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'The Universe is slowly dying,' study shows with unprecedented precision

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I'm not going to bother looking up either, nothing personal.
It seems that for something to be a certainty, the majority have to agree and reach consensus, much like when the Earth was thought to be flat.
There is still no definitive proof.
 

TheMailMan78

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http://www.weather.gov -- enter your ZIP code and find out. NOAA is pretty accurate at predicting short-term forecasts.
Actually they don't. I lived in a Hurricane zone my entire life. They have no clue what is going on until it hits land. Even then its a guess what will happen next. NOAA had almost 100% chance of rain last Sunday for my area. Not a single drop fell. Most of Science for the study of space is all BS to get grants.
 
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I'm not going to bother looking up either, nothing personal.
It seems that for something to be a certainty, the majority have to agree and reach consensus, much like when the Earth was thought to be flat.
There is still no definitive proof.

That's the whole point. There is no certainty. Certainty is a fallacy.

Actually they don't. I lived in a Hurricane zone my entire life. They have no clue what is going on until it hits land. Even then its a guess what will happen next. NOAA had almost 100% chance of rain last Sunday for my area. Not a single drop fell. Most of Science for the study of space is all BS to get grants.

That's a pretty cynical way to go through life :(
 
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When is Al Gore going to make a movie about this?
 
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When is Al Gore going to make a movie about this?
This thread is going to get derailed very quickly if we go there!

To go into greater detail about theory and certainty.

Theory = generally accepted truth. Usually for any given scientific 'topic' there is only one theory. Others are disproved. In Astrophysics (big-bang) this is a little more complicated as it's pretty much impossible to disprove anything that is mathematically sound. So there are mainstream theories which have a solid mathematical foundation and other 'fluff' which might later turn into widely accepted theories (i'm greatly over-simplifying much of this)
Basically, if it's a theory, then to the best of out knowledge it is true.
(aside - Though we can never know what is truth as our perception of the universe is socially constructed and so can only interpret it through our experiences and senses)

In science, the level of accuracy gives us a good idea of how certain we are as a 'society' that the 'theory is correct' we can never be 100% certain in anything, it's a philosophical and scientific impossibility and goes against so many scientific laws (I'm thinking entropy/thermodynamics) that I have long forgotten :( Hell, when the LHC was fired up, they were only 90% certain that it wouldn't cause end of the world!

for the life of me, i can't find the quote about 90% certainty. I think because people it would freak people out if they misunderstood there was a 1/10 chance that a black-hole could be created and swallow up our planet. Instead scientists talk about degrees of accuracy, which largely depend on their measurement instruments. Added to the mix that some theories cannot be mathematically disproved, you have the right mix for a lot of misinterpretation. I'm by no means an expert in the field, but I understand the extent of my knowledge in the subject.

Here's a link to Cern along with the safety issues. When you bear in mind that there are so many probabilities adding up (in anything and everything) 90% is as close to certainty as you are going to get.

http://press.web.cern.ch/backgrounders/safety-lhc

Edit: More academic reading - https://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/613175/files/CERN-2003-001.pdf
Notice the use of the word negligible and theory.

[Edit] - Grammar, extra thoughts 'n' stuff

[Edit 2]

You have a problem with fact?

Yes. There is no such thing. Give me an example of a fact and (to the best of my ability) I will try to disprove it.
 
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Aquinus

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Actually they don't. I lived in a Hurricane zone my entire life. They have no clue what is going on until it hits land. Even then its a guess what will happen next. NOAA had almost 100% chance of rain last Sunday for my area. Not a single drop fell. Most of Science for the study of space is all BS to get grants.
I think you misunderstand what percent chance of precipitation means. It's not the odds that it's going to rain, it's the occurrence of precipitation given the same historical conditions.

So for example, when they say, "There is an 80% chance of rain," they're really saying, "80% of the time in the past with similar weather conditions, it rained." It's just data derived from observational statistics, it doesn't describe certainty, that is what projections are for.
 
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Sorry, not a personal attack or flame. It's a common source of :banghead: for me and it's a shame that more people outside of the science community don't understand science.

Search for "What is a scientific theory"

and

"Certainty in science"

In that order. And I would highly encourage anyone else who doesn't understand my frustration to do the same.



