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Aquinus

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Methane production from cows accounts for 1/4 of all methane released into the atmosphere according to the EPA. Keep in mind that we breed a shit ton of cows here in 'Merica. *fart*
 

dorsetknob

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Keep in mind that we breed a shit ton of cows here in 'Merica. *fart*

Mc SpewBerger wiv frie;s duh and Supersize it wiv my Coke pls :):eek:
 

Aquinus

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dorsetknob

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Dorset where else eh? >>> Thats ENGLAND<<<
At Least in 'Merica. *fart* You Eat your Hormone loaded Bovines
In India they are ""SACRED HOLY AND WORSHIPPED"" and as such just wander around Shitting and Farting:laugh:
 
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This is an interesting thread, but the last few pages have been particularly odd.

1) Polling people is not a way to determine reality. We can cite a billion polls, but that doesn't determine facts. If that logic held water, then women would have already ended their suffrage (right to vote), dihydrogen monoxide would be banned (who really needs water any ways), and autism spectrum disorders would be cured by the anti-vaccination crowd.

2) Humans having no effect on the world because of "how insignificant" we are is crap. Ozone hole, that's humanity. Light pollution visible from space, that's humanity. Chernobyl exclusion zone, humanity again. What about the dams which provide water to the US southwest? Citing our insignificance somehow forgets that 6 billion of even something small amounts to something substantial.

3) Don't believe there's a consensus on the issue? Perhaps you need to get in line. There's a section of the population which believes that water has a memory, and somehow arsenic can cure your ailments due to the memory of that water. There's a significant contingent of people who believe that crystal have their own innate power field, and that said field can cure disease. Without singling out any specific denomination; their are faith healers who claim to cure diseases, who have never once actually cured any. While a complete consensus is nice, it's hardly necessary to start working towards some reasonable changes. Even with a 99% consensus, that doesn't mean the other side is worth giving equal attention.

4) Don't believe in global warming, fine. Don't believe in global cooling, fine. Somehow take umbrage with the term "climate change," fine. I implore you to go to Beijing between events for the outside world. I implore you to remember Pittsburgh from the late eighties and early nineties. Both places allowed you the opportunity to chew the air, and require actions to fix the environmental crap storm us humans created. Environmental protection regulation aren't just about making life difficult for businesses, sometimes it's about cleaning up what people have done. Focusing back on Pittsburgh, today it's a clean metropolis that's known more for technology than the coal dust from the steel industry. Perhaps sometimes we can agree on things which make life difficult, so that our lives are worth living.

5) "Greenhouse gasses" is the most idiotic term possible. Want to know what else is a greenhouse gas. water vapor. Assuming we could somehow remove most of the CO2 in the atmosphere, remove all the methane, and still somehow live on the planet we'd need to put some of those gasses back for fear of freezing to death. The atmosphere exists partially to trap heat from the sun, and make the planet habitable. If you didn't want any of that you could happily live on Mars. People rail against the emission of greenhouse gasses, without for a moment considering what is actually a necessity. Removing this term from the discussion is necessary, because too many people demonize it without understanding why.



Presumably we'd also like an answer to the question originally posed by the OP. In my opinion, this is less of a scandal than the report anti-vaxers use as the basis for their argument. Other scientists have come forward, and cited discrepancies. The discrepancies have been logged, assessed, and functionally dismissed. The reasoning is simple, this is based off of weather, not climate. Somehow people still conflate the two. By that logic I can determine that the entire world is experiencing the precursor to a flood designed to wipe out humanity, based on the increased annual rainfalls at my home. Climate is not equal to weather, and neither of them can be observed with a few fixed points.

As to the articles cited, maybe you should read more than just the headlines. The author is hard right line. He begins with a confirmation bias, towards proving that humans don't influence climate. He cites climate scientists, who have the same confirmation bias. The circular logic starts there, and he concludes with this one scientist being his only source. Sounds fishy, because if there was a conspiracy more than one person should be able to disprove it, no? Never mind the US geological survey claiming that the scientist was an idiot. Never mind the lies about his academic past (professor of geology retired since 1996 and the university never had a climatology department). Once you've finished overlooking glaring flaws in the argument; this article is one guy confirming what he thinks with the ideas of another guy, who has no qualifications and data to support his assertions, and is all built on the supposition that the entire rest of the scientific community is secretly in a cabal that is hiding the truth from everyone. If that doesn't define paranoia I'm not sure what does.



Edit:

Perhaps my biases should also be explored prior to considering my words.

