Nvidia is playing dirty?

[TheMailMan78]

Ok I recently bought a Phyxs card from shadow. I finally got it in and was very excited. The first thing I did was install the latest drivers from Nvidia. What happen? They wouldn't recognize the card. I then contacted Shadow who informed me I had to download the original 7 series driver first and then update to the latest. I had to go with the 8 series but they worked fine.

Once I downgraded the driver my system saw the card fine. UT3 never looked better. Warmonger was a cool novelty and I was really digging this whole Physx thing. Thats until I updated again.

Once I updated the drivers to Nvidias latest my card was still recognized. The only difference was it gave me the option to use the Agiea card or a Geforce card. So I select the Agiea card and be about my way thinking I now have the latest of everything. Go me!

Once I started UT3 again I noticed my performance had dropped a LOT. Not as bad as having no Physx card but not what it was before I "upgraded" the drivers. The Tornado level became down right unplayable. So I checked my CPU usage. I was surprised to see it running at 95 - 100%! How could this be when I had a dedicated PPU? Then it hit me. What if Nvidias new drivers do not dedicate all the physx to a second GPU as Nvidia advertises and off loads some of the work load to the CPU. Here you are thinking you have a "dedicated" GPU for physx and your really just using 50% of it. Makes me think Nvidia is up to shady marketing.

If I'm wrong about this please school me. I'm just looking at what I've see first hand and now tossing the question to the forum. What do you think? Is Nvidia up to no good or am I having a noob moment.

[newtekie1]

The issue is with the latest version of the PhysX System software. As the ageia cards were not nVidia products, and were EOLed, they are essentially no longer supported by nVidia.

When you install the latest nVidia graphics driver, it also installs the latest system software, this breaks the ageia card support.

You have to jump through some hoops to get the Ageia card working properly.

1.) Clean your system of nVidia drivers and PhysX software using control panel+driver sweeper.

2.) Extract the nVidia driver to a folder using 7zip or WinRAR.

3.) Remove the PhysX System Software installer from the folder you just created.

4.) Install the graphics driver by running the setup.exe in the folder.

5.) Install the 8.09.04 PhysX System Software which you can download here.(This is the last version that officially supported the Ageia cards).

6.) Now you can run the system like this, and it should work, but some of the newest games that use the lastest PhysX runtimes might not use the PhysX properly. So you can install the 9.09.0408 PhysX System Software that you removed from the folder earlier.

[LittleLizard]

if u use nvidia mode with an ageia card, the result is that the physx will be processed by the cpu, thus reduciong performance.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

The issue is with the latest version of the PhysX System software. As the ageia cards were not nVidia products, and were EOLed, they are essentially no longer supported by nVidia.

When you install the latest nVidia graphics driver, it also installs the latest system software, this breaks the ageia card support.

You have to jump through some hoops to get the Ageia card working properly.

1.) Clean your system of nVidia drivers and PhysX software using control panel+driver sweeper.

2.) Extract the nVidia driver to a folder using 7zip or WinRAR.

3.) Remove the PhysX System Software installer from the folder you just created.

4.) Install the graphics driver by running the setup.exe in the folder.

5.) Install the 8.09.04 PhysX System Software which you can download here.(This is the last version that officially supported the Ageia cards).

6.) Now you can run the system like this, and it should work, but some of the newest games that use the lastest PhysX runtimes might not use the PhysX properly. So you can install the 9.09.0408 PhysX System Software that you removed from the folder earlier.

However once you install 9.09.0408 it then stops using the PhysX card completely. Nvidia also claims the latest drivers DO support the Agiea cards. It makes me wonder what else they are pulling.

Originally Posted by LittleLizard

if u use nvidia mode with an ageia card, the result is that the physx will be processed by the cpu, thus reduciong performance.

Read the first post again. I never used it in Nvidia mode.

[hat]

I guess the best physx card is a pci 8400 that you can tuck out of the way...

[ShadowFold]

Originally Posted by hat

I guess the best physx card is a pci 8400 that you can tuck out of the way...

But then you would have to use an nvidia gpu.. and what's the point of an nvidia physx card when they can handle it fine with out an extra card.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by hat

I guess the best physx card is a pci 8400 that you can tuck out of the way...

Thats my point. It isn't. I think Nvidia is off loading some of the work to the CPU and claiming the secondary GPU is doing all the work. Marketing gimmick.

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

However once you install 9.09.0408 it then stops using the PhysX card completely. Nvidia also claims the latest drivers DO support the Agiea cards. It makes me wonder what else they are pulling.

Read the first post again. I never used it in Nvidia mode.

Actually, they claim 9.09.0408 is simply a runtime upgrade for Ageia cards, the cards are not fully supported by it.

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Thats my point. It isn't. I think Nvidia is off loading some of the work to the CPU and claiming the secondary GPU is doing all the work. Marketing gimmick.

