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NVIDIA's New GPP Program Reportedly Engages in Monopolistic Practices

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Well, they were technically faster, but within 10% or so. Nothing you could pick up with the naked eye. TPU's reviews show similar perf/$ ratios.
Yeah, but still faster, and even a 5% increase performance is good, depends on the cost, sure, but someone who buys cards every 3/4/5 years, i think wouldn't mind that extra cost for even as little as 5-10% avg performance, and not only that, historically nvidias gpu were often cooler and lesa power hungry. But whatever, this isn't even the point of the topic.
 

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Good grief this thread has gone bat shit hostile....
 

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I hope you realize that doesn't count as an alternative confirmation of Kyle's claims. It's just a rehash of his article.

Aye, but it was much more interesting to listen to another persons thoughts of the same source.
 
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I suppose a key part of the argument here will revolve around the definition of 'brand' (and, beyond that, 'sub-brand').

An example:
Asus is a manufacturer, but also a brand.
ROG is Asus' gaming sub-brand, but could be argued to have sufficient name recognition to be considered a brand of its own.
Ares/Mars are, at best, sub-brands of ROG, with minimal if any separate name recognition. They're barely a step above model designations. If you asked me to guess what GPU manufacturer was behind each name, I'd have no idea.
EVGA is a manufacturer and a brand, but has no "gaming" sub-brand. Then again, they're a much smaller company, and barely make non-gaming products at all.

Now, where to draw the line for what entails a reasonable understanding of this with regards to this report?
  • It seems unlikely that Nvidia would require top-level brands (manufacturers' names) to be Nvidia exclusive. Not to mention that that would be blatantly anticompetitive, and hence, illegal.
  • Likewise, it seems unlikely that Nvidia would care at all (or even want!) a constant, Nvidia only sub-brand below ROG. Not only does it not match the reported wording ("exclusive... gaming brand"), but it would make for god-awful product names, which Nvidia (or anyone with a marketing department) would see is a bad idea. "Asus ROG Strix GTX 1060 OC" is bad enough. "Asus ROG Mars Strix GTX 1060 OC" is... well, awful. The more sub-brands, the more confusing it all becomes and the less these actually end up meaning.
  • As such, it doesn't seem unreasonable to interpret this as if Nvidia would require the ROG brand (Asus' "gaming brand") to be Nvidia exclusive. To keep selling AMD while joining the GPP, they'd need to establish a separate gaming brand, or just sell them as Asus - which of course gives Nvidia a massive PR advantage given ROG's brand recognition. The wording makes it unlikely that establishing a new gaming brand for Nvidia next to an established one (left to AMD) would fulfill this requirement, as the word "the" is consistently used rather than "a".
Asus might be an extreme case, as they're probably the biggest AIB partner out there, but would that mean that they'd get preferential/different treatment than smaller OEMs? I doubt it, as that would be a hard sell for Nvidia to the other OEMs.

So, if this is true, what does it all boil down to? A dominant market leader imposing strict-seeming exclusivivity requirements on partners with the possible penalties having significant economic impacts, especially for smaller partners. That does indeed sound like anticompetitive business practices to me when put in terms that simple - but there are a lot of details and nuances here, not least in terms of how this is put into practice and enforced. I'm no legal expert either, of course. But I'd say it warrants an investigation at the very least.
Well, that's exactly what they should do, instead of crying to journalists like little girls. They're world-wide businesses after all, not kids the Nvidia can bully as they please.
Wow. Seriously? Your answer is "AIB partners should unionize"? That is an absurdly naive stance. Of course Nvidia can bully them around - the vast majority of their GPU business is beholden to the whims of Nvidia. Even as a group, AIB partners have very little say if Nvidia decides to change something. Besides, this is why we have laws and regulations, so that the responsibility of maintaining a somewhat fair society doesn't fall om individuals and minor actors.
I will say again mind, what if nobody signs up to it anyway? I mean why would they if the current status quo exists.
Sorry, but how exactly do you think the status quo is? You realise that the incentives and monetary support mentioned here already exists, right? Nvidia already pays out large sums to help partners with advertising. Do you believe Asus alone pays for all those Asus ROG GeForce gaming laptop ads? If so, you're sorely mistaken. And this, of course, flips the script entirely. Nvidia isn't saying "join the GPP and get more", it's saying "unless you restructure and give us favorable branding, we'll stop paying you." Which, of course, is the kind of thing that drives investors and board members to the verge of hysterical fits in fear of projected profits dropping. Which, again, is why this thing has power.