I support nuclear power, because it's the only way that coal and oil can ever be truly retired and still maintain our quality of life.

I support vaccinations. Just because the disease is rare, doesn't mean you should prevent little Timmy from getting a shot. Herd immunity only works when most people do it, and Autism spectrum disorders can't be factually linked to vaccinations.

I support government imposed environmental restrictions, but hate the EPA. Stopping people from burying drums of benzyne in the desert is necessary, but telling somebody they can't build their house on this specific strip of land, while their neighbors have been there for ten years, is an abuse of power. Additionally, if whales are the only thing you can claim as a successful defense, and their population was climbing before you were created, your success rate is exactly nothing.

Finally, I support science. If your idea has facts, relevant data, and can withstand the academic Thunderdome you should be listened to. Studying gender diversity is not science, religious studies is not science, and the artistic manipulation of facts is not science. All of these people try to use science, and they're wrong. Science cannot be bent to prove your points, and doing so will get you the academic bitch slap you deserve.
 
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The science is over....? The sky is still falling...for the most part....
DURHAM, N.C. – A new study based on 1,000 years of temperature records suggests global warming is not progressing as fast as it would under the most severe emissions scenarios outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
“Statistically, it’s pretty unlikely that an 11-year hiatus in warming, like the one we saw at the start of this century, would occur if the underlying human-caused warming was progressing at a rate as fast as the most severe IPCC projections,” Brown said. “Hiatus periods of 11 years or longer are more likely to occur under a middle-of-the-road scenario.”
https://nicholas.duke.edu/news/global-warming-more-moderate-worst-case-models
 
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So if it's not the worst case scenario, then everything is dandy? You're not just a half glass full kinda guy but a half of a glass is really 2 gallons guy.
 
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No man. You get me all wrong. I'm all about the mongering of fear.
 

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This is an interesting thread, but the last few pages have been particularly odd.

1) Polling people is not a way to determine reality. We can cite a billion polls, but that doesn't determine facts. If that logic held water, then women would have already ended their suffrage (right to vote), dihydrogen monoxide would be banned (who really needs water any ways), and autism spectrum disorders would be cured by the anti-vaccination crowd.

2) Humans having no effect on the world because of "how insignificant" we are is crap. Ozone hole, that's humanity. Light pollution visible from space, that's humanity. Chernobyl exclusion zone, humanity again. What about the dams which provide water to the US southwest? Citing our insignificance somehow forgets that 6 billion of even something small amounts to something substantial.

3) Don't believe there's a consensus on the issue? Perhaps you need to get in line. There's a section of the population which believes that water has a memory, and somehow arsenic can cure your ailments due to the memory of that water. There's a significant contingent of people who believe that crystal have their own innate power field, and that said field can cure disease. Without singling out any specific denomination; their are faith healers who claim to cure diseases, who have never once actually cured any. While a complete consensus is nice, it's hardly necessary to start working towards some reasonable changes. Even with a 99% consensus, that doesn't mean the other side is worth giving equal attention.

4) Don't believe in global warming, fine. Don't believe in global cooling, fine. Somehow take umbrage with the term "climate change," fine. I implore you to go to Beijing between events for the outside world. I implore you to remember Pittsburgh from the late eighties and early nineties. Both places allowed you the opportunity to chew the air, and require actions to fix the environmental crap storm us humans created. Environmental protection regulation aren't just about making life difficult for businesses, sometimes it's about cleaning up what people have done. Focusing back on Pittsburgh, today it's a clean metropolis that's known more for technology than the coal dust from the steel industry. Perhaps sometimes we can agree on things which make life difficult, so that our lives are worth living.

5) "Greenhouse gasses" is the most idiotic term possible. Want to know what else is a greenhouse gas. water vapor. Assuming we could somehow remove most of the CO2 in the atmosphere, remove all the methane, and still somehow live on the planet we'd need to put some of those gasses back for fear of freezing to death. The atmosphere exists partially to trap heat from the sun, and make the planet habitable. If you didn't want any of that you could happily live on Mars. People rail against the emission of greenhouse gasses, without for a moment considering what is actually a necessity. Removing this term from the discussion is necessary, because too many people demonize it without understanding why.



Presumably we'd also like an answer to the question originally posed by the OP. In my opinion, this is less of a scandal than the report anti-vaxers use as the basis for their argument. Other scientists have come forward, and cited discrepancies. The discrepancies have been logged, assessed, and functionally dismissed. The reasoning is simple, this is based off of weather, not climate. Somehow people still conflate the two. By that logic I can determine that the entire world is experiencing the precursor to a flood designed to wipe out humanity, based on the increased annual rainfalls at my home. Climate is not equal to weather, and neither of them can be observed with a few fixed points.

