Upgrade: Mobo/Processor? Or Mobo/SLI-GPU?

[OtherSyde]

So this is my first post here, though I've been lurking for years. I am facing an upgrade choice and need some advice. I'm a gamer. I'm trying to get noticeably better gaming performance. A few months ago I upgraded my EVGA GeForce 650 TI SuperSC 1GB to a GeForce 960 GTX SuperSC 2GB, and get much better framerates, but some games, like Crysis 3, Far Cry 4, and even the original Crysis with some heavy mods like Hi Res Foliage, Rygel's Hi Res Texture Pack, and Crysis Expanded bring my system to a crawl at like 17fps when viewing long distances/lots of objects. My current setup is:

-Cheap Gigabyte Micro-ATX Mobo GA-H61MA-D3V
-LGA 1155 Core i5 3570K 3.4GHz/3.8GHz Turbo
-EVGA GeForce 960 GTX SuperSC 2GB
-8GB G.SKILL Ripjaws 1333MHz RAM
-Corsair Neutron 240GB SSD
-Recent new PSU - ThermalTake TR2 700Watt

So my 2 upgrade paths that I see are:

1.
Upgrade Mobo/CPU to a MUCH faster, newer generation:
Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130801
CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117369
This option gives the possibility of SLI later (but I would not be able to afford it for awhile, like 6 months to a year), and would cost about $460 or so shipped - but would this make any difference in gaming terms? I'm already not bothering to upgrade the RAM because everyone says that as the MHz goes up in RAM the CAS latency slows to compensate, so RAM speed has no real significant impact on gaming fps.

2.
However, if a 3.8GHz Ivy Bridge i5 is enough for gaming and the Devil's Canyon i7/Mobo combo wouldn't really affect gaming significantly for its price tag and would be a waste of extra money, would it be wiser to just grab a Socket LGA 1155 Mobo that includes SLI functionality, slap the same RAM and i5 3570K CPU into it, then buy a second SuperClocked GTX 960 and run SLI? It would only run me about $330 with these two components:
Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157293
GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487091

Ideally of course, I'd like to just buy it all, but I don't have that much cash to burn; I'll already have to buy the components separately for either path I take as it is.

Given the price difference and the prospective performance gains of each option, what do you think would be the better route to keep me gaming smoothly for the next year or two? Any advice would be greatly appreciated... Thanks!

 

[thebluebumblebee]

Welcome to TPU. It gets kinda quiet around here on Fridays.
I like to point people to this chart of CPU gaming performance. As you can see, your CPU is in the top tier, so that's not your problem.

some heavy mods like Hi Res Foliage, Rygel's Hi Res Texture Pack, and Crysis Expanded bring my system to a crawl at like 17fps when viewing long distances/lots of objects

This is your problem. I think you're running out of VRAM. SLI will not fix the problem.
IMHO, you should have gotten the GTX 970.
But, I'll defer to @RCoon , our Gaming Moderator.
Edit:
Are you using both monitors?
Also:

The GTX 960 is great for 1080p gaming with all titles, but some of the recent ones may require you to drop details a bit, or turn anti-aliasing off.

 

[krusha03]

The i5 should be enough for gaming especially when overclocked. What you can do to safe some money is get this Z75 board. It's not as fancy as that Z77 but will do the job for $50 less

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=

What kind of cpu cooler do you have? If you use the stock cooler you will need to change it to keep the temperatures down


Wrt to you vga, sli may or may not help depending on the games you use. There is a in depth review here but overall it shows that a single 970 or 290x is faster than 2x 960.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_960_SLI/23.html

What you can do is sell your current 960 and get a 970 or a 290x for about $300. Example:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=

 

[MrGenius]

Sell the 960 and buy something better. Then work from there. If you get all warm and fuzzy inside over having the newest toys, wait until the 380X is released in a few months and buy that. That's what I'd do.

 

[krusha03]

Sell the 960 and buy something better. Then work from there. If you get all warm and fuzzy inside over having the newest toys, wait until the 380X is released in a few months and buy that. That's what I'd do.

the 380X is just a rebranded 290x no? So he might as well buy that now

 

[MrGenius]

the 380X is just a rebranded 290x no? So he might as well buy that now

Good point. And in the end, who knows? The 290X might end up being "better". Like the (higher OCing)7970 GHz vs. 280X. Because other than native DX12(vs. DX11.2) and Open GL 4.4(vs. 4.3) support(neither of which is likely to matter much comparitively), the 380X doesn't really have anything newer/better to offer(besides a name).

