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Apple announces Mac transition to Apple silicon

Fourstaff

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This official announcement is going to hurt Intel. They have been consistently losing business to ARM and AMD over the years. I suspect Apple is paying top dollars for customized chips from them and this is not good news for Intel, despite the fact this should not be something new to Intel since a couple of years back.

While I don't disagree that Apple's ecosystem is a high walled garden, it is also this walled garden that allows them to pull this sort of transition a lot easier than their competitors. With developers onboard with Apple's transition because its lucrative with a user base that tend to spend on apps/ games, this will also aid the transition.

As of 6 months, ago, Intel was capacity limited: https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2019/11/intel-supply-letter-customers.pdf

I don't think the impact will be too massive.
 
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Archiving this thread for some gold similar to "post OG iPhone announcement"
 
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Well you said extended support till about 2030, not dying soon & 10 years are almost worlds apart. Not getting into the Mac ecosystem now, on the back of x86 & Hackintosh, is what I'm stressing.
Yes & how does that relate to what I posted? My point was/is that many posters here think that x86 being CISC is somehow inherently superior to (RISC) ARM ~ which of course isn't the case. Then there's the other absurd theory that ARM is suited only for mobile or low power computing, & you have the world's fastest super computer being powered by ARM, so that one goes out for a toss as well.
Modern x86 CPUs decode CISC into RISC like instructions prior to execution. Try again.
 
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Modern x86 CPUs decode CISC into RISC like instructions prior to execution. Try again.
Tell that to posters who say CISC (x86) is better than RISC (ARM) yourself :rolleyes:
I'm well aware x86 instructions are broken down to uops, since ages!
 
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But then they showed Mya (I may have misspelled it), a 3D modeling program running at full speed too. They also had a game from the Mac App Store that wasn't a native app, some Lara Croft game, running at full speed too.

Suffice it to say, they may have very well built a custom piece of silicon that can do what they need it to do just like how the A13 Bionic in the iPhone 11 Pro pretty much whips the ass of any Android equivalent SoC. There's something to be said about a custom piece of silicon instead of relying on brute force computing. It's the same as how modern GPUs have specific areas of the GPU that are made to do certain things and others for other things.
 
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Maybe this will help alleiviate some of Intel's cpu supply constraints??
 
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Yes & how does that relate to what I posted? My point was/is that many posters here think that x86 being CISC is somehow inherently superior to (RISC) ARM ~ which of course isn't the case. Then there's the other absurd theory that ARM is suited only for mobile or low power computing, & you have the world's fastest super computer being powered by ARM, so that one goes out for a toss as well.

If you seriously think that ARM is a RISC design, then you probably don't know about the FJCVTZS instruction: https://developer.arm.com/docs/ddi0...rt-to-signed-fixed-point-rounding-toward-zero

A few other notes: https://github.com/fujitsu/A64FX/blob/master/doc/A64FX_Microarchitecture_Manual_en_1.1.pdf

1592931188738.png


1592931425267.png


A64FX, and many other ARM designs, split designs into simpler uOPs, just as x86 does. RISC vs CISC is dead, the ideal CPU has merged elements of both. We're pretty much living in the age of load/store CISC machines. All of which recompile assembly into uOPs and then executes them out of order. There are multiple dozens of "renaming registers" in the A64FX chip, just as x86 has renaming entries for out of order execution.

Honestly, the only designs I can call "RISC-like" are maybe GPUs these days. In-order, simple register machines (without renaming or out of order facilities). But the SIMD element kinda makes the GPU architecture more SIMD than RISC. Even "RISC-V" is a CISC design with register renaming, out of order execution, and microops.

----------

Now with that said, Intel has been resting on their laurels too long. Apple has extremely good benchmarks coming from their custom ARM chips (which btw: no on else can make). A64FX is another custom ARM design, but its actual design is close to the UltraSPARC chips that Fujitsu made for supercomputers. Apple has done lots of good work improving and optimizing their uncore and cache to finally be competitive.

The question is if Apple's design really can scale up from phones into laptops. Maybe, maybe not. We'll find out in a year. I don't expect A64FX to be very widespread outside of the Japanese supercomputer (its a cool piece of silicon, but Fujitsu's HPC chips don't really see much use outside of supercomputers).
 
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The question is if Apple's design really can scale up from phones into laptops. Maybe, maybe not. We'll find out in a year.
They wouldn't be doing this if it couldn't. And they adressed this question in the Keynote when they talked about how they scaled that same architecture from iPhones to iPads, which is a big leap already.
 