As to the articles cited, maybe you should read more than just the headlines. The author is hard right line. He begins with a confirmation bias, towards proving that humans don't influence climate. He cites climate scientists, who have the same confirmation bias. The circular logic starts there, and he concludes with this one scientist being his only source. Sounds fishy, because if there was a conspiracy more than one person should be able to disprove it, no? Never mind the US geological survey claiming that the scientist was an idiot. Never mind the lies about his academic past (professor of geology retired since 1996 and the university never had a climatology department). Once you've finished overlooking glaring flaws in the argument; this article is one guy confirming what he thinks with the ideas of another guy, who has no qualifications and data to support his assertions, and is all built on the supposition that the entire rest of the scientific community is secretly in a cabal that is hiding the truth from everyone. If that doesn't define paranoia I'm not sure what does.



Edit:

Perhaps my biases should also be explored prior to considering my words.

I support nuclear power, because it's the only way that coal and oil can ever be truly retired and still maintain our quality of life.

I support vaccinations. Just because the disease is rare, doesn't mean you should prevent little Timmy from getting a shot. Herd immunity only works when most people do it, and Autism spectrum disorders can't be factually linked to vaccinations.

I support government imposed environmental restrictions, but hate the EPA. Stopping people from burying drums of benzyne in the desert is necessary, but telling somebody they can't build their house on this specific strip of land, while their neighbors have been there for ten years, is an abuse of power. Additionally, if whales are the only thing you can claim as a successful defense, and their population was climbing before you were created, your success rate is exactly nothing.

Finally, I support science. If your idea has facts, relevant data, and can withstand the academic Thunderdome you should be listened to. Studying gender diversity is not science, religious studies is not science, and the artistic manipulation of facts is not science. All of these people try to use science, and they're wrong. Science cannot be bent to prove your points, and doing so will get you the academic bitch slap you deserve.

I loathe this thread and those like it because it always brings out the fucking lunatics. You however made me breathe a little more easily. Each time some fuckwit cites pseudo science, or watch some argument get cobbled together with incongruous factoids from the press, I'll think of what you wrote and be happier again.

:toast:


Oh and for this:

The science is over....? The sky is still falling...for the most part....

https://nicholas.duke.edu/news/global-warming-more-moderate-worst-case-models

Read this:

http://www.livescience.com/39250-global-warming-pacific-cooling.html
 
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So according to the new study...now the changes are down to ‘natural variability’? Who da thunk?
You can not compare thousands of years of temperatures with ANY credibility. You don't use ten different yardsticks and measuring devices and protocols and then just "calibrate" them to suit an ideological agenda.
The computer models are as accurate as animated wrinkle-remover commercials.

'Hiatus periods of 11 years or longer are more likely to occur under a middle-of-the-road scenario.'
There's no guarantee, however, that this rate of warming will remain steady in coming years, Li stressed.

'Our analysis clearly shows that we shouldn't expect the observed rates of warming to be constant. They can and do change.'

Middle of the road...So normal.
 
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qubit

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It's almost May, but arctic conditions of -8 centigrade are hitting the northern UK and Ireland!

"It looks like we are staying fairly unsettled into the start of May with temperatures average or a bit below average."

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/bri...-blast-as-temperatures-plummet-11363977930215

Doesn't mean that global warming is not happening of course and the weather is rather chaotic, but weather events like this look a bit embarrassing to anyone trying to show that the world is warming up.
 
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Isn't the mild weather you normally get in the UK and Northern Europe due to the N. Atlantic haline conveyor? That's supposed to break down as more ice melts and you have more fresh water entering the system.

It might be a little like the problem with the jet stream. As you get lower temperature gradients at the higher latitudes, the jet stream is more likely to meander like it did this winter in N. America.
 

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Climate change has wide consensus among scientists, yet whether it's real or not is ultimately a political decision, never mind the actual facts of the case. So, it's the opinion of vested interests in government that decides whether it's true or not, then. I know this isn't new, but seriously, you can't make this shit up, ffs. :rolleyes:

The article is from January, but it's still relevant.

