32 bit vs 64 bit: How it relates to video cards

Mussels · Apr 15, 2009, 03:49 AM

I've had to post this too many times so i thought i'd get it out in the correct forum here.

Minor edit: the below text is a bit fuzzy regarding the 2GB limit per application in 32 bit OS's, and focuses on the 4GB total in the OS. There is a 2GB cap in most programs unless they have a "2GB+ aware" flag set in the program - some games have this already (Sup com: forged alliance, for example) but many others do not, and therefore cant use more than 2GB regardless of how much address space is available - if they try to, they crash (usually mid game)

Under a 32 bit OS, you have 4GB total (OS) and 2GB per application.

Under a 64 bit application, 32 bit apps are still capped at 2GB - but if its large address aware (the 2GB+ flag i mention above) then it can use upto 4GB of ram/address space per program.

Under a 32 bit operating system (XP, vista 32) you have 4GB of address space available. Address space is different to the amount of memory in your PC.

The reason a 32 bit system can only use 3GB (or 3.25GB, or whatever number you get) of system ram is because it doesnt have enough address space left. Video cards are the most important part of a PC that uses address space.

If you had 4GB of system ram and a 1GB video card under a 32 bit operating system, each individual program could only use 3GB of that system ram (due to the video card using 1GB of address space) However there is something else most people are NOT aware of.
Under DirectX 9.0C (and lower) video card ram must be duplicated into system ram. That means if you're running on the highest settings with your new shiny 1GB video card - that 1GB of video memory must be duplicated leaving you with only 2GB left for your game.

You just went from 4GB to 2GB, only considering a single 1GB video card. Things only get worse in SLI and crossfire.

Under 64 bit you wouldnt have lost that initial 1GB of ram to the address space, so you'd have 3GB of usable ram, with 1GB used in DX9.0C games. All of a sudden those modern games which border on 1.5-2GB of ram usage are playable, without your system running like a dog.

Side note: It should be noted that DX10/10.1 does not duplicate video memory into system ram. DX10 actually helps to alleviate this issue, if your system is powerful enough to run games in DX10.

Side note 2: There is more than just video card ram that affects this. System page file uses address space, as do various parts related to the BIOS (RAID cards, sound cards with onboard ram, etc) - this is why with a 512MB video card your 32 bit OS may report 3.25GB of ram - 256MB was taken away for everything else

These are the old examples. we've since found out they were a little inaccurate.

Spoiler

Example configs:
32 bit
4GB system ram
1GB video card
3GB system ram usable, 2GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.

2GB system ram
1GB video card
1GB system ram usable, The last 1GB would fight with the video card ram here. If you dont lower texture settings, resolution, and AA you'll get pretty nasty stuttering as you run out of ram.

4GB system ram
2x1GB video cards (SLI/crossfire)
2GB system ram usable, 2GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.
(SLI and crossfire only use one video cards ram. Because of how it works both cards ram is in the address space, but only one cards ram is duplicated)

64 bit
4GB system ram
1GB video card
4GB system ram usable, 3GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.

2GB system ram
1GB video card
1GB system ram usable, The last 1GB would fight with the video card ram. This kind of PC is the one where people claim vista x64 has no real advantage, or slower due to 64 bit using slightly more ram than 32 bit in windows itself.

4GB system ram
2x1GB video cards (SLI/crossfire)
4GB system ram usable, 3GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.
(SLI and crossfire only use one video cards ram. Because of how it works both cards ram is in the address space, but only one cards ram is duplicated)

32 bit
4GB system ram
1GB video card
3GB system ram usable, 2GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.
So that this makes sense: if your game used 512MB of video ram, you'd only have 1.5GB of system ram for the game.
If its a modern game like modern warfare 2, that game can use 900MB of video ram - hence why the game crashes on many 32 bit systems when there isnt enough ram for game and video ram.

2GB system ram
1GB video card
1GB system ram usable, The last 1GB would fight with the video card ram here. If you dont lower texture settings, resolution, and AA you'll get pretty nasty stuttering as you run out of ram.

4GB system ram
2x1GB video cards (SLI/crossfire)
2GB system ram usable, 2GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.
(SLI and crossfire only use one video cards ram. Because ram isnt additive in SLI/Xfire, only one cards ram is duplicated)

64 bit
4GB system ram
1GB video card
4GB system ram usable, 3GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.

