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Oil filled water cooling loop?

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cadaveca

My name is Dave
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Give me the conversion units for BTU to Watts.

Can't do it. The reason you can't is that BTU measures an amount of energy, and Watts measures a momentary usage of energy at a specific time.


Uh, 1 BTU roughly equals 3.413 W? It's not a direct conversion, but still possible. One fo those things you are required to remember as a HVAC engie
 
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Uh, 1 BTU roughly equals 3.413 W? It's not a direct conversion, but still possible. One fo those things you are required to remember as a HVAC engie

You might have been cheated out of a degree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt - Note that unit is given as Joules/second.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_thermal_unit - Note that the unit is converted to approximately 1055 Joules

Show me a conversion that converts the unit (J/s) into the unit J.

This is fundamental stuff here.


Now, what I think is that you made a critical error that can be easily rectified.
KWh is a measurement of (J/s)*s = J
1 KWh = 3412.14 BTU


I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that's what you meant to convert. Again though, this is a unit of total energy. It's only useful if you have a static start and end situation. Water cooling isn't static, it's dynamic. HVAC calculations are two or three lines because they assume static situations. Once you start working in dynamics everything gets much more difficult.

Would you care to take another go at this, and apologize? I can see you trying the math again, but given the ego demonstrated I'll not be holding my breath on you actually demonstrating that you are a "better man" as you so claim.


Edit:
bruh chill its just internets why u heff to be mad?

This stems from a couple of earlier discussions. I linked to the one on water cooling, but the more difficult one is where I stated that my experience differed from what people "conventionally" think. I was told I was wrong, and told to believe because Cadaveca knew better than me.

I asked for proof, and was told I should just believe. I should just believe because of qualifications tangentially related to the topic. I rejected said notion, and asked for proof, but was told I knew nothing and should just shut up.

I'm tired of the mushroom treatment. I'm told someone knows more, so I should listen, but they never want to prove it. I nail them in factually incorrect statements, and their response is to say "U mad bro?" I'm tired of people saying factually ignorant shit, and more tired of being told to shut up and believe. Stupid is stupid. If nobody else has the fortitude to call bullshit out on what it is, I'm going to make it my business.
 
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cadaveca

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Would you care to take another go at this, and apologize? I can see you trying the math again, but given the ego demonstrated I'll not be holding my breath on you actually demonstrating that you are a "better man" as you so claim.
I never said I was the better man... you chose to read it that way.
 
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I never said I was the better man... you chose to read it that way.

And the ninja edit to remove the comment specifically about that. Kudos. It's like talking to the living embodiment of bullshit.

Edit:
Isn't it amazing. When I quote your posts, they are static in my response. It's like there's a record of exactly what you said, despite your editing. Care to not try and feed me some more crap?
 

cadaveca

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And the ninja edit to remove the comment specifically about that. Kudos. It's like talking to the living embodiment of bullshit.

ROFL.

I didn't edit anything. So yeah.... you were saying...


Best re-read that post you should.

And no, it didn't spawn out of nothing but you posting that all rads will have 1-2 difference between inlet/outlet. That is all I refuted, while you tried to obfuscate.
 
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ROFL.

I didn't edit anything. So yeah.... you were saying...

I was incorrect. You did not edit. - It is my error, that I jumped to this conclusion. I've dealt with it in the past, and was more than ready to jump the gun. I apologize for this error.-

You worded it in such as a way to call me your lesser, because I couldn't stay calm. You didn't explicitly state you were a better man. It's arguing semantics though. Do you honestly want to tell me that because you weren't explicit that it wasn't what you said? If you were five years old I'd believe that, but I'm working under the auspices that you are an adult and capable of understanding your own words.



Allow me to exercise the same. I believe that any person who claims to understand the basics of heat transfer, a bare minimum for working with HVAC, and cannot check the basic units is in fact incompetent. Anyone suffering from such a fundamental lack of basic understanding should in fact take their cyanide pill now, because that level of incompetence being passed onto the next generation is morally incorrect. Furthermore, the only type of person more deserving to win a Darwin award is someone who observes both experimental results and theoretical models producing the same results, and has the gall to believe that through sheer misunderstanding on their part that everyone else is incorrect.