Until you disprove (or prove with a reasonable degree of accuracy) solipsism is real, that will never happen.

How can you prove "Certainty in science" in regard to space. We find things on earth everyday that question science and what we thought was right. Space is infinite and it contains billions objects that haven't been seen of or recorded. Everything in space isn't able to be reached and we are using prototype instruments that measure what we think to look for not what is actually out there. So that's the problem I have with this science and space stuff
 

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I think you misunderstand what percent chance of precipitation means. It's not the odds that it's going to rain, it's the occurrence of precipitation given the same historical conditions.

So for example, when they say, "There is an 80% chance of rain," they're really saying, "80% of the time in the past with similar weather conditions, it rained." It's just data derived from observational statistics, it doesn't describe certainty, that is what projections are for.
So 100% chance of precipitation doesn't mean its going to rain? Am I reading that correctly?

Also in 1992 I went to bed because NOAA said hurricane Andrew was going to hit the Broward/Dade County line. About 1am I woke up in the dead middle of a category 5 hurricane. They couldn't even tell me were a F#$KING hurricane was going to be within three hours? Science is pretty sure the cosmos is dying? We walked on the moon less than 50 years ago. We just got photos of Pluto and discovered things about its atmosphere we didn't know. Yet they know when the cosmos is dying? Come on man. Lets at least TRY and be realistic here.

I love Science. Science we can realistically test and practice. Space? Yeah Ill pass on most theories until we actually send a man out of our preverbal front door. Ya know actually leave our solar system? Right now its like trying to figure out what the neighbors were cooking 50 years ago by the type of light coming through their kitchen window today.
 
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They couldn't even tell me were a F#$KING hurricane was going to be within three hours?
You mad, bro? Neither could you but, I'm a little confused by how can you be 3 hours away from a category 5 storm and not know it's coming. Either way, I'm sorry your experience sucked but I've personally haven't witnessed that. Maybe the NOAA stations in the northeast suck less than the ones down south? Don't you live in Florida? Isn't storms coming out of nowhere normal for more southern parts of the state during certain times of year, south of the pan handle and out on the peninsula?

I was only commenting on your weather statement though. I too think this study is a bit foobar.
 

TheMailMan78

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You mad, bro? Neither could you but, I'm a little confused by how can you be 3 hours away from a category 5 storm and not know it's coming. Either way, I'm sorry your experience sucked but I've personally haven't witnessed that. Maybe the NOAA stations in the northeast suck less than the ones down south? Don't you live in Florida? Isn't storms coming out of nowhere normal for more southern parts of the state during certain times of year, south of the pan handle and out on the peninsula?

I was only commenting on your weather statement though. I too think this study is a bit foobar.
No I aint mad. We knew Andrew was coming. We knew it was going to hit. However NOAA said it was going to hit almost 80 miles north of where I was (Homestead). Within three or four hours it was right on top of us. Also the main NOAA building is located in South Miami. The NOAA National Hurricane Center was literally 15 minutes from my house and they dropped the ball. Like I said......until they can predict the weather or even a accurate pattern Ill hold off on the "Doomsday" 2 billion years from now. lol
 

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Let us stay on the topic at hand please and not derail this thread.
 
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Fuck off..

We still know a fraction of a percent of the information necessary to even pretend to make a statement regarding the life cycle of the universe.

First the universe was collapsing on itself, then it's expanding, now it's dying?
The Earth is a sphere. Then it's oblate! Now it's...pear shaped?

Yup, we humans know NOTHING! We base all science on math nowadays instead of experiments and observation.

:toast:
 

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I bitched a long time ago about this sub forum.

What @silkstone says is true. Science is based on observation and theory is based on testing such observation. When a theory is made that cannot be tested it isn't a certainty. However, scientific theory is a condition where a theory has not been disproved and has been supported by validation of a large number of peers. This is not solid, concrete proof but is almost a certainty. We built atomic weaponry and nuclear power plants based on theories based on 'near certainty'. Nobody could see the fission of nuclei but the theory was so sound we went ahead with it.