2GB system ram
1GB video card
1GB system ram usable, The last 1GB would fight with the video card ram. This kind of PC is the one where people claim vista x64 has no real advantage, or slower due to 64 bit using slightly more ram than 32 bit in windows itself.

4GB system ram
2x1GB video cards (SLI/crossfire)
4GB system ram usable, 3GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.
(SLI and crossfire only use one video cards ram. Because ram isnt additive in SLI/Xfire, only one cards ram is duplicated)

3GB system ram usable, 2GB left in games once video card ram is duplicated.

I was PM'd to edit in a scenario with a system with 8GB+ of ram and 32 bit games. In that situation it would work the same as a 4GB OS, except with more RAM free for background tasks - even if your game is still capped at 4GB, having an extra, 4, 8 or 12GB of ram for your operating system, web browsers, and whatever work you do wont hurt.

Update:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/940105

This link from microsoft has some good info, and fills a gap i'd missed.
You do not need to download the file mentioned, as this is already included in vista SP1 (and you should be on SP2 by now!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS article

On a modern operating system such as Windows Vista, applications run within their own private virtual address space. Typically, the size of the virtual address space is fixed at 2 gigabytes (GB) for 32-bit applications. How much virtual address space is available is not related to how much physical memory there is on the computer.

A modern graphics processing unit (GPU) can have 512 MB or more of video memory. Applications that try to take advantage of such large amounts of video memory can use a large proportion of their virtual address space for an in-memory copy of their video resources. On 32-bit systems, such applications may consume all the available virtual address space.

This shows another side to this - 32 bit applications can only have 2GB total for the entire application, regardless of the amount of available ram and system-wide address space. so even if you have 4GB of ram and 3.5GB showing as available, if you've got a 1GB video card in a 32 bit OS you're in for a world of hurt on high settings on modern games.

Edit: W1zzard has queried the ram duplication, so i managed to find some more links - thanks to Xenos especially.

Quote:

With the introduction of DirectX 10 and Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) in Windows Vista, it is no longer necessary for an application to maintain a copy of its resources in system memory.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/win...mory,7644.html

This article is talking about how the aero desktop was moved from DX9 (WDDM1.0) to DX10 (WDD1.1) and they directly mention how the old (DX9) system required a copy of video ram in system ram.

JanJan · Apr 15, 2009, 10:04 AM

i know questions i'm about to ask is obvious to many people in here but i'm totally new so bear with me..
how can you upgrade from a 32bit OS to a 64bit OS?

Mussels · Apr 15, 2009, 10:07 AM

You need to format and upgrade. It uses a different install disk.

For example if you have windows XP and want to go 64 bit, you will need to go buy windows XP 64 bit.
If you have vista, 32 bit CD keys work on 64 bit - so you can pay shipping and microsoft will send you a 64 bit disk.

crazy pyro · Apr 15, 2009, 10:11 AM

Right, cheers for that Mussels.

Darknova · Apr 15, 2009, 10:28 AM

Nice information. Thanks Mussels!

Ahhzz · Apr 15, 2009, 12:20 PM

Thanks very much Mussels. Informative. I didn't know that at all. Appreciate it.

silkstone · Apr 15, 2009, 02:52 PM

Nice Thread Muss, i'' bookmark it and just paste is into all the hundreds of future x64 vs. x86 threads

Strange - I thought crysis was DX 10? - When i tried it with only 2gb and a 512mb video card it stuttered like hell. Even 3gb wasn't enough to eliviate this problem i had to use 4gb (using vista 64). It seemed like it was still shadowing the video ram even tho its a dx 10 game.'

Mussels · Apr 15, 2009, 02:58 PM

crysis is very VERY badly coded for DX10.

Games like crysis are DX9 ran through an automated converter to DX10... and it doesnt work well. they run like crap.

jamupnorth · Apr 17, 2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

You need to format and upgrade. It uses a different install disk.

For example if you have windows XP and want to go 64 bit, you will need to go buy windows XP 64 bit.
If you have vista, 32 bit CD keys work on 64 bit - so you can pay shipping and microsoft will send you a 64 bit disk.

If this is true where do i get the 64 bit disk from microsoft ?

sneekypeet · Apr 17, 2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamupnorth

If this is true where do i get the 64 bit disk from microsoft ?

