3rd party DRM on Steam (New Batman and L.A. Noire)

Mr McC · Oct 27, 2011, 12:48 PM

I avoided the first Batman title as a result of the Securom and I am aware that others did the same. However the upcoming sequel still includes the Securom even on Steam:

http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/showt...-news-for-most!

For its part, L.A. Noire is set to use GameShield on the version released through Steam.

I would more than likely have bought both games on Steam if they had no 3rd-party DRM.

Without any wish to get into another debate about DRM, I fail to understand why there is a need for any further protection on Steam releases. Steam itself is DRM and as a user I have already consented to its use, so why the need to clutter my computer with so much unnecessary crap? Is it simply laziness on the part of the developer or do Sony oblige everyone using Securom to include it on all platforms used to release the title? Surely two and even three different DRM layers is both excessive and potentially problematic?

n-ster · Oct 27, 2011, 12:50 PM

What exactly do theses DRMs do? Do they do anything negative to the legit buyer?

Mr McC · Oct 27, 2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n-ster

What exactly do theses DRMs do? Do they do anything negative to the legit buyer?

Many people would claim that they have no effect on the gaming experience and should simply be ignored; however, numerous problems have been attributed to almost each and every form of DRM, particularly Securom. In addition to technical problems there is also the issue of installation limits, a means of enforcing a lease contract rather than ceding ownership. In any event, what they do not do is accomplish what they were allegedly intended to do, namely, stop piracy.

Check out this site:

http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/

FordGT90Concept · Oct 27, 2011, 01:01 PM

Steam DRM is ineffective; Rockstar and Warner Brothers know it. The cracking groups can break it in a matter of minutes. This is why they add a second layer of protection effectively meaning the cracking groups might as well get the DVD version and crack that instead because they'll only have to contend with one layer of security instead of two.

Of course it doesn't do any good to add two layers of security when both are relatively easy to break but, it helps them sleep better at night.

Mr McC · Oct 27, 2011, 01:05 PM

I assume the lost sales cause them no sleepless nights, after all, they can't be measured.

n-ster · Oct 27, 2011, 01:05 PM

Shareholders are happier = stock is valued higher

qubit · Oct 27, 2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr McC

I avoided the first Batman title as a result of the Securom and I am aware that others did the same. However the upcoming sequel still includes the Securom even on Steam:

http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/showt...-news-for-most!

For its part, L.A. Noire is set to use GameShield on the version released through Steam.

I would more than likely have bought both games on Steam if they had no 3rd-party DRM.

Without any wish to get into another debate about DRM, I fail to understand why there is a need for any further protection on Steam releases. Steam itself is DRM and as a user I have already consented to its use, so why the need to clutter my computer with so much unnecessary crap? Is it simply laziness on the part of the developer or do Sony oblige everyone using Securom to include it on all platforms used to release the title? Surely two and even three different DRM layers is both excessive and potentially problematic?

Yeah, I'm so with you on this. I always check for third party DRM before buying anything on Steam. You remember how I got a refund a while back for undisclosed securom crap on Crysis 2 on Steam? I started a thread on it. Crysis 2 is no longer available on Steam, anyway.

Mr McC · Oct 27, 2011, 01:08 PM

Quibit, I remember the thread well and applaud your stance and the outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n-ster

Shareholders are happier = stock is valued higher

I only wish there was a method of calculating lost sales resulting from DRM usage, that might cause more than a few shareholders to cough on their claret.

n-ster · Oct 27, 2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr McC

Quibit, I remember the thread well and applaud your stance and the outcome.

I only wish there was a method of calculating lost sales resulting from DRM usage, that might cause more than a few shareholders to cough on their claret.

I doubt standard DRMs lose many sells TBH. A few thousand at most. Remember games re targeted towards the masses, not just the tech community

lilhasselhoffer · Oct 27, 2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n-ster

What exactly do theses DRMs do? Do they do anything negative to the legit buyer?

They, by definition, influence the legit buyer. These programs consume system resources (albeit a small amount), force connectivity to the parent company, and have a track record of borking systems should the wind be blowing in the wrong direction.

