Has Israel Gone Stark Raving Mad???

[SystemViper]

Originally Posted by B1gg3stN00b

But what business does the US have operating in the middle east in the first place?

I second the "relocate the Jews" part.

Because if we don't, someday the middle eastern powers will.

Don't you realize one big reason we support them so much, besides all the obivious ones. We talk loudly and carry abig stick and in the MidEast they are our Big Stick.

\I don't agree with everything they do but they give us leverage over there that is implied but very powerfull

[btarunr]

Originally Posted by B1gg3stN00b

It's only become more expensive, and even now it's more than it was before this mess started.

Compare your winter prices of gas with those of Europeans, or even otherwise, compare the price of your gasoline per litre with that of say a German (strong economy but oil isn't cheap).

[SystemViper]

This chart is from August when gas was 3.50 a gallon...




From JUNE...

[B1gg3stN00b]

But who in those countries drives a Chevy Tahoe?

Plus, those countries have a higher cost of living which usually means that the inhabitants of those countries have higher salaries as well.

[B1gg3stN00b]

Originally Posted by SystemViper

Don't you realize one big reason we support them so much, besides all the obivious ones. We talk loudly and carry abig stick and in the MidEast they are our Big Stick.

\I don't agree with everything they do but they give us leverage over there that is implied but very powerfull

But why do we need to carry a big stick over there?

Why can't we just LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE?

Or would that be too civilized and not-idiotic of us to do?

[FordGT90Concept]

Originally Posted by btarunr

Cheap oil.

Most USA oil comes from Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela, and Nigeria (in that order). The only time we really traded significant amounts of oil with Iraq was during the "Food for Oil" campaign which flopped.

Originally Posted by SystemViper

ahhhhh but now we call that national security!

Oil is a national security interest. Try to run all the jets, helicopters, drones, HMMWV, M1s, M2s, ships (small to cruiser sized), launch satellites, etc. without it.


Do realize that gas is comparatively cheaper in the USA because we drive a friggen lot. The average US Citizen daily commute is what? 20+ miles? We spend a lot of time in our cars burning fuel so, we pay less at the pump per visit but we pay more in any given period due to sheer amount of driving. Amplifying this is the fact that vehicles in other countries are generally more fuel efficient due in large part to strict environmental regulations in the USA (also price of fuel). When you add it all up it costs about the same per year even though we use a lot more.

[CyberDruid]

Those poor bastards. If there were but one Jew and one Palestinian left they would still be fighting.

[Paulieg]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

let them fight there not that important for us

That is about the most ignorant statement I've seen written in quite awhile.

[DRDNA]

And yet another mini victory for the Jews . And these People did it by them selves.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/...l_palestinians


Like a pittbull surrounded by rabitts ,oh no ...oh my ..

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by btarunr

Compare your winter prices of gas with those of Europeans, or even otherwise, compare the price of your gasoline per litre with that of say a German (strong economy but oil isn't cheap).

I agree with you that Oil is a big incentive to why we support Israel so much. However there are other countries in the region that would be a lot cheaper to maintain if this was the only thing we were after.

A large part of why we support Israel is also because of the strong Christian belief this is the Holy land and is where our savior was born. Its been instilled over time that the Jews were once the "chosen people" and when they are in trouble we help. If Israel falls its a sign of the "end of times" in the Christian faith. Ill be honest too. If tomorrow the U.S. started a draft I would be the first in line to sign up. However if it were to bare arms against Israel I would be leaving the country.

In reality however our politicians protect Israel to protect the religious vote.

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

Israel is a "western state" in an "eastern world." The "west" has a nasty habit of making sure it stays that way. Honestly, I think Israel is 99% of the problem here. The rest of the Middle East views them as a thorn in their ass. Most are smart enough to not to try to do anything about it because they'll end up like Iraq.

What is happening there is the equivalent of Great Britain imposing that the State of Iowa be a Mexican territory. Had the "west" not stepped up and defended Israel so many times in the past, Israel would be an Arab state like the rest of them. It broods instability in the region.


What strategic operating platform? USA doesn't have any major bases in Israel. We have several in Saudi Arabia and Turkey. We also have many major bases in Iraq. Whenever someone gets bombed in the Middle East, they usually come from the sea (aircraft carrier and missile platforms), USA (24+ hour mission), Germany, or Saudi Arabia. We're smart enough to know that if we put a base in Israel, we'll spend a crapload of resources protecting it. Put it in a more stable country like Saudi Arabia, something big would have to be going down to jeopardize the base.

