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FordGT90Concept

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Models ran 10 years ago haven't been very accurate in predicting what is happening today (exceptions being the really simple ones like atmospheric CO2 levels). What leads you to believe that the models being used today are any more accurate about what will be happening in 2025? New models and new systems for processing them are required. This is why I focus on past data (like GFDL concluding no changes in tropical cyclone activity yet) and not future data which so far has been notoriously inaccurate. "For now" there is no link between the two; only an assumption there will be a link in the future. Said differently, no link has been proven so there is nothing yet to "disprove."
 
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Models ran 10 years ago haven't been very accurate in predicting what is happening today (exceptions being the really simple ones like atmospheric CO2 levels). What leads you to believe that the models being used today are any more accurate about what will be happening in 2025? New models and new systems for processing them are required. This is why I focus on past data (like GFDL concluding no changes in tropical cyclone activity yet) and not future data which so far has been notoriously inaccurate. "For now" there is no link between the two; only an assumption there will be a link.

Did I cite a 10 year old model?

The models from the 90's that I cited were later corroborated with data, and subsequent models largely proved their conclusions were accurate. They didn't make specific predictions, they cited trends. Storms will be more severe. Precipitation has changed from historic records. They utilize their information to predict trends, because accurately predicting actual weather is laughable.


As far as model accuracy, you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. Because past models needed tweaking, our current models don't matter. That's dismissing science which doesn't agree with your preconceptions. Models are built on data, data is harvested over time, therefore models evolve over time. It's pretty foolish to dismiss all models, and supplant them with whatever you think is accurate. Do I think the models will be the same in a decade, no. Do they offer us a look at the possible future given our knowledge, yes.

If your logic were extrapolated to particle physics we'd never have moved to quantum mechanics. Our observable world runs by these rules, and as we get smaller the rules change. People would have decided that all of physics was wrong because of something as relatively simple as black body radiation, and stated Newtonian motion was therefore wrong. Seems rather foolish in those terms, but it's what you're suggesting we do with climate data until a unifying supercomputer can model all of it. I'd prefer a 90% answer today, than no answer for a decade.
 

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Named Cyclones by Year

United States Weather Bureau was founded in 1870 (note the jump). The first radiosonde was used by the United States Weather Bureau in 1937. Flights into tropical storms and hurricanes did not start until 1943 with the Hurricane Hunters. Weather RADARs were developed and used in the 1950s and on. Satellites were used since the 1960s.

The only solidly consistent data is from the 1960s onward. Prior to the 1960s, many systems went undetected. There are two clear trends in that period: 1970-1994 was a "quiet period" and 1995-2010 was an "active period." Since then, we've been in a "quiet period" again. I tried to do some digging and I haven't turned out any theories for what caused that.

Going back to GFDL, evidence for warming-linked hurricanes exists in the "active period" but does not exist in the "quiet period" before and after. This is why their findings are inconclusive. The mechanism between the two periods is not yet known; hence, this statement:
It is premature to conclude that human activities--and particularly greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming--have already had a detectable impact on Atlantic hurricane or global tropical cyclone activity. That said, human activities may have already caused changes that are not yet detectable due to the small magnitude of the changes or observational limitations, or are model-estimated changes with considerable uncertainty (e.g., aerosol effects).
That is the natural conclusion seeing the data. There are trends but they don't appear to be linked.

You're focusing on the models which are still designed to predict increases in tropical cyclone activity. We have no way of judging--right now--if those models are remotely accurate or not. Considering the last part of what I quoted, GFDL displays a great deal of uncertainty.

The reason why Boulder Labs and supercomputer technology is important is it can potentially fill the gaps in models that are currently missing. The effect of albedo on surface temperatures is the principle goal of Boulder Labs' work. That's a massive component that's missing from hurricane models: we have a good idea of water temperature and air temperature but not of the storm's absorption/reflection of solar energy and how that translates to the overall power of the system.
 
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I'm getting tired of this, and you really don't seem to want to make any concessions to the facts that are presented by your own sources. Continuing to argue, when the intention of words is lost to quibbles over a desired interpretation is draining.

