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Intel Core i7-5960X Haswell-E CPU Question

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Why is there a hole on top of the processor where TIM is going to be applied on its surface?

 
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Simple answer: it doesn't matter. Apply paste, and stop worrying about it.


Long answer: I'm done doing the math for people, so I'm just going to hit on the concepts. This is bothering the crap out of me, so in the near future look for a tutorial thread I'm going to author.

Long story short, the IHS is soldered onto the actual die for Haswell-e. That mechanical connection is where heat is actually transferred, so the extra surface on the IHS isn't particularly useful in heat transfer. This is why a hole in the top corner isn't really significant.

If you delidded this particular chip (see pictures here:http://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Intel-Haswell-E-De-Lidded-Solder-Its-Thermal-Interface) you'd note that there is an open space where that hole is. While I can't give you a 100% accurate answer, I'd conjecture that it is designed to alleviate stresses from thermal expansion of the IHS. Those substantial thermal loads have a tendency to influence the IHS more than the Silicon, so it needs a place to expand and contract. Introduce a discontinuity, and those stresses have a place to be dissipated.


Edit:
Curse me and my grammar. Minor spelling fixes.
 
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Kinda makes sense, I wasn't worried about TIM getting inside the hole at all, just wanted to know of its reason for being there.
 
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Kinda makes sense, I wasn't worried about TIM getting inside the hole at all, just wanted to know of its reason for being there.

I was curious myself. Guess I just never had the bravery to ask when I owned a Haswell-E system, lol.
 

cadaveca

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it's to allow for air inside the IHS to expand out. I have re-pasted many CPUS with such holes countless times for board testing, and every once in a while I use toothpick to clean it out.
 
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it's to allow for air inside the IHS to expand out.
Right! It is for pressure equalization during the expansion and contraction that occurs during heat up and cool down cycles. I have also read it allows trapped fumes to escape from when the IHS was attached. Seems plausible.
 
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it's to allow for air inside the IHS to expand out. I have re-pasted many CPUS with such holes countless times for board testing, and every once in a while I use toothpick to clean it out.

@cadaveca , might I implore a second review of that assertion?

Looking at the mathematics, and assuming a standard atmosphere, the relation between Pressure, Temperature, and Volume is PV=nRT. If we assume that the IHS was solid, the Volume would be constant, which means the pressure would change directly with volume. As the IHS would be sealed during the soldering process, our CPU actually has an internal pressure less than the surrounding atmosphere (250C soldering, 20C atmospheric). If that hole was related to air pressure, it would have to be to return air to the area once the IHS solder cooled. This rather efficiently contradicts what you are saying.

On the other hand, it does reinforce why the mainstream line would have no hole. Researching backwards to SB, there has been no hole on the mainstream IHS offerings by Intel. That kinda kills the theory there, because SB was a soldered chip. You can't make the argument that IB/Haswell weren't soldered, therefore didn't require pressure equalization.



What we are left with is the question as to why there would be a hole on the enthusiast line? The only remaining factors are a much larger TDP, with a slightly larger die area. Because there are more cores, that means those discontinuous pockets of thermal expansion varying rather substantially. This is functionally a situation where thermal expansion varies wildly with location, creating stresses within the IHS that could likely shatter the mechanical bond that the solder forms. In comes a discontinuity to the IHS. That hole can dissipate stresses by changing their concentration and flexing differently based upon the hole's geometry.

So, the counter-argument asks why it's where it is and why is it so small? First off, wikipedia does a decent enough job describing stress concentration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration Basically, a very small discontinuity does an excellent job of concentrating stresses. Additionally, the geometry of stresses within the heatsink (largely planar) mean that any one discontinuity will influence the entire surface.

We've established why it just being a pressure release is rather unlikely, without even asking whether it would actually breathe. I mean, the IHS should be covered by both a heatsink surface, and thermal paste. The implication would be that the pressure differential between the CPU air and surrounding air would be enough to actually blow the thermal paste out of the way, right? I'm not sure how this is possible, after you stated clearly that you needed to clean the material out of the holes.



Am I missing something critical here? I've tried to attack the problem as "it's just a pressure equalization hole" before, but the facts don't seem to jibe with that assertion. The thermal loading, as described above, is all I've ever been able to mentally justify. If that's demonstrably incorrect, I'd love to know where my logic jumped the rails.
 
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@cadaveca , might I implore a second review of that assertion?

Looking at the mathematics, and assuming a standard atmosphere, the relation between Pressure, Temperature, and Volume is PV=nRT. If we assume that the IHS was solid, the Volume would be constant, which means the pressure would change directly with volume. As the IHS would be sealed during the soldering process, our CPU actually has an internal pressure less than the surrounding atmosphere (250C soldering, 20C atmospheric). If that hole was related to air pressure, it would have to be to return air to the area once the IHS solder cooled. This rather efficiently contradicts what you are saying.

On the other hand, it does reinforce why the mainstream line would have no hole. Researching backwards to SB, there has been no hole on the mainstream IHS offerings by Intel. That kinda kills the theory there, because SB was a soldered chip. You can't make the argument that IB/Haswell weren't soldered, therefore didn't require pressure equalization.



What we are left with is the question as to why there would be a hole on the enthusiast line? The only remaining factors are a much larger TDP, with a slightly larger die area. Because there are more cores, that means those discontinuous pockets of thermal expansion varying rather substantially. This is functionally a situation where thermal expansion varies wildly with location, creating stresses within the IHS that could likely shatter the mechanical bond that the solder forms. In comes a discontinuity to the IHS. That hole can dissipate stresses by changing their concentration and flexing differently based upon the hole's geometry.

