Tide of the GPU war turns OR does it

[bobzilla2009]

Originally Posted by qubit

28nm should give Fermi an even bigger boost then. However nvidia certainly have their work cut out for them... give it a couple of years and the situation will be reversed again, just like with the 2900 v 8800 GTX.

Always assuming nvidia actually learn the process and makes a design that helps alleviate issues. Plus rumour has it that AMD are building a chip with the same die size as fermi (although it's very unlikely to be anywhere near as hot) for the NI cards. So it could be that the h6 series is ridiculously powerful, probably 2-3x faster than a 5870 judging by how AMD manage to get 2x performance on slightly bigger dies.

Of course that is all rumour, but it's food for thought. Nvidia have no development headroom in terms of size, heat and power. AMD have absolutely loads if they ever want a killer chip.

[Fourstaff]

I no longer care about 5xxx vs Fermi, its totally mismatched. Fermi is a brand new architecture, so birth pangs must be felt. 5xxx is the ultimate form of R600, therefore it is the sleekest and most efficient in the family. Its like comparing a baby to a grandfather.

[Mussels]

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

I no longer care about 5xxx vs Fermi, its totally mismatched. Fermi is a brand new architecture, so birth pangs must be felt. 5xxx is the ultimate form of R600, therefore it is the sleekest and most efficient in the family. Its like comparing a baby to a grandfather.

the only logical method to compare cards, is price.

Get card A, get card B at the same price range (say, $300) - compare features and performance for your needs, go from there.


For many, fermi fails here. who gives a damn if its a 'new' generation, or its 'not fair' - as a consumer, all that matters is value for money.

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by rjc862003

a bit off topic but something occurred to me after reading the fermi release thread
nVida had a chance to firmly reassert there dominance in the gpu market over ati but instead they blow it with a rushed product with a shotty build quality that's only "slightly" faster then ATI comparable product and yet uses x2 the power and puts out x3 the heat wtf is up with that
now if ATi can get on the ball with there drivers nVdia will be feeling some serious HURT
thoughts anyone ??

The only thing that makes sense to me is that nVidia totally mis-judged RV870, and instead went with past offerings to design Fermi, and by the time RV870 was released and everyone realized how amazing it was, nVidia had already gone too far to scrap Fermi and start over.

It is only because of RV870 being so good that Fermi looks bad, if it wasn't for that, it would actually probably be praised as a good GPU right now.

[Fourstaff]

Originally Posted by Mussels

all that matters is value for money.

QFT

[KingPing]

I think the problem with Nvidia is that since the 8800 GTS/GTX/Ultra/GT they didnt release anything as good, since the 8800 was a monster compared to the previous generation (i went from a 7600GT to a 8800GTS and this was my reaction ). The 200 series was initially overpriced (GTX 280 was like $699 until the ATI 4870/50 appeared) and a pair of 8800gt easily matched it, and now they release this Fermi thingy, and its the same again, only that 6 months late.

So in the end, there is a lot of tech in Fermi but there is hardly any practical use for it, and buying it for when real directx 11 games come out , yeah thats always worked, thats not going to happen until the next gen consoles, and those will probably use directx 12, and Fermi will be as obsolete as my Voodoo 2.

I will wait for the GTX 500s or the ATI 6000s, or buy a cheap 5000s card in the near future

[Mussels]

Kingpin: there is a slew of DX11 titles already out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ctX_11_support

6 games out already with DX11 - most of them big names, and a few unreleased ones in the pipeline (and that page is clearly outdated, it lists dirt2 as unreleased)

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by Mussels

Kingpin: there is a slew of DX11 titles already out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ctX_11_support

6 games out already with DX11 - most of them big names, and a few unreleased ones in the pipeline (and that page is clearly outdated, it lists dirt2 as unreleased)

I wouldn't call 6 titles a slew...

And of the 6 I've played 3, and of those 3 only 1 actually shows a visual difference between DX10 and DX11. I tend to think the others just added one or two features that are petty much unnoticeable just so they can claim DX11 support.

[bobzilla2009]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

I wouldn't call 6 titles a slew...

And of the 6 I've played 3, and of those 3 only 1 actually shows a visual difference between DX10 and DX11. I tend to think the others just added one or two features that are petty much unnoticeable just so they can claim DX11 support.

aye, but the adoption is actually better than dx9 was back in the day still, we can't expect major differences for 2 years anyway, since development of games is a long process. So games built with dx11 in mind from the beginning will take some time. The fact is that devs are actually playing with dx11, they may not do much with it at the moment, but they fact they are looking at dx11 is promising.