What we get on this 'science' forum though are people without an understanding of the validity of scientific theory. The opinion that we all assumed the earth was flat was because way back then we knew nothing. There was no science - it was philosophy, religion and basic mathematics. Science requires leaps and bounds in technology. The earth was flat because it looked flat and fitted with the interpretations of many religious texts (mainly through the egocentric view of man).

What we say is science now is easily broken into established theory (nuclear, evolution, tectonic, geologic etc) and plain theory (big bang, black holes, why toast falls butter side down). It's usually those with spiritual needs that like to debunk science the most but that's a defence mechanism which ironically from an evolutionary (at least psychologically speaking) point is understandable.

As for weather patterns? Any meteorologist will happily tell you a regional forecast is nothing but a forecast - a prediction based on stats. As for the 100% chance of rain. - Yes, in an area some 'x' miles across there will be rain. Just because your area didn't get it, doesn't mean another area in that section didn't. That's how it works.

And the universe dying thing - it's not a theory but a hypothesis based on some observations. It's not a theory until it's validated pretty much unanimously by the peer group, through repeated and valid observation.
 
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Exactly, which begs the question of whether or not there is a mechanism to rejuvenate the universe. Do big bangs recur? How does dark matter play into it, if at all? Is there a solution in the anomaly that is the accelerating expansion of the universe? What lies beyond 14 billion light years away?
Great thread, this is one my closest hobbies:p The universe theory is out, apparently now the cool kids are saying"multiverse" (still theory ofc) but if to be believed this universe we live in is one of many started by infinitely?? recurring bigbangs each creating it's own universe with it's own random laws of physics. They can't see past 14 billion years atm with Hubble because at that time space was still very hot and therefore opaque, so there is a big opaque wall around 14B years away. NASA are sending up (or may have already) infrared telescopes which will see past the Hubble's UDF.

Afa the expansion goes atm there isn't enough gravitational mass in the universe to hold it together, so at present our universe will eventually tear itself apart due Dark Energy, the Galaxies will separate, stars will die, and it'll be just one big empty cold place. No idea how the bigbangs can reoccur from that apparently it's something to do with Quantum Mechanics which is another whole can of worms because to find the "Theory of Everything" ie how we got here, Quantum Mechanics needs to be fused with Laws of Physics, and noone has found a way to do it yet.

Dark Energy is what the scientists measure but can't see, same with Dark Matter. DM isn't seen directly but the effects a have been through planetary orbit shifts and ofc Gravitational Lensing. So possibly a new element.


fwiw NJL (NASA) are working on a feasibility study to find away to travel FTL, by actually moving space itself, not through it. It's called....Warp Drive believe it or not. :D



I know how you feel about being depressed, what screws me up is when u think about the size of just the observable Universe, we really are fucked because we can't even get to the next planet, let alone the next star. :D
Have you eevr read the Fermi Paradox? It's the paradox of why we haven't found life or nobody else has found us with all the billions of stars out thee....that's what really depresses me.....


Fermi Paradox




Also if you haven't seen this one it's pretty interesting. Puts things into perspective. Laurence Krause A Universe from Nothing. The nothing part is theory, but there's heaps of really interesting scientific stuff about DM, DE and what they know.




Fun fact.: If our solar system was the size of a dime, the milky way would be the size of the United States. That's one galaxy. lol



White dwarfs I bet last a very, very long time. Still, it makes me sad. Something we're taught since childhood that the universe is infinite. That may be, but what use is an infinite universe that is dark and almost completely devoid of life. It's a depressing thought.
Fermi Paradox


Science isn't even certain the universe started with a big bang, that is only one of the theories.
It may only be one of many major events that we can measure in our visible part of the universe.
I think they are, but they don't know what caused it.... I mean everything they';ve theorised has been proven scientifically so far....Microwave Background Radiation was meant to be proof of the BB.

I'm not going to bother looking up either, nothing personal.
It seems that for something to be a certainty, the majority have to agree and reach consensus, much like when the Earth was thought to be flat.
There is still no definitive proof.
 
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@the54thvoid & @silkstone

You two give me hope that there are people that have a basic understanding of science in a world where scientific literacy is taking a huge plunge. Pseudoscience and evangelical religious preaching is on a huge rise.

