Bass Ackwards, Need to build CPU with raw cpu power (not for gaming)

[Jack Doph]

I use Sonar X1 (Producer Edition) & I have more than 30GB of Soundfonts & VSTis - I have yet to do anything (audio-wise) that even comes close to making my system break out in a sweat.
More than a 2600K/2700K is just a waste of money really.

Originally Posted by theeldest

I'd also recommend a SB-E system but I think you'd be about $275 over budget if you keep everything else the same (or nearly).

One point, you can drop your memory speed to 1866. The performance difference to faster memory is negligible. Otherwise what you have listed in the original post is about the best all-around performance you can get in that price range. (I'd look at doing a 2x8GB kit instead of 4x4GB, though. Gives you the option of going to 32GB later and it only adds about $20 to the price now)

^ this. I found 1866MHz to be the sweet spot & more speed is wasted for your uses - latency is a bit more important, but at that speed, also not as important.

[Aquinus]

Originally Posted by CaptainFailcon

if you really wanna go bawls to the socket's then u should be looking at dual socket xeon-server board
24 threads and 24GB of ECC DDR3 will do a lot of work

Since that would use his budget for just a single board and cpu. This isn't feasible for the price he wants to spend.

If you take the server route, dual C32 Valencias would be the cost effective solution, considering you can slap the equivalent of two FX-8120s on one board and that might be able to get squeeze into the budget since video isn't important.

[Dent1]

Originally Posted by qubit

@rectifryer

No it doesn't. AMD's best can't hold their own in anything nowadays and that's been benchmarked and analyzed to death. Crying shame, but that's how it is. I'd really like to see the benchies that convinced you it could.

Considering the Thurban X6 can hold its own again the i7 2600k in various multi threaded task I'm sure the FX with 2 additional cores can hold its own too.

Originally Posted by rectifryer

The AMD system is getting converted into a HTPC/server for all storage in the house. I have to build another CPU regardless. So I figured, instead of buying a crap cpu for the HTPC, why not make a capable device that can also act as server then build another cpu altogether for recording. Its more this way, but its only around 600 dollars more which isnt alot considering IMO.

That gives me a blank slate, if you will. From what I can tell, a 2600k will still outperform a 1055t by far in bench tests. Those tests are from Anandtech so I have no idea how biased they are. I do love my thuban, but I hope that a couple generations later something has came up to replace it.

As someone else said the X6 thurban isnt the best CPU to use as an HTPC, its overkill and isn't power efficient enough. I guess you can downclock it, reduce the voltage and turn on Cool & Quiet but it's a wate of a good CPU. The cheapest and efficient solution would to sell your X6 Phenom II and drop in the FX 8 core for your multi tasking needs. Then spend only $300-400 of on building a dedicated HTPC comprising of an AMD Llano or Trinity APU.

If you want to start fresh go straight for Ivy Bridge. Sandy bridge is in the past. Get the i5 3xxx k series.

[Fourstaff]

Originally Posted by Dent1

Considering the Thurban X6 can hold its own again the i7 2600k in various multi threaded task I'm sure the FX with 2 additional cores can hold its own too.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/t...x8150-tested/7

Very few programs gives a clear victory to 8150 compared to 2600K let alone the Thuban x6

[Dent1]

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/t...x8150-tested/7

Very few programs gives a clear victory to 8150 compared to 2600K let alone the Thuban x6

So you are in agreement the FX 8150 is a good alternative to the 2600k for work related and multi threaded tasks? For a cheap drop in CPU.

[Aquinus]

Originally Posted by Dent1

So you are in agreement the FX 8150 is a good alternative to the 2600k for work related and multi threaded tasks? For a cheap drop in CPU.

I don't think that is what he was trying to say, but for the price now it's worth it for those kinds of workloads.

[Fourstaff]

Originally Posted by Dent1

So you are in agreement the FX 8150 is a good alternative to the 2600k for work related and multi threaded tasks? For a cheap drop in CPU.

If you have the Thuban already upgrading to the 8150 gives little performance boost to outright losing, depending on program. This is something which needs to be analysed program to program, and on top of that you are losing the better single threaded performance of the Thuban. Sorry, odds are stacked against upgrading from Thuban to 8150.