[OneMoar]

Originally Posted by shevanel

We have choices, choose what's best for you. Simple as that.

Jalapenos or vanilla ice cream.

22mpg or 45mpg.

Red or yellow.

Exspensive or affordable.

Loud or quieter.

110mph or 103mph

*buys the 103 mph one and bolts a turbo to it*
now it goes 115Mph and still uses less gas then the 110 one

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by bobzilla2009

aye, but the adoption is actually better than dx9 was back in the day still, we can't expect major differences for 2 years anyway, since development of games is a long process. So games built with dx11 in mind from the beginning will take some time. The fact is that devs are actually playing with dx11, they may not do much with it at the moment, but they fact they are looking at dx11 is promising.

Indeed, it is about the same as DX10's adoption. Most of the games will just tack on a few extra features that will generally go unnoticed during gameplay, but a few big name games will go all out with the new tech, and likely be labelled as unoptimized because they require decent hardware to run maxed out...

[jasper1605]

Originally Posted by LAN_deRf_HA

but it only get's hot enough to fry on the backside... so unless there's a non electrically conductive metal that conducts heat well you're out of luck.

Edit* Could you put cooking oil directly on the pcb?

Just use the heatpipes for your heating elements. That'll get your pan warmed up

[bobzilla2009]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

Indeed, it is about the same as DX10's adoption. Most of the games will just tack on a few extra features that will generally go unnoticed during gameplay, but a few big name games will go all out with the new tech, and likely be labelled as unoptimized because they require decent hardware to run maxed out...

pretty much look at crysis, people moan that it takes a monster to run, but it is still the best looking game in terms of post processing effects! The alien level is absolutely stunning beyond belief in it's full very high glory.

[KingPing]

Originally Posted by Mussels

Kingpin: there is a slew of DX11 titles already out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ctX_11_support

6 games out already with DX11 - most of them big names, and a few unreleased ones in the pipeline (and that page is clearly outdated, it lists dirt2 as unreleased)

I know, but all of them are ported from directX 9 consoles, and have directx 11 features, none is directx 11 native. In Dirt 2 you have to pause the game to see those features, and to be honest its pretty much the same as directx 9. Same in AVP, Stalker COP, etc.. Im not saying those games sucks, or that directx 11 sucks, im saying that i think that because consoles and directx 9,10,10.1 hardware installed base, i dont see a native directX 11 game coming anytime soon, and when they came Fermi and ATI 5000s wont be up to the task.

So the tech Fermi has and Nvidia saying its better in TS and its better future gaming, are not valid selling points in my opinion, in MY OPINION its better to stick with a cheaper similar performing product (ATI 5870) or wait for next gen Nvidia and ATI cards. Also im not saying that anyone who buys a GTX 480 is a moron, no way!, i would be runing right now if i had the money, but i would also buy a 5970, and a 5870, and so many things....damm

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by bobzilla2009

pretty much look at crysis, people moan that it takes a monster to run, but it is still the best looking game in terms of post processing effects! The alien level is absolutely stunning beyond belief in it's full very high glory.

People don't moan because few systems today can run it @ 1920x1080 4xAA, maxed options...

People moan about it because Cevat Yerli stood there in front of the camera, showed it working perfectly on dual X1950XTX cards, on 40-inch screens.

The final product looks WORSE than those demos, and requires MORE grunt than 6x X1950XTX can give.

THAT is the source of the "unoptimized" complaints. Otherwise, we'd just think it was system-killer graphics, the performance requirement could be easily explained. Metro 2033 did it...

Any wya, shortly after, nV was Cevat's main sponsor. and then Crossfire performance TANKED...what happened to the X1950XTX demo performance?

[bobzilla2009]

Originally Posted by cadaveca

People don't moan because few systems today can run it @ 1920x1080 4xAA, maxed options...

People moan about it because Cevat Yerli stood there in front of the camera, showed it working perfectly on dual X1950XTX cards, on 40-inch screens.

The final product looks WORSE than those demos, and requires MORE grunt than 6x X1950XTX can give.

THAT is the source of the "unoptimized" complaints. Otherwise, we'd just think it was system-killer graphics, the performance requirement could be easily explained. Metro 2033 did it...

