• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Intel Expects to Beat TSMC at 2nm, Intel Foundry to Operate Almost as a Separate Business

AleksandarK

News Editor
Staff member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
2,524 (0.96/day)
Intel's integrated device manufacturing (IDM) has been experiencing a lot of trouble in recent years, and the company is not a leading-edge semiconductor manufacturer, with TSMC taking the pole position. However, the new restructuring hopes to change some of the business operations to increase its efficiency and establish Intel as the go-to foundry for customers. David Zinsner, Executive Vice President and the Chief Financial Officer, alongside Jason Grebe, Corporate Vice President & GM of the Corporate Planning Group at Intel, joined investors to explain how IDM will transform into a next-generation business. Intel IDM, including Intel Foundry Services (IFS), will get a new operation model, which will put IDM as an almost separate business unit with its own profit and loss (P&L) statement published in the quarterly/yearly financial report.

According to Intel, the company's IDM 1.0 strategy has been serving it well, but IDM 2.0 is needed to build next-generation nodes as the capital required for them is massive. Intel hopes to regain node leadership with the Intel 18A node in 2025. The company's strategy is still to have IFS as the second biggest external foundry business, presumably just behind TSMC. Putting IDM into its own P&L will result in $8-10 billion in "cost reduction opportunities, " including ramp rates, test time, and sort times based on the market pricing, not Intel's pricing. At the start, IDM is expected o start with a negative operating margin. Intel also states that keeping IFS as a business unit allows the company to simultaneously develop products on it and de-risk it for customers who want to build on IFS. The company is developing five different products (assuming packaging) on Intel 18A, all of which will be available for customers to use as well.




Jason Grebe continued to stress that there will be complete segregation of customer data and IP, with world-class service and support, so upcoming customers can get a sense of trust. David Zinsner was asked why Intel didn't just split into a fabless design business and a separate foundry business. He noted that they thought there is a lot of benefit of combining design and manufacturing business, especially as having Intel as customer zero, which can translate its knowledge of working with new technologies to other customers.


A pair of slides that caught our attention in the slide deck below, compare Intel's foundry node advancement to those of its competitors. It details how Intel maintained a technological and first-to-market lead over TSMC across their 90 nm-class, 65 nm-class, 45 nm-class, 32 nm-class, 22 nm-class, and 14 nm-class. The company's 10 nm node was significantly delayed, which gave TSMC 7 nm free reign over the next-generation market for over a year. I


Intel marks 10 nm (aka Intel 7) as significantly lagging behind TSMC 7 nm on time-to-market. TSMC 5 nm has already been in the market for over 3 quarters now, and it's only later in Q3 that Intel could release the first products based on the rival Intel 4 node ("Meteor Lake" compute tile). Intel 3 could similarly lag by a couple of quarters behind TSMC 3 nm, as could Intel 20A. It's at the 2 nm-class where Intel claims that if it executes the IFS and IDM 2.0 roadmap correctly, the Intel 18A foundry node should beat TSMC 2 nm-class nodes both technologically, and at time-to-market.

The complete slide deck follows.



View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
1,750 (0.61/day)
It’s finally happening. Intel is realizing that no significant players will fab their chips at Intel foundries because they know Intel will steal IP and make uncompetitive moves against them.

Intel has to set up barriers between the foundry and chip businesses to improve trust that will inevitably lead to spinning off the fabs into another company.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
7,217 (1.09/day)
System Name ICE-QUAD // ICE-CRUNCH
Processor Q6600 // 2x Xeon 5472
Memory 2GB DDR // 8GB FB-DIMM
Video Card(s) HD3850-AGP // FireGL 3400
Display(s) 2 x Samsung 204Ts = 3200x1200
Audio Device(s) Audigy 2
Software Windows Server 2003 R2 as a Workstation now migrated to W10 with regrets.
What a lot of slides to convince/backstory EU subsidy of Intel's new foundry in Germany. Hockey stick charts and Product Life Cycle extension graphics. That'll convince the investors!
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
22,278 (6.02/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar b650m wifi
Cooling Thermalright Peerless Assassin
Memory 32GB Corsair Vengeance 30CL6000
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Lexar NM790 4TB + Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 980 1TB + Crucial BX100 250GB
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Lian Li A3 mATX White
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse Steelseries Aerox 5
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W11 IoT Enterprise LTSC
Benchmark Scores Over 9000
'Let's set a goalpost far into the future so we can delay it further and people keep believing'

Also... this. lmao. Such graph, many data

1687436227250.png
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.22/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
'Let's set a goalpost far into the future so we can delay it further and people keep believing'

Also... this. lmao. Such graph, many data

View attachment 302031
I can't believe they posted that.

And I think they're signing their own death toll.

So they're going to open up they're world second or third class fabbs, all at the same time several countries build new fabbs and despite the reality that other fabbs already sit in that space reliably churning out CHEAP chips.