To wrap an iron fist in a velvet glove is not to make it prettier, or more gentle. It is to shroud the basest and most vile tendencies of humanity, so that ignorance might retard human progress.
I can't remember who the quote was from, but it's how I've lived my life. If you want to call someone out, be plain and make sure you're right first. If you can't be plain, your words have no value. If you can't be right be prepared to stand your ground until your arguments have been eviscerated, and then accept the truth presented to you.

The truth here is that you don't understand units, a fundamental part of any calculations. The truth is that you were wrong before, and yet still trumpet the same ignorance. I'll talk politely with you whenever you show adequate reason to believe you understand what you speak of. For now, you and a braying ass have something in common. A loud voice, that is incapable of anything but demonstrating that you aren't capable of talking.


Edited:--
 

cadaveca

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Still doesn't have one iota to do with a rad inlet or outlet.
 
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Still doesn't have one iota to do with a rad inlet or outlet.

Are you intentionally being obtuse? I'm asking because at this point you have to be freaking kidding me.

The basic assumption, when doing calculations, is that there is no heat transfer within the tubing. As such, you've got a pump that adds some heat (though it's negligible compared to the CPU). You've got a CPU block that transfers its excess thermal energy into the cooling fluid. The only other thing you've got is a radiator which transfers thermal energy from the liquid into the surrounding environment via conduction with the air. If there's no heat rejection by tubing, the only temperature drop in the system is from inlet to outlet of the radiator.

The amount of energy conducted by the radiator is a function of the amount of fluid flowing, the material it is composed of, and its surface area. We could model a radiator as such, and try to calculate heat transfer, but that's a royal pain in the ass. Instead, we find the amount of energy transferred in total by just measuring the temperature at each end. As the heat capacity is a relative constant, and the flow rate is measurable, we calculate the amount of energy that flow rate can disperse. This amount of energy, per units time (jesus I hope you're getting tired of hearing that) is the Watts of heat energy rejected from the cooling fluid into the surrounding environment.


There are three ways to increase the amount of energy being transferred. One is to increase the surface area of the fluid exposed to transfer, but that's complicated because above a certain point the flow turns turbulent and doesn't conduct as well (this is why people don't see improvements in cooling above certain flow rates). The next is to have delta between cooling fluid and ambient air larger. Finally, you increase the surface area with an absolutely gigantic pipe with lots of fins. Option 1 isn't an option due to varying flow. Option 2 would require you chill ambient air, and if you're doing that why not just chill the CPU? Option 3 is our only solution. You can have a single huge radiator, which would allow for a greater energy transfer.

The only other option is simply to increase the heating. More input Watts require more output Watts. As flow is constant and thermal capacity is constant the temperature variation must increase.



Measuring temperature is easy. Calculating thermal wattage dispersed is easy. Measuring thermal energy dispersed is nearly impossible. That's what wattage, temperature variance, and fluid choice matter. I don't know exactly how to explain that any simpler. I can't understand how someone claiming that they are versed in HVAC doesn't understand this. It was damn near the first thing they taught us in thermo.
 
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One is to increase the surface area of the fluid exposed to transfer, but that's complicated because above a certain point the flow turns turbulent and doesn't conduct as well (this is why people don't see improvements in cooling above certain flow rates).
I think you meant flow rate instead of surface area because if you meant surface then your option #3 would be null
Finally, you increase the surface area with an absolutely gigantic pipe with lots of fins
because option and 1 and 3 are the same increasing surface area.

Just asking here if @cadaveca works with HVAC what type of engineer are you @lilhasselhoffer? Just curious.
 
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This thread has sharked the jump.
 
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I think you meant flow rate instead of surface area because if you meant surface then your option #3 would be null
because option and 1 and 3 are the same increasing surface area.

Just asking here if @cadaveca works with HVAC what type of engineer are you @lilhasselhoffer? Just curious.

Yes and no. I did word the explanation poorly. Fluid flow rate, assuming laminar flow, is a good approximation of the amount of the surface of the liquid coming into contact with the heat source. As a constantly flowing fluid generally is assumed to heat evenly, despite the fact that the fluid conducts heat only on the surface that it touches, we assume that fluid flow rate is a functionally the same as direct conductive heating.

That was probably an even more convoluted explanation. For the sake of simplicity, you are correct.



