Certifications?

[satindemon4u]

Well holy shit lol.

Ok so to bring things to a finer point, should I obtain a cert or two WHILE going for my bachelors, or wait until that is done? I figured it wouldn't hurt to do it while going to school because it is just something to put down on my resume. The way I look at it is that it can't hurt, it can only help. Sure, some companies might see a cert on there and think nothing of it, but there will be others that would like to see it on there. Judging by what has been said about the A+ cert I may just skip over that one of get it later on if someone else is willing to pay for it lol. As for Computer Science, I don't think I will go that way with my education. Before I started going to school for anything IT related I thought that's what I wanted to do but it turns out it wasn't. I wasn't for the super in-deep part of it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Computer Science is all about code crunching and mathematics.

No! That is totally wrong. This illustrates a common misconception among those without degrees what it means to have your 4 year degree.

A CompSci degree is NOT all about code crunching and math. That is a very narrow, tunnel vision look at it. Having your 4 year degree is much more than the "major" it represents. You must also take advanced English and writing courses, learn task management, do research papers, civics or social studies, more research, more papers and even speaking - all skills that you need to advance in your career for higher paying leadership and management jobs.

A degree can carry you through 30, 40, 50 years of work.

So you're saying a BS in Electronics Management got you a high paying IT job as a team lead installing Network Monitoring software for a big company?
And this degree which never expires in Electronics Management is worth more at an interview than someone who has MCSA, or even no formal qualifications, but 3 -4 years experience?

That is exactly what I am saying and I didn't even have to install it. IBM sent their consultants in and installed the Tivoli software, made sure it worked, then left. Once installed, I was tasked to lead a team that consisted of folks with Tivoli certs. We then set up the software to monitor the entire distributive network, establish metrics, conduct the statistical analysis, create the training program, report status to executive managment, then train my replacement so I could go on the next product that I would manage. And that next job couldn't have been more different. I was then put in charge of building and maintaining 300 Windows 95 satellite weather and FAA flight plan submission terminals in 90+ general aviation airports in 9 states.

All the while, I was frequently called on to do alpha and beta testing for DoD and State Department security messaging networks. So my degree was in managing electronics repair facilities, but I did all sorts of things just because a degree teaches you and exposes you to all sorts of things - as long as they are related, in my case to IT.

Again, it depends on the company and the job opening. But where do you want to be in 5 years. With that MCSA, you will likely be in the exact same place doing the exact same thing. You might be the "senior MCSA" in your group, but not likely a Manager. And in 10 years you won't be a Director or get into executive management.

Certs are great for right now and short time down the road. Degrees are for a lifetime.

When I was in the Air Force, doing radio repairs, I was certified to repair all sorts of UHF/VHF air traffic control radios but those certs became useless when the Air Force upgraded all their tower radios. I was certified to maintain Motorola HT220 radios, but that became useless when they were replaced. I went to school and became certified on Novell networks. But who uses Novell networking software anymore? But my degree has remained viable all this time and with my degree I have gained all sorts of experience that builds upon my degree.

Knowing how to fix radios nobody uses anymore does me no good.

Now of course, other types of certs can last a life time too. Dental Hygienist, for example. Though you may have to learn new technologies to clean someone's teeth, the dentist/employer will see to that. But where are you going to go from there in your career? No very far.

The big money is in directing the activities of others.

 

[Pill Monster]

What really helped me out was reviewing many of the CCNA/CCNP course documents and answering all the questions that they asked as best as I could. I learned much more on the job than I did doing any of my course work in college or certs.

I 100% percent agree.

No! That is totally wrong. This illustrates a common misconception among those without degrees what it means to have your 4 year degree.
A CompSci degree is NOT all about code crunching and math. That is a very narrow, tunnel vision look at it. Having your 4 year degree is much more than the "major" it represents. You must also take advanced English and writing courses, learn task management, do research papers, civics or social studies, more research, more papers and even speaking - all skills that you need to advance in your career for higher paying leadership and management jobs.

Wow, advanced English, speaking AND social studies too? Are u even listening to yourself?
People don't slog out 3 or 4 years of BSC to become an Administrator or Team Leader or learn English. You don't need a BSC for that. It's about number crunching, that's why people take it.

Most have some idea of where they want to go beforehand. Those who don't often end up dropping out.

