From PCWorld: Is Open Source Up to Par? Just Ask the DoD

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

Some would care. For example because everyone can read PDF files on his or her pc, without the need for an office suite (MS Office viewer is not available for every platform).

blah blah blah

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

For companies it can be a cost saver, and I have heard once from someone doing PDF exports at his job, that exporting multi-tab spreadsheets into PDF still goes the most flawlessly with OpenOffice, not with the Adobe software. Guess what the company he works for did? Exactly, ditch the Adobe license for most people, except the very few employees that might still need it.

So people should work for free as in beer ? I don't care if software is free. I don't care if its open source. I just want it to work. As for cost, well beer isn;t free either. I do like having the document formats being open source however. Thats one thing that should be mandatory. Its my data.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

Actually a lot of major Linux distros ditched OpenOffice and install LibreOffice by default:

http://techie-buzz.com/foss/mandriva...breoffice.html
http://lawyerist.com/openoffice-org-libreoffice/

OpenOffice Libreoffice, same god damned thing isn't it ? except libreoffice is a fork of openoffice, though I forget when specifically this occured. You can't give me a copy of openoffice and libre office won't do my books.

[Fourstaff]

I am ashamed to admit that after getting an Office students pack I have been almost exclusively using Microsoft Windows rather than LibreOffice. That said though, I think its a personal preference thing, and I would be just as comfortable using LibreOffice if I didn't buy the Office.

I understand both sides of the argument, because I am actually using Gimp over Adobe Photoshop (mainly because I can't afford the £150+ license fee, and the 7/14/whatever day trial was not long enough for me to acclimatise). That and Chrome over IE9, and trying to use Mozilla Thunderbird to play nice (it doesn't, I probably need to spend more time to actually attempt it properly).

I like PDF, I use LaTeX for it.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

I am ashamed to admit that after getting an Office students pack I have been almost exclusively using Microsoft Windows rather than LibreOffice. That said though, I think its a personal preference thing, and I would be just as comfortable using LibreOffice if I didn't buy the Office.

I understand both sides of the argument, because I am actually using Gimp over Adobe Photoshop (mainly because I can't afford the £150+ license fee, and the 7/14/whatever day trial was not long enough for me to acclimatise). That and Chrome over IE9, and trying to use Mozilla Thunderbird to play nice (it doesn't, I probably need to spend more time to actually attempt it properly).

I like PDF, I use LaTeX for it.

Actually pegasus mails works nice and is free. One of the better pieces of freeware out there.Gimp has to many problems and to difficult a workflow for most professionals and they are acting like fixing the multwindow view is some sort of monumental task, that tells me the application is full of spaghetti code workarounds. Rediculous.

[Fourstaff]

Originally Posted by Thatguy

Actually pegasus mails works nice and is free. One of the better pieces of freeware out there.Gimp has to many problems and to difficult a workflow for most professionals and they are acting like fixing the multwindow view is some sort of monumental task, that tells me the application is full of spaghetti code workarounds. Rediculous.

Gimp might have its problems, but its obviously not enough for me to consider getting a Photoshop for my occasional image manipulation.

[Frick]

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

Gimp might have its problems, but its obviously not enough for me to consider getting a Photoshop for my occasional image manipulation.

Which is the core of the entire discussion imo, at least at a consumer level.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

Gimp might have its problems, but its obviously not enough for me to consider getting a Photoshop for my occasional image manipulation.

would be nice if you could get wonderbrush from the beos/zeta for windows and linux. But sadly the author is not porting that program to anything but the haiku os which is a beos clone. I find it VERY easy to use, it has real 32b color depth etc. Not as many features as gimp but for the bulk of folks just retouching a photo etc or doing some art work, its very very good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUqPyGvrLwY

[Chevalr1c]

Originally Posted by Thatguy

blah blah blah

If you can't give mature comments to something, than better don't comment it.

Originally Posted by Thatguy

So people should work for free as in beer ? I don't care if software is free. I don't care if its open source. I just want it to work. As for cost, well beer isn;t free either.