At the store

jamupnorth · Apr 17, 2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneekypeet

At the store

Cant find that at the store

HellasVagabond · Apr 17, 2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

crysis is very VERY badly coded for DX10.

Games like crysis are DX9 ran through an automated converter to DX10... and it doesnt work well. they run like crap.

Still the DX10 version of Crysis produces better graphics than the DX9 one.

MadClown · Apr 17, 2009, 10:26 PM

Great post, very good info.

Mussels · Apr 18, 2009, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellasVagabond

Still the DX10 version of Crysis produces better graphics than the DX9 one.

yes, but at a massive performance hit.

In theory, DX10 should be faster than dX9 - lazy coding is the reason it isnt so in most games.

FordGT90Concept · Apr 18, 2009, 04:37 AM

Yup, most DX10 games are still DX9 at heart. DX10 cleaned up a lot of filth that has accumulated in DX9 over the years but, it really doesn't matter because the transistion to purely DX10 or greater (as in no pre-DX10 render path) is still going slow.

silkstone · Apr 18, 2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamupnorth

Cant find that at the store

Then use google and use the legit key from 32bit vista on the 64bit download.

hat · Apr 18, 2009, 06:13 AM

I never knew that vram was copied to system ram like that... that's pretty shitty actually

95Viper · Apr 18, 2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:Originally Posted by Mussels

"You need to format and upgrade. It uses a different install disk.

For example if you have windows XP and want to go 64 bit, you will need to go buy windows XP 64 bit.
If you have vista, 32 bit CD keys work on 64 bit - so you can pay shipping and microsoft will send you a 64 bit disk."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamupnorth

If this is true where do i get the 64 bit disk from microsoft ?

Mussels is correcto mundo!

Go here:http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...a/default.mspx

You have to pay shipping and handling...

Or for around 349 us dollars, join Technet and use just about all their software, for unlimited evalution...sometimes you can catch it discounted.

jamupnorth · Apr 18, 2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95Viper

Quote:Originally Posted by Mussels

"You need to format and upgrade. It uses a different install disk.

For example if you have windows XP and want to go 64 bit, you will need to go buy windows XP 64 bit.
If you have vista, 32 bit CD keys work on 64 bit - so you can pay shipping and microsoft will send you a 64 bit disk."

Mussels is correcto mundo!

Go here:http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...a/default.mspx

You have to pay shipping and handling...

I have tried this and it does not seem to like the product keys on the back of 2 of my laptops ? any ideas ?

I think the offer has expired

Or for around 349 us dollars, join Technet and use just about all their software, for unlimited evalution...sometimes you can catch it discounted.

I have tried this and it does not seem to like the product keys on the back of 2 of my laptops ? any ideas ?

I think the offer has expired

Kweku · Apr 18, 2009, 05:39 PM

Nice and informative... I once had a rig with 4GB of ram, but windows only saw 3GB of it, at the time i had a 512MB 8800GT card, so yeah, and funny i was opting to go SLI on that rig.

Anyways, nice info. Its gonna come in very handy with what I'm building next

95Viper · Apr 18, 2009, 05:54 PM

Make sure that the key code is for the country you are trying to get...for ex. us for us or uk for uk.

If that does not work try calling:http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...t/default.mspx
United Kingdom
Phone: 08082341460
Toll (English, French, German): +49 5241 999 727
E-mail: Vista-am@msdirectservices.com

I have heard they have a problem sometimes with OEM keys.

GTX · Apr 18, 2009, 06:01 PM

wat bout if i have
2gb of ram and a 512mb vid ?

crazy pyro · Apr 18, 2009, 06:05 PM

Then you aren't affected.

silkstone · Apr 18, 2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy pyro

Then you aren't affected.

Unless your using dx9 which shadows the ram and so in effect the game would only have 1.5gb minus sstem processes?

jamupnorth · Apr 18, 2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95Viper

Make sure that the key code is for the country you are trying to get...for ex. us for us or uk for uk.

If that does not work try calling:http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...t/default.mspx
United Kingdom
Phone: 08082341460
Toll (English, French, German): +49 5241 999 727
E-mail: Vista-am@msdirectservices.com

I have heard they have a problem sometimes with OEM keys.

I tried to but they are shut for the weekend , i also have an old copy of vista ultimate with no keys , could i install the 64bit version off that and use the genuine 32 bit keys that i have ?