They aren't doing this, you are just trying to make up a something to make them look bad. Your Ageia card isn't support anymore, which is why the CPU is doing the work. A real secondary GPU would not offload the work to the CPU, this is a problem with the Ageia cards that does not affect the GPUs, and is again caused by the drop of support for Ageia hardware.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

Actually, they claim 9.09.0408 is simply a runtime upgrade for Ageia cards, the cards are not fully supported by it.



They aren't doing this, you are just trying to make up a something to make them look bad. Your Ageia card isn't support anymore, which is why the CPU is doing the work. A real secondary GPU would not offload the work to the CPU, this is a problem with the Ageia cards that does not affect the GPUs, and is again caused by the drop of support for Ageia hardware.

I'm not making anything up. I'm telling you what I see. Also if you look online there are other people saying the same thing. Anyway I wouldn't "make up" something so trivial. Its no benefit to me what so ever. The GPU is not taking on the same workload as the Physx card did. People with both cards seem to be saying the same thing. Turn the fan boy down a little.

[newtekie1]

You are making up the conspiricy, nVidia has nothing to gain from what you claim. A true secondary GPU does not have this issue. It is a known issue with trying to use Ageia hardware, and has been since the 8.10.XXXX system software was released.

[erocker]

Nvidia bought Agiea to get PhysX and dissolve the company. This is old news. When I had that Ageia card only older drivers would work with it and I knew it when I purchased it.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

You are making up the conspiricy, nVidia has nothing to gain from what you claim. A true secondary GPU does not have this issue. It is a known issue with trying to use Ageia hardware, and has been since the 8.10.XXXX system software was released.

Nvidia has a lot to gain from marketing thier GPUs as physx cards. More sales. I don't care Ageia cards have to use old drivers. Thats not the point I am trying to make. What I am saying is a fully dedicated Geforce isnt doing all the work as the Ageia card did. People that have owned both cards are saying the same thing man. I aint making this shit up. I think Nvidia isn't showing all thier cards with these drivers. I think some of the work load is going to the CPU.

Originally Posted by erocker

Nvidia bought Agiea to get PhysX and dissolve the company. This is old news. When I had that Ageia card only older drivers would work with it and I knew it when I purchased it.

Yeah I know. Thats not the point.

[slyfox2151]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Nvidia has a lot to gain from marketing thier GPUs as physx cards. More sales. I don't care Ageia cards have to use old drivers. Thats not the point I am trying to make. What I am saying is a fully dedicated Geforce isnt doing all the work as the Ageia card did. People that have owned both cards are saying the same thing man. I aint making this shit up. I think Nvidia isn't showing all thier cards with these drivers. I think some of the work load is going to the CPU.

Yeah I know. Thats not the point.

are u testing this with a decent nividia card? like an 8600/9600 +?

[DaedalusHelios]

I think this is trolling.

"Real men use real cores" AMD statement, in both avatar and signature and then flaming the competition. Sounds like trolling.


You created an entire thread for trolling a while back and admitted it. I hope this isn't number two.

[erocker]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Yeah I know. Thats not the point.

What is the point? Honestly, I don't understand?

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by DaedalusHelios

I think this is trolling.

"Real men use real cores" AMD statement, in both avatar and signature and then flaming the competition. Sounds like trolling.


You created an entire thread for trolling a while back and admitted it. I hope this isn't number two.

Damn it I ain't trolling. If you think I take any brand that seriously with Micheal Jackson and ET in my avy you my firend need help. By the way what thread are you talking about? Anyway even if I was trolling its none of your damn business. You damn sure don't have a right to call me a troll.

Originally Posted by erocker

What is the point? Honestly, I don't understand?

Ok I have an Agiea card. Its old. If I update the driver the physx portion is offloaded to the CPU. When I researched why I noticed people that have had an Agiea card before get worse performance with a Geforce acting as a dedicated physx card. This makes me think Nvidia isn't being truthful about its GPU being used fully as a physx card.

[W1zzard]

even if what you say is true .. it's called accelerated physics on the gpu. this means that some physics are accelerated, some are not. some can not. physics is not a black box that has no inputs or outputs. inputs and outputs are the cpu so by definition there has to be some cpu load

are you saying your card stopped working once you updated the drivers? possible. nv is not ageia and they dont have to support old products
gpu physics uses some gpu resources which can result in lower fps

show us some cpu usage numbers?

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by W1zzard

even if what you say is true .. it's called accelerated physics on the gpu. this means that some physics are accelerated, some are not. some can not. physics is not a black box that has no inputs or outputs. inputs and outputs are the cpu so by definition there has to be some cpu load

Ok but what I am saying is the Physx card did a better job taking the load off of the CPU where the Geforce is passing it back. Thats not what Nvidia is claiming with its new physx drivers.

Originally Posted by W1zzard

are you saying your card stopped working once you updated the drivers? possible. nv is not ageia and they dont have to support old products
gpu physics uses some gpu resources which can result in lower fps

Listen I know if I update the drivers the new Nvidia drivers do not support my card. I expect the work to be offloaded to the CPU. What I'm reading is that people that have owned my version of the card vs a dedicated Geforce are coming back with negitive results.