It really really get me angry when people misuse and misunderstood the word "theory" and mistake it to mean just an idea in layman language. A scientific theory is not just a hypothesis but it is a hypothesis that is supported by evidence and can reproduce or tested by anyone. Like the theory of gravity and germ theory. You would not be going around and say it just a theory. I often time I felt like joking and saying something like "you know I jump off buildings because gravity is just a theory(sarcasm)".

Contrary to religious nuts that are anti-science, there is no such thing as prove scientifically as like you said science does not deal with certainty. Rational wiki have a good explanation on "scientific prove". http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Proof

It is the human nature not to be able to grasp science as we all have our own biases.
 
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@the54thvoid & @silkstone



Contrary to religious nuts that are anti-science, there is no such thing as prove scientifically as like you said science does not deal with certainty. Rational wiki have a good explanation on "scientific prove". http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Proof

It is the human nature not to be able to grasp science as we all have our own biases.
Do you know what the large Hadron Collider is?

btw I hope you're not referring to me as as the religious nut, as that would make you a bigot. I am certainly not religious. ;)
 
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Ironic thing is I was raised Catholic, but the more I learned about the universe and how alone we are, the less I believed in religion......
 
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Do you know what the large Hadron Collider is?

btw I hope you're not referring to me as as the religious nut, as that would make you a bigot. I am certainly not religious. ;)

Haha No I am not referring to you at all! In fact I agree with what you said. I glad to hear that this is part of your hobby.

When I mean religious nut, I am referring to those religious supporting geocentrism the believe where the Earth is the centre and the sun and other planet revolve around us. They cite how God made the world for us. They believe the Earth is 6000 years old. Also those religious people that don't believe in evolution when there are countless of fossil records and it form a huge basis of our modern medicine. Those are the obvious one.
 
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Ironic thing is I was raised Catholic, but the more I learned about the universe and how alone we are, the less I believed in religion......

I was raise very religious as we'll not a day pass where I never offer my prayer and believing in The Lord. But as of now I have deconverted and belief my just broke apart. It is a huge turmoil for me. Sadly I have to keep this a secret as my parents and whole family is religious and I would face huge repercussion being honest. I'll put that aside is hard to live a normal life.

I am alright with people having faith just as long as they don't harm people and destroy the advancement of sciences. Having faith gives people comfort in living in this harsh world.
 
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First the universe was collapsing on itself, then it's expanding, now it's dying?
The Earth is a sphere. Then it's oblate! Now it's...pear shaped?

Yup, we humans know NOTHING! We base all science on math nowadays instead of experiments and observation.

:toast:

Stupid, stupid reply.

The collapsing universe theory (one of many potential theories for how the universe as it currently exists might end) is still valid. It's immensely unlikely, given our understanding, because for it to occur there would have to exist particles and matter with some very improbable physical characteristics.

The expanding universe theory is our observed truth. Perhaps a bit more research into the topic is warranted, given you are equating ending scenarios with observable truth. The simple truth of the matter is that we can "see back" into time by looking at different parts of the universe. These different parts of the universe actually have a spectral emissions shift based upon traveling at some speed relative to us (red shift and violet shift respectively). We know there is a spectral shift because we know what frequencies matter emits once excited. If everything is moving relative to us, we can trace back a rough common starting point. If all observable bodies have roughly the same starting point (accounting for imprecise observation and immense stretches of time and distance), then we must all be expanding outward. Our observations match this conjecture, so the expanding universe theory is an observable and demonstrably valid hypothesis.

The universe dying is, quite possibly, the least interesting part of this whole discussion. It being a revelation to you is...wow. Perhaps you can ask your parents; and yes I know how condescending that sounds. Everything which requires energy dies. If that were not the case you'd only have to buy one hand warmer pack for your entire life. Those hand warmers use two chemicals in an exothermic reaction to produce heat. The result is a new chemical with much less potential energy, and waste heat which is dissipated into the environment. As that waste heat can go anywhere, it's functionally lost. The chemicals, assuming a reverse reaction can even be stimulated, actually require more input energy than released to warm your hands. Nuclear reactions, the sun in case you missed it, are the same. Hydrogen fuses to Helium, fuses to Lithium, to Beryllium, to Boron, etc... When the Hydrogen is gone, you can't make more Helium. When the Helium is gone you can't make more Lithium. Eventually, the mass of elements (a rough analog to electro-magnetic forces) will exceed gravity's ability to generate forces capable of nuclear fusion. When that happens the universe dies. No new energy, so no life. The only way that isn't the case is if the universe is somehow receiving energy from something that we don't yet understand. Unless and until that can be proven, assuming that everything dies eventually is one of the least stupid things that you can do.