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They wouldn't be doing this if it couldn't

I've seen too many big companies fall flat on their face from this logic. I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not saying they can't do it. But just believing a company's goals because they're big and powerful is a mistake. Intel's Itanium. Windows ARM. Or if you want an Apple specific failure: Butterfly keyboards. They've made mistakes before and they might do it again.

----------

With that being said, the A12x chip in iPads / iPhones is incredible. They probably can scale it up, but I reserve judgement until they actually have a product with 3rd party reviews.
 
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So Macbooks from 2021 are going to be effectively glorified iPads with permanently attached keyboards.

Yawn.

Only that Macbooks will still be running MacOS and iPads iOS, two totally different operating systems for totally different sets of users... But yea, just sweep that under the rug. Apple haters will never make sense to me. I get you can't afford it or don't want to spend that kind of money on something like this. But why you need to make baseless claims and non-sense emotional arguments against Apple all the time just to feel better about your personal choice against Apple?
 
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Well you said extended support till about 2030, not dying soon & 10 years are almost worlds apart. Not getting into the Mac ecosystem now, on the back of x86 & Hackintosh, is what I'm stressing.

Yes, extended support is for existing and upcoming products. That hasn't changed. Don't conflate the factual statement about Apple's support structure and the opinion of Hackintosh's continued existence. They are two different statements.
 
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What's in it for developers?
Unless I'm missing something, Apple have just condemned the Mac lineup to the same "mobile-first" software plague that severely harmed the desktop PC a decade ago.
Developers aren't going to write full-fat software Just for MacOS, for free, no. The Mac lineup is going to get the lowest-common-denominator treatment where porting an iOS version to desktop is the path of least resistance.
If Apple throws billions in the direction of the software giants that cover the majority of the market, they may get somewhere.

Apparently that is what Rosetta (2) is for

 
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With that being said, the A12x chip in iPads / iPhones is incredible. They probably can scale it up, but I reserve judgement until they actually have a product with 3rd party reviews.

I'm with you on the hardware front, they did make some mistakes and nobody is perfect. But even if that's true, their product design (build quality, ergonomics, look&feel) is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else out there imho. They like to charge for it obviously but that's beside the point. Anyway, I still like to spend on things I use every day and the cost per use of my MacBook Pro must be less than a homemade coffee each day at this point.

But more importantly, I trust Apple when it comes to software and their hardware support almost blindly. They do make mistakes there too and bugs happen, but Apple is by far the best at sorting the right things out in reasonale time. It's almost like they have one single ecosystem and not just a frankenstein monster of 20 different chinese companies rolled in one product among hundren other ones. Does anyone actually believe that Lenovo or Dell or name any other brand like that puts as much effort into every single product like Apple does consitently? That's why I trust they can pull this off, if they haven't already done so. I meant to say they wouldn't be announcing this so soon, if they hadn't seen it working and competing with Intel already. Unlike other companies that have tried ARM like this (Microsoft), I don't believe Apple would go into this without really thinking it through or preparing it as much as possible. Nobody questioned that this could be done, but for a company to pull it off it needs to be prepared exceptionally well. I believe Apple at this point is maybe the only one capable of doing exactly that. This may also move other companies like Microsoft to try it again. Qualcomm could also move into the desktop space as well and seriously compete with Intel / AMD, there have been rumors for many months now.

Btw. I liked typing on the Butterfly Keys a lot, it feels amazing. The problem was that they were prone to some defects but I never had any problems with it that I couldn't solve myself. I remember a key got stuck once and I googled that you can blow with your mouth on it from the side to get it unstuck and it actually worked. People used to send their MacBooks in for that and Apple used to give people new Macs for stuck keys. Something they could have probably solved themselves without using any tools.
 
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Does anyone actually believe that Lenovo or Dell or name any other brand like that puts as much effort into every single product like Apple does consitently?

Lenovo X1 Carbon and Dell Precision are pretty darn good machines in my experience.

Dell and Lenovo have lower quality ~$700 products. But based on my social circle, that's how much money a lot of people are willing to spend. Actually serving the need with a bit weaker parts and some lower quality is a benefit, in that some people cannot afford a higher cost computer. (Or, a higher priced computer won't offer much benefit to them).

Dell in particular puts a lot of design effort into ease of replaceable parts and service. https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/precision-m4800-workstation_owners-manual_en-us.pdf . Dell also provides a supply chain to support these operations, with easy to buy replacement screens, batteries, etc. etc.

I actually have a general preference for high-end Dell workstations for this reason.
 
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Lenovo X1 Carbon and Dell Precision are pretty darn good machines in my experience.