 

[OtherSyde]

I only use the one monitor (the Dell because it has way better color and angle-viewing) for gaming, so single-screen 1080p gaming.

And dammit, I knew I should have gone with the 970 or 980... EVGA's 2GB GTX 960 SSC just got such good reviews, and the 1GB 650 TI SSC played all my games decently at 1080p so I figured twice the VRAM plus three generations of technology should be plenty. Should have known better, since I'm a graphics whore and any graphics whores should always buy top-tier. Crap. But thanks for the advice though, it's good to know that my processor is still quite virile for gaming. And it'll be good to avoid SLI, since I've heard it always has its caveats like micro-stuttering, random game crashes, various game-engine incompatibility issues, and on top of all that, despite having 4GB total memory between two 2GB 960's I would still functionally only have 2GB of VRAM, and screw that whole raft of problems. Sigh. Guess I'll hock the new 960 and buy a 4GB GTX 970.

What would be a good cooling system to get for a moderately-overclocked i5 3570K? I've heard good things about the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO system, but is it enough..? Or should I go with one of those self-contained liquid-cooling systems?

Also, now that it seems to be my obvious path, how do you guys go about selling a used video card? I've never sold such a thing before. Craigslist sounds awful sketch for selling electronics lol. Ebay? Amazon?

 

[krusha03]

I only use the one monitor (the Dell because it has way better color and angle-viewing) for gaming, so single-screen 1080p gaming.

And dammit, I knew I should have gone with the 970 or 980... EVGA's 2GB GTX 960 SSC just got such good reviews, and the 1GB 650 TI SSC played all my games decently at 1080p so I figured twice the VRAM plus three generations of technology should be plenty. Should have known better, since I'm a graphics whore and any graphics whores should always buy top-tier. Crap. But thanks for the advice though, it's good to know that my processor is still quite virile for gaming. And it'll be good to avoid SLI, since I've heard it always has its caveats like micro-stuttering, random game crashes, various game-engine incompatibility issues, and on top of all that, despite having 4GB total memory between two 2GB 960's I would still functionally only have 2GB of VRAM, and screw that whole raft of problems. Sigh. Guess I'll hock the new 960 and buy a 4GB GTX 970.

What would be a good cooling system to get for a moderately-overclocked i5 3570K? I've heard good things about the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO system, but is it enough..? Or should I go with one of those self-contained liquid-cooling systems?

Also, now that it seems to be my obvious path, how do you guys go about selling a used video card? I've never sold such a thing before. Craigslist sounds awful sketch for selling electronics lol. Ebay? Amazon?

It really depends on the budget. The 212 evo is a good entry level cooler. If you wanna go with water you need to check what kind of radiator you can fit in your case but that is more expensive. Selling 2nd hand i normally use a local website here so i can't comment whats the best place in the US but ebay should be good. And seeing as your card is almost you should be able to fetch a good price. You can also try selling it on the forum here

 

[xvi]

Could try checking under the sensors tab in GPU-z to confirm that it's running out of vram. Seeing as how you have a dual monitor setup, could put GPU-z on one screen and Crysis/whatever game on the other.

The 212 evo is a good entry level cooler.

+1. Good performance for the price on those and it's a very common recommendation for entry-level aftermarket cooling.

how do you guys go about selling a used video card?

Right this way, good sir and/or madam, to the TechPowerUp Buy/Sell/Trade section of the forums!
eBay should fetch a good price too. People go kind of nuts about video cards there.
Also, welcome to the forums! Officially, I mean. Shouldn't have lurked for so long!

 

[DinaAngel]

You could wait until 980 ti and 390x comes out and get great deals From people selling theyr old parts

Welcome to TPU. It gets kinda quiet around here on Fridays.
I like to point people to this chart of CPU gaming performance. As you can see, your CPU is in the top tier, so that's not your problem.