If you'd like a brief history, search these forums for Punk Buster.

Steam, in my opinion, was the first group to get it right. Minimal intrusion, friendly interface, and convenient structure. Before attaining this, Steam suffered through its early crappy phase.

n-ster · Oct 27, 2011, 01:33 PM

I've never had much of an issue with PB except that it runs even when the game is not even running, so I gotta terminate the services manually

lilhasselhoffer · Oct 27, 2011, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n-ster

I've never had much of an issue with PB except that it runs even when the game is not even running, so I gotta terminate the services manually

That's good for you.

I don't mean this in a condescending way, I mean to say that you are not representative of everyone. I can say that I rarely have problems with DRM, but when I do they are game breakers. To not be able to play a game, because the game makers want to "protect" themselves with DRM, is a joke.

To have two types of balloons, with holes in each (installing DRM on a platform which is DRM), does not hold water better than a single balloon with a hole. The water may be retained for a longer period of time, but it will still escape. In the mean time, the person who paid for the water is angry because they can only get the water they paid for through one orifice.

Edit: Edited for not being on topic.

newtekie1 · Oct 27, 2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr McC

In any event, what they do not do is accomplish what they were allegedly intended to do, namely, stop piracy.

That would be correct if the DRM was designed to stop piracy, but they aren't...so...yeah...

Quote:

Originally Posted by n-ster

I doubt standard DRMs lose many sells TBH. A few thousand at most. Remember games re targeted towards the masses, not just the tech community

People should also remember that DRM is targeted at the masses too.

Arciks · Oct 27, 2011, 04:13 PM

Absolutely dont care about this crap of DRM or securom, I play game only once dont play it twice,exception was diablo 2 and MMO games.So DRM means for me absolutely nothing.

WhiteNoise · Oct 27, 2011, 04:36 PM

The only thing I can add to this conversation is I buy every game I want to play. I pay no attention to the DRM's used and to this date I have never had an issue (technically) or not being able to reinstall a game I bought. To my knowledge most games that limit installs can have each install reversed simply by uninstalling the game. But I personally haven't had any problems.

1Kurgan1 · Oct 27, 2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteNoise

The only thing I can add to this conversation is I buy every game I want to play. I pay no attention to the DRM's used and to this date I have never had an issue (technically) or not being able to reinstall a game I bought. To my knowledge most games that limit installs can have each install reversed simply by uninstalling the game. But I personally haven't had any problems.

Same, I don't get the big fuss. If you don't have an internet connection, then I could see a problem with some of the DRM out there. But then, I doubt you would be posting here.

HossHuge · Oct 27, 2011, 04:53 PM

Is the DRM the reason I can't sell my games (without giving away my username)? Cause if it is that's the reason it sucks for me.

WhiteNoise · Oct 27, 2011, 05:05 PM

Considering I never sell PC games thats one thing I don't have to worry about.

I only sell PS3 and 360 games once in awhile.

JC316 · Oct 27, 2011, 06:31 PM

I hate the third party DRM. Drives me up the wall because it's so damned touchy. The later Splinter Cell games is a good example. Half of the game is just trying to get that crap to work. Bioshock 2 and the limited number of activations is another. It's tethered to my steam account, not like I can sell it, so whats the point?

Mr McC · Oct 27, 2011, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr McC

In any event, what they do not do is accomplish what they were allegedly intended to do, namely, stop piracy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtekie1

That would be correct if the DRM was designed to stop piracy, but they aren't...so...yeah...

It is correct, you missed the "allegedly".

1Kurgan1 · Oct 27, 2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HossHuge

Is the DRM the reason I can't sell my games (without giving away my username)? Cause if it is that's the reason it sucks for me.

No, Disc games come with DRM as well. The reason you can't sell your games is thats just how Steam works. But the massive benefit you get is Steam sales, in the end it pays off to have Steam just for those.

erocker · Oct 27, 2011, 08:34 PM

I don't see what Steam has to do with it. Whether you buy it on steam or elsewhere it's going to have this DRM. Steam is just a retail outlet like any other service of this type. I'll buy it and not give it a second thought.

