techPowerUp! Forums

Go Back   techPowerUp! Forums > Hardware > General Hardware

View Poll Results: Do you still overclock your PC?
YES - I'm a hardcore overclocker 88 77.88%
NO - overclocking is a dying hobby 21 18.58%
I'll be trying it for the first time, soon 1 0.88%
Comes out from under rock and asks: What is 'overclocking'? 3 2.65%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Dec 3, 2011, 03:55 PM   #26
1Kurgan1
The Knife in your Back
 
1Kurgan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 6,723 (4.13/day)
Thanks: 3,098
Thanked 2,320 Times in 1,561 Posts

System Specs

Poll needs more options, I'm not whipping out the dry ice here, or pushing voltages and limits, just going for a speed increase that I don't have to test the shit out of to find stability, also I'm not a first time OCer, I just am constantly running some sort of OC.
__________________
1Kurgan1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 04:27 PM   #27
Frick
Fishfaced Nincompoop
 
Frick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,901 (2.99/day)
Thanks: 1,076
Thanked 1,449 Times in 1,155 Posts

System Specs

No. The CPU is overkill at stock, why should I push it further? Overclocking is nice but CPU's of today generally are very fast anyway so I think it's a dying thing. The performance gains are often not noticable anyway.
__________________
Typemachine: Acer Aspire One D250 | Atom N280 1.6 Ghz | 1GB DDR2 | 160GB SATA | 10.1' 1024 x 600 | Lubuntu 12.10
Oldbox: HP D530 | Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz | 1GB DDR | 40GB | Windows XP
"The 'gentle biker' look is overdone. I'm going for 'psycho hillbilly.' "
Frick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 04:39 PM   #28
Black Panther
Senior Moderator™
 
Black Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,063 (3.23/day)
Thanks: 2,170
Thanked 1,838 Times in 1,104 Posts

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
Hardcore clocking can use air too, uh-huh. I'd call your laptop clocking hardcore, BP!
Lol I never oc'd the laptop, must be confusing me with someone else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frick View Post
No. The CPU is overkill at stock, why should I push it further? Overclocking is nice but CPU's of today generally are very fast anyway so I think it's a dying thing. The performance gains are often not noticable anyway.
Not really. It depends on which games you play. If you play a game which uses only 2 cores (like Skyrim, ugh..) it'll make little if any difference on whether you're using an i7 at 2.6Ghz or a cheap core 2 duo at 2.6Ghz. In fact, a dual overclocked to 4Ghz will give you a better performance than that i7 at stock.

Now if it's really going to be overkill then I really wouldn't bother (at least for gaming since for video editing and the like I don't think there could be any overkill). I can't find an example with a cpu right now but consider my graphics card, I can overclock it but it'd be pointless to do so on my current system. It'd be like revving my engine all the way up, while the gearbox only goes up to 3rd gear. I'd still be moving at the same speed.
Black Panther is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 04:48 PM   #29
cadaveca
My name is Dave
 
cadaveca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 10,779 (4.14/day)
Thanks: 4,504
Thanked 5,241 Times in 3,213 Posts

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Panther View Post
Lol I never oc'd the laptop, must be confusing me with someone else


Must be. My apologies.

cadaveca is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 04:54 PM   #30
INSTG8R
2000 Posts
 
INSTG8R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost in Norway
Posts: 2,581 (0.83/day)
Thanks: 934
Thanked 378 Times in 320 Posts

System Specs

LOL WUT?

Hellz Yeah I OC. Can't think of a CPU I haven't OC'd in my last 5 rigs. But then again I have been on Water for a long time as well so it's just easy too push it.

GPU OC'ing I don't bother with anymore because really the gains are pretty minimal.
__________________
Sys. Specs.
i7 2600K@4.6|ASUS P67 Sabertooth|2x4096 Corsair Vengence 1600 |Sapphire HD7970 OC|WD Caviar Black 6.0Gbps 1TB x2@RAID 0|SB X-Fi Fatality Pro|TT Toughpower 1.2kW|TT Kandalf L.C.S.|Acer V243H 24" 1920x1080|Logitech G25|Logitech G500|Logitech G19|Saitek X-52 Pro|TrackIR4 w/Trackclip Pro
INSTG8R is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 05:03 PM   #31
Wrigleyvillain
3500 Posts
 
Wrigleyvillain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,507 (2.20/day)
Thanks: 1,527
Thanked 1,579 Times in 1,122 Posts

System Specs

Yes. And not just cause I can and certainly not cause I'm "hardcore" (whatever that really means).