I never said that someone must work unpaid. You're bending my words dude. I was mentioning cost savings on software, not on people.
And in fact companies often pay for open source software, only less because they pay a certain amount ("flat rate") instead of paying per install.

Originally Posted by Thatguy

OpenOffice Libreoffice, same god damned thing isn't it ? except libreoffice is a fork of openoffice, though I forget when specifically this occured.

The fork occured soon after Oracle purchased Sun. Oracle was rumoured to be planning to quit the OpenOffice project (or whatever), hence the fork. And if you had read what I've linked to, you would have known how things have ended up to.

Originally Posted by Thatguy

You can't give me a copy of openoffice and libre office won't do my books.

If it doesn't meet your requirements, this doesn't mean it sucks generally. It only implies it's not suitable for your specific use.

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

I am ashamed to admit that after getting an Office students pack I have been almost exclusively using Microsoft Windows rather than LibreOffice. That said though, I think its a personal preference thing, and I would be just as comfortable using LibreOffice if I didn't buy the Office.

In my case it depends, which of the two I use. If I need to exchange documents with Office 2007 users, while those docs still need to be edited then I choose Office 2010, or if read-only files are fine I make the docs in LibreOffice and export them to PDF. Except when needing to use pictures (which is seldomly the case), in that case I use MS Office 2010 too, no matter with who I need to exchange.
If I will exchange with fellow LibreOffice users or if it is for private use, I prefer to use LibreOffice.

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

I understand both sides of the argument, because I am actually using Gimp over Adobe Photoshop (mainly because I can't afford the £150+ license fee, and the 7/14/whatever day trial was not long enough for me to acclimatise). That and Chrome over IE9, and trying to use Mozilla Thunderbird to play nice (it doesn't, I probably need to spend more time to actually attempt it properly).

Let's not forget that Portage/APT make it quite easy on Linux installs to add plugins to GIMP; so I guess that even if it is not "the same" as PS it comes very close. Those plugins should be available for the Windows/Mac versions of GIMP, but I guess you need to DL them separately from the www.
In case of Mozilla TB, let me know what you are struggling with, and I may be able to help you out. It's in minor things, often. E.g. when the sending/receiving e-mails has its flaws, a manual set-up me solve the problem (the automagic stuff seems to select wrong ports and such, in certain cases).

Originally Posted by Thatguy

Gimp has to many problems and to difficult a workflow for most professionals and they are acting like fixing the multwindow view is some sort of monumental task, that tells me the application is full of spaghetti code workarounds.

"Fixing" is not the right word here, dude. The multiwindow thing has been there with a purpose. That GUI design allows the user to spread the program across several virtual desktops and/or monitors.
Because there are people who don't like it, the developers are adding a all-in-one interface to the program without ditching the other (because some would still prefer the old design).
The fact that they wish to offer 2 GUIs at once (offering choice), combined with all the tools etc. makes it hard for them. And possibly the GIMP core development team is rather small, increasing dev time even more.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

If you can't give mature comments to something, than better don't comment it.

dude, you aren't owed a ounce a civility, and genrally given the attitude of linux evngalists, you've yet to earn coutersy from me on the subject manner.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

I never said that someone must work unpaid. You're bending my words dude. I was mentioning cost savings on software, not on people.
And in fact companies often pay for open source software, only less because they pay a certain amount ("flat rate") instead of paying per install.

First off Free software can't ever pay a developer unless it finds a corporate sponsor or some form of ad revenue to fund itself, outside of donations. So yes the paid developer scenario is really problematic, I figured the basic tennant of the statement was fiarly self evident. Obviously not.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

The fork occured soon after Oracle purchased Sun. Oracle was rumoured to be planning to quit the OpenOffice project (or whatever), hence the fork. And if you had read what I've linked to, you would have known how things have ended up to.