A degree can carry you through 30, 40, 50 years of work.

Half the people I work with don't have degrees, let alone B.ComputerScience. They aren't concerned for their future. Nothing in IT lasts 50 years.

 

[broken pixel]

Ah! The corporate life working inside a cube farm.

Self employment FTW!

 

[Bill_Bright]

Wow, advanced English, speaking AND social studies too? Are u even listening to yourself?

It is you who, again, are not listening.

A full 4 year degree gives you a full rounded education - not your limited options, narrow focus, tunnel vision training you get with just certs.

They aren't concerned for their future.

And you see that as a good thing? I see that as being stupid! Either that or they are depending on some Daddy or Grandpa to die and getting an inheritance. Or they expect to live off Social Security (if you have something like that down there). Believe me, that would be stupid too - you cannot live off Social Security alone. That may not even be around when they retire.

Or they just feel entitled and will become burdens on societies.

People need to be working today so they can retire in comfort when they hit 65-70. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand life.

Nothing in IT lasts 50 years.

A degree does. Take your blinders off (or do you call them blinkers down there?). You just confirmed what I have been saying all along. Certs are for short term, degrees are for careers. If you think otherwise, then you don't understand the industry.

 

[Pill Monster]

That is exactly what I am saying and I didn't even have to install it. IBM sent their consultants in and installed the Tivoli software, made sure it worked, then left. Once installed, I was tasked to lead a team that consisted of folks with Tivoli certs. We then set up the software to monitor the entire distributive network, establish metrics, conduct the statistical analysis, create the training program, report status to executive managment, then train my replacement so I could go on the next product that I would manage. And that next job couldn't have been more different. I was then put in charge of building and maintaining 300 Windows 95 satellite weather and FAA flight plan submission terminals in 90+ general aviation airports in 9 states.

All the while, I was frequently called on to do alpha and beta testing for DoD and State Department security messaging networks. So my degree was in managing electronics repair facilities, but I did all sorts of things just because a degree teaches you and exposes you to all sorts of things - as long as they are related, in my case to IT.
.

IBM installed software on machines which were monitored by techs. Your job was to manage them.

Team leaders are normally the least technically minded people in the building, they don't need IT skills, they need organization skills.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Get an internship!!!!! You need experience not certs. IT experience looks way better to a potential employer than a certificate. All employers are willing to hire somebody who shows the ability to learn on the job and has the energy to take on bigger responsibilities. An internship shows that potential, a cert does not. If you get a job you can always ask your employer to pay for the certificate test which is a win/win. Just my two (very valuable) 2 cents.

 

[Pill Monster]

It is you who, again, are not listening.

A full 4 year degree gives you a full rounded education - not your limited options, narrow focus, tunnel vision training you get with just certs.

And you see that as a good thing? I see that as being stupid! Either that or they are depending on some Daddy or Grandpa to die and getting an inheritance. Or they expect to live off Social Security (if you have something like that down there). Believe me, that would be stupid too - you cannot live off Social Security alone. That may not even be around when they retire.

Or they just feel entitled and will become burdens on societies.

People need to be working today so they can retire in comfort when they hit 65-70. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand life.

A degree does. Take your blinders off (or do you call them blinkers down there?). You just confirmed what I have been saying all along. Certs are for short term, degrees are for careers. If you think otherwise, then you don't understand the industry.

Are you drunk or high ....or what - both??

This thread is about IT certification in the IT industry. Stop with the off topic semantics..

 

[satindemon4u]

Get an internship!!!!! You need experience not certs. IT experience looks way better to a potential employer than a certificate. All employers are willing to hire somebody who shows the ability to learn on the job and has the energy to take on bigger responsibilities. An internship shows that potential, a cert does not. If you get a job you can always ask your employer to pay for the certificate test which is a win/win. Just my two (very valuable) 2 cents.

This is my main goal honestly. If I could get an internship that would be perfect. Currently I would say that 95% of the jobs I see advertised are for something who has "1-3 years" or "3-5 years" of experience. Only the other 5% or so clearly state they want someone with certs. I just figured the certs may help give me a little bit of an edge over another person. I know that once I get the experience the rest will come rather easy. It's just that's the hardest part right now! It isn't the schooling or the certs it's the fact that I need someone, or a company rather, to give me the damn chance.