This is your problem. I think you're running out of VRAM. SLI will not fix the problem.
IMHO, you should have gotten the GTX 970.
But, I'll defer to @RCoon , our Gaming Moderator.
Edit:
Are you using both monitors?
Also:

Lol the 5930k is there but no 4930k and 4960x

 

[OtherSyde]

Well crap. As soon as I load up my maxed-out/modded-out Crysis, the video memory usage spikes to almost maximum usage! It never gets anywhere near full GPU Load or gets very warm though - apparently EVGA included a great cooling system and plus I have like 3-4 other case fans keeping the ventilation going strong. I think my biggest problem here is obviously being way short on VRAM. Damn, I had no idea an 8-year-old game like the original Crysis could demand so much VRAM! Crazy!

The CPU usage shown here is lower than it actually was in-game since I'd just alt-tabbed out of Crysis a few seconds earlier, but the usage never went above about 62% on Core #0 or above about 45% on any of the other cores. Granted, the Max CPU temperature of 88 degrees clearly demonstrates that the CPU needs a better cooling system.

I guess I will try and hock my almost-brand-new EVGA GPU here on the boards first, and I've already ordered an EVGA 4GB GTX 970.

My case is a mid-size ATX RAIDMAX Scorpio 868W model, which is a monolithic relic from the early halcyon days of custom gaming computer builds which I bought for about $90 almost twelve years ago - it's a good-size case and can fit just about anything inside it in terms of radiators; what would be a good, sturdy mid-range all-in-one water cooling system for moderately overclocking my CPU? Are there any tried-and-true favorites on the boards?

 

[xvi]

It never gets anywhere near full GPU Load or gets very warm though

Probably spends a lot of time idle waiting for resources to load.
People said Crysis wasn't optimized well due to being rushed towards the end. They cited that framerates on beginning levels were good, but got worse and worse the further you got due to maps being poorly optimized. I don't know if this ever ended up being true or if it was just FUD. Could have something to do with it though. Stacking on tons of mods likely doesn't help regardless.

My case is a mid-size ATX RAIDMAX Scorpio 868W model

I'm pretty sure it's basically the same case as my Thermaltake Xasier II in which case there's no 120mm fan mounts. Could probably see about mounting up something in the 5.25" bays if you want to get creative though. I cut up and bent an old CD-ROM shell to make a 120mm radiator mount. Ideally, I need to do two if you go for something too large. One for top and one for bottom.

Edit: I normally don't see much point in upgrading computer cases (it's not like the ATX mount points have changed in years), but it does make sense if you want to go for anything watercooling. Mounting points are pretty critical when it comes to watercooling. Slicing up the case is an option though.

Edit two: Might be easier to just pick up a new case. Even cheap cases these days (~$50 range) have 1x120mm and 2x120mm fan/radiator mounts. Might be worth it a little bit. I don't think the airflow in the case you have was particularly stellar. I'm sure some people
If you're set on watercooling, I think most would recommend a Corsair H80 or H100 (I've only done custom loops, so I'm not too familiar with the current AIO scene).
Personally, I'd recommend considering a new case, but probably also recommend just going with a Hyper 212 Evo for the sake of simplicity and because an AIO typically won't give you much more performance anyways.

 

[OtherSyde]

I'm pretty sure it's basically the same case as my Thermaltake Xasier II in which case there's no 120mm fan mounts. Could probably see about mounting up something in the 5.25" bays if you want to get creative though.

Yeah, I'm seeing it only has space for 80mm fans; I don't know how long the liquid tubes on the cooling systems are, or if they would reach over to the 5.25" bays... Hrm...

 

[[Ion]]

My case is a mid-size ATX RAIDMAX Scorpio 868W model, which is a monolithic relic from the early halcyon days of custom gaming computer builds which I bought for about $90 almost twelve years ago - it's a good-size case and can fit just about anything inside it in terms of radiators; what would be a good, sturdy mid-range all-in-one water cooling system for moderately overclocking my CPU? Are there any tried-and-true favorites on the boards?


View attachment 63693

The issue with that case (provided it's the one on Newegg, here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811156135) is that there's not really anywhere you could put a radiator. I have an i7-2600k system in an older Cooler Master mid-tower that also didn't have space for a radiator; my solution was to just stick the radiator on the bottom, perpendicular to the bottom of the case. The issue with this is that it blocks all but one of the PCIe slots and heats up the inside of the case pretty badly.