If you'd like to continue on, go ahead. I'm tired of having to define every single word, untwist grammatical constructs used to justify your points despite what is presented, and positive denial of what is being presented.


You win. You win because relenting is the only rational thing to do here. I'm tired of fighting the denial nuts, the tree hugging nuts, and those who have such a rigidity of thought that they can see a meaning to words that their organization doesn't imply to an unbiased mind. Wait for the supercomputer to model the data, I'm going to spend the weekend volunteering in South Carolina's relief effort.
 
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qute of a fragment of a post some postes above " The only solidly consistent data is from the 1960s onward. Prior to the 1960s, many systems went undetected. There are two clear trends in that period: 1970-1994 was a "quiet period" and 1995-2010 was an "active period." Since then, we've been in a "quiet period" again. I tried to do some digging and I haven't turned out any theories for what caused that."unquote
Its not easy tweaking seosors ,and establising methodoligies?
 

FordGT90Concept

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I had a lot here but discovered it has already been done.
Overview
Detailed Timeline

TL;DR: The graph trends upwards to 1935 not because the number of tropical storms necessarily grew but our capability to detect and record them did. I quote:
NOAA said:
1935: A hurricane warning service is established; The Smithsonian Institution begins making long-range weather forecasts based on solar cycles; floating automatic weather instruments mounted on buoys begin collecting marine weather data.
Excepting 1983 (which was an abnormally quiet year) and 2005 (which was an abnormally active year) activity has been pretty steady (relatively speaking).
 
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I had a lot here but discovered it has already been done.
Overview
Detailed Timeline

TL;DR: The graph trends upwards to 1935 not because the number of tropical storms necessarily grew but our capability to detect and record them did. I quote:

Excepting 1983 (which was an abnormally quiet year) and 2005 (which was an abnormally active year) activity has been pretty steady (relatively speaking).

I'm calling weasel bullshit here. I'm calling it, and I'm going back on my earlier comment. Seeing this is getting me pissed off enough to make a liar out of myself.


The argument was whether or not the severity of hurricanes was influenced by changes to the climate. We agreed on utilizing GFDL as a source, because it is reasonably unbiased in findings. We even agreed that the number of hurricanes was largely consistent, based upon the data.


I argued that severity was increasing. You argued that the link was tenuous. I argued that your own factual source, at least half a dozen articles, proved your point was inaccurate. You weasel out of the argument by interpreting the intention of a scientific report, rather than using the words they put to paper. You aren't an honest operator here, you're coming into the debate with an agenda that you need to prove, no matter how you have to twist the words in order to come to the conclusion you want.



I was willing to stop there. It's frustrating when your opposition bogs down the argument by playing the "define every word and give it full context" tactic. It's designed for idiots, who know that their points aren't strong enough to stand on their own, without adding enough caveats. Utilizing that logic, you can make anything mean anything with enough twisting. I wanted to stop here, because you don't have an argument. You have a massive time sink. I was fine to stop here.

You follow up my last comment, with a chart of the number of hurricanes. You add the caveats that the last 40 years of data is all that we have with certainty, and you graph the number of events without any metric for severity (naming isn't a metric, a class 3 and 5 could both be named). You use this data to "prove" that the earlier statements are correct, only instead of focusing on where the scientists themselves put the emphasis, you create an outright lie to justify the conclusion you want.

Bullshit.