I really don'tcare, at this point I will use a paid solution. My time is worth more then screwing around with a poorly written application.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

If it doesn't meet your requirements, this doesn't mean it sucks generally. It only implies it's not suitable for your specific use.

considering I don't have much demanding use for a office suite, yeah it sucks. The amount of people using MSoffice vrs Libreoffice is pretty much a testament to this fact. You might not like facts, but they exist regardless of your attempt to spin the conversation.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

In my case it depends, which of the two I use. If I need to exchange documents with Office 2007 users, while those docs still need to be edited then I choose Office 2010, or if read-only files are fine I make the docs in LibreOffice and export them to PDF. Except when needing to use pictures (which is seldomly the case), in that case I use MS Office 2010 too, no matter with who I need to exchange.
If I will exchange with fellow LibreOffice users or if it is for private use, I prefer to use LibreOffice.

Ever use Gobe 3.0???. Might wanna try it. Shame its dead though. Great application that made document editing a snap. Want a picture in between two paragraphs, its super easy. Wanna combine spreadsheets,text,pictures,art and do all of it in one program including drawing, yep no problem.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

Let's not forget that Portage/APT make it quite easy on Linux installs to add plugins to GIMP; so I guess that even if it is not "the same" as PS it comes very close. Those plugins should be available for the Windows/Mac versions of GIMP, but I guess you need to DL them separately from the www.

I just can't stand the ui, its like having a labotomy and everything is so difficult to find. The workflow is horrific.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

In case of Mozilla TB, let me know what you are struggling with, and I may be able to help you out. It's in minor things, often. E.g. when the sending/receiving e-mails has its flaws, a manual set-up me solve the problem (the automagic stuff seems to select wrong ports and such, in certain cases).

I am totally fine with pegasus mail, it works great for my needs.

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

"Fixing" is not the right word here, dude. The multiwindow thing has been there with a purpose. That GUI design allows the user to spread the program across several virtual desktops and/or monitors.
Because there are people who don't like it, the developers are adding a all-in-one interface to the program without ditching the other (because some would still prefer the old design).
The fact that they wish to offer 2 GUIs at once (offering choice), combined with all the tools etc. makes it hard for them. And possibly the GIMP core development team is rather small, increasing dev time even more.

the GUI decision was a bad thing and likely done to make the program more modular, Who the fuck uses x11 to work on a art project arcoss multiple computers ? What a stupid useage scenario. Its just poorly design, counter intuative, and clumsy. It works poorly on every type of OS I have tried it on. Its just a total Pain in the ass to use and its got color problems as well. After all this time the fact that GIMP is in the shape its in and 2 guys can write a program like wonderbrush in what appears to be the span of about 1 year and its easily more useably functional and has alot of capability, tells me the guys at gimp are just not capable of developing good software.

the best thing to do with gimp now, is just rewrite it completely and toss the old design in the can. Likely would be better as a QT app anyways. Far more portable.

[streetfighter 2]

Originally Posted by Thatguy

The amount of people using MSoffice vrs Libreoffice is pretty much a testament to this fact. You might not like facts, but they exist regardless of your attempt to spin the conversation.

Argumentum ad populum

Originally Posted by Easy Rhino

logical fallacies are a hell of a drug.

I'm fond of both Thatguy and Chevalr1c so I don't want them to think I'm being an arse. I may have overstepped my bounds a bit but I felt as if Thatguy's jab at Chevalr1c was unjustified. Furthermore being a person infatuated with "facts", it makes me sad whenever I see the word used to describe something that is clearly arbitrary.

Oh and for the record:
MS Office sucks.
LibreOffice sucks.
OpenOffice sucks.
Being in an actual office sucks.
Open source rules.

That is all.

[Easy Rhino]

Originally Posted by streetfighter 2

Argumentum ad populum

logical fallacies are a hell of a drug.

[Chevalr1c]

Originally Posted by Thatguy

dude, you aren't owed a ounce a civility, and genrally given the attitude of linux evngalists, you've yet to earn coutersy from me on the subject manner.

