Who'll be the better president?

[Bigjohn]

Originally Posted by Odin Eidolon

Could be BigE. I dont live in the US so i dont care of the taxes you pay, and i dont know how much you pay/how much you will pay. what i know is that McCain is simply a copy of Bush.

You could not be more wrong. They disagree on MUCH... Very much.

McCain is more of a centrist than Bush...

[Apocolypse007]

When McCain votes with Bush on 4/5 ratio, I would say his views are very much like Bush's.

[Polaris573]

For those of you willing to do homework before voting rather than parroting CNN and Fox News soundbytes here is a website I found extremely informative and useful. It also provides useful information on your congressional members as well, because if you are from a small town like I am then accurate information on them is almost non-existent in your local newspaper.

http://www.votesmart.org/

[bigenuffumbrella]

Respectfully,

All my sources were quoted at the end of my post. I don't have time to respond to each and every rebut you made (which is why I posted my sources ) lunch isn't that long. I merely threw these out to give my opinion and to stir the puddin a little.

I will say this though in response to two of your statements that caught my eye:

1 . Taxes are necessary for running a country. A country without taxes would be a shitty one indeed.

I admit taxes are a necessary evil, but if you don't feel like the government get's enough of your pay check already then I'm sorry I can't help you. The lower the taxes the more the government actually collects because people spend more when they have more of their own money to spend. It's a proven concept...and one that JFK embraced himself as he was the last Democratic president who actually lowered taxes.

2. I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing.
Two points here -- 1. How are we going to pay for it? and 2. National health care means government run health care. The government does two things well: collect taxes, and blow shit up. Everything else they suck at. If you'd like to get a glimpse of what hospitals will look like under a national health care plan---go visit a veterans hospital and take a good look. THAT'S what life will be like when health care providers no longer need to compete.

Again, I'm only trying to share my opinion and stir up the debate. I realize the position I hold is unpopular in this forum and I did not come here looking for a fight...only to contribute with my thoughts and to share as much as I am able in the time I have to post-- things the way I see them.

BigE

Originally Posted by mdm-adph

Ooh, me first, me first -- since even though you didn't state who you support, it's still pretty obvious, just let me check on a few things...


More drilling isn't going to fix any problems in the long run. Hell, it's hardly going to fix any in the short run. American oil companies have had leases to drill on offshore land for decades now, and have chosen not to do it (probably in order to keep prices high -- more oil in market = lower oil prices, lower profits for oil companies). How is giving them even more land to not drill on going to help?

This is a very subjective statement -- care to back this up with some evidence?

And... who cares. If military service was a necessary precursor to being President, it would've been entered into the constitution. For example: your last President's military "service" involved mostly sitting behind a desk in the US state of Alabama. Big deal.

Being a Senator also has little to do with being President. Very few Senators have ever been President (only about 15), and some of the best (Lincoln, FDR) were never Senators at all. Thus, amount of time served in the Senate wouldn't necessarily mean someone's going to be a great President.

I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing.

You've got a point here, but this all goes down to personal belief, and has little to do with running a country.

I think 95% of the world here would say that Obama wins that argument.

Source? I seem to recall Obama and Biden saying they support gun rights, explicitly. You may have an argument about what's called in America "CCW licenses," but then CCW licenses were never part of the Constitution to begin with.

Taxes are necessary for running a country. A country without taxes would be a shitty one indeed.

I'd think it'd be quite naive to propose making English the official language of your country at this point when about 13% of your population doesn't even speak it natively.

Once again, source?

And then a bunch more stuff about Obama raising taxes on the upper crust of society (estate taxes, dividend taxes, capital gains taxes). Boring...