Either you're a liar, or an idiot. I can't reasonably call you an idiot, so you're a liar. Whether it's dishonesty to yourself, or just inability to recognize the lie, it doesn't matter. Read the data, then read their conclusions once more. Here's a refresher:
  • It is premature to conclude that human activities--and particularly greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming--have already had a detectable impact on Atlantic hurricane or global tropical cyclone activity. That said, human activities may have already caused changes that are not yet detectable due to the small magnitude of the changes or observational limitations, or are model-estimated changes with considerable uncertainty (e.g., aerosol effects).
  • Anthropogenic warming by the end of the 21st century will likely cause tropical cyclones globally to be more intense on average (by 2 to 11% according to model projections for an IPCC A1B scenario). This change would imply an even larger percentage increase in the destructive potential per storm, assuming no reduction in storm size.
  • There are better than even odds that anthropogenic warming over the next century will lead to an increase in the occurrence of very intense tropical cyclone in some basins—an increase that would be substantially larger in percentage terms than the 2-11% increase in the average storm intensity. This increase in intense storm occurrence is projected despite a likely decrease (or little change) in the global numbers of all tropical cyclones.
  • Anthropogenic warming by the end of the 21st century will likely cause tropical cyclones to have substantially higher rainfall rates than present-day ones, with a model-projected increase of about 10-15% for rainfall rates averaged within about 100 km of the storm center.

Your data proves just one part of that conclusion:
This increase in intense storm occurrence is projected despite a likely decrease (or little change) in the global numbers of all tropical cyclones.

Despite this very clear link, you've bastardized your data to mean that points 3 and 4 are somehow inaccurate. You look at the data and conclusions from your own source, written clear as day, and come to the opposite conclusion. I can only assume you're a liar. Idiots would have cited Fox News and the GOP. You've gone out of your way to cite credible bodies, yet jettison their conclusions when they don't fit your notions. It takes a feat of mental gymnastics akin to the truthers to look at all of the presented information, and somehow come to the conclusion you've come to.




Now I'm done. I have nothing else worth saying, because a dishonest player isn't worth having an argument with. A decade ago I argued that Global Warming was a scam, because the scientific data disproved it. Today I argue that climate change is real, and it is influencing the severity of weather phenomena. The scientific research agrees with me, and it's been proven by both the facts you've provided and the conclusions that scientists have put to academic papers. To state the opposite, based upon potential future proof from a new supercomputer, is just idiotic. Worse yet, what happens if your supercomputer agrees with the facts already presented? After this much mental gymnastics, I'd be hard pressed to see you not calling it bunk because the input data was limited.

Kinda seems like part of your earlier argument was also based off of the "potential" statement making the conclusion irrelevant. Ironically, your whole argument is based upon the potential of a new super computer. I'll be generous here, and call that unintentional duplicity.

If you're going to argue a point with science you have to accept data as facts. Whenever the data is reviewed, you can interpret it however you'd like. If you're going to argue a deep seated and irreversible belief, and guise it in the mask of science, you can stop talking now. The religious guise creationism in "intelligent design." Climate change denial guises their argument in "limited or potentially corrupt data." Somehow though, climate change deniers are always quick to offer facts that support their side. That's implicit bias, in the arena of the hard sciences, makes you worse than a half-wit. Leave biases at the door, or don't use science. You've demonstrated a massive twisting of words, blatantly cherry picking quotations, and offering unrelated facts as "proof." I can't argue with a zealot, because there is no end game. There is no reason. There is only a point, to which reality shall bend in its service.
 

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This should make it clearer what I was talking about:

Note the jump up between 1869 and 1870; also note the jump up between 1934 and 1935. I was explaining how those jumps were benign.

I'm still surprised how consistent it is from the period of 1935 to 1960. They must have had a lot of assets to track down storms.

GFDL focused on hurricanes since 1950 but they reference as far back as 1878. I'll quote GFDL on this since they practically took the words out of my mouth:
NOAA GFDL said:
However, the density of reporting ship traffic over the Atlantic was relatively sparse during the early decades of this record, such that if storms from the modern era (post 1965) had hypothetically occurred during those earlier decades, a substantial number would likely not have been directly observed by the ship-based "observing network of opportunity." We find that, after adjusting for such an estimated number of missing storms, there is a small nominally positive upward trend in tropical storm occurrence from 1878-2006. But statistical tests reveal that this trend is so small, relative to the variability in the series, that it is not significantly distinguishable from zero (Figure 2).
Here's something I didn't surmise from that chart:
NOAA GFDL said:
In addition, Landsea et al. (2010) note that the rising trend in Atlantic tropical storm counts is almost entirely due to increases in short-duration (<2 day) storms alone. Such short-lived storms were particularly likely to have been overlooked in the earlier parts of the record, as they would have had less opportunity for chance encounters with ship traffic.
Another important quote:
NOAA GFDL said:
Owing to the large interannual to decadal variability of SST and hurricane activity in the basin, Bender et al (2010) estimate that detection of this projected anthropogenic influence on hurricanes should not be expected for a number of decades. While there is a large rising trend since the mid 1940's in category 4-5 numbers in the Atlantic, our view is that these data are not reliable for trend calculations, until they have been further assessed for data homogeneity problems, such as those due to changing observing practices.
So...I'm just going to wait a few more decades and see what GFDL and Boulder Labs turn up.