Mr McC · Oct 27, 2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erocker

I don't see what Steam has to do with it. Whether you buy it on steam or elsewhere it's going to have this DRM. Steam is just a retail outlet like any other service of this type. I'll buy it and not give it a second thought.

DRM primarily exists to prevent second-hand sales and only hinders the most inept from obtaining a pirated copy. Steam is not merely a retail outlet, it is a form of DRM and works to the same extent as other forms of DRM in preventing piracy i.e. not at all where someone is determined not to pay. Given that Steam already "protects" I fail to see the need for any further DRM, particularly when you consider that, in the best possible situation, additional DRM serves no logical purpose other than pointlessly nibbling away at resources.

RejZoR · Oct 27, 2011, 08:53 PM

If we have Steam, we don't need another shit attached to the games. Valve should be more strict about this. No 3rd party DRM or they can buzz off.

FordGT90Concept · Oct 27, 2011, 09:10 PM

Valve would lose many publishers (virtually all except those that are already lax with DRM) and they simply can't afford to do that.

Oct 27, 2011, 12:48 PM	#1
Mr McC Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,186 (1.02/day) Thanks: 287 Thanked 333 Times in 249 Posts System Specs	3rd party DRM on Steam (New Batman and L.A. Noire) I avoided the first Batman title as a result of the Securom and I am aware that others did the same. However the upcoming sequel still includes the Securom even on Steam: http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/showt...-news-for-most! For its part, L.A. Noire is set to use GameShield on the version released through Steam. I would more than likely have bought both games on Steam if they had no 3rd-party DRM. Without any wish to get into another debate about DRM, I fail to understand why there is a need for any further protection on Steam releases. Steam itself is DRM and as a user I have already consented to its use, so why the need to clutter my computer with so much unnecessary crap? Is it simply laziness on the part of the developer or do Sony oblige everyone using Securom to include it on all platforms used to release the title? Surely two and even three different DRM layers is both excessive and potentially problematic?

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Oct 27, 2011, 12:50 PM	#2
n-ster Eligible for custom title Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Montreal Posts: 8,306 (5.13/day) Thanks: 1,210 Thanked 1,420 Times in 1,153 Posts System Specs	What exactly do theses DRMs do? Do they do anything negative to the legit buyer? __________________ My Heatware

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Oct 27, 2011, 01:01 PM	#4
FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!" Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: IA, USA Posts: 10,650 (6.23/day) Thanks: 1,786 Thanked 2,632 Times in 1,986 Posts System Specs	Steam DRM is ineffective; Rockstar and Warner Brothers know it. The cracking groups can break it in a matter of minutes. This is why they add a second layer of protection effectively meaning the cracking groups might as well get the DVD version and crack that instead because they'll only have to contend with one layer of security instead of two. Of course it doesn't do any good to add two layers of security when both are relatively easy to break but, it helps them sleep better at night. __________________ Golden Rule of Programming: Never assume. try { SteamDownload(); } catch (Steamception ex) { RageQuit(); }

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Oct 27, 2011, 01:05 PM	#5
Mr McC Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,186 (1.02/day) Thanks: 287 Thanked 333 Times in 249 Posts System Specs	I assume the lost sales cause them no sleepless nights, after all, they can't be measured.

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Oct 27, 2011, 01:33 PM	#11
n-ster Eligible for custom title Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Montreal Posts: 8,306 (5.13/day) Thanks: 1,210 Thanked 1,420 Times in 1,153 Posts System Specs	I've never had much of an issue with PB except that it runs even when the game is not even running, so I gotta terminate the services manually __________________ My Heatware

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Oct 27, 2011, 04:13 PM	#14
Arciks Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Northampton,UK Posts: 1,700 (1.03/day) Thanks: 244 Thanked 146 Times in 120 Posts System Specs	Absolutely dont care about this crap of DRM or securom, I play game only once dont play it twice,exception was diablo 2 and MMO games.So DRM means for me absolutely nothing. __________________ Blizzard Btag(EU)>Arciks#2909 Steam ID: Arciks PSN ID:Arciks