One last point can i just upgade from 32it to 64 bit and leave all my files ok or does it have to be a full reinstall , format etc ?

Sorry if this has nothing to do with graphics cards

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Apr 15, 2009, 10:07 AM	#3
Mussels Doctor Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bendigo, Australia (NOT THE USA) Posts: 34,560 (10.96/day) Thanks: 3,700 Thanked 8,694 Times in 6,393 Posts System Specs	You need to format and upgrade. It uses a different install disk. For example if you have windows XP and want to go 64 bit, you will need to go buy windows XP 64 bit. If you have vista, 32 bit CD keys work on 64 bit - so you can pay shipping and microsoft will send you a 64 bit disk. __________________ Edumacational thread about PC Audio My external HDD's.5x samsung 1TB + 2x Seagate 1.5TB = 8 TB external storage 32 Bit OS vs 64 bit OS information How to get hardware accelerated H264 playback (DXVA) Netbook Owners United!

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Apr 15, 2009, 10:11 AM	#4
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Apr 15, 2009, 10:04 AM	#2
JanJan Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 494 (0.33/day) Thanks: 166 Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts System Specs	i know questions i'm about to ask is obvious to many people in here but i'm totally new so bear with me.. how can you upgrade from a 32bit OS to a 64bit OS?

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Apr 15, 2009, 10:28 AM	#5
Darknova Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Manchester, United Kingdom Posts: 4,342 (1.82/day) Thanks: 113 Thanked 551 Times in 514 Posts System Specs	Nice information. Thanks Mussels!

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Apr 15, 2009, 12:20 PM	#6
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Apr 15, 2009, 02:52 PM	#7
silkstone Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: HCM Vietnam Posts: 2,187 (1.31/day) Thanks: 323 Thanked 346 Times in 289 Posts System Specs	Nice Thread Muss, i'' bookmark it and just paste is into all the hundreds of future x64 vs. x86 threads Strange - I thought crysis was DX 10? - When i tried it with only 2gb and a 512mb video card it stuttered like hell. Even 3gb wasn't enough to eliviate this problem i had to use 4gb (using vista 64). It seemed like it was still shadowing the video ram even tho its a dx 10 game.' __________________ Thanks to BradleyKZN for polishing my sig “oooooooooooh fire!!! and girls...GIRLS and fire!!!!!!! oooooooooooooh runz around clapping hands together” -Marineborn

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Apr 15, 2009, 02:58 PM	#8
Mussels Doctor Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bendigo, Australia (NOT THE USA) Posts: 34,560 (10.96/day) Thanks: 3,700 Thanked 8,694 Times in 6,393 Posts System Specs	crysis is very VERY badly coded for DX10. Games like crysis are DX9 ran through an automated converter to DX10... and it doesnt work well. they run like crap. __________________ Edumacational thread about PC Audio My external HDD's.5x samsung 1TB + 2x Seagate 1.5TB = 8 TB external storage 32 Bit OS vs 64 bit OS information How to get hardware accelerated H264 playback (DXVA) Netbook Owners United!

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Apr 17, 2009, 10:26 PM	#13
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Apr 18, 2009, 04:37 AM	#15
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Motherboard:	DFI LP DK X58
Cooling:	Sythe MUGEN-2 w/ Stock Fan
Memory:	3 x 2 GiB OCZ Gold DDR3-1600 @ DDR-1066
Video Card:	Sapphire Vapor-X HD 5870 1 GiB
Hard Disk:	2 x Seagate Barracuda 250GB 7200.7 RAID0
Optical Drive:	Samsung 16x DVD-ROM, Pioneer 16x DVD+/-RW
CRT/LCD Model:	Samsung Syncmaster T240 24" LCD (1920x1200)
Case:	Coolermaster HAF 932
Sound Card:	Realtek Onboard, HT OMEGA Striker 7.1
PSU:	Enermax Liberty 620w
Software:	Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Benchmarks:	Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.

