Apple Emerges Victorious Against Psystar, But Have They Really Triumphed? (UPDATED)

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by wickerman

Why would apple be fine with this? They validate all the hardware that goes into their boxes, work with companies to offer decent drivers and support for various features and so forth.

Saying apple should let other companies build cheap little clones and sell them is akin to saying Ford should just start putting Ferrari badges on the Focus cause really, they are the same hardware..just cheaper version. Never mind the effort that goes into designing, building, marketing, and selling a Ferrari, just let Ford call the Focus a Ferrari and profit from someone else's success in a niche market. Hel why stop there, Kia can make an even cheaper Ferrari! We can all have One! Never mind that it just wouldn't be the same, or as good.

Apple sells premium hardware, full stop. They don't want to offer anything under $1,000 and that's their business model. Maybe things will change later, but for now apple sells what they sell. And premium doesn't always mean absolute peak performance, the software, design, aesthetics, and so forth are all part of the equation.

Have you ever used a Mac? Because I had to deal with that crap during my college. The thing you call a Ferrari (bad choice, Macs are slow and expensive, not fast and expensive like a Ferrari) I watched on a daily basis lock up and perform like crap. When asking the teach how to fix it locking up, normally the response is "reboot it", and these were brand new iMacs.

Apple doesn't sell premium hardware, they sell crap in an attractive box. Don't kid yourself, they use the same hardware PC's do, PowerPC has been gone a long time, because it was slow as hell.

Apple doesn't sell blazing fast rigs, most of the hardware they use is mediocre at best. Once again, not comparable to a Ferrari. The only reason they don't want companies putting OS X on PCs is because the price savings. Let me compare the "Ferrari" to the "Focus"

"Focus"


"Ferrari"


Notice the "Focus" is actually running a 2500k, and overall has amazing brand name products behind it. Yet it still comes in under $1000, if OS X even retailed for $300, that "Focus" would whoop the Macs ass, be as reliable, and cost a ton less. Do your research, I would take the "Focus" any day of the week. Apple just can't compete on the hardware level for cost, and they don't want to give up charging an arm and a leg quiet yet, theres a lot more fools wallets to gouge before the OS rights up.

[xenocide]

You picked out a 6570 rather than the 6770 that the iMac comes with, and the monitor is their IPS-Panel that Dell also uses, which is infinitely better than that ViewSonic I believe. But there's also the fact that I think the i5 they are pairing it with is a last-gen i5 that eat shit compared to the 2500k...

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by xenocide

You picked out a 6570 rather than the 6770 that the iMac comes with, and the monitor is their IPS-Panel that Dell also uses, which is infinitely better than that ViewSonic I believe. But there's also the fact that I think the i5 they are pairing it with is a last-gen i5 that eat shit compared to the 2500k...

The iMac is notebook garbage, thats a 6770M, not a true 6770, its the samething as a 6570. The Dell maybe better, but you could easily find an IPS and save hundreds. And yes I'm pretty sure Apple is using the old i5, the 2500k would destroy it, on top of that I think it's a mobile processor as well, just like the graphics card. Like I said, Apple isn't using the best hardware either, and everything I put on that list is great brand names, not generic crap. So build quality wouldn't be an issue. Apple just doesn't want to give out the OS rights because they want to gouge as much as they can.

[sy5tem]

lol, anyways macOsX looks nice and work just fine in my dell inspirion mini 10 .. coste me 250$ LOL

[Frick]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

The iMac is notebook garbage, thats a 6770M, not a true 6770, its the samething as a 6570. The Dell maybe better, but you could easily find an IPS and save hundreds. And yes I'm pretty sure Apple is using the old i5, the 2500k would destroy it, on top of that I think it's a mobile processor as well, just like the graphics card. Like I said, Apple isn't using the best hardware either, and everything I put on that list is great brand names, not generic crap. So build quality wouldn't be an issue. Apple just doesn't want to give out the OS rights because they want to gouge as much as they can.

The big problem here is form factor. You system would be better, but it would not be an all in one.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Frick

The big problem here is form factor. You system would be better, but it would not be an all in one.

Agreed, but you could make a small form factor 2500k build without a problem. iMac is marketed as their desktop computer, not as their space saver, it just happens to take up less space. Most people I know running iMacs have plenty of room for a tower, especially since most people use a computer desk that a tower fits under easily. And either way, I would rather save $500 - $600, have something faster, and let it take up a bit more room. After all I live in a house, not a box, a tower doesn't take up that much room.