I do it cause I still get a real performance benefit out of it.
__________________
“i dont care what consoles have they dont have mouse and keyboard” -crazyeyesreaper
Wrigleyvillain is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 05:14 PM   #32
1Kurgan1
The Knife in your Back
 
1Kurgan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 6,723 (4.13/day)
Thanks: 3,098
Thanked 2,320 Times in 1,561 Posts

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frick View Post
No. The CPU is overkill at stock, why should I push it further? Overclocking is nice but CPU's of today generally are very fast anyway so I think it's a dying thing. The performance gains are often not noticable anyway.
An AII 435 is far from overkill, that won't be nearly enough Proc for Skyrim, probably not enough for BF3 or Crysis 2 either. A friend basically had your same comp, except a 5770 and he couldn't run any modern games at high settings, mostly ran things on mediums. Overkill would be pushing some of the highest settings and still having a good amount of head room on FPS.
__________________
1Kurgan1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 1Kurgan1 For This Useful Post:
Old Dec 3, 2011, 05:23 PM   #33
3dsage
1000 Posts
 
3dsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NW Burbs of Chicago
Posts: 1,309 (0.79/day)
Thanks: 465
Thanked 331 Times in 275 Posts

System Specs

Its definately not as fun as before, I dont know if its an age thing for me. But overclocking isnt as challenging as before.. For example , I had my SB 2500K set at 5ghz stable within 2 days of minor tweaking, not to fun or even challenging.

I remember trying to get my Phenom 9850 to overclock 700-800mhz over stock for weeks lol..

Its definately losing its appeal, but im going to continue to do it, indefinitely.
__________________
3dsage is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 05:46 PM   #34
Easy Rhino
Linux Advocate
 
Easy Rhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,226 (4.29/day)
Thanks: 1,208
Thanked 2,775 Times in 1,793 Posts

System Specs

i think like most folks on tpu, when i get a new cpu or gpu i overclock it to see how i high i can get it. then i usually keep it around 5-10% OC for the rest of its life.
Easy Rhino is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 05:49 PM   #35
LagunaX
500 Posts
 
LagunaX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 958 (0.62/day)
Thanks: 76
Thanked 274 Times in 186 Posts

System Specs

For the feel of a ''fast'' system SSD's have pretty much reduced the perceived impact of overclocking or faster ram. For the woman's email/pics/shopping/YouTube rig her i3-2100 paired with a Seagate Hybrid Momentus XT seems plenty fast and just sips electricity.

However, I can go no slower than 4.8ghz and DDR 2133 as in my signature below. Swapping to an OCZ Vertex 3 when I finally get around to it but the 600gb Velociraptor has been a pure pleasure...
__________________
i7-3770k 4.8ghz 1.21-1.24v Delidded 3231B415
i7-2600k 4.8ghz L041C108 1.32v PLL off Venomous-X Push/Pull
Asus P8P67 Vanilla
Samsung 30nm MV-3V4G3D/US 2x4GB @ 9-10-10-28 1T DDR3 2133 1.6v
Diamond HD 7970
Corsair TX750W
CM 690 II Advanced
LagunaX is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 05:59 PM   #36
de.das.dude
3500 Posts
 
de.das.dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Wild Wild East
Posts: 4,588 (4.26/day)
Thanks: 2,337
Thanked 1,343 Times in 920 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to de.das.dude

System Specs

whats an AMD system if you dont OC? AMD is fun to OC.
__________________
my wallet isnt hashwell compatiple *sad face*
de.das.dude is online now  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to de.das.dude For This Useful Post:
Old Dec 3, 2011, 06:18 PM   #37
Altered
500 Posts
 
Altered's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 791 (0.43/day)
Thanks: 250
Thanked 126 Times in 116 Posts