I like how they use the phrase "greenhouse warming" instead of "global warming." It's much more accurate.



@lilhasselhoffer: The last three bullets I have largely ignored are all based on IPCC's models. I have zero faith in those models. I also have my doubts about point #3 because if you read it, they take two models that cap out at an intensity of category 3, stretch them to reach category 5 (which are infrequent) then apply their new model to create projections to 2100. So, alarmist IPCC data on top of a model that deliberately deviates from the historic record and you get those numbers. They're job is to project so I don't blame them for doing what they did but, again, I cite that last quote: "detection of this projected anthropogenic influence on hurricanes should not be expected for a number of decades." We won't know if their models are correct--or far from it--for many years yet. I focus on what we know and what we do know shows no connection, whatsoever, between hurricanes and "greenhouse warming." In fact, they expand the "unknown" to include many more areas like aerosols and volcanic activity. More research is needed but rewinding to why I originally quoted you:
Is climate change real? Demonstrably, yes. We're getting more, and more severe, storms that at any time in the recorded past.
"More severe storms" compared to "the recorded past" is "demonstrably" false.

We've been talking a lot about sea cyclones; the same is true of land cyclones:


I see decreasing intensity here, not increasing. GFDL is likely asking the same questions of tornadoes as they are of hurricanes. Note that these graphs start with the Army using RADAR for weather; it doesn't have the confusing pre-RADAR data. Observations are also better because people often live where tornadoes form and, if they don't, there's evidence a tornado was there.


I get it. You're upset that a hurricane landed close to home. It's very upsetting but it's easy to declare the world is on fire standing right next to a forest fire. Take a step back, look at the bigger picture, and greenhouse warming doesn't paint a severe weather picture. It could in the future but right now it simply doesn't. What happened to South Carolina, New York, New Orleans, and New Jersey was a case of probability.
 
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I think I'm going to unsub. I have to side with @lilhasselhoffer on this one. I don't appreciate context-sensitive claims to how things are worded. It's an example of a bad argument.

I think I'm going to stick to listening to people I know who are actually meteorologists with degrees on the matter and can describe this stuff. Knowing a bit about Ford's political views, it doesn't surprise me that he remains a climate change denier.

Lastly, climate change doesn't simply mean more catastrophic events, it does mean more significant storms. That doesn't mean hurricanes and tornadoes are going to be relatively stronger but, thing like rainfall; how often and how much, probably is a better indicator. Once again though, none of these trends are going to simply up or down just because of how dynamic the atmosphere is but, that doesn't mean it isn't changing and that we're not responsible for accelerating it.

A great example of this is rainfall totals. There are bigger swings than there used to be between mins and maxes. So while strong storms might not be much stronger or more frequent but, the amount of precipitation has been impacted in a way where it can be very dry or very wet but, standard deviation seems to be growing over time which would indicate that there are periods of time where there is extra rain fall and less rainfall depending on the location.

Either way, this conversation is getting a little stupid and I need to disconnect myself from it before I start saying things about people's intelligence that will land me an infraction.
 
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I think I'm going to stick to listening to people I know who are actually meteorologists with degrees on the matter and can describe this stuff. Knowing a bit about Ford's political views, it doesn't surprise me that he remains a climate change denier.
This "matter" is above meteorology pay grade. The "matter" is about modeling fluids to fill in observational gaps as well as analyzing historic trends.