Apr 18, 2009, 06:13 AM	#17
hat Maximum Overclocker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 12,236 (5.15/day) Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 2,039 Times in 1,549 Posts System Specs	I never knew that vram was copied to system ram like that... that's pretty shitty actually __________________ My Heatware “Inb4 smartphone LN2 overclocking.” -radrok

System Name:	Starlifter // Dragonfly
Processor:	(lapped) i7 920 4GHz 1.3v // 1090T 3.6GHz 1.3v
Motherboard:	Asus Rampage III // Gigabyte GA-770T-USB3
Cooling:	(lapped) Corsair H70 // (lapped) TT Big Typhoon
Memory:	3x2GB DDR3 1600 10-10-10-30-128-1T 1.5v // 2x2GB DDR3 1333 9-9-9-24-1T 1.5v
Video Card:	HIS Radeon 5870 // BFG Maxcore 55 GTX260
Hard Disk:	Plextor M5S 128GB + 512GB OCZ Agility 4 + 2TB WD20EARS // WDC Black 500GB
Optical Drive:	SATA DVD-RW // IDE CD-RW
CRT/LCD Model:	Dell/Alienware AW2310 + 19" HDTV // 19" HDTV
Case:	Antec SOHO 1030B // some really old white case... but it's decent
Sound Card:	Creative X-Fi Fatality Professional // onboard (disabled)
PSU:	Antec NeoHe 550W // Corsair CX600w
Software:	Windows 7 Home Premium x64 // Windows 7 Home Premium x64
Benchmarks:	zunn zunnzunn zunn zunn

System Name:	Ha/AhHa
Processor:	QX9650 SLAWN C1/i7-980x
Motherboard:	GA-X48_DS4 (F3B bios)/Gigabyte x58A-UDR3 v 2.0(Fh1 bios)
Cooling:	CNPS9900 LED/H60
Memory:	8 Gig of G.Skill F2-8800CL5D/24 Gig Corsair Vengence
Video Card:	Galaxy GTS 465/Gigabyte HD6950 unlocked w\ 1536 shaders
Hard Disk:	150 VRaptor,160 WD, 500 WD,2X 74 Gig VR(RAID0)/SanDisk Extreme 120, 2 WD VR(Raid 0),Seagate 1 TB
Optical Drive:	Asus/HP dvd1270 and Samsung
CRT/LCD Model:	ViewSonic VX2250wm-LED/Asus 266H
Case:	CM-690/CM-690 II adv
Sound Card:	On board (Realtek)/On board (Realtek)
PSU:	PC P&C 750/PC P&C Silencer 950
Software:	Windows 7 Build 7601 SP1 - 64 bit/Same

Apr 18, 2009, 05:39 PM	#20
Kweku Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Africa Posts: 209 (0.11/day) Thanks: 20 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts System Specs	Nice and informative... I once had a rig with 4GB of ram, but windows only saw 3GB of it, at the time i had a 512MB 8800GT card, so yeah, and funny i was opting to go SLI on that rig. Anyways, nice info. Its gonna come in very handy with what I'm building next __________________ The bootLegger http://bootlegmixtape.blogspot.com

System Name:	ProtoType D
Processor:	Intel Core 2 Quad Q8400
Motherboard:	Asus P5Q-E
Cooling:	Home made custom air cooling
Memory:	4GB 800Mhz
Hard Disk:	500GB
CRT/LCD Model:	2 X 17" Samsung LCD
Case:	Raidmax Aztec
PSU:	500W Stainless Steel
Software:	Windows 7 64bit

Apr 18, 2009, 05:54 PM	#21
95Viper Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: στο άλφα έως ωμέγα Posts: 3,841 (2.28/day) Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 1,417 Times in 1,116 Posts System Specs	Make sure that the key code is for the country you are trying to get...for ex. us for us or uk for uk. If that does not work try calling:http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...t/default.mspx United Kingdom Phone: 08082341460 Toll (English, French, German): +49 5241 999 727 E-mail: Vista-am@msdirectservices.com I have heard they have a problem sometimes with OEM keys.

Apr 18, 2009, 06:01 PM	#22
GTX Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 94 (0.05/day) Thanks: 28 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	wat bout if i have 2gb of ram and a 512mb vid ?

Apr 18, 2009, 06:05 PM	#23
crazy pyro Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Newcastle Posts: 1,304 (0.73/day) Thanks: 290 Thanked 137 Times in 121 Posts System Specs	Then you aren't affected. __________________ Lappy: AMD athlon/ turion TK-53 2GB Crucial RAM@667 512MB Generic@667 Acer travelmate motherboard, unsure, Liteon laptop Power supply,ATI mobility Radeon, x1250,120GB HD “Testicles and birthday presents yum!” -joinmeindeath417

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