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/01/22/politics/senate-not-ready-to-tie-climate-change-to-mankind/
 

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think you mean
Thermohaline circulation

and yes in conjunction with the jet stream they inter react with each other to drive the European weather

Much in the same way El Nineo drives pacific weather patterns
 

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Climate change has wide consensus among scientists, yet whether it's real or not is ultimately a political decision, never mind the actual facts of the case. So, it's the opinion of vested interests in government that decides whether it's true or not, then. I know this isn't new, but seriously, you can't make this shit up, ffs. :rolleyes:

The article is from January, but it's still relevant.

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/01/22/politics/senate-not-ready-to-tie-climate-change-to-mankind/

I read all that link....how stupid am i ?
US politicians debating climate change.?
UK ones are bad enough.

So the general consensus in that debate was
"We dont know"
or
" we dont know enough"
or
" those who are talking about it dont know what they are taliking about"

I think this thread should have a simple yes / no vote..bit late in the day to suggest it now but if you check the poll and chuck out the undecideds there is a winner, on TPU anyway.
 
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Climate change has wide consensus among scientists, yet whether it's real or not is ultimately a political decision, never mind the actual facts of the case. So, it's the opinion of vested interests in government that decides whether it's true or not, then. I know this isn't new, but seriously, you can't make this shit up, ffs. :rolleyes:
I'll clarify...
Scientific fact: the atmosphere is warming.
Scientific fact: atmospheric carbon dioxide levels are rising.
Scientific fact: atmospheric methane levels are rising albeit not as steadily.
Scientific fact: water vapor is the #1 green house gas (some 99%).
Scientific uncertainty: the impact of water vapor is strongly linked to weather patterns and weather is very difficult to accurately model; water vapor, thusly, is difficult to account for in climate models. Even those charged with modeling this (a NOAA scientist in Denver) believe that correcting the models won't change the consensus already formed around carbon dioxide.
Politics: given the above, what do we do?

The debate comes from politics because there's literally an infinite number of options ranging from status quo to full-on-crisis mode. The conservative types prefer status quo (thrive on order) while the progressive types prefer crisis (thrive on chaos). The solution resides somewhere in the middle. I could give examples from the USA but being that this is politics, it varies widely depending on the country.
 
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Methane production from cows accounts for 1/4 of all methane released into the atmosphere according to the EPA. Keep in mind that we breed a shit ton of cows here in 'Merica. *fart*

This is more an argument against the dairy/meat industry than global warming, to be honest.

And you'll agree with me after driving down the I5 corridor and seeing the literal "turd mountains" they make by the roadside farms in Northern Cal...
 

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@FordGT90Concept You have given a balanced and reasoned argument once again in the climate debate. You must stop it at once! <my best cross face> :p

You have just made a nice illustration of just how dirty politics is. In the end, I have a partially skeptical hat on whether climate change is caused by human activity or not, because of all the politics and corruption that infests science at this level, so I just don't know what to believe. All I can say for certain, is that the climate today in sunny Blighty certainly feels different to what I remember 20 or 30 years ago and there seem to be more weather " extreme world records" reported on the weather news nowadays.
 
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Easiest way to judge changes in weather is by flora and fauna and how they are reacting.
It's coming in to winter and it's mid to high 20's (celcius) still and birds are still mating and fruit is still growing on my trees, that isn't normal. Storms also feel more frequent and more violent.
 
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Since the time Earth was able to support life, the average temperature for hundreds of millions of years has been 24'C. At an average temperature of just over 14'C, we are technically still in the end of the last ice age. People freak out when the glaciers melt but ya know what, they aren't supposed to be here. Climate change is very real, been a constant since this planet was formed. To think mankind can play a role in expediting the process is lunacy. Mother Earth just laughs at us.

Waste of time, resources, money, and common sense. CO2 is now the new 'God'; invisible, all around us, and can be brought under control with mere coin. Ya....

:toast:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/13/carbonemissions.climatechange

Too bad it's not enaugh trees on earth anymore. within 1000 years oxygen levels will drop by almost 10%

mostly due to amount of people on earth and cars and all flames we create globally.

So in theory we will not be able to breathe within 2000 years time.

Currently it's at 21%

But as we cut more trees, we lower the years until tht.
the race to space begins

 
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FordGT90Concept

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You have just made a nice illustration of just how dirty politics is. In the end, I have a partially skeptical hat on whether climate change is caused by human activity or not, because of all the politics and corruption that infests science at this level, so I just don't know what to believe. All I can say for certain, is that the climate today in sunny Blighty certainly feels different to what I remember 20 or 30 years ago and there seem to be more weather " extreme world records" reported on the weather news nowadays.
As I pointed out a few posts ago, we undeniably are. Coal is carbon. Oil is hydro-carbon. Both have been trapped for millions of years. We're taking both out of the ground and burning it (combining it with atmospheric oxygen) which means we've taken carbon that was previously removed from the environment and introduced it back into the environment as carbon dioxide. We're also undeniably doing it at a rate that exceeds what plant life and algae can process (as @DinaAngel pointed out). These things combined can account for the steady rise in CO2 and fall in O2.