Your lack of geophysical knowledge is astounding.

Just in case you missed it, different materials have different densities. If you were to place a cannonball (iron) in water it sinks, while the same cannonball in mercury floats. Why do I begin here; the Earth is composed of nearly 100 elements. These elements have different relative solubility, and substantially differing density. Gravitational forces, likewise, demonstrate this difference. The Earth has a thin outer shell of low density gasses. As you move down, you first encounter low density minerals (silicates and the like), along with water. Moving further down, heavier elements become more common. Finally, you get to the core of the planet. Nickel, Iridium, and Iron are densely packed there. The Iridium is immensely dense, the Iron is easily soluble in it, and the Nickel came along for the ride with Iron.

The reason that these elements are at the core is simple, as any school child can demonstrate on the play ground. A child standing in the center of a merry-go-round doesn't have to hold onto the bars very tightly. A significantly lighter child could hold stand half way between the center and outside and apply the same holding force to remain on the device. Finally, a child significantly lighter than either of the two aforementioned children could stand on the outside edge with the same holding force. If the inside child was to move to the edge they'd be thrown from the merry-go-round immediately. As gravitational potential energy is a relative constant, as with the applied holding force, you wind up with the densest materials at the center of the earth, and the lightest ones on the outside.

The oblate spheroid section of this discussion is down to simple physics, and it's the same reason we launch rockets near the equator rather than at the poles. The distance from the rotational pole (not the geomagnetic one) relates directly to your rotational velocity. Earth spins, so you have to be spinning too if you're standing on it. As the spin generates centripetal energy, the farther from the pole the more force is acting upon you. Thus, the earth must be slightly oblate. Even if the Earth had no relative rotation (and thus no rotational axis), plate tectonics and the fact that elements aren't homogeneously distributed throughout it would prevent it from being a sphere.






As far as basing science on math, get the heck out of here. Stupid doesn't even cover that kind of idiocy.

Chemists and metallurgists develop new alloys all the time. Those people are both scientist and engineers, utilizing observation and testing to prove out their theory.

Aerospace and automotive engineers develop plenty of things on the computer (using fluid dynamic equations), but when it comes time to choose a final design they proceed to the wind tunnel for actual testing. A computer model is worth a thousand words, but physical testing makes the text books which those words are derived from.

NASA just got information back from a Pluto fly-by. Theories about Pluto died, were confirmed, and a thousand more conjectures were born that day. Once the scientist comb through that data we may have more theories to test whenever next we get to observe that celestial dwarf.

To admit ignorance is expected, and does not influence your credibility. To bandy about ignorance as fact is cause to loose any respect you've ever developed. Which do you choose? More importantly, trolling or ignorance?
 
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We base all science on math nowadays instead of experiments and observation.

You know,I heard somewhere that scientists OBSERVED over 200,000 galaxies and found out some interesting stuff.
 

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welp, pack it in guys. you can give me all your rigs and i will take care of them for you while you prepare your bunkers.
 

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NASA just got information back from a Pluto fly-by. Theories about Pluto died, were confirmed, and a thousand more conjectures were born that day. Once the scientist comb through that data we may have more theories to test whenever next we get to observe that celestial dwarf.
You just proved my point. Pluto is right "next" to us and they had theories destroyed and new ones made within hours. Yet you want me to accept a theory based off of observation of billions of years old light, passing probably a billion stars and unknown gravity forces we can predict "Doomsday" with ANY kind of accuracy? Hell just a few years ago they discovered radiation decay isn't even constant!
http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/100830FischbachJenkinsDec.html

Dude that's our sun........our tiny little sun right next door and we don't know WTF its doing half the time.

I think you know I love Science and Sciences Oompa Loompas (Engineers) but, to me quantum physics, mechanics is the new religion. There is a lot of "faith" in the theories I find hard to swallow.
 
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