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Windows Update drivers bricking USB serial chips beloved of hardware hackers

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As I said, if there is a gross difference in price, you're starting to make a valid point but as I understand it, that wasn't the case here. My understanding is that the use of counterfeits didn't save manufacturers a great deal of money, but if I'm wrong about that, ok.

Even in that case though, as I said above, you still have the issue of illegal destruction of property. No one will contest that FTDI has the right to protect their IP. What I don't believe they have the right to do however is destroy products that happen to infringe on that IP.
In that way its like saying I should be able to load the software from a Ferrari on my GMC van, since its a vehicle and both are limited to the speed limit, why can't I? If I do and it breaks my van can I sue Ferrari?

I could flash it back to GMC perhaps, and it may take some doing, and it is just software after all....
 
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In that way its like saying I should be able to load the software from a Ferrari on my GMC van, since its a vehicle and both are limited to the speed limit, why can't I? If I do and it breaks my van can I sue Ferrari?

I could flash it back to GMC perhaps, and it may take some doing, and it is just software after all....
No because Ferrari didn't deliberately write their software to brick GMC vehicles. That's the difference.

Granted, it's still an open question as to whether or not what FTDI did can be considered deliberate in one sense or the other. But if it is, it would be more like GMC issuing an update that deliberately made cars not using all OEM GMC parts useless.
 
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No, its like GMC writing code that if you replace the ECU with one that doesn't have working ABS it won't let it start. If you replace the ECU with a good one from GMC, or write your own damn software it will work fine.

Same as I have been screwed by a counterfeit chip, I would gladly have killed it and sent it in for an RMA and gotten a good one had I known. These chips may not have enough buffer to work at high speed as advertised.
 

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BTW, do we know if it was intentional or not yet? That is sort of important to the argument.
 
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No, its like GMC writing code that if you replace the ECU with one that doesn't have working ABS it won't let it start. If you replace the ECU with a good one from GMC, or write your own damn software it will work fine.

Same as I have been screwed by a counterfeit chip, I would gladly have killed it and sent it in for an RMA and gotten a good one had I known. These chips may not have enough buffer to work at high speed as advertised.
OK, let's take your example, but with one significant change - the cost of repairing the issue costs more than the car itself. That's the situation that most users will be in right? So is GMC justified in sending out code that deliberately bricks all of those vehicles? Uh, no. I very seriously doubt that - especially if the user bought the ECU in good faith w/o realizing that he was buying an inferior product.
 
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BTW, do we know if it was intentional or not yet? That is sort of important to the argument.
Very true. However given the fact that the drivers are actively reseting the PID, I'm not sure how FTDI is going to argue that it was NOT intentional.
 
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So funny how people start to rage over FTDI, but forget that they are rightfully protecting their IP. If your device that includes this controller failed because of this, go rage at the vendor who used the knockoff to save few bucks and make more profit. But no, it's FTDI's fault. You people are weird...
 
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Just to be clear, I don't care one way or the other. I'm just trying to provide some perspective. I was a lawyer in another life a few decades ago. I only practiced for a few years before deciding I hated it too much to ever do it for a living but one thing you do have to give law schools credit for, if they're any good, is that they teach to how to look at things from an unbiased legal perspective. The unbiased part might sound strange since our system in the US and most common law countries is adversarial. But what that really means is that you never know which side of a case you're going to be on so you have to be able to see both sides. You also learn to think the way judges do so that you can present a case in a way that will persuade them. That means looking at the big picture and all of the parties that could be affected by a given ruling.

I'm not saying I know how things will go down with FTDI though. All I'm saying is that's it's not as clear cut as some have made it out to be. If you happen to be sympathetic to people want to protect their intellectual property, you're going to tend to side with FTDI. If you're more consumer oriented, you're probably going to side against them. The point is to be able to see all of the sides and all of the potential issues.
 

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I think weve beat this topic to death, In the end FTDI had every right to protect IP, manufacturers using clone knock off chips in their products are wrong, end of story, it was never open source
 

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In that case, the end users claim would be with the counterfeiter not FTDI.
The counterfeiter didn't brick the product, FTDI did. FTDI will have to do what they should have done in the first place: go after the manufacturers. End users have zero responsibility to pursue the counterfeiters because the counterfeiters delivered on their end of the deal (a knock off FTDI chip).
 