My two cents is, it's probably time to replace that case. And there are lots of good ones to go for
Then you could comfortably fit in a liquid cooling system

 

[xvi]

Yeah, I'm seeing it only has space for 80mm fans; I don't know how long the liquid tubes on the cooling systems are, or if they would reach over to the 5.25" bays... Hrm...

Tried to ninja in some edits on my post above, but couldn't get them in very quickly. IIRC, airflow isn't particularly great in those cases. You may see some improvement in temps by changing cases. I usually find it hard to justify spending money on cases, but I think even current cases in the ~$50 range would really open up some options for you and might be worth it.

Edit (See? I did it again): All in all, I'd still recommend going with the Hyper 212 Evo. It'd work with your current case and if you want to go for water cooling later, it's not too big of a loss.
$30-40 for the Hyper 212 vs ~$150-200 for a decent AIO watercooler and a case to fit it in.
The AIO and case will certainly look better though. If that makes you happy and you have that much budget, it can definitely be worth it if it makes you happy.

Edit 2: You might be right about the AIO not reaching. If it did, I think it'd be only just.

 

[OtherSyde]

Tried to ninja in some edits on my post above, but couldn't get them in very quickly. IIRC, airflow isn't particularly great in those cases. You may see some improvement in temps by changing cases. I usually find it hard to justify spending money on cases, but I think even current cases in the ~$50 range would really open up some options for you and might be worth it.

Edit (See? I did it again): All in all, I'd still recommend going with the Hyper 212 Evo. It'd work with your current case and if you want to go for water cooling later, it's not too big of a loss.
$30-40 for the Hyper 212 vs ~$150-200 for a decent AIO watercooler and a case to fit it in.
The AIO and case will certainly look better though. If that makes you happy and you have that much budget, it can definitely be worth it if it makes you happy.

Edit 2: You might be right about the AIO not reaching. If it did, I think it'd be only just.

Yeah, my CPU isn't going into critical temps (95+ degrees) or anything even under full load, so given that I would also have to buy a new case, I will probably just hold off on the watercooling bit and go for a Hyper 212 EVO for now, if it drops my temps 10-15 degrees I should be fine for awhile. I can't afford that right now anyway, having just dropped $360 (with extended warranty) on a 4GB GTX 970. I'll upgrade my case and get water-cooling in the next generation when I upgrade my CPU, MOBO, DDR4 RAM, etc.

[EDIT] - Make that $390 because California rapes everyone with obscene taxes. Ugh. Why did I move here

 

[krusha03]

Yeah, my CPU isn't going into critical temps (95+ degrees) or anything even under full load, so given that I would also have to buy a new case, I will probably just hold off on the watercooling bit and go for a Hyper 212 EVO for now, if it drops my temps 10-15 degrees I should be fine for awhile. I can't afford that right now anyway, having just dropped $360 (with extended warranty) on a 4GB GTX 970. I'll upgrade my case and get water-cooling in the next generation when I upgrade my CPU, MOBO, DDR4 RAM, etc.

[EDIT] - Make that $390 because California rapes everyone with obscene taxes. Ugh. Why did I move here

Fuck man that's $80 than the list price. which 970 did you buy in the end? Maybe you should have looked at ebay to avoid the tax. And the Hyper 212 Evo will do just fine

 

[thebluebumblebee]

NE had a Gigabyte GTX 970 today for $315 after $30 MIR.
Your case sucks. Oh wait, it doesn't, and that's a problem. (I joke that 80 MM fans move as much air as a sneezing gnat)
You really need to replace that case, or get creative with a saw. You're about to stat dumping 163 watts of heat into it (from the GPU) (basically, about 100 watts more than your 650 Ti) and I think you'll see other temps climb.
You don't have to go crazy on a case. Matter of fact, Shell Shocker: Fractal Design Define R4 Blackout with Window $80 (expires at midnight for those of us here on the west coast)

 

[OtherSyde]

Fuck man that's $80 than the list price. which 970 did you buy in the end? Maybe you should have looked at ebay to avoid the tax. And the Hyper 212 Evo will do just fine

Oh it was $329, plus $30 for the extended warranty, plus $6 3-day shipping, plus roughly $24 in non-consensual prison sex tax for living in California

It does apparently come with a $10 mail-in rebate as well, which will probably get lost in the clutter on my counter and forgotten anyway.