The only USA military installation (small one at that with only 120 people) in all of Israel is an anti-missile system.

We also need airspace and a logistic supply line. Do you have any idea how many ordinance alone move through Israel for the U.S. military daily? How about Intel? Without the Israeli's we would be blind in that region. We have never used Israel as a staging area but if we had to we could without question. Anyway its not all about combat. Its also about presence. We NEED Israel. Oh and FYI Israel is NOT western in any way other than their weapons and economics.

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

The executive branch doesn't have enough power to ever present itself as a dictatorship. Checks and balances make it impossible. Simply put, there's way too many instituations of government that would have to systematically collapse for a dictatorship to take hold.

Oh? How many "executive" decisions were made without the approval of congress in the last 4 years? Hmm?

[DRDNA]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

I agree with you that Oil is a big incentive to why we support Israel so much. However there are other countries in the region that would be a lot cheaper to maintain if this was the only thing we were after.

A large part of why we support Israel is also because of the strong Christian belief this is the Holy land and is where our savior was born. Its been instilled over time that the Jews were once the "chosen people" and when they are in trouble we help. If Israel falls its a sign of the "end of times" in the Christian faith. Ill be honest too. If tomorrow the U.S. started a draft I would be the first in line to sign up. However if it were to bare arms against Israel I would be leaving the country.

In reality however our politicians protect Israel to protect the religious vote.

Oh yes brother I am with you 100% ....I would be there for them in a second If I could...

[SystemViper]

Originally Posted by B1gg3stN00b

But why do we need to carry a big stick over there?

Why can't we just LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE?

Or would that be too civilized and not-idiotic of us to do?

Oh if life were that easy.... I remember in school, i was big and kids liked to pick on the big guy, it made them feel powerfull that they tormented the big guy, and prob made other kids scared of them. Then one day I couldn';t take it anymore, i was patient for many months and I gave a few of them a good beat down, well all that torment stopped, So i couldn't just leave people alone, I tried real hard to be the bigger person, but at some point you just have to "stop the insanity" and you know what it worked. Then i started my long history of martial arts, and the challange became talking you way out of situations, not violence, but every now and then, it's just nessassary.

That is my expierience, I do not know what is going on around the world but to say

Why can't we just LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE?

is being a little simplistic, and how can i put this, not to realistic, common we believe in high ideals but in life it's just not that simple...
I don't agree with killing inocent people, but if you see guys shooting rockets from my garage, I would run like heck from my house or kick them out of my garage. But again I am not qualified to comment on their situation but only my life expierieces..

[FordGT90Concept]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

A large part of why we support Israel is also because of the strong Christian belief this is the Holy land and is where our savior was born. Its been instilled over time that the Jews were once the "chosen people" and when they are in trouble we help. If Israel falls its a sign of the "end of times" in the Christian faith. Ill be honest too. If tomorrow the U.S. started a draft I would be the first in line to sign up. However if it were to bare arms against Israel I would be leaving the country.

Revelations only makes sense if it is read from the perspective of about 100ad. We best not be getting into how ridiculous religion is as it is an excuse for war, nothing more.

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

We also need airspace and a logistic supply line. Do you have any idea how many ordinance alone move through Israel for the U.S. military daily? How about Intel? Without the Israeli's we would be blind in that region. We have never used Israel as a staging area but if we had to we could without question. Anyway its not all about combat. Its also about presence. We NEED Israel. Oh and FYI Israel is NOT western in any way other than their weapons and economics.

Next to none. Most goods US transports are via merchant marine ships. The same is true for most intercontinental transportation.

Intel has a research team in Israel, true. Guaranteed that the military doesn't give a damn about it.

Without USA spy technology (satellites and aircraft), Israel would be blind. We knew the Six Day War was shifting in Israel's favor because of our ability to know the enemies capabilities before they do. Because of that intelligence, we knew Egypt would be ready to broker an agreement. Israel provides little help in the way of intelligence to the USA.