Dell and Lenovo have lower quality ~$700 products. But based on my social circle, that's how much money a lot of people are willing to spend. Actually serving the need with a bit weaker parts and some lower quality is a benefit, in that some people cannot afford a higher cost computer. (Or, a higher priced computer won't offer much benefit to them).

Dell in particular puts a lot of design effort into ease of replaceable parts and service. https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/precision-m4800-workstation_owners-manual_en-us.pdf . Dell also provides a supply chain to support these operations, with easy to buy replacement screens, batteries, etc. etc.

I actually have a general preference for high-end Dell workstations for this reason.
That's why I named those two companies because Lenovo with their ThinkPad lineup and Dell with their XPS series are for me at least the only other real game in town in terms of putting out products with some real effort behind them, besides Apple MacBook Pros. But I'd argue that if you want Apple level effort and you're going for Dell or ThinPad, you'll still pay high prices albeit not as much as Apple charges, but very close these days.

I still think Apple has way better built quality since they don't use plastic (or fake Carbon) like Dell and Lenovo does and what you get out of the box is immaculate build quality every time for me. The QA in production for Apple products must be the best in the world, you really get what you pay for. Although I get that people can't afford or don't want to pay that much for something like this, you can't really blame Apple for charging those prices for their level of quality and effort they put into it. You also get highly functional and practical custom software that takes literally millions of hours to code. Everybody else just chooses to put a copy of Windows on it and call it a day. That alone should be a reason to charge way more than others, but I'd argue they don't.
 
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That's why I named those two companies because Lenovo with their ThinkPad lineup and Dell with their XPS series are for me at least the only other real game in town in terms of putting out products with some real effort behind them, besides Apple MacBook Pros. But I'd argue that if you want Apple level effort and you're going for Dell or ThinPad, you'll still pay high prices albeit not as much as Apple charges, but very close these days.

I still think Apple has way better built quality since they don't use plastic (or fake Carbon) like Dell and Lenovo does and what you get out of the box is immaculate build quality every time for me. The QA in production for Apple products must be the best in the world, you really get what you pay for. Although I get that people can't afford or don't want to pay that much for something like this, you can't really blame Apple for charging those prices for their level of quality and effort they put into it. You also get highly functional and practical custom software that takes literally millions of hours to code. Everybody else just chooses to put a copy of Windows on it and call it a day. That alone should be a reason to charge way more than others, but I'd argue they don't.

The Surface compters IMO have the most premium feel of all the laptops. The Surface Laptop (~$900) has a nice feeling felt, but I'd worry about it getting messy over time. The magnesium alloy to the Surface Pro / Surface Book is the best feeling. Asus's Zenbook (also Aluminum) has the nice rigidity chassis if that's up people's ally.

But... "premium feel" is very, very, very low on my list of priorities. Furthermore, I recognize that Aluminum is highly rigid, but has very low elasticity. You can bend and dent Aluminum far more easily than plastic (which "bounces back"). Ironically, Aluminum has higher plasticity than plastic (Plasticity is defined as deforming permanently). From a practicality perspective, I think plastic wins over in the long run. I do have an accident or two, dropping my laptop from modest heights or maybe children sitting on the darn thing accidentally... and plastic frankly handles that kind of abuse best out of all materials.

Honestly, the chassis material is almost 100% fashion choice and almost subjective. Aluminum, carbon fiber, plastic, magnesium alloys, are all very lightweight, decent enough rigidity (metals are better), decent enough plasticity (but plastic is better). Its far more important to get the darn thing into the correct shape. Aluminum in the wrong shape creates BendGate: it doesn't matter how strong or weak a material is if its in the wrong shape.

A lot of laptops are laughably thin and poorly shaped now. Sticking with slightly thicker workstation-class laptops helps out a lot, an extra 1/8th of an inch helps not only rigidity and strength, but also provides more room for cooling, battery, and makes replacing parts much easier. For that reason, I more or less stick with HPs or Dell workstation computers, as both companies have good replacement part supply chains, good design manuals, and good designs (on the higher end $1000+ equipment anyway)

----------

Well, this is getting a bit off topic, now that I think of it. Ultimately, I don't think Apple necessarily will make an Intel-competitive chip. I think they have a chance, but I'll wait for benchmarks before judging.
 
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iOS is a minority in the mobile phone market segment.

Out of the box, MacOS platform has inferior hardware raytracing.
Think you misunderstood the post you're responding to -- they were saying that a lot of developers buy macs, not that a lot of developers develop for ios/macos. MacOS has everything a modern developer needs OOB (*nix and most major linux software natively).

Re hackintosh -- did anyone else notice the note about custom kernel extensions? I thought this was really interesting. What does it mean for hackintosh/peripherals makers? Macs that are finally expandable?
 