It looks like I missed that case sale, but I'd rather just get an awesome swank-looking gamer case than a cheapy anyhow. I guess that will happen on my next paycheck... I've been waiting for an excuse to upgrade my old Scorpio for awhile now anyway

Well, now I guess it's down to the waiting game. I'll keep this thread updated once the new card arrives. Thanks to everyone for the advice!

 

[NC37]

They all pretty much answered the problem but for future reference...never buy 128 bit GPUs. They are only acceptable in laptops where you are willing to cut effects for the benefit of battery or heat levels. Rest of the time it is 256bit+ or nothing.

 

[thebluebumblebee]

It looks like I missed that case sale, but I'd rather just get an awesome swank-looking gamer case than a cheapy anyhow.

The R4's no cheapy.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Fractal_Design/Define_R4/

 

[OtherSyde]

The R4's no cheapy.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Fractal_Design/Define_R4/

Mmm, seems to be the darling of the PC-building community right now - I've seen Fractal Design towers being used and promoted by several YouTube video reviewers as well. That specific case doesn't hold the aggressively striking, gaming bling-factor that I tend to favor over the clean, simplistic design, but it is neat. I've seen some of their cases have bigger side-windows though; I'll definitely look into those ones while drooling over the plethora of mid-towers on Newegg!

[EDIT] - Just to let anyone interested know, I think I've settled on the Thermaltake Core V71 Extreme case. It's extremely well-ventilated but fairly quiet, it's huge and has plenty of room for enormous heat-sinks or water cooling systems, it looks really snazzy with all the awesome LEDs but alternatively looks really classy when you switch the LED's off with the built-in LED power switch, and has a big window in the side just like I love. Plus tool-free drive-tray removal. I think this is my dream case.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133244

 

[OtherSyde]

Well, after some research I realized the Thermaltake V71 case is god-damned humongous, coming in at 23" tall! Holy crap. My old RAIDMax Scorpio tower was nowhere near that tall and it was already way too big for my tiny Micro-ATX MOBO setup, so I went with the much-loved Corsair Carbide Air 240; perfect for Micro-ATX, room for SLI/Crossfire GPU's, great cooling/airflow, and it's so tiny! Loving this case. I just got it in today, along with my 4 new 120mm LED fans, blue SATA cables, and cold-cathode UV light bar. As soon as I got home from work I starting transferring all my components into my new case.

First, I'll show a few pics of how I mutilated my old Scorpio case last week to get better airflow while I awaited the arrival of my new case. I removed the screen and grill from the side fan, and took some metal shears and straight chopped out some big circles in the rear of the case where each fan mounted...

You wanna talk about LOUD... Wow. All three 80mm fans cranked up to max with no noise-inhibiting grills, plus the power supply fan and the characteristic noisy coil-whine of the EVGA 970's ACX fans made for one obnoxious cacophony of racket. But bluebumblebee was correct in saying that old case had crappy airflow - hacking those vents wide open did cool my GPU about 10-15 degrees.

Anyway, before the surgery, here's how the old and the new stacked up physically...

A lot of unneeded size and weight (that old all-metal mid-tower was heavy!) was shed, and a lot of style and superior cooling was gained.

 

[OtherSyde]

And now that it's assembled, here's a few shots of the setup...

Notice there are no fans in the rear of the case - I had mistakenly thought that all the fan mounts were 120mm fans, and was sorely disappointed to discover that the rear two are only for 80mm fans; I don't want to install my 12-year-old red or green case fans in there from my old case, so I will just order a couple of new ones when I order my liquid cooling unit in a week or so (next paycheck).

Definitely a major upgrade though, and I'm pretty happy with it thus far. Thanks to everyone for the advice, and for not accosting me for being a n00b. Cheers!

 

[[Ion]]

I'd argue that with all of the 120mm fans in the front and top, you don't need rear fans. My Dell T5500 is like that; a pair of ~100mm-ish fans in the front and then it just counts on pressure pushing air out the back.
I assume you'll be mounting the WC radiator to one of the front fans?