Why the new EFI is so much better than the 25 year old BIOS

qubit · Jan 1, 2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

In the end, the BIOS is still here and still does what it has been doing for the last 25 years: making sure your operating system can boot. It was never designed for today’s massive diversity of hardware. It’s still stuck with 16-bit interfaces and software interrupts, interrupt routing and maximum precision timers, limited ROM execution space (1 MB) and image size, a limited number of initializeable devices (which is critical in the server space), proprietary extensions, and missing modularity—just to name a few issues.

Sounds like EFI can't come too soon. I had no idea the BIOS had so many limitations.

Tom's Hardware

Phxprovost · Jan 1, 2010, 11:30 PM

Will be interesting to see what it can bring to the table thought honestly i don't see the need to change things...but if its beneficial bring it on

On a side note if this is ever adopted.....whats going to happen to companies like AMI and Phoenix?

FordGT90Concept · Jan 1, 2010, 11:50 PM

I've run into to not enough ROM issues on my server in using the latest BIOS and my RAID card. Server hardware is especially borderline functional due to the limits imposed by the BIOS. I just hope this new stuff is backwards compatible in terms of capabilities. I also hope it has a unified and secure means to be upgraded.

qubit · Jan 1, 2010, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

I also hope it has a unified and secure means to be upgraded.

Do you mean secure as in TPM style secure?

FordGT90Concept · Jan 2, 2010, 12:09 AM

Hell no!

I mean non-execute bit, secure memory blocks (read-only), and other technologies that dictate anything loaded on top of the BIOS platform cannot directly modify it--only read from it. It therefore prevents viruses or any software from doing permanent damage to the machine.

TPM is an Infineon technology. It is basically a money laundering scheme like HDCP and DPCP. Worst. "Technologies." Ever. They help the corporations control how you use your electronics. They, in no way, help the consumer. Where the law should prevent such practices, the law (certain members of Congress) is actually trying to see this practices implemented. It is disgusting, appalling, and by every stretch of the word, offensive.

DirectorC · Jan 2, 2010, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phxprovost

i don't see the need to change things

What an odd statement.

Phxprovost · Jan 2, 2010, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirectorC

What an odd statement.

ohh come on, your trying to twist what i said. I was simply stating i have yet to personally experience the supposed short comings of the BIOS so im in no rush to try to find something to replace it

InnocentCriminal · Jan 2, 2010, 12:39 AM

According to that article Foxconn aren't having any of it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxconn

Currently, our boards do not use the Unified Extensible Firmware Interace feature and we don’t have products under development utilizing this type of BIOS.

... >.<

I like the idea of having access to the internet from within my 'BIOS' - features such as being able to troubleshoot when your OS goes bad, or for when you don't want to boot all the way into your OS. Being able to download another users (with the same components as yours) OC profile would be pretty handy for those that are having issues hitting a speed someone else has.

Still - "If it isn't broken, don't fix it."

I've very keen to see EFI implemented in upcoming motherboards, even if it does turn out to be a novelty.

DaedalusHelios · Jan 2, 2010, 12:45 AM

EFI trashes legacy support. Thats why I don't like Apple's lack of support in general.

InnocentCriminal · Jan 2, 2010, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaedalusHelios

EFI trashes legacy support.

For me that isn't a problem.

Kursah · Jan 2, 2010, 12:57 AM

This is kind of interesting, might give it a go on my P5Q Deluxe after I read more of what it's about.

hat · Jan 2, 2010, 01:06 AM

As long as I can still overclock with it I'm good...

DaedalusHelios · Jan 2, 2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hat

As long as I can still overclock with it I'm good...

Current EFI doesn't allow it, short of clock generating software. If you ran EFI-X you could but those are expensive hardware hacks to use PC hardware on OSX and has very limited hardware support.

DanTheBanjoman · Jan 2, 2010, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

I've run into to not enough ROM issues on my server in using the latest BIOS and my RAID card. Server hardware is especially borderline functional due to the limits imposed by the BIOS. I just hope this new stuff is backwards compatible in terms of capabilities. I also hope it has a unified and secure means to be upgraded.

What kind of limits? I can't really think of any apart from the capability to boot from GPT disks, which usually isn't needed.

Mussels · Jan 2, 2010, 01:39 AM

EFI is supported in vista SP1 and onwards, so we're all heading there sooner or later.

Its all down to how long it takes mobo manufacturers to release a board that uses it for the enthusiast community.

FordGT90Concept · Jan 2, 2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanTheBanjoman

What kind of limits? I can't really think of any apart from the capability to boot from GPT disks, which usually isn't needed.

I was booting from the RAID card and also had the itegrated RAID enabled. The card BIOS pretty much filled all the remaining memory allocated by the motherboard BIOS. The new BIOS was (I think) 4 KiB larger which prevented the card BIOS from being loaded.

DanTheBanjoman · Jan 2, 2010, 10:33 AM

That sounds more like a bug/bad design than some limit that applies to the design of whatever standards a BIOS follows.