I'm a skeptic in that "correlation does not imply causation." Just because CO2 is a greenhouse gas which contributes to warming doesn't imply the observed warming is primarily caused by it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be proactive in trying to do right by nature.
 
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@FordGT90Concept You have given a balanced and reasoned argument once again in the climate debate. You must stop it at once! <my best cross face> :p

You have just made a nice illustration of just how dirty politics is. In the end, I have a partially skeptical hat on whether climate change is caused by human activity or not, because of all the politics and corruption that infests science at this level, so I just don't know what to believe. All I can say for certain, is that the climate today in sunny Blighty certainly feels different to what I remember 20 or 30 years ago and there seem to be more weather " extreme world records" reported on the weather news nowadays.
the normal weather is constant storms, currently since the last iceage theres been very unnatural clear weather. calm before the storm u could say.

the north pole might shift to alaska within 10k years if the earths mantle doesnt have much changes or lava and magma change stays as it is. but yellowstone will go off before that so its very unsure. also the deep layers on the tactile layers might change. time will tell where equator will be.

earth will slowly rotate less and less over time and have less of a magnetic field. 10k years is alot. even the moon will be further away. tiny changes is very big impact on things.
if the earth went a moon length further away from the sun. then we would expect 5 C difference
 
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Aquinus

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I'm a skeptic in that "correlation does not imply causation." Just because CO2 is a greenhouse gas which contributes to warming doesn't imply the observed warming is primarily caused by it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be proactive in trying to do right by nature.
True, but this isn't just about higher temperatures but rather large swings in temperature. Severe weather events usually come out because of a large low and high pressure systems colliding. If the difference in temperature between the two fronts is bigger, it will result in more severe weather (more precip, more wind, etc.) So just for the sake of the argument, we should acknowledge that "global warming" is a misnomer. While the earth's temperature is gradually increasing, the number of severe weather events have increased at a much higher rate. Adding instability to the atmosphere might in and of itself, be more dangerous than just the actual change in temperature alone.

I would hate to see what weather events would be like by the time O2 concentrations are half of what they are now.
 
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True, but this isn't just about higher temperatures but rather large swings in temperature. Severe weather events usually come out because of a large low and high pressure systems colliding. If the difference in temperature between the two fronts is bigger, it will result in more severe weather (more precip, more wind, etc.) So just for the sake of the argument, we should acknowledge that "global warming" is a misnomer. While the earth's temperature is gradually increasing, the number of severe weather events have increased at a much higher rate. Adding instability to the atmosphere might in and of itself, be more dangerous than just the actual change in temperature alone.

I would hate to see what weather events would be like by the time O2 concentrations are half of what they are now.
earths population will start to go down within 500 years i expect due to weather.
most people live in areas very easly harmed by storms and insane rainfall. dams would collapse, etc. type 5 tornadoes every week etc.

also too much rain will make difficult to grow things. also IF a super vulcano went off then i wouldnt be suprised seeing earths population halfed.

its almost better to just drill out a super vulcano to release the tension atm.

higher sea = more pressure on vulcanos
 
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FordGT90Concept

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the normal weather is constant storms, currently since the last iceage theres been very unnatural clear weather. calm before the storm u could say.
But places like the Sahara, Dead Sea, and Death Valley haven't seen major storms in a very, very long time. Weather is a nuanced thing and very geographical which is why it is so difficult to model and predict.


While the earth's temperature is gradually increasing, the number of severe weather events have increased at a much higher rate. Adding instability to the atmosphere might in and of itself, be more dangerous than just the actual change in temperature alone.
Severe weather events should lead to a cooling of the atmosphere though and there is another correlation there: severe weather events have been decreasing. This, alone, could account for the warming. Weather has shaped the Earth far more so than the greenhouse gases.

In climate literature, they talk about weather variability and uncertainty, never "increase in severe weather." That's alarmism from activists and the media. If anything, the climate literature is inclined towards the opposite (less variability). Yet again, another correlation: temperature increasing and weather variability decreasing. One could cause the other or perhaps no causation at all.
 
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