[Dent1]

Originally Posted by Fourstaff

If you have the Thuban already upgrading to the 8150 gives little performance boost to outright losing, depending on program. This is something which needs to be analysed program to program, and on top of that you are losing the better single threaded performance of the Thuban. Sorry, odds are stacked against upgrading from Thuban to 8150.

Sort of agree, single threaded tasks will have little benefit overal Thurban to FX, a bit of a program on program basis which might not be convincing enough to change from a Thurban. Bear in mind Thurbans Max OC is 3.8-4.0GHz area, whereas FX can achieve the 4.5-4.7GHz area which should sway the performance in the FX's favour in singlethreaded apps.

The Multi threaded tasks should favour the FX notice, the two multithreaded tasks PAR2 Benchmark and Cinebench even outperformed the i5 2500k.

The Thurban still has held its value, if the OP could sell it for $100, pick up the FX 8120 for $170. It would be a good $70 upgrade.

[Fourstaff]

Originally Posted by Dent1

Sort of agree, single threaded tasks will have little benefit overal Thurban to FX, a bit of a program on program basis which might not be convincing enough to change from a Thurban. Bear in mind Thurbans Max OC is 3.8-4.0GHz area, whereas FX can achieve the 4.5-4.7GHz area which should sway the performance in the FX's favour in singlethreaded apps.

The Multi threaded tasks should favour the FX notice, the two multithread tasks PAR2 Benchmark and Cinebench even outperformed the i5 2500k.

The Thurban still has held its value, if the OP could sell it for $100, pick up the FX 8120 for $170. It would be a good $70 upgrade.

Sometimes with these software you don't really want to push the chips to the bleeding edge due to the increase error chances.

The 8150 might be able to beat the 2500K, but it still loses to the 2600K by a huge margin in almost everywhere, and we are considering 2600K not 2500K.

No, it will be a waste of your $70 to get less than 10% increase (which is more or less unnoticeable outside benchmarks/tests)

[Dent1]

^

Thurban is a great CPU, it's hard justify moving from the X6 to a FX or 2500K/2600K to be frank when you weigh the price /performance and hassle of changing sockets etc.

I think OP could get away with keeping his Thurban and just upgrading the RAM. Then concentrate only $400 on building a dedicated HTCP based on Llano or Trinity. This way he will save a shitload of money. He can always revisit the CPU issue in a few months when Piledriver is released.

Saying that the Intel 3xxx K is my first choice for a fresh build.

[Jstn7477]

Originally Posted by Melvis

Does it say on the MSI website that it will support the FX CPU? and what version is the board?

Also the white socket must have the bigger pin holes also or it wont work.

Yes, the page on the MSi website states in both the marketing section and the CPU support section that it supports all AMD FX CPUs with a BIOS update. http://us.msi.com/product/mb/890FXA-.../?div=Overview

"Some manufacturers have brought AM3+ support to some of their AM3 motherboards via a simple BIOS upgrade.[11] Mechanical compatibility has been confirmed and it's possible for AM3+ CPUs to fit in AM3 boards, provided they can supply enough peak current. Another issue is the use of the sideband temperature sensor interface for reading the temperature from the CPU. Therefore, some CPU PWM fan pins may only run at full speed. Also, certain power-saving features may not work, due to lack of support for rapid VCore switching.[12] Note that use of AM3+ CPUs in AM3 boards is not officially supported by AMD." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM3%2B#Socket_AM3.2B

[rectifryer]

Originally Posted by Dent1

^

Thurban is a great CPU, it's hard justify moving from the X6 to a FX or 2500K/2600K to be frank when you weigh the price /performance and hassle of changing sockets etc.

I think OP could get away with keeping his Thurban and just upgrading the RAM. Then concentrate only $400 on building a dedicated HTCP based on Llano or Trinity. This way he will save a shitload of money. He can always revisit the CPU issue in a few months when Piledriver is released.

Saying that the Intel 3xxx K is my first choice for a fresh build.

I think this sums up the thread nicely.

Originally Posted by lilhasselhoffer

Perhaps I'm missing the wording, but I don't get it.