I've had the opportunity to work with an HVAC specialist on a few occasions. The beauty, or maybe tragedy, is that rarely do they have the ability to transition their knowledge into other fields. This isn't a knock, only an observation that "specialist" is their title. They know a lot about one field, in a rather limited range of situations. You'll note that an HVAC specialist wasn't consulted for the space station, engineers designed it because the insane conditions meant that regular HVAC was functionally worthless (you can't be ball parking when dealing with ammonia). A huge depth of knowledge, with no girth, doesn't transition anywhere well. HVAC specialists, in my experience, knows their coolant specifications and rules of thumb extremely well. Thing is, once you leave those coolants their ingrained knowledge is often difficult to apply. The HVAC people I knew could estimate a building's floor space by observing the building's vents. They could tell me how long it would take for the AC to drop to a given temperature (and how much power would be consumed). The second I asked about the impact a gigantic fish tank would have on the system, and what we needed to keep it heated, they knew nothing. That's water, a liquid and its thermal impact was unknown. This could have just been a string of incompetent people, but if so they were idiot savants. I respected their skills (and honestly admired the ability to be so accurate without ever picking up a calculator), and they understood when something was beyond their depth and they needed backup.

As far as my engineering, I chose the bastard versions (or jack of all trades if you're being realistic). I'm a mechanical engineer. That means I've had 1.5 years of thermo (which is a rough estimate, because my school did a 4 term year with summer being a fourth term). I've had 1 whole year of just state equations (and if anybody tries to model a double pendulum for you begin drinking immediately). Fluid dynamics was relatively brief at 1 year, but had overlap into thermo. I've modeled heat transfer from a rectangular surface into ambient air (if the description doesn't give it away, exactly the same situation as a processor) and into a crude finned heat sink. I've even had the opportunity to model a radiator which would drop the temperature of a fluid by 100 C in a space no bigger than a shoebox (83 simulated runs to get the damn thing right). The only topic that we were brief on was electronics, only getting up to crude 8 bit processors during labs (with primary focus on much higher voltage systems. generally motors). I've had my ass reamed more times than I'd care to count because I missed a single unit somewhere. You'll find that this is why I'm so keen to point it out. Most of the time people calling you incompetent either missed a variable and are getting the wrong answer because they don't understand the units, or don't understand how to apply equations. I've learned that whenever I come to an odd conclusion I need to prove my steps, and that the best thing you can do is ask someone about their units whenever they seem to not have a grasp on the subject.

I've got one request, if anyone believes I'm full of crap. Beat me at the game. I'm a certified engineer, which means I passed a test. Once you've taken that 8+ hour torture and passed it I'll gladly believe you're qualified to talk about theory. Until then, you've got as much right to believe in your superiority of knowledge as I do in my understanding of programming. To put that in perspective, I'm outclassed unless my competition can't understand a batch file and introductory C++.
 

cadaveca

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I've got one request, if anyone believes I'm full of crap. Beat me at the game. I'm a certified engineer, which means I passed a test. Once you've taken that 8+ hour torture and passed it I'll gladly believe you're qualified to talk about theory. Until then, you've got as much right to believe in your superiority of knowledge as I do in my understanding of programming. To put that in perspective, I'm outclassed unless my competition can't understand a batch file and introductory C++.

Let me enlighten you to something. Quick simple answers don't educate readers. You like to post long-winded responses, so post away, but please have one thing clear... At no point was I calling you full of crap, or was anyone else. I'm not sure why you feel that way, but there's nothing for me to do about that, since that's your personal feelings. Yet I still won't stop posting that all rads do not have a 1-2c delta between inlet and outlet. I do not agree with that one point, and you can argue your end any way you want. I am more than comfortable with possibly being wrong.

But, if you'd like me to stop, you do have to meet my simple requests.


Maybe I am asking you to do so, and to do things like post all the math, so that others reading this can have a direct education on the subject?? Maybe it's the opposite of what you think... maybe it's not that you're wrong, maybe its that you're right. You have no idea what motivates me...
 

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Well I just got my entertainment for all of 2016.
 
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HAHAHA... thats grate... :lovetpu:
 
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We can do without the useless replies which is outlined in forum posting rules. On topic please.
 