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricSoul View Post
I voted yes, but I wouldn't consider myself "hardcore".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jagjitnatt View Post
Overclocking used to be cool when it was tough to do.
Im about the same here. Not seriously hardcore. Years ago my pc would struggle to play the games I wanted to play. OCing was more necessity to have a better experience. Now days CPUs have plenty of power to play great games. Not that I don't like to have fun seeing what it will do. Its sort of fun to see if you got a great chip but I am not buying selling or swapping them in hopes of finding some jewel. I like knowing if I need a little more I can run it up as well. But my 2500K has no problem with 99% of the average uses while good with games at stock settings. I like OCing just not my main hobby and not something I really "need" to do as in the past. But hey I still enjoy the turbo set to hit 4400 at stock volts.
__________________
CPU-Z validation sig pics temporarily blocked
Altered is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 06:28 PM   #38
Solaris17
Creator Solaris Utility DVD
 
Solaris17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Reinacting scenes from platoon with Charlie Sheen
Posts: 13,708 (4.83/day)
Thanks: 4,366
Thanked 3,295 Times in 2,311 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Solaris17 Send a message via AIM to Solaris17 Send a message via MSN to Solaris17 Send a message via Yahoo to Solaris17 Send a message via Skype™ to Solaris17

System Specs

I voted no. But not because I dont OC. You see I see this 2 diffirent ways. the black and white my shits at 4Ghz or its stock. And what I consider the real world way. Actual OCing. I dont OC like alot of the members here do. i registered in 2005 that was 6 years ago. I had a socket A 1.2Ghz duron on a VIA chipset radeon 7500 and 768mb of ram.

I then got a soundblaster live soundcard so I could hear footsteps in morrowind. What does all that mean? I do overclock. But I OC in the bios. IMO the magic is gone. you have all these programs with fancy UI and alot of options. Some even have just as much as the cell/genie menu in the bios. But its a dying art. not overclocking but rather the spirit of it. I think manul adjustment is what is dying. It is far to easy for some 16 yr/o to open up MSI easytune and get 3.6ghz. Their is no fun in it. you hit apply the number changes and you feel nothing. When I overclock I adjust PLL IOH VCC adjust LLC PWM and amplitude modulation.

When I hit 4Ghz I feel happy im pumped. I feel like iv done something I can be proud of. I sit for hours play bios get a result and continue to tweak until I find my chips and general system maximum. I can tell my TPU friends. Post some scores and talk about it. It makes me proud. Go ahead i challenge you go ask the young asus control panel kids what VTT PWM switch frequency is. They dont know. Correction they just googled it. See my point? I voted no because I dont overclock the way the majority of the overclockers clock now. I clock the way the old dogs do. and THAT is a dying breed.
__________________
I Made the Millionth post! | "Please come to WI now so I can beat you over the head with a bratwurst."-Kreij
PS3 mod 8500/8600GT Mod Guide Rebuild a Copperhead Heat Ware
NF4 Ultra SLI Mod Solaris Utility DVD 4.0 Broken CPU pin guide
Vista Mark
Solaris17 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Solaris17 For This Useful Post:
Old Dec 3, 2011, 06:51 PM   #39
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
 
qubit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Quantumville UK
Posts: 8,649 (4.33/day)
Thanks: 4,178
Thanked 3,303 Times in 1,943 Posts

System Specs

@Solaris17

Great post, I know what you mean by the magic is gone. I guess it's a bit like comparing a manual car to an auto - all that fine control and understanding of the engine and car handling goes out the window. All you do is press that accelerator and it goes fasterer. Whoopedo.

DFI were very much of the old guard and you could manually tweak everything just so, but they pulled out of the enthusiast market for some reason. It might take you a month of experimenting with all the hundreds of different settings, but at the end of it you'd end up with a highly tuned PC flying at Mach 4. Abit were like that too, before they went under and they were my manufacturer of choice.
__________________
Siggie in the post.
qubit is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to qubit For This Useful Post:
Old Dec 3, 2011, 06:57 PM   #40
Paulieg
The Mad Moderator
 
Paulieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wherever I can find the iron.
Posts: 11,448 (5.00/day)
Thanks: 2,519
Thanked 3,054 Times in 2,098 Posts
Send a message via MSN to Paulieg

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by qubit View Post
@Solaris17

Great post, I know what you mean by the magic is gone. I guess it's a bit like comparing a manual car to an auto - all that fine control and understanding of the engine and car handling goes out the window. All you do is press that accelerator and it goes fasterer. Whoopedo.