Geniarse.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,752 (0.80/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
"Intel Expects to Beat TSMC at 2nm"

And I expect it to rain literal cats and dogs. I honestly don't know who they're trying to convince with this BS that they keep spraying - the entire industry knows that Intel f**ked up 10nm, that their "Intel 7" process is still 10nm, and that "Intel 4" is just "Intel 7" with EUV (so... still 10nm). Then there's the fact that they farmed out the fabrication of their own GPUs to their arch-rival TSMC...

If Intel were smart (which they've proven that they're very obviously not) they'd fire their entire marketing team and switch to only announcing when they get something launched, as opposed to endlessly pumping out empty drivel that causes people to completely ignore when the company actually has something interesting to say.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
1,184 (0.27/day)
Processor AMD Ryzen 3700x
Motherboard asus ROG Strix B-350I Gaming
Cooling Deepcool LS520 SE
Memory crucial ballistix 32Gb DDR4
Video Card(s) RTX 3070 FE
Storage WD sn550 1To/WD ssd sata 1To /WD black sn750 1To/Seagate 2To/WD book 4 To back-up
Display(s) LG GL850
Case Dan A4 H2O
Audio Device(s) sennheiser HD58X
Power Supply Corsair SF600
Mouse MX master 3
Keyboard Master Key Mx
Software win 11 pro
'Let's set a goalpost far into the future so we can delay it further and people keep believing'

Also... this. lmao. Such graph, many data

View attachment 302031
Seems like it's the only thing that they can do at this point...mocking Intel was fun for a while, but the whole foundry situation start to become really worrying. If they can't keep up, and get some clients, Intel will either:
- Try and compete on an inferior node (for a while, until they grow frustrated)
- Or pull an AMD, and become a TSMC client at 100% (which will happen if they can't somehow design an arch that is efficient enough to make up for the node disadvantage).

Meteor lake was supposed to be there nearly 2 CPU generation ago...and according to Raichu even Arrow lake is struggling. The future is looking really bright for Taiwan :D
1687438939295.png
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,752 (0.80/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
Seems like it's the only thing that they can do at this point...mocking Intel was fun for a while, but the whole foundry situation start to become really worrying. If they can't keep up, and get some clients, Intel will either:
- Try and compete on an inferior node (for a while, until they grow frustrated)
- Or pull an AMD, and become a TSMC client at 100% (which will happen if they can't somehow design an arch that is efficient enough to make up for the node disadvantage).

Meteor lake was supposed to be there nearly 2 CPU generation ago...and according to Raichu even Arrow lake is struggling. The future is looking really bright for Taiwan :D
View attachment 302038
Intel is never going to divest itself of its foundries, they're too much of a pride thing for the company. Over and above that there are tangible advantages to having your own foundries, in particular that you don't have to fight others for capacity.

Of course, if you don't have a functioning manufacturing process you don't have to fight over capacity anyway, sincev you're not producing anything; maybe that's Intel's rationale?
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
1,600 (1.49/day)
Location
Mississauga, Canada
Processor Ryzen 7 5700X
Motherboard ASUS TUF Gaming X570-PRO (WiFi 6)
Cooling Noctua NH-C14S (two fans)
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3200
Video Card(s) Reference Vega 64
Storage Intel 665p 1TB, WD Black SN850X 2TB, Crucial MX300 1TB SATA, Samsung 830 256 GB SATA
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG27, and Samsung S23A700
Case Fractal Design R5
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME TITANIUM 850W
Mouse Logitech
VR HMD Oculus Rift
Software Windows 11 Pro, and Ubuntu 20.04
I wouldn't write Intel off that quickly. For a long time, they had a long lead over the rest of the industry. Skipping EUV and going for Cobalt in the smallest metal layers are widely suspected to be what led to the problems with Intel 7. Let's see if they can fix this with Intel 4. In any case, even if they deliver Intel 4 on time, they would still be behind TSMC which started mass production on N3 at the very end of 2022.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2020
Messages
136 (0.10/day)
"Intel Expects to Beat TSMC at 2nm"

And I expect it to rain literal cats and dogs. I honestly don't know who they're trying to convince with this BS that they keep spraying - the entire industry knows that Intel f**ked up 10nm, that their "Intel 7" process is still 10nm, and that "Intel 4" is just "Intel 7" with EUV (so... still 10nm). Then there's the fact that they farmed out the fabrication of their own GPUs to their arch-rival TSMC...

If Intel were smart (which they've proven that they're very obviously not) they'd fire their entire marketing team and switch to only announcing when they get something launched, as opposed to endlessly pumping out empty drivel that causes people to completely ignore when the company actually has something interesting to say.
From what I've read:
None of the nodes are physically less then 20nm. (Intel, TMSC or Samsung)
FINFETs leak less then MOSFETs so they can be packed denser.
Then the advertisers can claim that the FINFET is at 14 nm because is has the expected performance of 14 nm MOSFETs.
Gate-all-around leak even less, but the transistors are actually larger then FINFETs...but(again) can be packed even tighter then FINFETs.
Those node numbers have been meaningless since 2010.