(And by the way, I'm not an Obama supporter, but I love fact checking. )

[thoughtdisorder]

Originally Posted by Polaris573

There are third party options such as Ralph Nader, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr. Most people are just too disenchanted with the election process to believe they have any chance. There was a poll recently that asked a group of people whether they preferred a third party candidate to Obama and McCain, the vast majority said yes. When asked whether they believed a third party candidate had any chance of becoming elected the majority said no. Is it not ironic that a large group of people would not vote for the candidate they prefer because they perceive them as unelectable, yet if they all voted for the third party candidate he/she would have a chance at winning? The electorate needs to free itself from this "lesser of two evils" mindset pushed on it by pop-culture and the media. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil no matter how you look at it. This petty fear that a vote must be cast for the most electable Democrat or Republican in order to prevent the opposing and supremely evil Democrat or Republican from becoming elected must stop as well. It is horribly counterintuitive and illogical. On election day as you walk into the booth and confront your "lesser of two evils" ask yourself, "Will I feel better voting for the candidate I believe in and losing, or voting for a candidate I hate and winning?"

Naturally none of this applies if you believe [Insert Republican or Democrat Here] will make the greatest president ever.

Very well put.

I've often wondered what would happen if one day every voter in the US woke up and cut their Republican and Democrat voter ID's in half, then registered as an Independent. We could remove a lot of corruption and "fat cats" from Washington with just that simple action. (IMO)

[mdm-adph]

Originally Posted by Bigjohn

The biggest flaw in the arguments of mdm-adph and the rest of the Europeans here is that, after years of indoctrination by their states, they have come to believe 2 things:

Cool -- now I'm a European. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Bigjohn

But to take money from someone who's earned it, for the benefit of another, is theft.

Benjamin Franklin put it quite clearly, the US is NOT a democracy. It's a republic. He said, "A democracy is two wolves and sheep arguing over whats for dinner".

I can't even begin to describe what's wrong with thinking like this. Try putting down the Ayn Rand books once in a while.

Taxes are not theft. Please stop thinking that. Taxes are willingly paid. Theft is not willing. As most Americans continue to pay their taxes without staging an armed rebellion (which you've done in the past), I assume they're okay with the present level of taxation.

And oh yeah -- Benjamin Franklin and the founders of the Constitution were okay with taxation. It's all in there. Simply saying that "taxation is theft" is very simplistic thinking.

Originally Posted by Polaris573

For those of you willing to do homework before voting rather than parroting CNN and Fox News soundbytes here is a website I found extremely informative and useful. It also provides useful information on your congressional members as well, because if you are from a small town like I am then accurate information on them is almost non-existent in your local newspaper.

http://www.votesmart.org/

Thank you for that wonderful site.

Originally Posted by bigenuffumbrella

Respectfully,
...
2. I don't know how you can state someone's refusal to give everyone national health care to be a good thing.
Two points here -- 1. How are we going to pay for it? and 2. National health care means government run health care. The government does two things well: collect taxes, and blow shit up. Everything else they suck at. If you'd like to get a glimpse of what hospitals will look like under a national health care plan---go visit a veterans hospital and take a good look. THAT'S what life will be like when health care providers no longer need to compete.
BigE

If you were to go into a US veterans hospital, you know what you'd find? People receiving health care, without having to fork over money for a bill afterwards.

I think a lot of Americans would love to have that, no matter how sparse or "terrible" the care is.

[iStink]

I get like 10 emails a day from assholes who spam for mccain talking about how obama will ruin the country and he won't solve anything. Then they say stuff like "We need your support NOW more than ever!" and I think to myself OF COURSE they need my support NOW, election time is around the corner. My support isn't gonna be much help AFTER election is it? It's that kind of annoying bs that makes me want to vote for obama.

[trt740]

Originally Posted by iStink

I get like 10 emails a day from assholes who spam for mccain talking about how obama will ruin the country and he won't solve anything. Then they say stuff like "We need your support NOW more than ever!" and I think to myself OF COURSE they need my support NOW, election time is around the corner. My support isn't gonna be much help AFTER election is it? It's that kind of annoying bs that makes me want to vote for obama.