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Let me enlighten you to something. Quick simple answers don't educate readers. You like to post long-winded responses, so post away, but please have one thing clear... At no point was I calling you full of crap, or was anyone else. I'm not sure why you feel that way, but there's nothing for me to do about that, since that's your personal feelings. Yet I still won't stop posting that all rads do not have a 1-2c delta between inlet and outlet. I do not agree with that one point, and you can argue your end any way you want. I am more than comfortable with possibly being wrong.

But, if you'd like me to stop, you do have to meet my simple requests.


Maybe I am asking you to do so, and to do things like post all the math, so that others reading this can have a direct education on the subject?? Maybe it's the opposite of what you think... maybe it's not that you're wrong, maybe its that you're right. You have no idea what motivates me...

When I asked you the same courtesy you told me that I either needed to pay you, or take your word as law. I can't even understand how you've forgotten that. Whenever I asked you for proof, you told me that you'd be glad to post it if I paid you to do it. I'm not indulging your double standard. Either pay me to do the math for you, as you demanded of me, or acquiesce to the fact that you don't know what you're doing.


On the topic at hand, temperature is a measurement of random kinetic energy. You put kinetic energy in at the processor, and we understand that amount of energy as an amount of Watts. You pump it to the radiator. Depending upon the design of the radiator, and the physical properties of the fluid, you release a certain amount of energy. This is why you need bigger radiators to dissipate heat in more powerful systems, and smaller ones in smaller systems. Because the system is constantly moving toward a thermal equillibrium, the temperature of the cooling fluid increases until the amount of input energy matches the output energy of the radiator. Given the chemical properties of water, and assuming that you don't have multiple thousand dollars worth of hardware, you discover that for most users the temperature differential between radiator inlet and outlet turns out to be somewhere between 1-2 degrees Celsius to attain that dynamic system balance. The only time this is not the case is if you either severely oversize the radiator or actively cool the ambient air substantially below room temperature. In either case though, you're dealing with an outlier which does not apply to the majority of people. It's like asking everyone in a room who's been to the moon. Yes technically some people have been there, but if you polled a random sample of people there wouldn't likely be anybody who could truthfully say they had.


Further on topic, let me introduce everyone to a wonderful tool. It's the engineering toolbox: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html

A quick perusal there, of commonly available fluids, leads to a simple conclusion. Ammonia outstrips water slightly, if you used it in a cooling loop. I'm going to assume that everyone can do their own research here, but that effectively means water is, by a rather substantial margin, the best cooling fluid choice. Dope it how you want, but it needs to be mostly water.
 

cadaveca

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When I asked you the same courtesy you told me that I either needed to pay you, or take your word as law. I can't even understand how you've forgotten that. Whenever I asked you for proof, you told me that you'd be glad to post it if I paid you to do it. I'm not indulging your double standard. Either pay me to do the math for you, as you demanded of me, or acquiesce to the fact that you don't know what you're doing.

You missed that here, I'm front page staff, and you're a member. That affords me special treatment. :p It's not a double standard. It's a fact of life that I play with and test more hardware than most, for free, while most other people pay for it. Me giving my opinion on hardware is something that pays me, and you... not so much. I have access to hardware that not in the public domain and things like ES CPUs.

Yet don't get me wrong. All that is rather meaningless, except that no one here can make any demands of me when it comes to computer hardware. Except W1zzard. Excuse me while I exercise that privilege. :cool:
 
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I'm front page staff, and you're a member. That affords me special treatment.

Sorry, but no. As staff we should hold ourselves accountable to a much higher standard. "Pulling rank" like that in a debate isn't the most honorable thing. I'd ask that both you and @lilhasselhoffer stop it here. This is no longer a healthy science debate, and is getting to the stage of pettiness on both ends.

I'm posting this as a member of the forum, not as a member of staff - my views on this debate between you two are not representitive of what the rest of the mod staff think, but I feel I cannot sit back and watch this any further without attempting to nip things in the bud. If another mod disagrees then that's fair game.
 
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to clarify, a watt is a measurement of the rate of energy, not the amount. This is why your power bill reflects kwh, not kw. The rate of energy (kw), over a specified time(h).

What if you live in a dimension without time? Then it'd be an amount. :p

Ok, I think it's my bed time...
 
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Thread shutting down as it has veered way off course from its original intent.
 
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