Mussels · Jan 2, 2010, 10:41 AM

UEFI = will be awesome. but not yet.

i've heard it can have a mini OS and store drivers in there as well, so you do a "BIOS" (UEFI?) flash to update it, and you'll never need to worry about "F6" floppy drivers for RAID ever again

want to repartition a HDD, or resize partitions? no worries, your EUFI has that built in!

its got great possibilities, once they get their asses in gear.

edit: hell, if someone went totally utterly hardcore, they could make the UEFI the main OS, and run virtual machines out of it for your other OS's.
many cool, yet pointless things await!

Fourstaff · Jan 2, 2010, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

many cool, yet pointless things await!

qubit · Jan 2, 2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

UEFI = will be awesome. but not yet.

i've heard it can have a mini OS and store drivers in there as well, so you do a "BIOS" (UEFI?) flash to update it, and you'll never need to worry about "F6" floppy drivers for RAID ever again

want to repartition a HDD, or resize partitions? no worries, your EUFI has that built in!

its got great possibilities, once they get their asses in gear.

edit: hell, if someone went totally utterly hardcore, they could make the UEFI the main OS, and run virtual machines out of it for your other OS's.
many cool, yet pointless things await!

Making a BIOS the whole OS is not a new idea. All the 8-bit computers of the eighties had this and even the grown-up 32-bit Acorn Archimedes released in 1987 did it this way.

Ultimately, removing the current BIOS restrictions and adding in certain flexibilities will probably provide the best balance.

Jizzler · Jan 2, 2010, 12:58 PM

*yawn* When manufacturers actually get around to doing something about it, let me know. Otherwise it's the same discussion every couple years when someone brings up EFI

Mussels · Jan 2, 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jizzler

*yawn* When manufacturers actually get around to doing something about it, let me know. Otherwise it's the same discussion every couple years when someone brings up EFI

but this is UEFI - now with 33.3% more letters than ever before!

mikek75 · Jan 2, 2010, 02:50 PM

MSI released a UEFI (or was it EFI

) bios for my P45 Platinum. I gave it a go but it was crap so I went back to the traditional one, LOL

Jizzler · Jan 2, 2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

but this is UEFI - now with 33.3% more letters than ever before!

Heh, so it does. By the time any one takes notice we'll be up to UEFI-X Pro with Facebook support so that your system can update it's status and give out it's IP for causal encounters with other systems. Unfortunately...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikek75

MSI released a UEFI (or was it EFI

) bios for my P45 Platinum. I gave it a go but it was crap so I went back to the traditional one, LOL

... that feature and EFI as a whole still won't be implemented very well on devices other than Macs if the current trend continues

Oh well, I'm not really losing sleep over it. Just wish that if they're going to get it done - get it done! The possibilities go well beyond what the Tom's article mentions.

DirectorC · Jan 2, 2010, 04:02 PM

I'm still not 100% sure I grasp the concept of EFI. I have been playing with PCs for 16 years, taught myself BASIC and HTML in middle school, taught myself C/C++ in high school, played with the Linux kernel source dode at 16 and built my own custom Linux install, recently got my A+, and have no idea what this EFI exactly is. It's like the EFI does nothing but read data stored by the operating system to get all its configuration? But then the computer needs to have an operating system installed or an OS disk somewhere with basic BIOS-like functions so it can boot? Trying to wrap my head around this.

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Jan 1, 2010, 11:30 PM	#2
Phxprovost Xtreme Refugee Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,148 (0.76/day) Thanks: 240 Thanked 264 Times in 190 Posts System Specs	Will be interesting to see what it can bring to the table thought honestly i don't see the need to change things...but if its beneficial bring it on On a side note if this is ever adopted.....whats going to happen to companies like AMI and Phoenix? __________________ “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

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Jan 1, 2010, 11:50 PM	#3
FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!" Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: IA, USA Posts: 10,577 (6.28/day) Thanks: 1,755 Thanked 2,596 Times in 1,960 Posts System Specs	I've run into to not enough ROM issues on my server in using the latest BIOS and my RAID card. Server hardware is especially borderline functional due to the limits imposed by the BIOS. I just hope this new stuff is backwards compatible in terms of capabilities. I also hope it has a unified and secure means to be upgraded. __________________ Golden Rule of Programming: Never assume. try { SteamDownload(); } catch (Steamception ex) { RageQuit(); }

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Jan 2, 2010, 12:09 AM	#5
FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!" Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: IA, USA Posts: 10,577 (6.28/day) Thanks: 1,755 Thanked 2,596 Times in 1,960 Posts System Specs	Hell no! I mean non-execute bit, secure memory blocks (read-only), and other technologies that dictate anything loaded on top of the BIOS platform cannot directly modify it--only read from it. It therefore prevents viruses or any software from doing permanent damage to the machine. TPM is an Infineon technology. It is basically a money laundering scheme like HDCP and DPCP. Worst. "Technologies." Ever. They help the corporations control how you use your electronics. They, in no way, help the consumer. Where the law should prevent such practices, the law (certain members of Congress) is actually trying to see this practices implemented. It is disgusting, appalling, and by every stretch of the word, offensive. __________________ Golden Rule of Programming: Never assume. try { SteamDownload(); } catch (Steamception ex) { RageQuit(); } Last edited by FordGT90Concept; Jan 2, 2010 at 12:20 AM.