"Climate change denier," that statement pisses me off to no end. To quote myself on the last page:
I've said numerous times in this thread that the climate is always changing.


A great example of this is rainfall totals. There are bigger swings than there used to be between mins and maxes. So while strong storms might not be much stronger or more frequent but, the amount of precipitation has been impacted in a way where it can be very dry or very wet but, standard deviation seems to be growing over time which would indicate that there are periods of time where there is extra rain fall and less rainfall depending on the location.
Your second statement is false. Greenhouse warming causes the temperature not to fall as much at night. Mins are higher, maxes are slightly higher. Source. Most sources (including that one), say total global precipitation is increasing and I pointed at that in post #744 (the original response to @lilhasselhoffer):
Precipitation may be increasing but could easily be caused by pollution rather than climate. Vapor tends to condense around particulate matter and that's undeniably increased since the industrial age.
GFDL article that has been referenced here many times (revised in 2015) brings into question aerosols and other pollutants. The increased precipitation is likely a combination of more heat (promotes evaporation) and more particulates (promotes condensation). Modeling of particulates isn't very mature yet so the jury is still out on that.


Only 1 (precipitation) of 4 (precipitation, tornadoes, hurricanes and can't ever remember the fourth) extreme weather events can be linked to greenhouse warming at this time. I've made that statement several times throughout this thread as well--it is still true and will likely remain true for decades yet.
 
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Knowing a bit about Ford's political views, it doesn't surprise me that he remains a climate change denier.
:toast:And...the cat is out of the bag! Glad you understand this man-made global warming scam is ALL about politics!:rockout:
 

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Only 1 (precipitation) of 4 (precipitation, tornadoes, hurricanes and can't ever remember the fourth)

another one is the Methane Cloud expressed by Climatologist as they Spout their opinion (one Side or the other )
This Thread deserves to die it unfortunately has not
 

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This thread still exists?

This pains me.
 

FordGT90Concept

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Think of it as the TPU recycle bin where everything remotely related to climate gets dumped. ;)
 

FordGT90Concept

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I was thinking a few days ago that if the arctic ice cap continues to melt and the climate of northern Canada, Russia, Alaska, and Scandinavia warms, does that not also mean that vegetation would follow it? This should, in turn, translate to more CO2 is removed from the atmosphere on a yearly basis where atmospheric CO2 is increasing the most. I think, instead of trying to paint CO2 as bad and a global effort to limit it, we should instead take the Teddy Roosevelt approach and try to protect the havens for vegetation (especially forests and jungles). Examples would be to put pressure on South American countries to not continue to destroy the forests, pass regulations to limit human expansion behind the vegetation expanding north, and reinstating Dust Bowl-like policies that encouraged landowners to grow trees. The global goal should be a net growth in CO2 reclamation per square mile. This is a much more attainable and practical goal; it also serves near immediate benefits in terms of wild life.
 
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I was thinking a few days ago that if the arctic ice cap continues to melt and the climate of northern Canada, Russia, Alaska, and Scandinavia warms, does that not also mean that vegetation would follow it? This should, in turn, translate to more CO2 is removed from the atmosphere on a yearly basis where atmospheric CO2 is increasing the most. I think, instead of trying to paint CO2 as bad and a global effort to limit it, we should instead take the Teddy Roosevelt approach and try to protect the havens for vegetation (especially forests and jungles). Examples would be to put pressure on South American countries to not continue to destroy the forests, pass regulations to limit human expansion behind the vegetation expanding north, and reinstating Dust Bowl-like policies that encouraged landowners to grow trees. The global goal should be a net growth in CO2 reclamation per square mile. This is a much more attainable and practical goal; it also serves near immediate benefits in terms of wild life.

You're missing the part where you melt the icecaps and start a new iceage from the shutdown of the ocean conveyor system.

Gah, how are you drawing me into this?!
 

FordGT90Concept

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The ocean conveyors are solar powered. Cold fresh water hitting the salty ocean water causes temporary changes but, ultimately, the power of the sun will reign again.