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Oct 27, 2011, 04:36 PM	#15
WhiteNoise Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 964 (0.61/day) Thanks: 157 Thanked 198 Times in 149 Posts System Specs	The only thing I can add to this conversation is I buy every game I want to play. I pay no attention to the DRM's used and to this date I have never had an issue (technically) or not being able to reinstall a game I bought. To my knowledge most games that limit installs can have each install reversed simply by uninstalling the game. But I personally haven't had any problems. __________________ PS3 Fat 120GB // PS3 Slim 250GB // XBOX 360 Elite 120GB // XBOX 360 4GB w/ Kinect EK-Supreme HF - Full Nickel - Rev 2 // Swiftech MCP655-B // Danger Den Reservoir // XSPC RX480 Quad 120mm Radiator // Bitspower True Silver & Enzotech fittings // DangerDen Tube Active UV Hose // (4x) Scythe Gentle Typhoon 120mm Fan, 1850 RPM

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Oct 27, 2011, 04:53 PM	#17
HossHuge Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Taiwan Posts: 1,814 (1.00/day) Thanks: 514 Thanked 457 Times in 303 Posts System Specs	Is the DRM the reason I can't sell my games (without giving away my username)? Cause if it is that's the reason it sucks for me. __________________ But they are useless. They can only give you answers. ~Pablo Picasso, about computers

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Oct 27, 2011, 05:05 PM	#18
WhiteNoise Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 964 (0.61/day) Thanks: 157 Thanked 198 Times in 149 Posts System Specs	Considering I never sell PC games thats one thing I don't have to worry about. I only sell PS3 and 360 games once in awhile. __________________ PS3 Fat 120GB // PS3 Slim 250GB // XBOX 360 Elite 120GB // XBOX 360 4GB w/ Kinect EK-Supreme HF - Full Nickel - Rev 2 // Swiftech MCP655-B // Danger Den Reservoir // XSPC RX480 Quad 120mm Radiator // Bitspower True Silver & Enzotech fittings // DangerDen Tube Active UV Hose // (4x) Scythe Gentle Typhoon 120mm Fan, 1850 RPM

Oct 27, 2011, 06:31 PM	#19
JC316 Knows what makes you tick Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: DFW/ Texas Posts: 6,047 (2.24/day) Thanks: 715 Thanked 914 Times in 698 Posts System Specs	I hate the third party DRM. Drives me up the wall because it's so damned touchy. The later Splinter Cell games is a good example. Half of the game is just trying to get that crap to work. Bioshock 2 and the limited number of activations is another. It's tethered to my steam account, not like I can sell it, so whats the point? __________________ Core 2 Duo Overclocking guide Athlon 64 overclocking guide “If I were to do this, it'd be my luck that the door would rip off the hinges, burst into flames, and rape my face with fiery hot death.” -El Fiendo

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Oct 27, 2011, 08:34 PM	#22
erocker Senior Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Milwaukee, WI. Posts: 32,292 (12.78/day) Thanks: 2,817 Thanked 12,451 Times in 7,917 Posts System Specs	I don't see what Steam has to do with it. Whether you buy it on steam or elsewhere it's going to have this DRM. Steam is just a retail outlet like any other service of this type. I'll buy it and not give it a second thought.

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Oct 27, 2011, 08:53 PM	#24
RejZoR Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Europe/Slovenia Posts: 3,979 (1.25/day) Thanks: 39 Thanked 758 Times in 542 Posts System Specs	If we have Steam, we don't need another shit attached to the games. Valve should be more strict about this. No 3rd party DRM or they can buzz off. __________________ RejZoR's Little Secrets @ rejzor dot tk

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Oct 27, 2011, 09:10 PM	#25
FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!" Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: IA, USA Posts: 10,650 (6.23/day) Thanks: 1,786 Thanked 2,632 Times in 1,986 Posts System Specs	Valve would lose many publishers (virtually all except those that are already lax with DRM) and they simply can't afford to do that. __________________ Golden Rule of Programming: Never assume. try { SteamDownload(); } catch (Steamception ex) { RageQuit(); }

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