Do you want to spend $1200 for a completely new system? Do you want to make an HTPC and gaming rig between what you have now and $1200? Do you, perhaps, not even know what you want beyond the fact that it needs to run certain programs well?


If you've got the need to build a HTPC, then reusing a Phenom x6 is foolish. Running that 24/7 is going to put a real hurt on the power bill. On top of that, 6 cores is so far overkill that there aren't adequate words. You can build an I3 based system that is just as capable for a few hundred dollars, and save the Phenom for gaming.

if you want a multi-core beast you have to go with the 3930k from Intel. The problem is that you'll need either very high end air or water cooling, the boards are expensive, and your budget leaves little room for decent graphics. It can be done, but you need to know that CPU power is 100% what you need.


Please don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like an arts student. Playing at what you don't know is a good way to lose quite a bit of money. If I were building a rig for a content creator I would go with: 3820 CPU, motherboard with 8 RAM slots (populate all with 4GB sticks), medium range graphics card, high end PCI-e audio card, a prefabricated water cooling loop for the CPU cooler, a large MLC based SSD (something like the 240 GB Agility 3), and a big HDD for content storage.
CPU: 300 USD, but 8 threads and quad channel RAM.
Graphics: Enough to render media well, or GPGPU if the programs support it.
Audio: What you said you need.
Water Cooler: Very capable, quiet running, and very little to worry about.
SSD: Relatively cheap, but still offering enough space and performance to be "felt" by most users.
HDD: Media creators need storage.

Also, to satisfy conjecture, I am not an art student. I am studying EE at UCF. Lets clarify some of my original statements:

1) I want to build another computer because an keeping an OC'd thuban cool is loud. I could spring for water cooling it but putting together a kit is cost prohibitive. Why not just use this board/cpu as a SERVER/HTPC that I need anyways? Think the bolded part is what some are reading over. At idle, this setup doesnt pull much power as it is. I don't think having it on is going to add much to my elec. bill. Honestly, I haven't even considered this aspect so thanks for letting me know.

2)I don't care about graphics at all.


HOWEVER,

Most of you are saying that upgrading from a 1055t to a 2600k in this case will be a waste? That makes me sad panda. That really sucks because I was all stoked to do this thinking there was something better out there. I don't understand though, because most of the benchmarks say an OC'd 2600k nearly doubles the power of a 1055t. Is this the case or not?

Originally Posted by Jack Doph

I use Sonar X1 (Producer Edition) & I have more than 30GB of Soundfonts & VSTis - I have yet to do anything (audio-wise) that even comes close to making my system break out in a sweat.
More than a 2600K/2700K is just a waste of money really.


^ this. I found 1866MHz to be the sweet spot & more speed is wasted for your uses - latency is a bit more important, but at that speed, also not as important.

3). Jack, Cakewalk 8.5 PE running FL 10 with IN Massive is a stress on my system. Combining that with live monitoring and you are looking at more latency than clients would like during recording. It doesn't necessarily max it out, but it puts my 1055t outside its comfort zone (probably due to poor single thread performance). I do ALOT of work with plugins and vst(i)s. I have alot of money tied up there, thus optimizing my system for this makes sense in the long run. I noticed you have a 2600k and run a similiar setup, that makes me think this is worth it.

4) I already have the audio card I am planning to use, in this case its a M-Audio 1010lt PCI card.


I really appreciate you guys' input. Critiiques of the setup are exactly what I am looking for.

[Dent1]

Originally Posted by rectifryer

1) I want to build another computer because an keeping an OC'd thuban cool is loud. I could spring for water cooling it but putting together a kit is cost prohibitive..

Thurban isn't loud, its your brand/type of heatsink sucks. You are probably using the stock heatsink provided or a poor aftermarket one. You can stick on a Scythe Ninja or Zalman CNPS9900A or premium aftermarket heatsink for $30-50 and I garantee you it will be virtually silent. Better yet get a passive heatsink like the Scythe Kozuti and put your own 10dBA fan and you won't hear any noise what so ever.