[wickerman]

First of all Kurgan, yes I have used a mac recently in fact not only did a buy myself a macbook air for class, last mother's day I also bought that 27" imac for my mother. Not to mention the various macbooks I have used from friends or other family members.

Campus systems will always lock up because they wound up being used by hundreds a day, each totally abusing the system. Put your own desktop in a computer lab somewhere and see how long it takes before it starts experiences crashing due to some overlord software, malware, viruses, or even long term use causing wear.

And please, you simply cannot compare your newegg bargain to an imac. First of all they are not the same profile, your newegg bargain has a big tower, not an all in one design. Then that cheap little viewsonic is only 1080p not 2560x1440 - the cheapest that runs such resolution is $806. So replace that viewsonic with the CHEAPEST 2560x1440 panel newegg sells and your "focus" is suddenly $1420.46. If you're gunna try to compare specs, at least get them close. But even then, there is only a $300 difference in price which on the Apple side include the OS (add another $100 for windows 7 home premium), toss in an 802.11n wifi card ($30-$50), and suddenly the price difference with similar hardware drops to only about $50. And that's money you're paying to have an all in one form factor as opposed to a bulky tower. Ok fine maybe you want a tower, but still. A custom machine milled all aluminum case is expensive. If you had used a nice Lian Li case instead of a cheap bundled Rosewill, your build would be more expensive than the Apple imac.

Also note the 27-inch iMac does use a Sandy Bridge chip, not an older clarksdale. It uses a i5-2500 S int he 2.7ghz model. Which is a low TDP model, closest newegg sells is the 2405 S which is a 2.5/3.3 turbo quad core with a 65w TDP instead of a 95w on standard SB chips. Also note it is a Z68 chipset and not a P67.

Sure you can argue the "facts" of the apple build don't matter, but it is pretty clear that when you build your own "imac killer" and use at least similar parts, you don't save any money at all, or very little. Even the all in ones that Anand compared the imac to in his charts that were all about $1200 and had similar specs to the $1700 imac - none of them had 2560x1440 panels, they all ran 1920x1080. The $500 premium you pay for the imac over those, at least grants you a $800-$1200 upgrade in display.

The only odd one out in the current imac range is the 21.5" as obviously at $1199 it is not as good a deal as the offerings from other manufactures. Dell and HP at least offer 23" panels in the same resolution for that money.

oh one last edit lol. That last $50 you save on the DIY 27" imac can be spent on a 720p HD webcam that your newegg build excludes as well. The new imac includes a rather good 1280x720 webcam that is encoded using Intel's Quick Sync technology.

[WhiteLotus]

All in ones aren't better anyway.
What's that Mac? Your screen gets a crack and you have to send it back? No computer for you.

What's that PC? Your screen has a crack, and you've got a cheap shitty spare in the cupboard. It's okay I'll use that until good screen comes back. I still love you PC.

[wickerman]

Originally Posted by WhiteLotus

All in ones aren't better anyway.
What's that Mac? Your screen gets a crack and you have to send it back? No computer for you.

What's that PC? Your screen has a crack, and you've got a cheap shitty spare in the cupboard. It's okay I'll use that until good screen comes back. I still love you PC.

I agree, all in ones are not better for everyone. But if you check the link to the Anandtech review of the new imac, you can see Dell offers the Inspiron 2305 and HP offers the TouchSmart 610xt - both 23" all in one solutions to compete with the imac. It is not a pc vs mac thing, it is an integrated all in one vs a non integrated box.

I'd never own an all in one as my primary system simply because I like upgrading to newer hardware when available. I benefit from having a tower pc just like everyone else here. But if I needed to save space in my office or guest room or where ever, then yea an all in one is great since I can still get a powerful sandy bridge chip and dedicated graphics.

[KieranD]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

I don't understand why Apple wouldn't be fine with this. To allow their OS to reach farther into the PC market, thats just stupid.

The reason is obvious it stops people buying their computers, hackintosh users are not buying Macs.

[theoneandonlymrk]

Originally Posted by wickerman

Apple sells premium hardware, full stop. They don't want to offer anything under $1,000 and that's their business model. Maybe things will change later, but for now apple sells what they sell. And premium doesn't always mean absolute peak performance, the software, design, aesthetics, and so forth are all part of the equation.

so your a fan of apple then, fine the rest of us non execs cant afford one.
and thats deff your opinion as mine is that apples macs etc are plain overpriced, under upgradeable ponceware but then thats my opinion and their os is nowt special either
again imho


oh and they no nothing about premium except premium price.. exactly what has a mac got that you cant buy a better one of on a pc

[wickerman]

Originally Posted by theoneandonlymrk

so your a fan of apple then, fine the rest of us non execs cant afford one.
and thats deff your opinion as mine is that apples macs etc are plain overpriced, under upgradeable ponceware but then thats my opinion and their os is nowt special either
again imho

I respectfully agree that not everyone can afford Apple hardware, I am merely pointing out that just because one cannot afford something doesn't mean it should not exist. I can't afford a 2 million dollar Veyron at the moment, but somebody can.