So, the counter-argument asks why it's where it is and why is it so small? First off, wikipedia does a decent enough job describing stress concentration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration Basically, a very small discontinuity does an excellent job of concentrating stresses. Additionally, the geometry of stresses within the heatsink (largely planar) mean that any one discontinuity will influence the entire surface.

We've established why it just being a pressure release is rather unlikely, without even asking whether it would actually breathe. I mean, the IHS should be covered by both a heatsink surface, and thermal paste. The implication would be that the pressure differential between the CPU air and surrounding air would be enough to actually blow the thermal paste out of the way, right? I'm not sure how this is possible, after you stated clearly that you needed to clean the material out of the holes.



Am I missing something critical here? I've tried to attack the problem as "it's just a pressure equalization hole" before, but the facts don't seem to jibe with that assertion. The thermal loading, as described above, is all I've ever been able to mentally justify. If that's demonstrably incorrect, I'd love to know where my logic jumped the rails.


i'm having trouble processing all that
 
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i'm having trouble processing all that

Short and stupid terms (not meant as an insult, but an explanation for lack of nuance).

Soldering the CPU heats it up to somewhere near 200C. At that point, air is less dense. IHS seals while being soldered, so IHS is sealed with less actual air than would be present at STP. If the holes were for air, it would be to let air back in after the soldering.

SB, IB, and Haswell (mainstream) didn't have the hole. SB was soldered (IB/Haswell being that crap paste), so the air pressure equalization is out of the picture.

If the hole isn't for air pressure, it must be for something else. Given the large number of cores, 50C temperature differential, and only being present on high end chips the next most logical answer is thermal loading stress dissipation.
 
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I could be wrong but not all are soldered. I believe some use adhesive TIM (thermal interface material), IIRC. So they would not need a hole for pressure equalization or to let soldering fumes/residues out.
 

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P4 had that hole on s478. Those chips were not soldered.
 
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cdawall

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It is not the chips, but the heat spreader with the hole.

Let me clarify. s478 Pentium 4 processors contain a hole on the integrated heat spreader (IHS). The die of the 130nm northwood or 90nm prescott CPU's, were not soldered to the IHS. The PCB that the die lives on has no hole in s478.

If you need further clarification refer to this picture

 
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Let me clarify. s478 Pentium 4 processors contain a hole on the integrated heat spreader (IHS). The die of the 130nm northwood or 90nm prescott CPU's, were not soldered to the IHS. The PCB that the die lives on has no hole in s478.

If you need further clarification refer to this picture


Please allow me to ask the question, what does any of this prove?

I'm not being an ass, but I can't put it into context.


In one instance, we've got a chip with an adhesive holding the IHS on to it (pentium 4).
In another instance we've got adhesives not being vented (IB and Haswell).
In yet another instance we've got soldered chips being vented (SB-e, IB-e, and Haswell-e).
Finally, we've got a non-vented chips that was soldered (SB).


I was under the impression that my answer made sense, yet it appears as though it is contradicted. Likewise, the pressure equalization theory seems to be inadequate. Back to the drawing board I supposed.

Anyone else have a compelling answer to explain this?




Edit:
Forgot the "-e" on enthusiast Haswell. Rectified.
 

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i7 920 didn't have the hole either, and I believe that was soldered (and it was on the x58 platform, which was the previous-generation equivalent of SB-E, IB-E, and Haswell-E). So we have it on the old s478 chips, and then never to be seen again (to my knowledge) until SB-E where it remained up until what we have for the current HEDT platform, Haswell-E. In addition to wondering what it's for in the first place, my question is why did we have it for s478, then never see it until SB-E? And, why would SB-E (and on from there) have it while x58 chips did not?

-ed If it's for differences in pressure from gases released by epoxy and whatnot, why has it been absent from so many soldered chips until recently?
 

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Epoxy was not used to hold the lid onto later chips they merely had thermal paste. This backed up by how you delidded the processors. Even as early as LGA775 this was seen.

My assumption is IB and haswell use a different epoxy almost 2 decades after northwood and prescott.
 

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I thought s775 was soldered?
 

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I thought s775 was soldered?

I have delidded a couple celerons cut the glue holding the IHS and peel it back safely. Could be different on other processors, but that would be pretty universal for any prescott.
 

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What about C2D? I recall the only delidding that was done was if you jammed razor blades in there and used a torch, but that might have been something else lost in the sea of memories.

I do recall vividly however one guy sanding a Q6600 down to the cores...
 
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What about C2D? I recall the only delidding that was done was if you jammed razor blades in there and used a torch, but that might have been something else lost in the sea of memories.

I do recall vividly however one guy sanding a Q6600 down to the cores...

I really think you should review the list I linked to. It includes a lot of pertinent information.

First off, the Celerons were epoxy. Not all the Core2 processors were soldered (though some were). Additionally, they spoke about the soldered delidding process. Anyone with enough brass balls to take a lighter to their CPU is likely to click when they walk.



Unfortunately, we're back to the original question. The hole doesn't seem related to epoxy vs. soldering. It doesn't seem relevant to anything else discussed. I'd love to invoke Occam's razor and just say this is a design choice by manufacturing, but even that is a wild stab in the dark.

I'll concede, the answer isn't as clear as I thought. Anyone have an official explanation for modern choices, beyond the epoxy one linked to for much older processors?
 

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I'll concede, the answer isn't as clear as I thought. Anyone have an official explanation for modern choices, beyond the epoxy one linked to for much older processors?
What you are missing is the power draw of those chips. Once the power draw exceeds a certain level, the chips get a hole. The same applies for the solder question...
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Sandybridge bunks that hypothesis, no? Sealed and low wattage.
 
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Benchmark Scores >9000
What about i7 920 and other x58 chips then it's 130W TDP... no hole
 
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