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The counterfeiter didn't brick the product, FTDI did. FTDI will have to do what they should have done in the first place: go after the manufacturers. End users have zero responsibility to pursue the counterfeiters because the counterfeiters delivered on their end of the deal (a knock off FTDI chip).
No, the counterfeiters illegally used FTDI's driver. It may have been without the knowledge of the end users, but the counterfeiters knew they were doing wrong. The end user bought a counterfeit product, that isn't FTDI's fault.

If I buy an knock-off Chinese laptop with a pirated copy of Windows on it, I don't blame Microsoft when Windows installs an update that locks the computer so I can't boot it anymore.

And the fact is, as an end user, if I buy a product made and sold by XYZ company. And my product stops working for any reason, I'm going after XYZ company.
 
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No, the counterfeiters illegally used FTDI's driver. It may have been without the knowledge of the end users, but the counterfeiters knew they were doing wrong. The end user bought a counterfeit product, that isn't FTDI's fault.

If I buy an knock-off Chinese laptop with a pirated copy of Windows on it, I don't blame Microsoft when Windows installs an update that locks the computer so I can't boot it anymore.
Knowledge has been dropped. Here is lies the threads end.
 
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If I buy an knock-off Chinese laptop with a pirated copy of Windows on it, I don't blame Microsoft when Windows installs an update that locks the computer so I can't boot it anymore.
Except that the update doesn't brick the laptop so that you can never use it again unless you get a technician to fiddle with the firmware. So that's really not an apposite example. It would be more like a situation where Microsoft created an update that deliberately made the laptop unusable even after a reinstall. For example if they deliberately corrupted the bios just because you had an illegal copy of the OS. I'm not sure how one can't see the difference between these two situations.

By changing the PID, FTDI seems to have responded in the most radical and destructive way possible. Maybe it will turn out that changing the PID was somehow necessary for the driver update, but that pretty hard to imagine. If that's the case though, then maybe they can argue that incapacitating counterfeit chips was unavoidable and therefore their action shouldn't be considered intentional. Personally I think that will be a difficult argument to make, but it might give them some semblance of a defense.
 

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Except that the update doesn't brick the laptop so that you can never use it again unless you get a technician to fiddle with the firmware. So that's really not an apposite example. It would be more like a situation where Microsoft created an update that deliberately made the laptop unusable even after a reinstall. For example if they deliberately corrupted the bios just because you had an illegal copy of the OS. I'm not sure how one can't see the difference between these two situations.

By changing the PID, FTDI seems to have responded in the most radical and destructive way possible. Maybe it will turn out that changing the PID was somehow necessary for the driver update, but that pretty hard to imagine. If that's the case though, then maybe they can argue that incapacitating counterfeit chips was unavoidable and therefore their action shouldn't be considered intentional. Personally I think that will be a difficult argument to make, but it might give them some semblance of a defense.

That was exactly the situation I was describing. Microsoft releasing an update that makes the laptop unable to boot, period. No able to install Linux, not able to install Windows, nothing. The laptop becomes useless. I go after the person/company that sold me the laptop, not Microsoft. It isn't Microsoft's fault that I was using their software illegally.

And again, people are jumping to the conclusion that this is a deliberate action on FTDI's part. Why would they provide the tool to fix the issue if the intended to permanently break counterfeit chips? And why would that tool have been out for really long time. The tool has been around so long it actually replaced another tool that replaced another tool... And I'm not just talking about 3 different versions of the same program. They released a reprogramming tool, released several versions of that tool, then release a completely new program, released several versions of that, then release a completely new program again and have released several versions of that.

I have this feeling that this problem has happened in the past, on a smaller scale. Now it has hit a large number of counterfeit devices and people are freaking out and placing blame in the wrong place. Like others in the thread have already pointed out, the counterfeit chips behave differently than the real chip. So there is a good chance the counterfeit chips simply aren't compatible with the driver and this is the outcome.

The entire situation comes down to the fact that you shouldn't be using drivers on hardware they weren't intended for, period. Bad things can happen.
 
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That was exactly the situation I was describing. Microsoft releasing an update that makes the laptop unable to boot, period. No able to install Linux, not able to install Windows, nothing. The laptop becomes useless. I go after the person/company that sold me the laptop, not Microsoft. It isn't Microsoft's fault that I was using their software illegally.

And again, people are jumping to the conclusion that this is a deliberate action on FTDI's part. Why would they provide the tool to fix the issue if the intended to permanently break counterfeit chips? And why would that tool have been out for really long time. The tool has been around so long it actually replaced another tool that replaced another tool... And I'm not just talking about 3 different versions of the same program. They released a reprogramming tool, released several versions of that tool, then release a completely new program, released several versions of that, then release a completely new program again and have released several versions of that.