Should the arctic ice cap literally be no more, polar species will likely go extinct (like the polar bear) so the picture I painted isn't entirely rosy.

Gah, how are you drawing me into this?!
Because it's an interesting thought? :)
 
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I was thinking a few days ago that if the arctic ice cap continues to melt and the climate of northern Canada, Russia, Alaska, and Scandinavia warms, does that not also mean that vegetation would follow it? This should, in turn, translate to more CO2 is removed from the atmosphere on a yearly basis where atmospheric CO2 is increasing the most. I think, instead of trying to paint CO2 as bad and a global effort to limit it, we should instead take the Teddy Roosevelt approach and try to protect the havens for vegetation (especially forests and jungles). Examples would be to put pressure on South American countries to not continue to destroy the forests, pass regulations to limit human expansion behind the vegetation expanding north, and reinstating Dust Bowl-like policies that encouraged landowners to grow trees. The global goal should be a net growth in CO2 reclamation per square mile. This is a much more attainable and practical goal; it also serves near immediate benefits in terms of wild life.

Thousands of square miles of rainforest is cleared in the Amazon each year to make way for farming land - a pattern of destruction that takes place all around the world.
But despite this, the planet has got greener in the past decade, with the total amount of plant coverage increasing overall.
The increase is so noticeable that the world's trees and plants now store almost four billion more tonnes of carbon than they did in 2003.
This is thanks to tree-planting in China, forest regrowth in former Soviet states because of abandoned farms, and more lush savannas because of higher rainfall.

Scientists analysed 20 years of satellite data and found an increase in carbon, despite ongoing large-scale tropical deforestation in Brazil and Indonesia, according to research published on Monday in Nature Climate Change.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ers-reveals-huge-expansion-world-s-trees.html

And to debunk this 97% B.S. once and for all... The “97 percent” statistic first appeared prominently in a 2009 study by University of Illinois master’s student Kendall Zimmerman and her adviser, Peter Doran. Based on a two-question online survey, Zimmerman and Doran concluded that “the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific bases of long-term climate processes” — even though only 5 percent of respondents, or about 160 scientists, were climate scientists. In fact, the “97 percent” statistic was drawn from an even smaller subset: the 79 respondents who were both self-reported climate scientists and had “published more than 50% of their recent peer-reviewed papers on the subject of climate change.” These 77 scientists agreed that global temperatures had generally risen since 1800, and that human activity is a “significant contributing factor.”

http://www.ff.org/the-97-percent-solution/
 
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FordGT90Concept

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The problem is that, due to the way the Earth rotates and the way the sun hits it, North and South Hemispheres generally don't mix air unless a tropical storm passes through.

It takes a long time for CO2 average to decrease because they absorb a lot during spring and summer but dump a lot back in fall. Deforestation a century ago may be contributing to higher than normal CO2 levels now in the northern hemisphere so the deforestation in the Amazon may lead to higher than normal CO2 levels in the southern hemisphere a century from now. It's the aggregate we have to look at--not short term.

I think the millions of acres especially in Canada and Russia that turn from white to green would be massive compared to the change noted from Russia farms and China trying to combat smog. The equatorial jungles and forests may also spread north assuming the precipitation levels maintain.
 

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More gasoline on the fire:

German Scientist Accused NASA of ‘Massive’ Temperature Alterations

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bar...t-accuses-nasa-massive-alteration-temperature

In a presentation at the 2012 EIKE Climate Conference in Germany, Professor Friedrich-Karl Ewert, a retired geologist and data expert from the University of Paderborn, said that he examined publicly available archived temperature records from 1,153 weather stations around the globe going back to 1881 and found evidence of “massive” tampering by GISS between 2010 and 2012.

Ewert noticed that “the temperature data of Reykjavik [Iceland] and Nuuk Nuur [Greenland] had been changed retroactively,” veteran German television journalist Gunter Ederer writes. The 2012 data was higher than the temperatures recorded before 2010.
 
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