Nvidia would have you belive that a GPU is capiable of replacing a dedicated physx card. This may be true. However I do not think thier drivers are up to par with this claim yet.

[DaedalusHelios]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Damn it I ain't trolling. If you think I take any brand that seriously with Micheal Jackson and ET in my avy you my firend need help. By the way what thread are you talking about? Anyway even if I was trolling its none of your damn business. You damn sure don't have a right to call me a troll.

Thats like the KKK saying, "If you think I would wear this white hood and outfit to express my hate for blacks you need help. I wear it because I am a snappy dresser."

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Ok but what I am saying is the Physx card did a better job taking the load off of the CPU where the Geforce is passing it back. Thats not what Nvidia is claiming with its new physx drivers.

Probably to account for the need for more Physx performance needed on recent titles. Also I doubt someone using something like an i7 would see the same drop in performance. It might be too much for the X3?

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by DaedalusHelios

Thats like the KKK saying, "If you think I would wear this white hood and outfit to express my hate for blacks you need help. I wear it because I am a snappy dresser."





Probably to account for the need for more Physx performance needed on recent titles. Also I doubt someone using something like an i7 would see the same drop in performance. It might be too much for the X3?

How surprising you completly missed the point of the avy and the marketing quote. As for my x3 sure. But thats what the hell I'm talking about. You need an i7 to take the damn load from the Geforce.

[DaedalusHelios]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

How surprising you completly missed the point of the avy and the marketing quote. As for my x3 sure. But thats what the hell I'm talking about. You need an i7 to take the damn load from the Geforce.

I thought you liked Michael Jackson. And ET is pretty popular too.

It could possibly be a compatibility issue. Your whole computer is probably newer than that Physx card and its drivers.

Call Ageia and they might give you access to a beta that might solve the problem.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by DaedalusHelios

I thought you liked Michael Jackson. And ET is pretty popular too.

It could possibly be a compatibility issue. Your whole computer is probably newer than that Physx card and its drivers.

Call Ageia and they might give you access to a beta that might solve the problem.

Dude I'm not the one with the problem. I could give a rats ass about the Physx card. I only paid 25 bucks for it. I am talking about Nvidias claims and what they are passing on their customers. I suggest you read all the posts.

[W1zzard]

i dont think nvidia is claiming that their gpu accelerated physics works better than dedicated physx

Certain statements in this press release including, but not limited to, statements as to: the benefits, features, impact, and capabilities of NVIDIA PhysX technology; and the impact of physics on video games; are forward-looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause results to be materially different than expectations. Important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially include: development of more efficient or faster technology; adoption of the CPU for parallel processing; design, manufacturing or software defects; the impact of technological development and competition; changes in consumer preferences and demands; customer adoption of different standards or our competitor's products; changes in industry standards and interfaces; unexpected loss of performance of our products or technologies when integrated into systems as well as other factors detailed from time to time in the reports NVIDIA files with the Securities and Exchange Commission including its Form 10-K for the fiscal period ended January 25, 2009

from some physx related press release

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by W1zzard

i dont think nvidia is claiming that their gpu accelerated physics works better than dedicated physx

But isn't that the whole point of them acquiring Agiea and providing drivers for their GPUs? So you CAN use them as a dedicated physx processor?

Edit:

This is from thier website.

Delivering physics in games is no easy task. It's an extremely compute-intensive environment based on a unique set of physics algorithms that require tremendous amounts of simultaneous mathematical and logical calculations.

This is where NVIDIA® PhysX™ Technology and GeForce® processors come in. NVIDIA PhysX is a powerful physics engine which enables real-time physics in leading edge PC and console games. PhysX software is widely adopted by over 150 games, is used by more than 10,000 registered users and is supported on Sony Playstation 3, Microsoft Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii and PC.

In addition, PhysX is designed specifically for hardware acceleration by powerful processors with hundreds of cores. Combined with the tremendous parallel processing capability of the GPU, PhysX will provide an exponential increase in physics processing power and will take gaming to a new level delivering rich, immersive physical gaming environments with features such as:

•Explosions that cause dust and collateral debris
•Characters with complex, jointed geometries for more life-like motion and interaction
•Spectacular new weapons with incredible effects
•Cloth that drapes and tears naturally
•Dense smoke & fog that billow around objects in motion
The only way to get real physics with the scale, sophistication, fidelity and level of interactivity that dramatically alters your entertainment experience will be with one of the millions of NVIDIA PhysX-ready GeForce processors.

My question is how much is off loaded to the CPU. I don't think people realize how much.

[W1zzard]

gpu physx works fine from nvidia perspective. it offers a feature that some people may factor into their buying decision. also its a nice marketing tool because you can keep sending out press releases for all pointless cuda/physx news