DFI were very much of the old guard and you could manually tweak everything just so, but they pulled out of the enthusiast market for some reason. It might take you a month of experimenting with all the hundreds of different settings, but at the end of it you'd end up with a highly tuned PC flying at Mach 4. Abit were like that too, before they went under and they were my manufacturer of choice.
Agree completely with the DFI and Abit thing. Miss them Terribly. Oscar Wu was a bios mad scientist.
__________________
"I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds."
-Henry Rollins


My heatware
Save lives by joining the TPU WCG team!
Paulieg is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Paulieg For This Useful Post:
Old Dec 3, 2011, 07:00 PM   #41
Solaris17
Creator Solaris Utility DVD
 
Solaris17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Reinacting scenes from platoon with Charlie Sheen
Posts: 13,708 (4.83/day)
Thanks: 4,366
Thanked 3,295 Times in 2,311 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Solaris17 Send a message via AIM to Solaris17 Send a message via MSN to Solaris17 Send a message via Yahoo to Solaris17 Send a message via Skype™ to Solaris17

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by qubit View Post
@Solaris17

Great post, I know what you mean by the magic is gone. I guess it's a bit like comparing a manual car to an auto - all that fine control and understanding of the engine and car handling goes out the window. All you do is press that accelerator and it goes fasterer. Whoopedo.

DFI were very much of the old guard and you could manually tweak everything just so, but they pulled out of the enthusiast market for some reason. It might take you a month of experimenting with all the hundreds of different settings, but at the end of it you'd end up with a highly tuned PC flying at Mach 4. Abit were like that too, before they went under and they were my manufacturer of choice.
Im just calling it how i see it man. Everyone can drive but only one of them knows how to drive a car. Thats why they hit 3.6 and I hit 4 they dont know why it locks when they move the slider more. I know that i need to adjust the pll scew. I know why it shifts at 2300 but when you get on it it shifts at 5. they dont know what a powerband is.
__________________
I Made the Millionth post! | "Please come to WI now so I can beat you over the head with a bratwurst."-Kreij
PS3 mod 8500/8600GT Mod Guide Rebuild a Copperhead Heat Ware
NF4 Ultra SLI Mod Solaris Utility DVD 4.0 Broken CPU pin guide
Vista Mark

Last edited by Solaris17; Dec 3, 2011 at 07:05 PM.
Solaris17 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Solaris17 For This Useful Post:
Old Dec 3, 2011, 07:09 PM   #42
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
 
qubit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Quantumville UK
Posts: 8,649 (4.33/day)
Thanks: 4,178
Thanked 3,303 Times in 1,943 Posts

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulieg View Post
Agree completely with the DFI and Abit thing. Miss them Terribly. Oscar Wu was a bios mad scientist.
It might sound a bit sad, but besides the solid Abit design, I really loved that orange colour they applied to most of their boards.

I've got three Abit mobos and they have 'listed' status for me. They all work fine and none of them are going anywhere. They are:

AN7 - Socket A (AMD Athlon XP, AGP)
AI7 - S478 (Intel P4 Northwood, AGP)
AN8 Ultra - S939 (AMD Athlon64 X2, PCI-E)


This one I donated to a friend, who didn't have much cash and it's still running fine to this day:

AV8-3rd Eye - S939 (AMD Athlon64, AGP) Upgraded because I needed PCI-E

Incredibly, the website is still running, although not updated.
__________________
Siggie in the post.
qubit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 07:19 PM   #43
Enmity
200 Posts
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 391 (0.26/day)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 36 Times in 23 Posts

System Specs

I got hooked on overclocking when I built my first rig which had a Barton 2800+ which i had sitting on 2.5Ghz using some thermalright heatsink which was full copper...TH-97 or something? Pushing this cpu via my good ole trusty A-bit NF7-S mobo...oh i loved that rig - was a shame that the Gigabyte Radeon 9800 XT I had in there wouldn't move even 5Mhz - but geez, those were the days.