Hope Obama does get elected because then America will get what it deserves and maybe then they will do their home work, next time, before they elect a activist exstremist to the white house.

[bigenuffumbrella]

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. The idea of Democracy was sickening to our founding fathers--read ANYTHING on the subject by Jefferson, Adams and specifically Ben Franklin. Really read it...look it up...don't just take what you've "heard" --or even what I've said as the way things are...look at what they wrote and read for yourself. Big John's earlier quote was right on:

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Ben Franklin

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears NO WHERE in the Bill or Rights or the Constitution. <--check that fact out. NO WHERE. We live in a "democratic society"--small d--in the sense that we all have inalienable rights and the right to free speech...but our form of government is NOT a Democracy.

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too.

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by mdm-adph

Cool -- now I'm a European. Thanks!

I can't even begin to describe what's wrong with thinking like this. Try putting down the Ayn Rand books once in a while.

Taxes are not theft. Please stop thinking that. Taxes are willingly paid. Theft is not willing. As most Americans continue to pay their taxes without staging an armed rebellion (which you've done in the past), I assume they're okay with the present level of taxation.

And oh yeah -- Benjamin Franklin and the founders of the Constitution were okay with taxation. It's all in there. Simply saying that "taxation is theft" is very simplistic thinking.



Thank you for that wonderful site.


If you were to go into a US veterans hospital, you know what you'd find? People receiving health care, without having to fork over money for a bill afterwards.

I think a lot of Americans would love to have that, no matter how sparse or "terrible" the care is.

Originally Posted by bigenuffumbrella

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. The idea of Democracy was sickening to our founding fathers--read ANYTHING on the subject by Jefferson, Adams and specifically Ben Franklin. Really read it...look it up...don't just take what you've "heard" --or even what I've said as the way things are...look at what they wrote and read for yourself. Big John's earlier quote was right on:

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Ben Franklin

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears NO WHERE in the Bill or Rights or the Constitution. <--check that fact out. NO WHERE. We live in a "democratic society"--small d--in the sense that we all have inalienable rights and the right to free speech...but our form of government is NOT a Democracy.

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too.

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.

Unfortunately I only get one "Thank" button. Very Very well said, nobody ever realizes that this is a republic and not a democracy, glad there are a few more out there

[proletariandan]

Originally Posted by bigenuffumbrella

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. The idea of Democracy was sickening to our founding fathers--read ANYTHING on the subject by Jefferson, Adams and specifically Ben Franklin. Really read it...look it up...don't just take what you've "heard" --or even what I've said as the way things are...look at what they wrote and read for yourself. Big John's earlier quote was right on:

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. --Ben Franklin

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears NO WHERE in the Bill or Rights or the Constitution. <--check that fact out. NO WHERE. We live in a "democratic society"--small d--in the sense that we all have inalienable rights and the right to free speech...but our form of government is NOT a Democracy.

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too.

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.

Property (more accurately, expropriated surplus value from private ownership of strategic capital) is theft...taxes are just a way for the more enlightened bourgeoisie to finance an army (among other things) to defend their property, their empire, and keep social revolution at bay.

The reality is that there are many, many more sheep than wolves, and it is the wolves who have run this country, fleecing the working class for 232 years. It should be no surprise the wolves have always been afraid of democracy.

Democracy and plutocracy are the only options; plutocracy was viable until it created and educated its own executioners - its time is running out.

[Polaris573]

The house just passed the bailout.

The Iron Law of Oligarchy.

[Sc1mitar]

Firstly, im a canadian.

I have a small business, and i can tell you this.

The less f*ckin government involvement the better. The lower the taxes the better. Work hard, make your money, enjoy life. Dont be a suck living on gov. assistance cause your ass is too lazy to get a job.