I have this feeling that this problem has happened in the past, on a smaller scale. Now it has hit a large number of counterfeit devices and people are freaking out and placing blame in the wrong place. Like others in the thread have already pointed out, the counterfeit chips behave differently than the real chip. So there is a good chance the counterfeit chips simply aren't compatible with the driver and this is the outcome.

The entire situation comes down to the fact that you shouldn't be using drivers on hardware they weren't intended for, period. Bad things can happen.
So. If Microsoft deliberately . . . intentionally borked the bios of every machine running an unlicensed version of their software, you think that Microsoft wouldn't be liable? Do you actually believe that or are you only taking that position because the logic doesn't really give you any choice? I haven't studied the law in a very long time, but I feel pretty confident saying that such wanton destruction simply in an attempt to enforce intellectual property rights wouldn't be tolerated by any court in any jurisdiction in the developed world.

As for whether or not FTDI's actions in disabling bogus chips was intentional or not, you're absolutely right. No one should jump to any conclusions on that. Given the explanation in the article, it's hard to see how it wasn't intentional or at the very least couldn't have been a reasonably foreseeable consequence, but FTDI should certainly be given the benefit of the doubt until such time as the facts prove otherwise.

In terms of providing a tool to reverse the problem, you can look at that a couple of different ways. One is as a genuine attempt to fix an unintended consequence of the update. But if you're a bit more cynical, you can view it as a fairly disingenuous attempt to deflect suspicion. After all, they know that most users won't have the technical sophistication to use the tool. In fact, I'm sure a large percentage will never even find out why their devices suddenly stopped working and will just replace them. So sure, they're providing a tool to fix the problem but they know full well that a significant percentage of devices using bogus chips will simply be replaced.
 

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No, the counterfeiters illegally used FTDI's driver.
Pretty sure there's no laws on the books for that one.

The end user bought a counterfeit product, that isn't FTDI's fault.
They were unaware it was counterfeit.

And the fact is, as an end user, if I buy a product made and sold by XYZ company. And my product stops working for any reason, I'm going after XYZ company.
Indeed and they should be pursued but FTDI went too far so they are culpable as well (hence class-action).

By changing the PID, FTDI seems to have responded in the most radical and destructive way possible. Maybe it will turn out that changing the PID was somehow necessary for the driver update, but that pretty hard to imagine. If that's the case though, then maybe they can argue that incapacitating counterfeit chips was unavoidable and therefore their action shouldn't be considered intentional. Personally I think that will be a difficult argument to make, but it might give them some semblance of a defense.
PCI vendor and device IDs are never supposed to be changed (they are supposed to be read-only; the fact it isn't is cause for concern). This was no accident.
 
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Pretty sure there's no laws on the books for that one.
It's copyrighted software. You have to abide by the EULA, it states in the EULA not to use it on non-FTDI hardware. So there is in fact a law on the books for that one.

They were unaware it was counterfeit.
Doesn't change the fact that it isn't FTDI's fault. It is the counterfeiter's fault, and the end user's claim is entirely with the counterfeiter.

Indeed and they should be pursued but FTDI went too far so they are culpable as well (hence class-action).
No they didn't go too far, they can not be responsible for improper use of their software on hardware it doesn't support. Even if they write the software to break the hardware, they are no liable because you shouldn't be using the software with the counterfeit hardware in the first place. Yes, it sucks for the end user, they got scammed by counterfeiters, but they have no precedent to go after FTDI. Their claim is entire with the counterfeiters that sold them the illegal hardware. And you also seem to forget that the hardware itself is illegal. What is the lawsuit going to state? I used this software illegally on this illegal hardware, and it broke, now I want the company that created the software to pay? Do you realize how idiotic that sounds and how fast that lawsuit would be laughed out of court?

Even if the End User makes the argument they didn't know the hardware was illegal and the software was being used in an illegal way when they bought the product, they do know now. So the argument in court would still be the same, they used illegal software on illegal hardware and it broke.

PCI vendor and device IDs are never supposed to be changed (they are supposed to be read-only; the fact it isn't is cause for concern). This was no accident.
Why are the PID's changeable then? Is it not possible that the PID's aren't changeable on the real parts, but are on the counterfeits(probably so the counterfeiters can easily change the PID to make the chip look like multiple different parts), and the driver is sending a command that it doesn't even know will have the effect of changing the PID because the PID can't be changed on a real part, so FTDI never even considered that the command might trigger a PID change?
 
