people think about it, and people make generalisations that it's only for men (which it certainly is not). There are categories for every gender and sexual preference, so it's possibly one of the few mediums which has a decent amount of equality actually.
 

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There are also hundreds of thousands of porn categories and subcategories far worse in that subject, what should be done about that?
Those aren't mainstream games and the purpose of playing those games is expressly for sexual reasons. Most people play Grand Theft Auto for the narrative and gameplay, not for how they portray women. Developers should take that into account when crafting it. Yes, I can understand the need for ladies of the night and brothels to make red light districts (which may be important to the narrative) come alive but allowing players to get lap dances is going too far, for example. It is wholly unnecessary. Those resources could certainly be better utilized on something else.
 
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and when i played saints row i played as a woman with big tits who murdered men with a dildo.


there IS equality in games, its just that this minority pick and choose their examples.
 
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but allowing players to get lap dances is going too far, for example. It is wholly unnecessary.
Why? What would they achieve if they would remove this and everything else that you deem offensive towards women? I still see a lot of movies that contain such scenes, few people seem to care though, so what is the end result?
 

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Why? What would they achieve if they would remove this and everything else that you deem offensive towards women? I still see a lot of movies that contain such scenes, few people seem to care though, so what is the end result?

it makes them special. vegan, gluten free, vegetarian, transgender (the ones who dont do surgery) people who say they're bi when they aren't - there is a social trend that the underdog is the 'good guy', the minority is in the right.

So people invent the smallest minority and act really loud about how the big guy is screwing over the little guy, and eventually it gains enough traction that they lose interest and move on to the next minority issue.

"you cant use that word, it offends me and me exclusively, so its aimed just at me!" kind of attitude.
 
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it makes them special. vegan, gluten free, vegetarian, transgender (the ones who dont do surgery) people who say they're bi when they aren't - there is a social trend that the underdog is the 'good guy', the minority is in the right.

So people invent the smallest minority and act really loud about how the big guy is screwing over the little guy, and eventually it gains enough traction that they lose interest and move on to the next minority issue.

"you cant use that word, it offends me and me exclusively, so its aimed just at me!" kind of attitude.

This is bordering on the issue. There are non-SJW's out there who find a very small amount of things unacceptable, and they complain, politely. The real problem comes from the hardcore-zealous-SJW's who scream and shout, which then brings out the internet trolls from their slumber who also scream and shout, and then it becomes a scream-and-shout-fest and people start slinging faeces across the room while everyone else shakes their head and debates in an adult fashion. Both sides have valid points, but both sides have also got totally invalid points, and neither is willing to deal with it graciously.
 

FordGT90Concept

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and when i played saints row i played as a woman with big tits who murdered men with a dildo.


there IS equality in games, its just that this minority pick and choose their examples.
That's why I singled out GTA. You cannot play as a woman and the game demands you do highly sexual things even if you don't particularly want to. For example, I dread that lap dance portion of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City because if someone walks into the room and sees it, I'll have to give a long, tedious explanation how I have to do this in order to complete the game. I doubt they would believe me and the computer would get improperly turned off.

Speaking of Saints Row, I played SR4 once as a female and once as a male and it was totally worth it just to experience the different reactions I had during the stripper pole scene. I won't elaborate but I'm sure -KarL- has a story to tell with that one (he was playing co-op with me when it happened).

Why? What would they achieve if they would remove this and everything else that you deem offensive towards women? I still see a lot of movies that contain such scenes, few people seem to care though, so what is the end result?
Less bad press, potentially more women may give the game a try, they would save some precious development time that could be better spent on something else, and the list goes on. I'm not talking about who feels offended and who doesn't because everyone has a right to be offended about any and everything.

The result is better judgment. Developers should use the test I gave above: if a specific scene was showing on the game you were developing and your mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend walked in and saw it, how disgusted would they be by it? Use that to gauge where the line should be drawn for mainstream games.
 
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That's why I singled out GTA. You cannot play as a woman and the game demands you do highly sexual things even if you don't particularly want to. For example, I dread that lap dance portion of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City because if someone walks into the room and sees it, I'll have to give a long, tedious explanation how I have to do this in order to complete the game. I doubt they would believe me and the computer would get improperly turned off.

Speaking of Saints Row, I played SR4 once as a female and once as a male and it was totally worth it just to experience the different reactions I had during the stripper pole scene. I won't elaborate but I'm sure -KarL- has a story to tell with that one (he was playing co-op with me when it happened).


Less bad press, potentially more women may give the game a try, they would save some precious development time that could be better spent on something else, and the list goes on. I'm not talking about who feels offended and who doesn't because everyone has a right to be offended about any and everything. The result is better judgment. Developers should use the test I gave above: if a specific scene was showing on the game you were developing and your mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend walked in and saw it, how disgusted would they be by it? Use that to gauge where the line should be drawn for mainstream games.
Mainstream or not, this is supposed to be an 18+ game, so what if your mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend is disgusted by it, The Notebook disgusts me too but I still watched it with my girlfriend, I don't judge her for that. I agree with the part in which the game forces me to go through said scene in order to advance the story but in a way, this could also be in a movie, so the argument is still invalid.
 

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It should be noted that Sarkeesian didn't reference Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas's "hot coffee" fiasco (maybe did in the next segment but I digress). The reason for this may be that GTASA did have a romancing system and "hot coffee" was your reward for wooing the virtual woman. Sure, "hot coffee" how it appears in the game may offend people but it doesn't offend most people because they put some effort into it. And I guess that is the morale of the story: if the developer isn't going to put the effort into the romance portion of it then they should probably just omit it completely. Case in point: few men and women alike that have experience the romance options in the Mass Effect series will object to the way it was done. Some may object to the scantily clad dancers in bars throughout the game but I would not argue they should be removed because they are ambient/environmental and completely ignorable.


Mainstream or not, this is supposed to be an 18+ game, so what if your mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend is disgusted by it, The Notebook disgusts me too but I still watched it with my girlfriend, I don't judge her for that. I agree with the part in which the game forces me to go through said scene in order to advance the story but in a way, this could also be in a movie, so the argument is still invalid.
All GTA games are ESRB Mature which is 17+...not that it really matters.

Movies don't have quick-time events that force you to participate. Your only option is to quit and considering the price of admission to a game compared to a movie, that's not something most gamers will do. They'll suffer through it like the warriors they are.

What is invalid about asking predominantly male game developers to show some respect towards women in their works?
 
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Gamergate isn't actually about women or harassment. It's about stopping SJW influenced game journalists from breaking gaming.
 

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@Ruyki: So you don't think any games have ever gone too far?
 
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