Saudi Arabia is by far a better provider for information. They have their ear to the Arab ground and when they hear the sounds of war coming, they are quick to let us know and decide what to do together. Most of the time, Israel is completely left out of the loop because they aren't trusted to constrain themselves. This was true during both Gulf wars.

Economics is 75% of a country being considered west or east. Try to find a country that is weak on economics that is considered to be "west."

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Oh? How many "executive" decisions were made without the approval of congress in the last 4 years? Hmm?

Executive decisions are as such in order to allow the executive branch to deal with issues that need an answer within minutes. That doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. Congress has the power to decide they simply didn't like a decision and impeach the acting President. The judicial branch has the power to rule a decision by the executive branch as unconstitutional and revoke his Presidential powers. Bush did nothing impeachable or unconstitutional.

[kiriakost]

Originally Posted by CyberDruid

Those poor bastards. If there were but one Jew and one Palestinian left they would still be fighting.

Thats true, because the Jew would love to have the home of the Palestinian .

Simple as that .

[Mussels]

Originally Posted by kiriakost

Thats true, because the Jew would love to have the home of the Palestinian .

Simple as that .

not sure on your intent there, but that comment is very, very close to racism in my mind. Be careful what you say.

[B1gg3stN00b]

I think he's referring to the Western "conquer everything that opposes us" agenda of Israel.

[B1gg3stN00b]

Originally Posted by SystemViper

Oh if life were that easy.... I remember in school, i was big and kids liked to pick on the big guy, it made them feel powerfull that they tormented the big guy, and prob made other kids scared of them. Then one day I couldn';t take it anymore, i was patient for many months and I gave a few of them a good beat down, well all that torment stopped, So i couldn't just leave people alone, I tried real hard to be the bigger person, but at some point you just have to "stop the insanity" and you know what it worked. Then i started my long history of martial arts, and the challange became talking you way out of situations, not violence, but every now and then, it's just nessassary.

That is my expierience, I do not know what is going on around the world but to say



is being a little simplistic, and how can i put this, not to realistic, common we believe in high ideals but in life it's just not that simple...
I don't agree with killing inocent people, but if you see guys shooting rockets from my garage, I would run like heck from my house or kick them out of my garage. But again I am not qualified to comment on their situation but only my life expierieces..

I'm not talking about Israel on that.

I'm saying why can't the US just fvck off the rest of the world for a while, establish trade, and be nice to everyone?

We don't need all these weapons and all the wars.

Sweden has done without for two centuries, I'm sure we can do so as well.

[thoughtdisorder]

Originally Posted by Mussels

not sure on your intent there, but that comment is very, very close to racism in my mind. Be careful what you say.

I'm with ya on that brother. Racism =

Sometimes we just don't word things right, so I'll give the benefit of doubt on that one, but in the end, we're all just People trying to do the best we can for ourselves and our family. Period.

People. We're all people. Are our dreams and aspirations any different because our skin or ethnicity is different? No. God bless us all, black, white, red, yellow,etc. People are people. Thanks, Mussels.

[kiriakost]

Originally Posted by Mussels

not sure on your intent there, but that comment is very, very close to racism in my mind. Be careful what you say.

Ok lets make it more CLEAR

ITS TIME THE PALESTINIANS TO HAVE THEIR OWN HOME - COUNTRY - NATION

Got that ...

[thoughtdisorder]

Originally Posted by kiriakost

Ok lets make it more CLEAR

ITS TIME THE PALESTINIANS TO HAVE THEIR OWN HOME - COUNTRY - NATION

Got that ...

Better. That's your opinion without lacing any racist hints into your expoundation of communication. Perhaps the Palestinians will get a grip on Hamas and stop firing rockets into Israel. Perhaps not. Hmmm.. (By the way I made up a word, "expoundation", but it sounds pretty groovy. Don't ya think?)

[Mussels]

Originally Posted by kiriakost

Ok lets make it more CLEAR

ITS TIME THE PALESTINIANS TO HAVE THEIR OWN HOME - COUNTRY - NATION

Got that ...

well. not really. i dont follow these things very closely. not sure if thats a good or bad thing on my part.

Everyone needs a place to stay, without anyone else telling them what to do. I agree with that.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by kiriakost

Thats true, because the Jew would love to have the home of the Palestinian .

Simple as that .

That comment is bigoted. I would debate you but I don't think you would offer much of a challenge.


See what I did there?