On public healthcare:
public healthcare is great, as long as you are young. As soon as you get older, like 65+, they dont give a fck, because youve already paid them your taxes, then its w/e you can go die. thats what happened to my grandfather, so we flew him out to indiannapolis, and then South Cali for private treatment, which was like right the fck now available, none of this 3 month waiting bullshit we have here.

Why would anyone want a lieing f*ck to run their lives and take their money away is beyond me. Stay away from me Mr politician, i dont want nothing to do w/ you, unless your giving me back some of the moneys ya took.

On that matter, i dont think any of those bastard politicians are good for us. But id vote for the republicans cause atleast they seem to be able to understand free market policy, not this socialist bullsht we have here in Canada.


to all the naysayers, dont worry.
someone once said;
if your 20 and not a socialist, you dont have a heart
if your 40 and not a conservative, you dont have a brain

dont remember but that is about as true as it gets.


-sc1m


ps: they rlly need to build some nuclear powerplants, srsly. nothing like cheap electricity.

[btarunr]

I love how Nader uses the term "Wall Street Crooks"

[mdm-adph]

Originally Posted by bigenuffumbrella

Dude I'm sorry...I can't help you. You have absolutely no concept of liberty. Zero. I don't mean that to be offensive...it's just seems you're conditioned to think that the government is a good thing. More government is NEVER a good thing. It was true 232 years ago, it's true today, and it will be true 232 years from now: "That government is best which governs least." --Thomas Paine.

Also...the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. [...]

Democracy is mob rule. The word "Democracy" appears [...]

Why are the two concepts of taxation and liberty mutually exclusive in your mind? I don't know if I can help you...

(Good lord -- 90% of your post was basically a big discussion about what is or is not a "democracy." I don't care what you call the government -- "democracy," "republic," -- who cares? We're talking about taxes... I think.)

Originally Posted by bigenuffumbrella

On taxes: Taxes are NEVER "willingly" paid. The are taken...from its citizens by the government by means of force. IE if you don't pay or pay enough you go to jail...doesn't sound like a very willing payment plan to me.

Did you know that this country was founded by a bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth...and one of their reasons was taxation? Did you know that the level of those taxes, even taking into consideration inflation, value of the pound, etc was a mere FRACTION of what we pay in taxes right now?

Taxes are never willingly paid. Let me rephrase...at least I'M never happy about it. If you are, God bless you...if it gives you a thrill you can pay my share too.

Personally I feel like I can spend my money more wisely that Washington can. But that's just me.

"A bunch of men who decided to rebel against the greatest super power on Earth," and thus formed their own country, and immediately set about taxing the hell out of its citizens.

What's your point?

Did you go to school? You enjoyed the benefits of taxation.

Do you drive on roads? You enjoy the benefits of taxation.

Do you enjoy the Internet? You enjoy the benefits of taxation.

Buddy, if you don't want to be taxed, you're more than welcome to go build you a little shack out of logs in the woods somewhere, and live off the grid. Just make sure to stay there and leave the rest of civilization alone.

Taxes are willingly paid -- you pay them by virtue of working and earning wages. If you don't want to get taxed -- stop working. Live in a cave. Kill badgers for food.

I can't think of one civilization that hasn't survived through some sort of taxation.

Originally Posted by Sc1mitar

to all the naysayers, dont worry.
someone once said;
if your 20 and not a socialist, you dont have a heart
if your 40 and not a conservative, you dont have a brain

...and if you're 50 and haven't learned that the right answer is a healthy mix of both, then you're hopeless.

[Nitro-Max]

I think most of the world will be watching how this plays out and who they want as president even though they cant vote America has such a big role and influence on the rest of the world i think everyone has there ideas about who should be president after all negotitations on gas prices for the usa has effects on how much we british pay and we already pay way way more.
Plus the fact that we are close allies and i think well have to work together for some time yet.
The arctic is unclaimed territory and as more land is been revealed by melting snow/ice the more countrys are becoming interested in it because of the natural resources it will have to offer russia has already put a claim to part of it and i think so has the usa bet your life china will follow suite so there could end up being another war over that pretty soon.