Of course, should this prove to be true, it really shouldn't surprise anyone. It's the nature of profit-oriented business, particularly publicly traded business, to seek the maximization of profits to the highest degree possible. Of course that entails pushing the limits of the law - especially when they can reap the benefits of said practices while under investigation or on trial (or during appeals, and so on...). In the end, they gain more than they stand to lose. AMD would probably do similar things if they were in a dominant market position. It's the name of the game, and the entire reason why "the free market" is a wildly misleading term - free(dom) implies equality and fairness, to which deregulation and "free competition" (i.e. "do whatever you can to win") are diametrically opposed. Unregulated or underpoliced markets are unfree, fundamentally unfair markets. The hunt for ever-growing profits makes this a given.

Edit: corrected GPU to GPP. That's what I get for typing on my phone, I guess.
 
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No, i'm not, i even went checking before writing my post, all gpu comparison sites and a few benchmarks gave both the 580 and 680 the advantage, actually besides everything even the first fail fermi 4xx was faster than its counterpart...
TPU's own reviews have them pegged at around or slightly higher on the overall % comparison. Looking at individual results it's about the same with some titles giving a big lead to AMD or Nvidia. Nvidia has a definite edge with the 1K series over Vega but it's moot with how screwy the market is right now.
 
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TPU's own reviews have them pegged at around or slightly higher on the overall % comparison. Looking at individual results it's about the same with some titles giving a big lead to AMD or Nvidia. Nvidia has a definite edge with the 1K series over Vega but it's moot with how screwy the market is right now.
You can keep arguing all you want, facts are facts, besides this ain't the point of this topic.
 
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You can keep arguing all you want, facts are facts, besides this ain't the point of this topic.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_580_Matrix/27.html
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_580_Lightning_Extreme_Edition/27.html
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_680_Lightning/28.html
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/KFA2/GTX_680_Limited_OC/28.html

There you go. As for Nvidia's supposed practices, there's not much to talk about unless someone posted concrete evidence I missed.
 
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Yeah you basically proved i'm right besides 5970 being faster even than 6970, how is that even possible...
 
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Getting back on topic

Kyle said:
I was just informed through a solid source that ASUS and MSI have already signed on to do NVIDIA GPP. I have not been able to verify this information with ASUS or MSI yet, and I doubt I will be able to.
 
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"HardOCP's Kyle Bennet says he expects the website to be shunned from now on when it comes to NVIDIA or NVIDIA partner graphics cards being offered for review purposes."

Kind-of, never had respect for [H] or Kyle, but if he keeps the heat on this and investigating, this I might have a change in my opinion and perspective of their past ways of reporting and testing.

And yes this doesn't in theory "lock" an OEM/AIB out of selling AMD stuff, it just may polarize more AIB's into a particular camp.

Interestingly there was that news Asrock was talking about building/supplying AMD cards. Perhaps AMD got wind of some OEM/Contact manufacture is signed to this "GeForce Partner Program (GPP)" and came along and said well we're suspending/not reissuing the contact as your volume has been down and brands under-preform.

Business can be a fickle mistress!
 
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bug

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"HardOCP's Kyle Bennet says he expects the website to be shunned from now on when it comes to NVIDIA or NVIDIA partner graphics cards being offered for review purposes."

Kind-of, never had respect for [H] or Kyle, but if he keeps the heat on this and investigating, this I might have a change in my opinion and perspective of their past ways of reporting and testing.

And yes this doesn't in theory "lock" an OEM/AIB out of selling AMD stuff, it just may polarize more AIB's into a particular camp.

Interestingly there was that news Asrock was talking about building/supplying AMD cards. Perhaps AMD got wind of some OEM/Contact manufacture is signed to this "GeForce Partner Program (GPP)" and came along and said well we're suspending/not reissuing the contact as your volume has been down and brands under-preform.

Business can be a fickle mistress!
Shun him when he says AMD underperforms, love him when he blows the whistle on Nvidia. That's a nice and thoughtful attitude. Critical thinking be damned :wtf:
 
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Shun him when he says
Those where Kyle Bennett words not mine.

But when the guy deactivates you from [H] forms for pointing out changes to methods, games, use of older drivers etc. Technically we should be able to ask for clarification of the data collection in any means testing if not above reproach. I can have change it's what thinking people are made to do... evolve.
 
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Intel doesn't like him either and Nvidia was the only major players he seamed to get along with until he wrote this story, so hes was completing the trifecta for the love, hate.
 

bug

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Intel doesn't like him either and Nvidia was the only major players he seamed to get along with until he wrote this story, so hes was completing the trifecta for the love, hate.
It's a hard job. For companies to "love" you, you have to stick to their guidelines when reviewing. But if you stick to their guidelines, you won't make your article stand from the crowd. And if you don't stick to their guidelines, you don't get free products to review in a timely manner (or at all).
 
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It's a hard job. For companies to "love" you, you have to stick to their guidelines when reviewing. But if you stick to their guidelines, you won't make your article stand from the crowd. And if you don't stick to their guidelines, you don't get free products to review in a timely manner (or at all).
Most tech "journalism" lives in the area between glorified purchase advice and pure advertising anyhow. Suppose that's what happens when no news outlets have the financial security to not depend on free review samples. I have to applaud when someone goes out on a limb like this. We need more of this kind of journalism.
 