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Jan 2, 2010, 12:45 AM	#9
DaedalusHelios Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,262 (2.22/day) Thanks: 827 Thanked 817 Times in 699 Posts System Specs	EFI trashes legacy support. Thats why I don't like Apple's lack of support in general.

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Jan 2, 2010, 12:57 AM	#11
Kursah Eligible for custom title Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Missoula, Montana, USA Posts: 6,558 (2.72/day) Thanks: 727 Thanked 1,349 Times in 1,118 Posts System Specs	This is kind of interesting, might give it a go on my P5Q Deluxe after I read more of what it's about. __________________ Overclocking is Easy! Get Results! - GTX 260/280 Unofficial Support Thread TPU's Gaming Headphone/Headset Thread - Share your experience - My Heat -

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Jan 2, 2010, 01:06 AM	#12
hat Maximum Overclocker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 12,236 (5.15/day) Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 2,039 Times in 1,549 Posts System Specs	As long as I can still overclock with it I'm good... __________________ My Heatware “Inb4 smartphone LN2 overclocking.” -radrok

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Jan 2, 2010, 01:39 AM	#15
Mussels Doctor Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bendigo, Australia (NOT THE USA) Posts: 34,559 (10.96/day) Thanks: 3,700 Thanked 8,693 Times in 6,392 Posts System Specs	EFI is supported in vista SP1 and onwards, so we're all heading there sooner or later. Its all down to how long it takes mobo manufacturers to release a board that uses it for the enthusiast community. __________________ Edumacational thread about PC Audio My external HDD's.5x samsung 1TB + 2x Seagate 1.5TB = 8 TB external storage 32 Bit OS vs 64 bit OS information How to get hardware accelerated H264 playback (DXVA) Netbook Owners United!

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Jan 2, 2010, 10:33 AM	#17
DanTheBanjoman Señor Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Utrecht, Utrecht, The kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 8,498 (2.58/day) Thanks: 41 Thanked 1,453 Times in 1,077 Posts System Specs	That sounds more like a bug/bad design than some limit that applies to the design of whatever standards a BIOS follows.

Jan 2, 2010, 10:41 AM	#18
Mussels Doctor Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bendigo, Australia (NOT THE USA) Posts: 34,559 (10.96/day) Thanks: 3,700 Thanked 8,693 Times in 6,392 Posts System Specs	UEFI = will be awesome. but not yet. i've heard it can have a mini OS and store drivers in there as well, so you do a "BIOS" (UEFI?) flash to update it, and you'll never need to worry about "F6" floppy drivers for RAID ever again want to repartition a HDD, or resize partitions? no worries, your EUFI has that built in! its got great possibilities, once they get their asses in gear. edit: hell, if someone went totally utterly hardcore, they could make the UEFI the main OS, and run virtual machines out of it for your other OS's. many cool, yet pointless things await! __________________ Edumacational thread about PC Audio My external HDD's.5x samsung 1TB + 2x Seagate 1.5TB = 8 TB external storage 32 Bit OS vs 64 bit OS information How to get hardware accelerated H264 playback (DXVA) Netbook Owners United!

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Jan 2, 2010, 12:58 PM	#21
Jizzler Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Geneva, FL, USA Posts: 3,010 (1.42/day) Thanks: 567 Thanked 606 Times in 487 Posts System Specs	yawn When manufacturers actually get around to doing something about it, let me know. Otherwise it's the same discussion every couple years when someone brings up EFI

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Jan 2, 2010, 02:50 PM	#23
mikek75 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Chippenham, Wilts, United Kingdom Posts: 1,171 (0.48/day) Thanks: 81 Thanked 121 Times in 115 Posts System Specs	MSI released a UEFI (or was it EFI) bios for my P45 Platinum. I gave it a go but it was crap so I went back to the traditional one, LOL __________________ Untutored carnage is useless in the face of an educated bullet The penalty for masturbation in Indonesia is decapitation

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Jan 2, 2010, 04:02 PM	#25
DirectorC Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florizy Posts: 1,597 (1.23/day) Thanks: 90 Thanked 269 Times in 248 Posts System Specs	I'm still not 100% sure I grasp the concept of EFI. I have been playing with PCs for 16 years, taught myself BASIC and HTML in middle school, taught myself C/C++ in high school, played with the Linux kernel source dode at 16 and built my own custom Linux install, recently got my A+, and have no idea what this EFI exactly is. It's like the EFI does nothing but read data stored by the operating system to get all its configuration? But then the computer needs to have an operating system installed or an OS disk somewhere with basic BIOS-like functions so it can boot? Trying to wrap my head around this.

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