But as I mentioned to Kurgan, the 27" imac is hardly overpriced as any similar system with a 2560x1440 display costs about the same. What apple over charges for standard hardware they make up for with that beautiful display. The Dell U2711 - the panel most of us choose in the end, retails for about $1000 (newegg wants $990, dell wants $1,099). And from that stand point, I doubt you could build something as powerful and feature rich with the remaining $700 without sacrifices.

I'm glad you've been honest though! Most people simply try to hate on Apple without admitting they just don't like them. They try to justify it by saying things that are easy to disprove. So far you're the only one to point out the non upgradability which is the biggest flaw of any Apple system! All you get on even the big Apple towers is some hard drives or specific mac edition gpus from ATI or Nvidia.

Thanks for being honest!

And about the only thing you get with a mac that you can't get with a standard PC is the enclosure, the OS, and the use of low power parts as opposed to standard issue TDPs. I stand by the belief that nobody could build a true mac competitor without charging mac prices, even if all it comes down to is a visual difference in that the apple systems are all aluminum construction vs something that uses mostly plastics. And you really just can't ignore the OS, even if you don't like it you can't say its worthless. If microsoft has a right to charge you money for windows, then apple has a right to charge you for OSX when they include it with the systems they build.

[KieranD]

I think the thread is going off topic try not to make it a flame war.

As long as Apple want to make computers they will try to stop these clones, its difficult as anyone really can make a hackintosh. If Apple wanted to penetrate the OS market they would allow it to be used on more machines but that makes it a transition from a traditionally computer company to a software one.

Like i said before Microsoft is mainly a software company or rather traditionally, Apple is a computer company and it tries to sell you a whole machine so if selling Macs is their business why would they want people making clones?

Obviously ignoring the fact they also make other products now.

[theoneandonlymrk]

i am an apple hater but not for nowt i feel their logic regarding memory slots on iphones to be offensive , charging hundreds for more memory that in fact could cost 20 quid or insisting on their own charger and or any other part for that matter i think i should be allowed to do what i want with all i own.

i dont like microsoft that much either but at least theyve the balls and surety to stand by their os's 100% instead of wrapping it in ally and overpriced tat to sell it

though as i posted earlier sort of im glad their here because competition rules , especially for us customers

sorry by the way not tryin to annoy just expressing an opinion, i think they could have had it both ways with them selling their usual slim ally stuff plus os's for boxes hence spreading the apple joy, fools then the peeps using hacked boxes would grow to love osx and want a sexy proper mac.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by wickerman

Campus systems will always lock up because they wound up being used by hundreds a day, each totally abusing the system. Put your own desktop in a computer lab somewhere and see how long it takes before it starts experiences crashing due to some overlord software, malware, viruses, or even long term use causing wear.

Brand new iMac 27's locked up, no one was allowed to install software, and OS X is pretty hard for malware and viruses to come along for, don't think I ever seen one of them go down for that. I also leave my comp on 24/7, and I stress it a lot harder than the iMacs only running Photoshop.

Originally Posted by wickerman

And please, you simply cannot compare your newegg bargain to an imac. First of all they are not the same profile, your newegg bargain has a big tower, not an all in one design. Then that cheap little viewsonic is only 1080p not 2560x1440 - the cheapest that runs such resolution is $806. So replace that viewsonic with the CHEAPEST 2560x1440 panel newegg sells and your "focus" is suddenly $1420.46. If you're gunna try to compare specs, at least get them close. But even then, there is only a $300 difference in price which on the Apple side include the OS (add another $100 for windows 7 home premium), toss in an 802.11n wifi card ($30-$50), and suddenly the price difference with similar hardware drops to only about $50. And that's money you're paying to have an all in one form factor as opposed to a bulky tower. Ok fine maybe you want a tower, but still. A custom machine milled all aluminum case is expensive. If you had used a nice Lian Li case instead of a cheap bundled Rosewill, your build would be more expensive than the Apple imac.