 

[Easy Rhino]

This is my main goal honestly. If I could get an internship that would be perfect. Currently I would say that 95% of the jobs I see advertised are for something who has "1-3 years" or "3-5 years" of experience. Only the other 5% or so clearly state they want someone with certs. I just figured the certs may help give me a little bit of an edge over another person. I know that once I get the experience the rest will come rather easy. It's just that's the hardest part right now! It isn't the schooling or the certs it's the fact that I need someone, or a company rather, to give me the damn chance.

Starting out is always tough in any industry. Especially in this job market where employers want somebody with a ton of experience just for an entry level position. Your school should have some sort of internship program that provides info on which local employers are hiring interns. You could probably get college credit for it as well. A lot of those employers will hire you if they like you enough. It is ALL ABOUT SHOWING INITIATIVE.

 

[brandonwh64]

Its pretty much like this. Every company does IT differently and you are not going to know everything about what and how they do things until you start your first day and observe. Many company's look at what you have done and how it relates to what they do in house. Even though I had a associates degree when interviewing for my current job, they only wanted to know about things I had done and wanted to know if I had experience in things they do.

 

[Jetster]

Formal degrees are just paper. You can teach a person the technical part. You cannot teach a good attitude or passion to work hard. Ive sen to many people with long resumes that have no common sense. If your attitude suck your worthless. First clue is they start talking about there degrees.

Now dont get me wrong. Being able to spell and speak well is a good start.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Team leaders are normally the least technically minded people in the building, they don't need IT skills, they need organization skills.

Normally? Sorry, but that is just being naïve. Are there some managers who don't know what they are doing? Sure - but they are the exceptions, not the rule. But that does not mean they cannot efficiently tell you what needs getting done - or verify it was done right either. I would much rather tell someone like you to go up into that old attic or nasty crawlspace and pull cables than me do it. I'll just test them when you are done to make sure you did it right - and get paid more in the process.

Team leaders don't get to be team leaders without climbing the ropes first - not in IT. As I said, I had to train them. And for me personally, I was an electronics technician for many years, a trainer, and even taught electronics before I finally woke up and got my degree. And not just a TV repair man, but someone who's signature on an equipment status report said that equipment was certified to be used in air traffic control - that is where lives mattered.

I've been on both side of the fence. As a certified electronics technician - a respectable job, but still I could only go so far with that and then hit the ceiling - in terms of position, responsibilities and pay. I have been in IS/IT support since 1972 when I graduated tech school. I have worked for the USAF, Sterling Software, Computer Associates, Logicon and Northrop Grumman IT supporting IT systems for several US states, the US government, and international organizations. I have been in 17 countries working with "locals" and their networks. I have a lot of first hand knowledge when it comes to jobs and careers in IT.

You are still stuck on the present and short term goals. One day, when you've been in the industry a bit more and see beyond your local environment, perhaps when you start to envision the future for your kids who are preparing for their futures (hopefully), and you realize the opportunities you didn't take advantage of, then you will see the light. Hopefully, you won't be too old to work, or have to worry about paying the rent, or paying for your medicine, or buying food.

Are you drunk or high ....or what - both??

Yeah, see, that's your way. You can't defend your position with facts or sound logic so you lash out with puerile personal affronts. Just like you did last time. So no more discussing this with you.

It is ALL ABOUT SHOWING INITIATIVE.

Excellent point! In fact that is why many companies have tuition assistance. The company I worked for even gave an automatic pay raise for graduates - and not chump change either. Then after that, they were in a better position to be selected for those leadership and project manager jobs when they opened.

@satindemon4u - BTW, congratulations on your AS! Obviously you see by now that I think you should use that permanent cornerstone to get your BS. If you back off now, time can slip away. If you really feel you need certs, ask potential employers what they are looking for - then go from there.

 

[Pill Monster]

Formal degrees are just paper. You can teach a person the technical part. You cannot teach a good attitude or passion to work hard. Ive sen to many people with long resumes that have no common sense. If your attitude suck your worthless. First clue is they start talking about there degrees.

Now dont get me wrong. Being able to spell and speak well is a good start.

Absolutely 100%. Narccissm is a known industry problem, and why sector sterotypes emerge, seems u already know.

Many employers make people skills a job requirement.