Fill in your current specification. http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/profile.php?do=specs

Originally Posted by rectifryer

HOWEVER,

Most of you are saying that upgrading from a 1055t to a 2600k in this case will be a waste? That makes me sad panda. That really sucks because I was all stoked to do this thinking there was something better out there. I don't understand though, because most of the benchmarks say an OC'd 2600k nearly doubles the power of a 1055t. Is this the case or not?

I wouldn't say it's twice as fast, but yes it is signficantly faster overall mostly in single threaded applications.

The issue is your usage seems to be quite niche, in some multi threaded tasks the 1055T can perform almost as fast or as fast which mades which changing sockets less desirable.

The i5 3xxx is of a newer and faster architecture than the 2600k, IMO upgrading will be a bigger jump than the 2600k. But either way the 1055T is still great and you've got a solid upgrade path for Piledriver.

[Jstn7477]

A little bit of a thread detour here, but I have a Thuban (1045T @ 3GHz on a cheapo board) and a 2600K @ 4.5GHz with HT enabled. Both run World Community Grid distributed computing programs, which is set to use all 6 cores of the Thuban, and 3 out of 8 threads (37.5%) of my i7 2600K. The 2600K using 37.5% of the CPU actually matches and beats the Thuban by a few hundred points daily (we're talking like 3600 vs. 3300 here yesterday). You can verify on my stats here (I'm not here to show off or anything, I just want to prove a point: http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?p...cg&name=652421

If you scroll down to the Hosts table, you'll see several machine IDs and stats. ID 1784897 is the 2600K and 2004979 is the 1045T. I just increased the threads from 2 to 3 two days ago on the 2600K so the past stats are off a bit, but it seems to do ~1K+ points per thread. The 3GHz Thuban appears to get ~550 points per core, and my 3.6GHz Deneb gets about 450 points per core.

I know this isn't related to content creation at all, but it shows how stupidly fast and efficient Sandy Bridge (and even more so Ivy Bridge) are. Not saying the Thuban isn't solid, but it's relatively slower and in the content creation industry where speed matters especially on live audio/video feeds, the Intel will take the cake.

[rectifryer]

Originally Posted by Dent1

Thurban isn't loud, its your brand/type of heatsink sucks. You are probably using the stock heatsink provided or a poor aftermarket one. You can stick on a Scythe Ninja or Zalman CNPS9900A or premium aftermarket heatsink for $30-50 and I garantee you it will be virgually silent. Better yet get a passive heatsink link the Scythe Kozuti and put your own 10dBA fan and you won't hear any noise what so ever.

Fill in your current specification. http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/profile.php?do=specs

I have that specific zalman. I think you are right anyways. My case fans are really the problem.

What I should say is that running fans at their rated voltage seems to be loud. I was thinking that I could undervolt the fans in a water cooled setup and end up with less fans and less noise from each individual fan.

Originally Posted by Jstn7477

A little bit of a thread detour here, but I have a Thuban (1045T @ 3GHz on a cheapo board) and a 2600K @ 4.5GHz with HT enabled. Both run World Community Grid distributed computing programs, which is set to use all 6 cores of the Thuban, and 3 out of 8 threads (37.5%) of my i7 2600K. The 2600K using 37.5% of the CPU actually matches and beats the Thuban by a few hundred points daily (we're talking like 3600 vs. 3300 here yesterday). You can verify on my stats here (I'm not here to show off or anything, I just want to prove a point: http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?p...cg&name=652421

If you scroll down to the Hosts table, you'll see several machine IDs and stats. ID 1784897 is the 2600K and 2004979 is the 1045T. I just increased the threads from 2 to 3 two days ago on the 2600K so the past stats are off a bit, but it seems to do ~1K+ points per thread. The 3GHz Thuban appears to get ~550 points per core, and my 3.6GHz Deneb gets about 450 points per core.

I know this isn't related to content creation at all, but it shows how stupidly fast and efficient Sandy Bridge (and even more so Ivy Bridge) are. Not saying the Thuban isn't solid, but it's relatively slower and in the content creation industry where speed matters especially on live audio/video feeds, the Intel will take the cake.

That is very relevant to my interests. Thanks for sharing.

[Dent1]

Originally Posted by rectifryer

I My case fans are really the problem.