[pepsi71ocean]

Originally Posted by trt740

Hope Obama does get elected because then america will get what it deserves and maybe then they will do their homwork, next time, before they elect a activist exstremist to the white house.

IMO Obama is all smoke and Mirrors, He is a very charismatic, able to get a huge crowd to follow him, however he is full of hot air.

People forget that he is a preecher, and you should read up on his wifes college thesis, its quite racist from what i can read.

What scares me the most is when he went to iraq and afganistan for 2 weeks, and was quotes as saying that the military is unbalanced and we need more equal numbers of citizen to military, in terms of African Americans/ Latinos to Whites, and let me tell you "How do you get more white boys to join the military? you don't you draft them.

Originally Posted by Polaris573

The house just passed the bailout.

I think the bill is a total waste. this is the last thing that we need is to bury our selves into more debt, let Darwin Economics follow through, let the weak banks die, and let the strong survive, the market must correct its self by its self, otherwise its a bandied fix to a bigger problem.

Originally Posted by Sc1mitar

Firstly, im a canadian.

I have a small business, and i can tell you this.

The less f*ckin government involvement the better. The lower the taxes the better. Work hard, make your money, enjoy life. Dont be a suck living on gov. assistance cause your ass is too lazy to get a job.

My dad make more than 200,000 a year, and if OBAMA wins he will have to let 2 or 3 employees go, because the taxes that obama will implement on both his corporate and personal income will be a lot. He has a company with over 40 full time employees, this is what obama will do, destroy the economics because he fails to understand that the people who make more than 200,000 a year often are business owners and they control economics more than he can. Raising corporate taxes are not going to help with, but send more jobs overseas.

In terms of heath care its really sucks, but how is Obama going to pay for health care when the country is out of budget enough as it is, adding another 800 million/billion etic to the federal budget isn't going to help.

[mdm-adph]

Originally Posted by pepsi71ocean

IMO Obama is all smoke and Mirrors, He is like a HITLER, very charismatic, able to get a huge crowd to follow him, however he is full of hot air.

...and the thread is Godwinnned. Thanks for playing, everyone -- mods, feel free to lock the thread.

[pepsi71ocean]

Originally Posted by mdm-adph

Godwinnned

what does that mean, im confused

[mdm-adph]

Originally Posted by pepsi71ocean

what does that mean, im confused

Read the link. It means when someone has to make a comparison involving Hitler or the German Nazi's, then there's nothing left to talk about and a discussion thread is basically over.

[pepsi71ocean]

Originally Posted by mdm-adph

Read the link. It means when someone has to make a comparison involving Hitler or the German Nazi's, then there's nothing left to talk about and a discussion thread is basically over.

i did read it, but its literature was confusing, and the article wasn't making sense i couldn't draw a comparison, so i edited my original post for wording.

[Kreij]

Originally Posted by mdm-adph

stop working. Live in a cave. Kill badgers for food.

If he takes your advice, he better not move to Wisconsin.
He'll be in jail in a heartbeat.

[mdm-adph]

Originally Posted by Kreij

If he takes your advice, he better not move to Wisconsin.
He'll be in jail in a heartbeat.

One of the many places where I and environmentalists differ. I couldn't care less about badgers, or horned and spotted owls.

[btarunr]

This being a discussion thread to the "weekly poll", there's no way it's going to get locked, at least not until the next poll comes up. However, any nonsensical posts would bring in infractions galore. So if there's nothing worthwhile to post, don't.

[mdm-adph]

Originally Posted by btarunr

This being a discussion thread to the "weekly poll", there's no way it's going to get locked, at least not until the next poll comes up. However, any nonsensical posts would bring in infractions galore. So if there's nothing worthwhile to post, don't.

You know that was a joke about closing the thread, right? Godwin's Law isn't a law of nature, or anything.