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bug

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Most tech "journalism" lives in the area between glorified purchase advice and pure advertising anyhow. Suppose that's what happens when no news outlets have the financial security to not depend on free review samples. I have to applaud when someone goes out on a limb like this. We need more of this kind of journalism.
Yeah, you have to applaud. How many times have you subscribed when someone went "out on a limb like this"?
 
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Well, no. The info we have says there should be some ROG (or similar) line comprised solely of Nvidia products. Nowhere is it specified a similar line for AMD is forbidden.


Let me quote:
"The crux of the issue with NVIDIA GPP comes down to a single requirement in order to be part of GPP. In order to have access to the GPP program, its partners must have its "Gaming Brand Aligned Exclusively With GeForce." I have read documents with this requirement spelled out on it."

Gaming brand exclusive to geforce.
 

bug

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Let me quote:
"The crux of the issue with NVIDIA GPP comes down to a single requirement in order to be part of GPP. In order to have access to the GPP program, its partners must have its "Gaming Brand Aligned Exclusively With GeForce." I have read documents with this requirement spelled out on it."

Gaming brand exclusive to geforce.
Yes. It does not say "only one gaming brand". And what's not explicitly forbidden is to be interpreted in favor of the party that didn't draft the document.
 
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Yes. It does not say "only one gaming brand". And what's not explicitly forbidden is to be interpreted in favor of the party that didn't draft the document.
While the first part is entirely true, do you really believe in your last sentence there? Say, we're talking about Asus ROG. Would they make ROG - the established, widely recognized brand - AMD-only and make an new Nvidia-only gaming brand, or would they do the opposite? I would say the latter is by far the more likely outcome, and as I see it that would most definitely be a case of abuse of a dominant market position. Why? Because if that is the outcome, then effectively this is Nvidia telling ASUS that they need to bar AMD from ROG branding (and all the benefits that come with it), which is a blatantly anticompetitive move. It doesn't matter if Nvidia doesn't put this into entirely explicit terms, as implications and hints carry a lot of weight when they're backed up by the threat of withholding significant financial/technical/other support, and "we didn't say it, it was just implied" is not a defense in any way, shape or form.

And, "what's not explicitly forbidden is to be interpreted in favor of the party that didn't draft the document" - says who? I'm pretty sure Nvidia isn't saying that. Market regulators? Common sense? You're going to have to be more clear than that.

Yeah, you have to applaud. How many times have you subscribed when someone went "out on a limb like this"?
Sorry, I don't quite get your meaning here. You mean 'subscribe' as in getting a paid subscription to a site (or giving other monetary support)? If there was a print magazine quality tech publication that could be relied on to provide serious investigative journalism and balanced reviews, I'd definitely consider that once I'm in a more comfortable financial situation than I am now. Working part-time does that to you. Then again, it's not like I'm supporting low-quality sites financially either. This is a general issue with web-based journalism, regardless of its subject.

Then again, I love your use of obvious and cliched distraction techniques here. Let's change the subject from 'quality investigative journalism' to 'whether I'm a hypocrite through not paying for news', no? That's a real productive subject for discussion. Not to mention individualizing blame for larger societal issues, such as funding journalism. I see your 'bullshit attempt at derailing the discussion', and raise you a 'let's stick to the topic, please'.
 
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I seent it I seent it^ well most of it
kyle is ok when he reviews and shows mods and stuff but he sucks at investigative journalism.
he don't know how to play that game.

I just cant understand how he goes onto say that nv wants to take over the gaming sector form these aibs.

but then he goes on to say later about steam (unrelated) but its ok for them to own our games?
have you gotten a game lately for pc that lets you boot from the box?
but that's ok?

many things are unjust in this world for gamers gpp is not one of them

if it hurts one of his friends at where ever(maybe at the amd gaming of one of the big 3?) then sorry for him
but as it stands now you showed your hand and you don't have much at all.
 
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Did research on this and looked at the legalities of this program. It seems very likely that it is a very carefully crafted attempt at a loophole in antitrust laws. However there are clauses within the antitrust laws that explicitly prohibit deliberate attempts to circumvent the theory, technicality and ethics of these laws. Nvidia is crossing a line and it seems they are getting attention from government regulators. This program is blatantly unlawful and is very likely to gain prosecution in every country that has anti-trust laws. Even the government of China is looking into this(and that is never a good thing).
Wow. It happened. Jay made a video on it.
Mentions when he tried to talk to anyone about GPP they wouldn't.
How often does Jay do serious videos like that and has a seemingly genuine tone of worry in his voice?

This is one of many instances in the latest trend from tech companies to push the boundaries of the law by blatantly breaking them. This is a very troubling trend..
 
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