There is no need to go beyond 1080p, I used iMacs for graphic design (what they really push them for). Sorry I just wouldn't waste my money on one. And the fact that if a part breaks, you can easily replace it rather than sending it in. And you don't need no Lian Li, theres plenty of great cases around $100. When your monitor is your case, yeah you will want it to be top notch.

Originally Posted by wickerman

Sure you can argue the "facts" of the apple build don't matter, but it is pretty clear that when you build your own "imac killer" and use at least similar parts, you don't save any money at all, or very little. Even the all in ones that Anand compared the imac to in his charts that were all about $1200 and had similar specs to the $1700 imac - none of them had 2560x1440 panels, they all ran 1920x1080. The $500 premium you pay for the imac over those, at least grants you a $800-$1200 upgrade in display.

When you build a computer, you build within reason. iMacs have a horrible videocard, slow RAM, and a great monitor. No real use for the monitor, I would rather have a better videocard and faster RAM, with a 1080 monitor, better trade off. Also if you were to compare laptops, what would be your answer there? Many PC laptops with the same specs at a much lower price.

Originally Posted by wickerman

oh one last edit lol. That last $50 you save on the DIY 27" imac can be spent on a 720p HD webcam that your newegg build excludes as well. The new imac includes a rather good 1280x720 webcam that is encoded using Intel's Quick Sync technology.

Like I said above, rather have a more well rounded computer than the iMac either way. And come out cheaper, while using some great parts, having the ability to replace parts, and having a better performing machine.

[wickerman]

1) Well I can't explain why it locked up then, perhaps it was a hardware issue or a software issue, these are brand new systems so it's not uncommon for a brand new item to have one issue or another. But again, I doubt it locked up "because its a mac" any more than other systems lock up "because its a pc".

2) There is plenty of reason to go beyond 1080p, or into multi monitor work spaces. Just because you don't like to do so doesn't make your newegg build a valid comparison. If you want to argue the price you have to use similar components. That was my point, sorry if it didn't come across as such.

And imacs have just as many issues with replacing parts as any all in one system. If a part breaks in your all in one HP, Dell, or any laptop then you're in the same boat as the imac. You can't just replace the video card in a laptop when it is integrated. But then again these all in ones usually have an MXM style video card which can be replaced.

The case may not matter to you, but I for one am willing to pay more money to have a nice looking case. Be it a lian li for my desktop systems, or a nicely crafted mac.

3) The imacs have no worse video cards than the typical high end laptop. They do not use slow ram, they use the same DDR3 1333 you typically see in most any laptop today. That is slower the industry average DDR3 1600 desktops use (or the faster DDR3 1866/2000/higher we can get). Component trade offs are expected in laptops and highly integrated all in one systems, or the tightly compact systems like the mac mini (or even dell's zino).

My answer for macbooks vs standard laptops would be the same. Granted the price premium there may be higher, but you are still getting some very impressive build qualities and a very robust unibody aluminum case. If apple used the cheap plastics everyone else used, then you would probably see the same price being asked. But these cases are damn near works of art and for that I am willing to pay extra. They have qualities many of us are willing to pay extra for. The magsafe power connection for instance I absolutely love. No more worries about if people tripping over my wire would bend the internal connection because the cord is held in magnetically and just pops out if someone trips. The low profile keys, the illuminated keyboards the slim profile, the use of intel's latest and greatest IO technology (thunderbolt) - all of these are little things that add up to a total package that many of us are willing to pay extra for. And of course mac OS itself. Don't call it worthless just because you don't like it.

If you build an imac or a macbook it will cost the same as an imac or a macbook. Look at the new UltraBooks intel is pushing, they are very similar to the macbook air and as such cost almost the same. The cheapest I've seen yet being the Acer 3951 which should be around $900 at its base model, but even there you have to sacrifice the 128gb SSD in favor of a 320gb mechanical drive. The Lenovo U300s is similar, has the same chip, 128gb SSD, but only runs 1366x900 instead of 1440x900 but even then, you pay $1,199 which is only $100 cheaper than the macbook air. And I think a lot of people would pay that extra $100 for the extra rows of pixels and a 50-watt-hour battery instead of a 30-watt-hour battery, especially if they are using the same hardware.

Point is hardware aside, apple has a right to protect their OS and if they only want to use it on their systems, that is a choice they can make. Dell chose to launch laptops that only use either windows or ubuntu as their preinstalled OS. Why cant they give us Fedora? Or Red Hat, or any other OS? They get to chose what OS they want to include, and that is all there is too it.