[thoughtdisorder]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

That comment is bigoted. I would debate you but I don't think you would offer much of a challenge.


See what I did there?

I love you, man!

[CyberDruid]

I don't get it. How is stating what appears to be a clear fact bigotted? Israel has been expanding into Palestine so why is it bigotted to assume they want the land?

Palestine has pretty much stated it won't stop fighting until Israel disappears. Is that bigotted? No...it's a fact...been on the news a hundred times.

Where does the race card come into this?

Oh and I found the comments my TheMailMan most enlightnening...since he's on the far end of the spectrum from me...

Good to know Joe Sixpack would gladly die for the defense of Israel...and renounce citizenship if the US were to drop it like it's hot...

A lttle weird...but hey that's your choice.

I really don't think Israel is a friend to the US. Like I said way back in this thread Israel is a friend to Israel...they put up with us...like Egypt puts up with us...for what we do for them...but I have not seen any sign they would fight for us.

And the statement by TMM that the reason Joe Sixpack supports Israel is because "It's the Holy Land" and the Jews "Are chosen people" is scarey to me.

The right wing whack jobs in the US that believe in Armageddon and the ascension and the harrowing and all that other BS are trying to influence policy EVERY DAY on the hill...and I am glad to see we've got a Prez coming into office that will not be bent to their will. GWB was way too close to being a Fundamentalist Whack job for me. Palin outright said she was expecting to ascend in her life time...and was looking forward to end times...

This whole reclaim Zion from the Infidels thing has been going on since the crusades. It's based on the (IMO retarded) notion that Jesus will come back and that's where he needs to come back to/from...weird shit.

People laugh at scientology...but it's not much weirder than fundamentalist christianity from my POV. They believe in aliens in Volcanoes or some crap and the other believe the earth is only 5000 years old and Dinosaurs walked around at the time of Jesus...

If TMM is right and the reason we support Israel and all she does is for weird-ass religious reasons then we are really fucked because religions are the main reason for huge amounts of bloodshed...more so than money, sex, or even hate by itself...

So If we are supporting the wars in the "Holy Land" for that reason then what hope is there for peace?

[lemonadesoda]

Originally Posted by dalekdukesboy

how the hell can you even compare Israel as a nation to a terrorist organization...

What is your definition of "terrorism"? If it is creating fear and death to random civilians then I have to say they have behaved as terrorists. The question whether they are justified or whether it is the only means to obtain their objective is ANOTHER question. But by any modern definition of terrorism I have read, I'm afraid it applies. They are also in breach of a number of international War Conventions, and IMO, individuals need to be tried for war crimes.

Some would also say that Operation Wrath of God was also justified. I also think it is defendable to a degree too. But clearly against all international laws: to send assassins to murder in other countries, often killing the wrong person, etc., rather than to bring to justice through legal process.

Israel is however only a MINOR offender in the international scale of things. We only need to look at "ourselves", UK, US, etc. and what nonsense we have been up to. I think that is one of the reasons "our" politicians are doing such a bad job at assisting the peace process... becuase over the last 50 years WE have been part of the problem.

Originally Posted by dalekdukesboy

Israel and certainly the United States of America is the greatest nation on earth, yes flawed, but still the greatest

Nice self-reflective, self-righteous comment. What is your definition of "greatest nation"? Because I bet if you had one, and shared it, other poeple would have other definitions. Therefore your definition, and judgement, is only self serving. Have two nations on the opposite side of the fence both with the same attitude and you have a fight waiting to happen.

Originally Posted by kiriakost

Thats true, because the Jew would love to have the home of the Palestinian . Simple as that.

I think that is true, on average. Not true for every individual, but certainly true for their collective nations as represented by their leaders. But the opposite is also true: Every Palestinian would love to have the home of the Jew.

****

One thing I am not liking about this thread is that there is a lot of "thanking" going on for peoples "attitudes and positions and opinions" rather than information and insight and answers or understanding of issues. We need to remember who we are and why we came to this forum: knowledge share, not fanboism. (Partial, bigoted, one-sided, attitude led statements and bashing).

you're a nutjob.

and

I would debate you but I don't think you would offer much of a challenge

are just plain rude and against the forum rules. How do personal insults and baiting help anybody? It hasnt helped the Palestinians nor the Israelis.