Any wya, shortly after, nV was Cevat's main sponsor. and then Crossfire performance TANKED...what happened to the X1950XTX demo performance?

ah right i didn't know about that tech demo. Also, TWIMTBP played program only means they would have optimised nvidia cards! they never would have borked crossfire performance would they!

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by bobzilla2009

ah right i didn't know about that tech demo. Also, TWIMTBP played program only means they would have optimised nvidia cards! they never would have borked crossfire performance would they!

You know Crossfire performance is mostly dependent on ATi's own driver profiles for each game, and has little to do with the actual games themselves...

Hell, the game needs a Crossfire profile before they even show any performance gains from crossfire.

[bobzilla2009]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

You know Crossfire performance is mostly dependent on ATi's own driver profiles for each game, and has little to do with the actual games themselves...

Hell, the game needs a Crossfire profile before they even show any performance gains from crossfire.

indeed but if the demo had already shown better crossfire performance before the TWIMTBP program was added than after, it's a bit weird. Still, it's ages ago now, and crossfire has come along a long way since. It's not like the 'Nvidia exclusive MSAA' ^^ i did lol when batman told me only nvidia cards could do MSAA it wasn't so much that only nvidia had AA, since the UE3 is a bit awkward with AA at times anyway, it was just the way it said it. It made it sound like MSAA was some kind of new tech!

Although tbh aliasing wasn't an issue in arkham anyway surprising. There's hardly any difference going from nothing to 4xSSAA, and i'm generally very picky about jaggies!

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

You know Crossfire performance is mostly dependent on ATi's own driver profiles for each game, and has little to do with the actual games themselves...

Hell, the game needs a Crossfire profile before they even show any performance gains from crossfire.

Yeah, but this is the internet, where everyone over-reacts. I think Cevat even mentioned that a 6800-series would be good to play the game on, and a 2900XT would be good to max the settings out. When that didn't work out, and then Crossfire sucked, but SLi worked fine, alot of people were disappointed.


In the end, I played it maxed out on dual 2900XT's, 1280x1024, Dell 3007WFP, and no AA.




I find this interesting, as that was when the tide really turned in the gpu market the last time... It's almost like nV hopped on the Crysis bandwagon, and designed Tri-SLi 8800GTX just for that game...

[DRDNA]

Fermi is an infant in development and yes its consumer(not watts) will be e bit disappointed, oh well thats the way its going this time around.

The 6000's series will be an infant too, but I doubt ATI will be willing to let it out if it doesn't keep the competitive lead....


normally the opposing team creeps up slowly then gives the badabing badaboom pass into the lead...


I do believe the Fermi will get better .....

I do believe the 6000's will get better....

I do believe the the upcoming 12 core CPU's will get better....

I am really starting to wonder tho if my friggin pay check will get better!

[OneMoar]

Originally Posted by DRDNA

Fermi is an infant in development and yes its consumer(not watts) will be e bit disappointed, oh well thats the way its going this time around.

The 6000's series will be an infant too, but I doubt ATI will be willing to let it out if it doesn't keep the competitive lead....


normally the opposing team creeps up slowly then gives the badabing badaboom pass into the lead...


I do believe the Fermi will get better .....

I do believe the 6000's will get better....

I do believe the the upcoming 12 core CPU's will get better....

I am really starting to wonder tho if my friggin pay check will get better!

Nvidas major fk up was milking the g92 chip for so long instead of researching new architecture now they gotta play catch up
I am also wondering when my pay check will catch up to my spending

[ste2425]

ati? nvidia? meh ill just get which ever is the cheapest and best performer when it comes to money, but from what I've read id say nvidia shot em selves right in the foot.

[Mussels]

Originally Posted by rjc862003

Nvidas major fk up was milking the g92 chip for so long instead of researching new architecture now they gotta play catch up
I am also wondering when my pay check will catch up to my spending

they were researching a new chip, they just hit a wall and had to delay while they worked on that wall.

[DaedalusHelios]

Have you guys noticed the increased cost at places like Newegg for ATi 5 series. My 5870's are worth more now than when I bought them. ATi is price raping like Nvidia did with the 8800 ultra, yet it had more superiority at the time...

The pricing should be going down and not up. That is if ATi actually cared about its customers.

[Mussels]

5K cards are the same price here in Au.


i'd say its not ATI, but those retailers - when the competing card isnt coming out for a while/has no stock, why not rake in the profit in the meantime?