Originally Posted by Thatguy

First off Free software can't ever pay a developer unless it finds a corporate sponsor or some form of ad revenue to fund itself, outside of donations. So yes the paid developer scenario is really problematic, I figured the basic tennant of the statement was fiarly self evident. Obviously not.

The term "Free software" does not refer to the price. So what you say about the financial stuff is not always the case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization
Yes, some projects primarily live of things like sponsorship and this can be problematic but others are doing well, while getting paid by their clients (in form of yearly contracts for a wholesale solution of software and support, AFAIK). Think of the revenue Red Hat is making.... http://www.redhat.com/about/news/pra...10/Q4FY10.html

Originally Posted by Thatguy

Ever use Gobe 3.0???. Might wanna try it. Shame its dead though. Great application that made document editing a snap. Want a picture in between two paragraphs, its super easy. Wanna combine spreadsheets,text,pictures,art and do all of it in one program including drawing, yep no problem.

My only reason for not using LibreOffice for documents that need to contain images, is that LibreOffice screws the images quality wise. There are no further problems with it for me, except the latter and the interoperability with e.g. MS Office.

Originally Posted by Thatguy

I am totally fine with pegasus mail, it works great for my needs.

As you could have seen, I did reply to something Fourstaff said. It seemed he had some issues with TB he would like to overcome, so I offered my help to him. I was not talking to you at that moment.

Originally Posted by Thatguy

the GUI decision was a bad thing and likely done to make the program more modular, Who the fuck uses x11 to work on a art project arcoss multiple computers ? What a stupid useage scenario. Its just poorly design, counter intuative, and clumsy. It works poorly on every type of OS I have tried it on. Its just a total Pain in the ass to use and its got color problems as well. After all this time the fact that GIMP is in the shape its in and 2 guys can write a program like wonderbrush in what appears to be the span of about 1 year and its easily more useably functional and has alot of capability, tells me the guys at gimp are just not capable of developing good software.
the best thing to do with gimp now, is just rewrite it completely and toss the old design in the can. Likely would be better as a QT app anyways. Far more portable.

Using QT would indeed be a good idea, instead of the GTK toolkit they use now.
But how come "across multiple computers"? As you probably know, both multimonitor and the multiple virtual desktop setups are usage scenarios with only one ("1") computer.
And in fact I like the way GIMP works, I am used to it now and would probably find PS a pain in the ass because it's design is different to what I am used to.



Man, this thread seems to go on and on forever, basically in the same silly way as the "Fahrenheit or Celsius" topic.
And we are of course far off topic now, because the OP discussed a decision of the US DoD, not the quality of applications.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Chevalr1c

Man, this thread seems to go on and on forever, basically in the same silly way as the "Fahrenheit or Celsius" topic.
And we are of course far off topic now, because the OP discussed a decision of the US DoD, not the quality of applications.

I have almost ZERO intention of fixing bugs in software and so do most users, Freedom doesn't mean shit. I want FREEDOM and RESPECT of my data. It is afterall MY data.

I don't give a shit how you want to measure tempature, I can easily off the top of my head convert between F or C. you know what the differences is between 104.4c and 220F. Nothing. Its still fthe same tempature. Get it ?

Typically open source software is crap. some isn't it. I'd like to see a much more diverse less windows and linux specific OS market. Maybe 10-20 os's all have small fractional amounts of market share, it'd be good for everybody.

But to claim GIMP is a good program ? BTW I can multimonitor just fine in PS. But multimonitor photo editing is at best a edge useage case. the GUI is aweful.

YES gimp should become a QT program, it'll give it more portability.

[Easy Rhino]

blah blah shit blah.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Easy Rhino

blah blah shit blah.

Easy Rhino, I get it. Weak republican in name only.

[DannibusX]

Originally Posted by Thatguy

Easy Rhino, I get it. Weak republican in name only.

Don't be that guy.

[Easy Rhino]

he's just mad because nobody took him serious on the internet.