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No they didn't go too far, they can not be responsible for improper use of their software on hardware it doesn't support. Even if they write the software to break the hardware, they are no liable because you shouldn't be using the software with the counterfeit hardware in the first place. Yes, it sucks for the end user, they got scammed by counterfeiters, but they have no precedent to go after FTDI. Their claim is entire with the counterfeiters that sold them the illegal hardware. And you also seem to forget that the hardware itself is illegal. What is the lawsuit going to state? I used this software illegally on this illegal hardware, and it broke, now I want the company that created the software to pay? Do you realize how idiotic that sounds and how fast that lawsuit would be laughed out of court?
I think you're conflating different parties in the chain that need to be kept separate. My impression is that most end users buy devices that have the FTDI chip as a component rather than buying the FTDI chip directly. If that's how things work, then what you're essentially saying is that everytime I buy a piece of electronics, I'm responsible for checking to see if the the manufacturer used legitimately sourced parts. That's absurd.

So the situation is that you have good faith buyers of devices that happen to incorporate a chip that is emulates/duplicates the functionality of the FTDI chip but can't reasonably be expected to realize that. They then go about using drivers that should work with their device but find that instead, it makes it unusable. Since you can't expect the consumer to verify the authenticity of every component in every device they buy, you can't therefore try to shift the blame to them.

And btw, it appears that FTDI does now admit that what they did was intentional but "necessary" - http://www.zdnet.com/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update-7000035019/
 

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It's copyrighted software. You have to abide by the EULA, it states in the EULA not to use it on non-FTDI hardware. So there is in fact a law on the books for that one.
They're not copying the software. All they're doing is mimicking the vendor and device IDs so Windows Update grabs the FTDI driver for it. Microsoft is pushing the update and it, like the people that bought counterfeit devices, have no way of knowing it is "non-FTDI hadware." EULAs do not have the power of law.

Doesn't change the fact that it isn't FTDI's fault. It is the counterfeiter's fault, and the end user's claim is entirely with the counterfeiter.
The devices would still be working if FTDI didn't intentionally brick them. That's all on FTDI.

Why are the PID's changeable then? Is it not possible that the PID's aren't changeable on the real parts, but are on the counterfeits(probably so the counterfeiters can easily change the PID to make the chip look like multiple different parts), and the driver is sending a command that it doesn't even know will have the effect of changing the PID because the PID can't be changed on a real part, so FTDI never even considered that the command might trigger a PID change?
My guess: cost saving. The counterfeits are probably using flash memory where, perhaps, FTDI doesn't. Doesn't make it any less wrong to do what they did.

And btw, it appears that FTDI does now admit that what they did was intentional but "necessary" - http://www.zdnet.com/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update-7000035019/
Effectively a plead of "guilty." That could put this in criminal court.
 

Tatty_Two

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It seems that this thread is coming to the end of it's natural life, all I would chip in with is one small point, in the UK (I can't speak for all international laws) it's irrelivent whether you know or not if an item you purchase or receive is counterfeit or stolen, you will still be prosecuted for being in possesion of it and the sentencing guidelines make no discrimination between knowing or ignorance, simply because it's difficult to have absolute proof.
 

TheMailMan78

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It seems that this thread is coming to the end of it's natural life, all I would chip in with is one small point, in the UK (I can't speak for all international laws) it's irrelivent whether you know or not if an item you purchase or receive is counterfeit or stolen, you will still be prosecuted for being in possesion of it and the sentencing guidelines make no discrimination between knowing or ignorance, simply because it's difficult to have absolute proof.
Same in the states. Possession of stolen items is a crime. Physical or intellectual. People arguing against FDTI are just ambulance chasers.
 

FordGT90Concept

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Possession of stolen items is a crime. Physical or intellectual.
Negative, nothing was stolen. Considering the counterfeits are using the same driver, that implies the counterfeit is reverse-engineered which is legal. Actually, the only violation these chips have which invoke the word "counterfeit" is that their markings claim them to be FTDI. If the "counterfeit" manufactures started selling them under their own brands, the products would be completely legal even if they use someone else's driver. FTDI couldn't be held liable if they change their driver which prevents other brands from working; however, FTDI intentionally modifying the firmware is highly illegal, counterfeit or not.