Since then I had a AMD 9750 rig which I didn't really clock up since the mobo I was using with it was locked down and I got rid ofthat rig pretty quickly - sold the whole lot inc the 8800GTS when i upgraded to my current platform but had 4850 crossfire originally, before these 5850's. I've got everything in here overclocked

This rig has seen a lot of love but I can't wait to start fresh - and this time i want to go for my first ever intel build

I'm no real enthusiast, but i like getting the most out of what I've got. I'll always be an overclocker.
Enmity is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 07:33 PM   #44
Enmity
200 Posts
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 391 (0.26/day)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 36 Times in 23 Posts

System Specs

Edit:

it was the Thermalright SP97
Enmity is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 07:36 PM   #45
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
 
qubit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Quantumville UK
Posts: 8,649 (4.33/day)
Thanks: 4,178
Thanked 3,303 Times in 1,943 Posts

System Specs

@Enmity

Oh yeah, those NF7's were legendary! No wonder you loved that board.

On the Intel side, the IC7-MAX3 was the board to have for overclocking feats.
__________________
Siggie in the post.
qubit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 08:40 PM   #46
KieranD
Eligible for custom title
 
KieranD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 5,460 (2.59/day)
Thanks: 1,640
Thanked 822 Times in 713 Posts
Send a message via MSN to KieranD

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Rhino View Post
i think like most folks on tpu, when i get a new cpu or gpu i overclock it to see how i high i can get it. then i usually keep it around 5-10% OC for the rest of its life.
Exactly, 24/7 clocks.
KieranD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 09:00 PM   #47
MasterInvader
200 Posts
 
MasterInvader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Portugal
Posts: 246 (0.40/day)
Thanks: 15
Thanked 57 Times in 50 Posts

System Specs

Quote:
Originally Posted by de.das.dude View Post
whats an AMD system if you dont OC? AMD is fun to OC.
+1

Mine X4 955B runs @ 4.1 since day one [08/2010] 24/7 with a proper WC system.
MasterInvader is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 09:25 PM   #48
LagunaX
500 Posts
 
LagunaX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 958 (0.62/day)
Thanks: 76
Thanked 274 Times in 186 Posts

System Specs

Actually now that there are voltage offset options outside of voiding warranties there isn't such a big concern for not overclocking due to power consumption issues.
__________________
i7-3770k 4.8ghz 1.21-1.24v Delidded 3231B415
i7-2600k 4.8ghz L041C108 1.32v PLL off Venomous-X Push/Pull
Asus P8P67 Vanilla
Samsung 30nm MV-3V4G3D/US 2x4GB @ 9-10-10-28 1T DDR3 2133 1.6v
Diamond HD 7970
Corsair TX750W
CM 690 II Advanced
LagunaX is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 09:27 PM   #49
Derek12
500 Posts
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 925 (0.75/day)
Thanks: 480
Thanked 142 Times in 134 Posts

System Specs

I only overclock the video card, the rest goes mad when trying to do so.
Derek12 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 3, 2011, 09:44 PM   #50
INSTG8R
2000 Posts
 
INSTG8R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost in Norway
Posts: 2,581 (0.83/day)
Thanks: 934
Thanked 378 Times in 320 Posts

System Specs

Yep I sure do miss ABit their boards had great, smart BIOS's for OC'ing. I would still be on ABit if they were still around. They were my #1 MoBo and built many a rig around them.
__________________
Sys. Specs.
i7 2600K@4.6|ASUS P67 Sabertooth|2x4096 Corsair Vengence 1600 |Sapphire HD7970 OC|WD Caviar Black 6.0Gbps 1TB x2@RAID 0|SB X-Fi Fatality Pro|TT Toughpower 1.2kW|TT Kandalf L.C.S.|Acer V243H 24" 1920x1080|Logitech G25|Logitech G500|Logitech G19|Saitek X-52 Pro|TrackIR4 w/Trackclip Pro
INSTG8R is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you still replace your VGA cooler? qubit Graphics Cards 31 Feb 14, 2011 08:34 PM
if you want to see if your overclock is truely stable try this tool trt740 Graphics Cards 4 Jun 15, 2009 11:13 PM
Do you need to overclock your video card to play games? EastCoasthandle Graphics Cards 38 Aug 27, 2008 03:37 PM
How much can you overclock your system? djbbenn News 10 May 2, 2007 05:55 AM
i still cant get a higher overclock past 225fbs now quasar923 Overclocking & Cooling 15 Dec 26, 2006 09:17 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
no new posts