[TRIPTEX_CAN]

TLR

Macintosh- the effective use of marketing to convince hipsters that an attractive box of "premium hardware" (actually average shit) is worth more than it really is.

Isnt there a mac support group where macsters can all get together and talk about how awesome their macs are..... away from people who don't care.

[Frick]

Originally Posted by TRIPTEX_CAN

TLR

Macintosh- the effective use of marketing to convince hipsters that an attractive box of "premium hardware" (actually average shit) is worth more than it really is.

Isnt there a mac support group where macsters can all get together and talk about how awesome their macs are..... away from people who don't care.

http://images.nonexiste.net/img/irc/...n29-fanboy.jpg

Oooooorrrr people who hate Macs stay away from threads about them so they do not become so upset?

I'm just so tired of this eternal discussion and how everyone who hates Apple have to spill it around at every chance they get.

[qubit]

Originally Posted by TRIPTEX_CAN

TLR

Macintosh- the effective use of marketing to convince hipsters that an attractive box of "premium hardware" (actually average shit) is worth more than it really is.

Isnt there a mac support group where macsters can all get together and talk about how awesome their macs are..... away from people who don't care.

http://images.nonexiste.net/img/irc/...n29-fanboy.jpg

Ugh, that's gross! This is the true face of the Apple fanboi.

[TRIPTEX_CAN]

Originally Posted by Frick

Oooooorrrr people who hate Macs stay away from threads about them so they do not become so upset?

I'm just so tired of this eternal discussion and how everyone who hates Apple have to spill it around at every chance they get.

I'm not upset. You see that wall of text up there? What a joke.... tell me someone's pulse wasnt at 120bpm protecting the Mac honor....

[wickerman]

Whats sad is they even people who call them selves "enthusiasts" can be so naive. When facts are presented about competing products costing the same amount of money, you brush it off and start complaining about something else.

Do you think Apple is alone in their marketing? Intel is just as guilty with their "intel inside" stickers. How many people would buy a PC with that sticker because they were told intel was better than AMD back in the days when the Pentium 4 was slower and less energy efficient than the Athlon 64 that cost the same or cheaper? Same for the Pentium D days.

What about google, they splash their "with google" on every android smart phone because they have told people it means something to have google technology. Never mind that competing tech exists from other brands and may be just as good, or better. Never mind that it is the handset maker that makes the device, chooses the hardware, and puts it out for sale...it has to have that "with google" sticker on it because marketing tells people that sticker means something.

You say other people are getting upset when they are trying to have a simple debate about technology on a forum that exists specifically for people to discuss technology... It takes a wall of text sometimes to explain your view point, and to include reference and materials to support your thoughts. Anyone who is unwilling or unable to support their views on technology with anything more than "because its my opinion" is the real fanboy.

Most apple hardware is not over priced, apple is not an evil company, and people who buy apple products are not all fanboys and mindless drones. Just because you feel that way doesn't make it true. I've provided numerous valid points to support why apple was right to go after psystar in an effort to protect their products. And I've shown that anything similar to the 27" imac or the macbook air using the same hardware costs about the same. All you've done is put up a picture of a man in a skin tight suit that you've probably had saved on your hard drive for some unknown and possibly creepy reasons.

[TRIPTEX_CAN]

I was going to respond but you keep adding paragraphs.

Comparing the way Apple handles competition (suing everyone) to Google adding a lable on the back of some phones is a bit of a streatch but you can write another essay if you feel like it.

[Frick]

Originally Posted by TRIPTEX_CAN

I'm not upset. You see that wall of text up there? What a joke.... tell me someone's pulse wasnt at 120bpm protecting the Mac honor....

Then stop trolling.

[Katanai]

Originally Posted by TRIPTEX_CAN

http://images.nonexiste.net/img/irc/...34jan29-fanboy

Damn you! Damn you! That picture burned a hole in my retina. Arghhhhhhh! It cannot be unseen!

[wickerman]

Originally Posted by TRIPTEX_CAN

I was going to respond but you keep adding paragraphs.

Comparing the way Apple handles competition (suing everyone) to Google adding a lable on the back of some phones is a bit of a streatch but you can write another essay if you feel like it.

We can pretend google has never filed a lawsuit before if you like. Hey why don't we pretend lawsuits just don't happen in the world of technology? If only you're delusions were reality. Fact is companies sue each other all the time over patents, contracts, anti-competitive practices, and even ads. Once again you prove the point that some people are simply prejudice.

Really, I'd love to hear your opinions on Apple and what ever materials you have to support them, even if they are just your own experiences.