Source for everything below:

Zeptobars.ru said:
What's the economic reason of making software fake of well-known chip instead of making new one under your own name? This way they don't need to buy USB VID, sign drivers in Microsoft, no expenses on advertisement. This fake chip will be used right away in numerous mass-manufactured products. New chip will require designing new products (or revisions) - so sales ramp up will happen only 2-3 years later. Die manufacturing cost is roughly the same for both dies (~10-15 cents) .

...

In our original conversation with FTDI representatives back in February we suggested that making chips send 0's is a bad solution because it causes a lot of debugging headache for lots of people and that we feel the most adequate solution would have been to have drivers send "FAKECHIP" string. In this case the issue would have been immediately obvious for everyone, with a temporary, non-convenient workaround of using old drivers.

Unfortunately, current update of FTDI drivers in windows made things much worse: software-compatible chips abusing "FTDI" marking are now silently bricked by FTDI drivers by resetting their PID. This makes whole situation even more damaging for lots of end users who bought legitimate products built with good faith for the last 2 years and had no chance to know they were based on fake chip.

There is no doubt that FTDI have the right to protect their IP and products, but current situation causes way too much damage. As a company they should fight other companies and shady suppliers, instead of retrospectively punishing end users who cannot possibly know origin of each chip used by the product they bought year ago.

We are also worried by potential FTDI's liability for causing intentional damage to products they do not own. Misusing PID/VID is strictly not a crime (you just cannot put USB mark on your device), and we are not sure that all "compatible" chips are abusing FTDI's logo.
 
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I'm going to take one last run at this, because it seems as though everyone wants to talk in circles about what they think. The short of it is that what you think doesn't matter.

I believe that FTDI did this with the intent of protecting their IP. I also believe it is a dick move to do so.


The facts are:
1) FTDI makes chips that are market standards when it comes to USB-serial conversions.
2) FTDI writes code for these chips, intending for them to function correctly using their code.
3) FTDI uses a chip foundry that they don't own, so "reverse engineering" chips is a distinct possibility.
4) FTDI cannot patent their IP, and they can't consider it a trade secret. As such, true reverse engineering is allowable.
5) Most reverse engineering companies (the kind where the term is liberally swapped with IP thieving) cut out expensive bits to make their hardware much cheaper, with less functionality.
6) In FTDI's case their firmware is cloned onto the "reverse engineered" parts, because the cheaper manufacturer doesn't want to spend money on developing firmware themselves.
7) FTDI released a new firmware that did not damage any of their products. While none of FTDI's products were bricked, the "reverse engineered" parts were.
8) Anyone who has such a bricked device can fix it with a little bit of technical skills.
9) Malicious intent cannot be proven on FTDI's part, because there is no way to legally do so. Even if they had malicious intent, the use of the pirated firmware in these "reverse engineered" parts constitutes a breach of the user agreements and an opportunity for FTDI to sue the manufacturer for IP theft and defamation.



Allow me to share a relevant story with you. My uncle buys an HVAC system for his house, from a bunch of contractors. They install it, and he calls up the HVAC unit manufacturer to activate the warranty. Low and behold, the unit was stolen from a new home (the contractors "install" it in the new house, report is stolen, receive an insurance check for the stolen property, and then resell it to someone else at a discounted price). What my uncle gets is the police coming over and ripping out the HVAC unit, which he paid for. The police tell him to file a civil suit against the installers, which will take from months to years to resolve. The criminal suit will be resolved well in advance of it, so the likelihood that there will ever be any reimbursement is almost zero. The consumer gets screwed, despite doing nothing wrong. The culpable party is a middle man, because the manufacturer did nothing wrong. Life is not fair, and this injustice proves it.

My knee-jerk reaction is to not like when the consumer gets screwed. At the same time, FTDI could either have made an innocent mistake or been protecting their IP/reputation. Either way, FTDI is completely free of culpability. No matter what you think/believe, the reality is that legally FTDI is free from sin. arguments to the contrary are easily answered with the question "can you prove it?" As nothing here can be proven to have the intent to damage their property, the proposition that FTDI is seriously in any trouble is laughable. Even the US's legal system has recognized that fast food isn't culpable for people getting fat. FTDI, likewise, isn't guilty for their firmware temporarily bricking cloned hardware illegally using their firmware for its operations.
 

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FordGT90Concept

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Good, FTDI has had some sense knocked into them.
 
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