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Some people will try to downplay this but this is a major blow for intel. Performance per watt used to be their strong point.

 
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this is a major blow for intel. Performance per watt used to be their strong point.
Not any more. What makes me sad is that they didn't consider going to AMD.

As for MacOS Big Sur, when it comes to the changes in the UI Microsoft should be embarrassed.
 
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Think you misunderstood the post you're responding to -- they were saying that a lot of developers buy macs, not that a lot of developers develop for ios/macos. MacOS has everything a modern developer needs OOB (*nix and most major linux software natively).

Re hackintosh -- did anyone else notice the note about custom kernel extensions? I thought this was really interesting. What does it mean for hackintosh/peripherals makers? Macs that are finally expandable?
MacOS is still a minority. I have seen TV and movie studios gravitate towards PCs with RTX GPUs.

Developers don't need Apple PC hardware to develop dominant Android apps.
Developers don't need Apple PC hardware to develop dominant Windows apps.

Tell that to posters who say CISC (x86) is better than RISC (ARM) yourself :rolleyes:
I'm well aware x86 instructions are broken down to uops, since ages!
ARM is not pure RISC when it has two instruction length. x86 has variable-length instructions which are decoded into 1-to-many fix length RISC like instructions.

As of 6 months, ago, Intel was capacity limited: https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2019/11/intel-supply-letter-customers.pdf

I don't think the impact will be too massive.
Removing Apple as an Intel CPU customer helps with Intel's supply issue for other PC vendors.
 
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So no more Hackintosh?
Users have been able to install the developer preview with no issues, and Apple has opened up their system kernel’s SDK for the first time, so it’ll be interesting to see. Maybe they’ll finally get nvidia drivers :p
MacOS is still a minority. I have seen TV and movie studios gravitate towards PCs with RTX GPUs.

Developers don't need Apple PC hardware to develop dominant Android apps.
Developers don't need Apple PC hardware to develop dominant Windows apps.
Okay... I get that you hate Apple but a lot of developers use MacBooks, whether they need to or not. Seems like it’s still Unix, so they’ll probably continue to :shrug:
 
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Users have been able to install the developer preview with no issues, and Apple has opened up their system kernel’s SDK for the first time, so it’ll be interesting to see. Maybe they’ll finally get nvidia drivers :p
Okay... I get that you hate Apple but a lot of developers use MacBooks, whether they need to or not. Seems like it’s still Unix, so they’ll probably continue to :shrug:
"A lot of developers use MacBooks" is fluff without any numbers to back it.
 
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Storage 500GB Samsung 850 Evo (OS X, *nix), 128GB Samsung 840 Pro (W10 Pro), 1TB SpinPoint F3 ~best in class
Display(s) ASUS VW246H ~best 24" you've seen *FULL HD* *1O80PP* *SLAPS*~
Case FT02-W ~the W stands for white but it's brushed aluminum except for the disgusting ODD bays; *cries*
Audio Device(s) A LOT
Power Supply 850W EVGA SuperNova G2 ~hot fire like champagne~
Mouse CM Spawn ~cmcz R c00l seth mcfarlane darawss~
Keyboard CM QF Rapid - Browns ~fastrrr kees for fstr teens~
Software integrated into the chassis
Benchmark Scores 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
"A lot of developers use MacBooks" is fluff without any numbers to back it.
Says the user who has only made his argument with conjecture :)

Historically stackoverflow’s numbers have been higher with Apple, but have dipped in recent years. I think it was the keyboard problems, but what do I know, I’m just a lowly developer :shrug:


Wish the statista data had a source :(
Edit: it did and it was jetbrains so it’s gone now
 
Last edited:

r9

Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
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System Name Primary|Secondary|Poweredge r410|Dell XPS|SteamDeck
Processor i7 11700k|i7 9700k|2 x E5620 |i5 5500U|Zen 2 4c/8t
Memory 32GB DDR4|16GB DDR4|16GB DDR4|32GB ECC DDR3|8GB DDR4|16GB LPDDR5
Video Card(s) RX 7800xt|RX 6700xt |On-Board|On-Board|8 RDNA 2 CUs
Storage 2TB m.2|512GB SSD+1TB SSD|2x256GBSSD 2x2TBGB|256GB sata|512GB nvme
Display(s) 50" 4k TV | Dell 27" |22" |3.3"|7"
VR HMD Samsung Odyssey+ | Oculus Quest 2
Software Windows 11 Pro|Windows 10 Pro|Windows 10 Home| Server 2012 r2|Windows 10 Pro
Let's focus on the keywords limited instruction set, so they gonna make laptop shape phones.
 
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