It is not that Intel could not make the "10nm" chips. They could not make them in sufficient quantity to satisfy the market and keep their fat profit margins.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,752 (0.80/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
I wouldn't write Intel off that quickly.
It's not quickly. The Intel "10nm" trainwreck has been going on for literally years and there's still no end in sight. There's also no indication that they've learned from their mistake with 10nm - there's very much the sense of the sunk cost fallacy completely taking over the foundry side of the company.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
1,600 (1.49/day)
Location
Mississauga, Canada
Processor Ryzen 7 5700X
Motherboard ASUS TUF Gaming X570-PRO (WiFi 6)
Cooling Noctua NH-C14S (two fans)
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3200
Video Card(s) Reference Vega 64
Storage Intel 665p 1TB, WD Black SN850X 2TB, Crucial MX300 1TB SATA, Samsung 830 256 GB SATA
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG27, and Samsung S23A700
Case Fractal Design R5
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME TITANIUM 850W
Mouse Logitech
VR HMD Oculus Rift
Software Windows 11 Pro, and Ubuntu 20.04
It's not quickly. The Intel "10nm" trainwreck has been going on for literally years and there's still no end in sight. There's also no indication that they've learned from their mistake with 10nm - there's very much the sense of the sunk cost fallacy completely taking over the foundry side of the company.
I understand you skepticism and I share it too. They have to start making their processes available on time before anyone trusts them to even match TSMC let alone surpass them.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
6,133 (1.52/day)
Location
Over here, right where you least expect me to be !
System Name The Little One
Processor i5-11320H @4.4GHZ
Motherboard AZW SEI
Cooling Fan w/heat pipes + side & rear vents
Memory 64GB Crucial DDR4-3200 (2x 32GB)
Video Card(s) Iris XE
Storage WD Black SN850X 4TB m.2, Seagate 2TB SSD + SN850 4TB x2 in an external enclosure
Display(s) 2x Samsung 43" & 2x 32"
Case Practically identical to a mac mini, just purrtier in slate blue, & with 3x usb ports on the front !
Audio Device(s) Yamaha ATS-1060 Bluetooth Soundbar & Subwoofer
Power Supply 65w brick
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2
Keyboard Logitech G613 mechanical wireless
Software Windows 10 pro 64 bit, with all the unnecessary background shitzu turned OFF !
Benchmark Scores PDQ
"Intel Expects to Beat TSMC at 2nm"
yup, good luck with that :D

maybe they should restart the whole "+, ++, +++, ++++++++......" thing again, perhaps that will yield them some successful product launches....hehehe :roll:
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
1,184 (0.27/day)
Processor AMD Ryzen 3700x
Motherboard asus ROG Strix B-350I Gaming
Cooling Deepcool LS520 SE
Memory crucial ballistix 32Gb DDR4
Video Card(s) RTX 3070 FE
Storage WD sn550 1To/WD ssd sata 1To /WD black sn750 1To/Seagate 2To/WD book 4 To back-up
Display(s) LG GL850
Case Dan A4 H2O
Audio Device(s) sennheiser HD58X
Power Supply Corsair SF600
Mouse MX master 3
Keyboard Master Key Mx
Software win 11 pro
mmmh. Some rumors About Intel just actually using TSMC 3nm for ARL compute tile start to appear. It's going to be a mix of 20A and 3nm depending of the yields and SKUs.
 
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
2,881 (1.21/day)
Was there a shareholder meeting this week? Intel maybe be broke, but their PR spin-doctoring department has unlimited funds it seems to spread BS.

Take this with two buckets of salt.
 

Fourstaff

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
10,072 (1.85/day)
Location
Home
System Name Orange! // ItchyHands
Processor 3570K // 10400F
Motherboard ASRock z77 Extreme4 // TUF Gaming B460M-Plus
Cooling Stock // Stock
Memory 2x4Gb 1600Mhz CL9 Corsair XMS3 // 2x8Gb 3200 Mhz XPG D41
Video Card(s) Sapphire Nitro+ RX 570 // Asus TUF RTX 2070
Storage Samsung 840 250Gb // SX8200 480GB
Display(s) LG 22EA53VQ // Philips 275M QHD
Case NZXT Phantom 410 Black/Orange // Tecware Forge M
Power Supply Corsair CXM500w // CM MWE 600w
Hope their engineering dept can keep up with their Investor Relations promises.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,752 (0.80/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
Was there a shareholder meeting this week? Intel maybe be broke, but their PR spin-doctoring department has unlimited funds it seems to spread BS.

Take this with two buckets of salt.
Hope their engineering dept can keep up with their Investor Relations promises.
When a company's marketing department starts making promises the engineers can't keep, it indicates significant rot at that company. In a company as big as Intel, that's a lot of rot... enough to make you wonder how long until the whole shambling edifice comes crashing down.
 
Top