 

[satindemon4u]

Starting out is always tough in any industry. Especially in this job market where employers want somebody with a ton of experience just for an entry level position. Your school should have some sort of internship program that provides info on which local employers are hiring interns. You could probably get college credit for it as well. A lot of those employers will hire you if they like you enough. It is ALL ABOUT SHOWING INITIATIVE.

I haven't asked my school yet if they do an internship program and I really should. I haven't because I attend fully online. I am located in Michigan but attend the University of Massachusetts.

 

[satindemon4u]

@satindemon4u - BTW, congratulations on your AS! Obviously you see by now that I think you should use that permanent cornerstone to get your BS. If you back off now, time can slip away. If you really feel you need certs, ask potential employers what they are looking for - then go from there.

Thank you! I plan to get my BS no doubt. In fact, classes start for me in just a couple of weeks!

 

[Aquinus]

Thank you! I plan to get my BS no doubt. In fact, classes start for me in just a couple of weeks!

Out of curiosity, which campus? Lowell, Amherst, or Boston? Are you looking at moving back to Michigan when you're done or would you want to stay in the North East after you're done? I guess it might be a bit early to be asking that but, there are a lot of opportunities around here.

 

[Pill Monster]

Normally? Sorry, but that is just being naïve. Are there some managers who don't know what they are doing? Sure - but they are the exceptions, not the rule. But that does not mean they cannot efficiently tell you what needs getting done - or verify it was done right either. I would much rather tell someone like you to go up into that old attic or nasty crawlspace and pull cables than me do it. I'll just test them when you are done to make sure you did it right - and get paid more in the process

Fine have it your way. I was trying to be polite, instead I'll be specific.

The person with the least technical skills in your department is YOU.
And team leaders don't get paid more so don't give me that line of bullshit. They have a different job. I've worked for Datacom and Fujitsu, both huge companies.

Guess you've never seen an episode of The Office.





Edit:
If I'm to be brutally honest, you have a non-technical position in an entry level area of IT.
Cable installation and monitoring software is about the most entry level job available in the industry.

I'm familiar with what you do, in fact last year I accidentally replied to a job vacancy at a company which deals with cabling and monitoring.
About a week later the HR manager called me to ask why I had sent my resume in.
He said he'd received 450 applications and I was so overqualified for the position he couldn't understand why I had applied for it.

Not bragging, it's the honest truth.

It was because of my work history, not formal training.
I don't much about code or programming. At school I sucked at maths,
I can do hex and binary conversion. Hex is easy. I forget though since I never use it.........

 

[Tatty_Two]

Absolutely 100%. Narccissm is a known industry problem, and why sector sterotypes emerge, seems u already know.

Many employers make people skills a job requirement.

The problem is that "People Skills" are not really measurable in an application process and not quantitative in a CV/resume, you can get a feel for them at interview but that's all you get. Everyone's point about experience is spot on and all important but that does not change the importance of a good degree, it's called "Higher" education for a reason and is exactly that, it shows sustainability, commitment and a measurable knowledge point, I would suggest the best equipped out there would have the People skills, experience, certifications AND a good degree, if they have that package I would think they would be a more likely candidate to be a top exec at an IT related company 20 years down the line than someone without the degree but having said that, I don't think there is one prescriptive answer to the debates going on here.

 

[Pill Monster]

The problem is that "People Skills" are not really measurable in an application process and not quantitative in a CV/resume, you can get a feel for them at interview but that's all you get. Everyone's point about experience is spot on and all important but that does not change the importance of a good degree, it's called "Higher" education for a reason and is exactly that, it shows sustainability, commitment and a measurable knowledge point, I would suggest the best equipped out there would have the People skills, experience, certifications AND a good degree, if they have that package I would think they would be a more likely candidate to be a top exec at an IT related company 20 years down the line than someone without the degree but having said that, I don't think there is one prescriptive answer to the debates going on here.

I agree on all points.

I'm speaking in the context of the OP's question and Billbright claiming he came into IT without experience and got a high level technical job due to his outside degree. Those claims are ambiguous imho.

And no people skills are not the only requirement, nor did I mean it to sound that way.
It helps though, Tech can be learned.


But I hear what you're saying. Yes definitely.


** Possibly culture has a big influence on views. I mean different countries different opinions..?

 

[Tatty_Two]

I agree on all points.

I'm speaking in the context of the OP's question and Billbright claiming he came into IT without experience and got a high level technical job due to his outside degree. Those claims are ambiguous imho.

And no people skills are not the only requirement, nor did I mean it to sound that way.
It helps though, Tech can be learned.


But I hear what you're saying. Yes definitely.


** Possibly culture has a big influence on views. I mean different countries different opinions..?

Quite possibly, there are a lot of very talented people out there who have not got degrees, hell I was one of them until the Army made me do one, it's not the be all and end all, I just feel that in this case Certifications are great and enhance a degree but in long term career planning the degree is the cake, the certifications is the iceing. I do agree with you that it's not absolutely necessary though to do well.

 

[Aquinus]

I'm speaking in the context of the OP's question and Billbright claiming he came into IT without experience and got a high level technical job due to his outside degree. Those claims are ambiguous imho.

No way. We hired a sysadmin with a degree in engineering because he demonstrated the ability to learn and get the job done.

Quite possibly, there are a lot of very talented people out there who have not got degrees, hell I was one of them until the Army made me do one, it's not the be all and end all, I just feel that in this case Certifications are great and enhance a degree but in long term career planning the degree is the cake, the certifications is the iceing. I do agree with you that it's not absolutely necessary though to do well.

For Comp Sci, the degree is a much more of a foundation to build off of. You can learn to develop software and still not know 60% of what you would learn by getting a degree. There are some theoretical aspects that help you avoid certain problems or be able to identify something before it becomes a thing. Just as the name state, it's the science of computers, sometimes it's practical and applied and sometimes it's not but, as a developer you'll always be better for it.

There are things to be said for skills such as algorithm analysis and being able to mathematically calculate how long your code will (roughly,) take to run based on the operations being done. These things do have a purpose in the field and can make your life easier given the right task. Simple point is, you don't know what you're missing when you've never had it. I couldn't imagine doing my job now without that expertise.

Side note: I had minimal English courses to get my degree. It was mostly Comp Sci, Math, Science, and Philosophy with abundance in that order (most to least.)

 

[Pill Monster]

No way. We hired a sysadmin with a degree in engineering because he demonstrated the abil

Your post was cut off, but if you were going to say "ability to learn" then yeah I can see that happening in entry level position over there.
In NZ unless the company are specifically looking for graduates u can get in at the bottom work up.

Just goes to show how different our 2 cultures are. I almost feel sorry for you guys. lol

Actually just thinking about it, how does anyone without formal qualifications get a job over there?

What work can they do?

 

[Aquinus]

Your post was cut off, but if you were going to say "ability to learn" then yeah I can see that happening in entry level position over there.
In NZ unless the company are specifically looking for graduates u can get in at the bottom work up.

Just goes to show how different our 2 cultures are. I almost feel sorry for you guys. lol

The problem a lot of the time is that people aren't considering the job market before they get a degree which is a huge problem right now in the US (in my opinion.) Saying things like "I almost feel sorry for you guys," comes off as incredibly condescending and that's why arguments are cropping up so I would appreciate a little more respect if you're wanting respect in return. Either way, here in the US degrees tend to be valued a little more than certs but certs will compliment a degree.

Actually just thinking about it, how does anyone without formal qualifications get a job over there?

What work can they do?

They're not making much money, that's for sure. They're doing a job that any person off the street can do and earning close to minimum wage (while needing assistance from the state to get by.) This is getting into US politics and policy which is a really nasty can of worms to open though. Either way, I would appreciate a less condescending attitude, just because the US economy operates differently than NZ's does, doesn't mean it's less. I don't need to remind you what country has one of the highest GDPs in the world.

Side note: The state offers assistance in the form of student loans for people to get a higher education. The problem is people go for degrees that don't pay well then wonder why they can't pay off the debt.

 

[Pill Monster]

The problem a lot of the time is that people aren't considering the job market before they get a degree which is a huge problem right now in the US (in my opinion.) Saying things like "I almost feel sorry for you guys," comes off as incredibly condescending and that's why arguments are cropping up so I would appreciate a little more respect if you're wanting respect in return..

How is that condescending? When I said "you guys" I was talking about the entire country.
It must be hard for a lot of workers there....
What's condescending is the view no one can get a job without a degree.

Btw if you want respect from me, then quit mentioning your degree every 5 mins and making statements like "I work in the industry", it doesn't impress me.

Other than that we will get on fine.