You should buy your fans from http://www.quietpc.com / co.uk etc


They specialise in really quiet fans. Once you find the fan you want look up the same model elsewhere for cheaper.

I would start by removing any 80mm fans infavour for 120mm and 140mm ones as they are slower moving, often lower voltage and give better CFM (airflow).

Something like the Noctua NF-S12B, dBA from 6.5 - 18. which is virtually silent. It also comes with rubber grips to stop vibration. You also want to use only the 3-pin connection straight to your motherboard so your system can automatically control the voltage based upon temparature etc (or so you can cantrol it manually in the bios). I personally wouldn't buy any fan that exceeds 20dBA peak.

http://www.quietpc.com/products/120mmfans/nf-s12b-flx

Originally Posted by rectifryer

I have that specific zalman.

What I should say is that running fans at their rated voltage seems to be loud. I was thinking that I could undervolt the fans in a water cooled setup and end up with less fans and less noise from each individual fan.

You should be able to undervolt your current fans in the bios. doesn't have those options? There should be options so the increased voltage only triggers when above a certain temparature.

Which model of Zalmans are you using?

Edit: stn7477, interesting results. I don't know much about folding, but your results do have a 1.5GHz handicap. I would be interested to see both CPUs at the same clock speed 4 core (2600K) vs 6 core (Thurban).

[Fourstaff]

Friend has a HTPC/server built around Gentoo Ahtlon dual core (first gen), it works perfectly fine. You don't need superpowerful stuff for servers unless you are hosting some serious game, and even then a chap quad core can do the job easily.

Either way, I still want you to consider either getting a 3820 or even 3930K, the increased RAM bandwidth is more than welcome here. 2600K is also a decent target, but I can safely say anything lower than a 2600K will be a royal waste of time and money since that the performance difference the increased quietness will not recoup the cost, especially if you are planning to push the new CPU to the edge (and end up with lots of noise anyway)

[rectifryer]

Well hot damn. This thuban isnt cutting it power wise so what am I going to do with it? Should I just sell this system, use the extra to pay for a server setup and add to my 1200$ budget? This is an awkward situation.

[Dent1]

Originally Posted by rectifryer

Well hot damn. This thuban isnt cutting it power wise so what am I going to do with it? Should I just sell this system, use the extra to pay for a server setup and add to my 1200$ budget? This is an awkward situation.

The chances are your Thurban rig would outperform any HTPC grade CPU i.e. Llano or Trinity APU (not clock for clock, but overall performance) so effectively, you'd be selling it for a downgrade or for similar performance. The only benefit it is would consume less power and output less heat which is what HTPC are often based around.

Bear in mind, there is no rule saying that an HTPC has to be power friendly, its just most HTCP user leave their rig on 24/7 so its just an ideal. Nothing wrong with having a Thurban as an HTPC, just that it was built for more intensive tasks than movie playback. But it can be done.

It would be easier to downclock and undervolt the Thurban and turn on Cool & Quiet and whichever other power saving features your bios has.

In addition you can disable 2 or 3 of the cores within the bios to further increase power efficiency.

[theeldest]

Originally Posted by Dent1

You should buy your fans from http://www.quietpc.com / co.uk etc

They specialise in really quiet fans. Once you find the fan you want look up the same model elsewhere for cheaper.

I would start by removing any 80mm fans infavour for 120mm and 140mm ones as they are slower moving, often lower voltage and give better CFM (airflow).

Something like the Noctua NF-S12B, dBA from 6.5 - 18. which is virtually silent. It also comes with rubber grips to stop vibration. You also want to use only the 3-pin connection straight to your motherboard so your system can automatically control the voltage based upon temparature etc (or so you can cantrol it manually in the bios). I personally wouldn't buy any fan that exceeds 20dBA peak.

http://www.quietpc.com/products/120mmfans/nf-s12b-flx

+1

Check out my cooling. Noctua does a great job of making a 'silent' system. I've got a hefty overclock and two overclocked/unlocked GPUs and you can hardly hear it.

[Melvis]

Originally Posted by Jstn7477

Yes, the page on the MSi website states in both the marketing section and the CPU support section that it supports all AMD FX CPUs with a BIOS update. http://us.msi.com/product/mb/890FXA-.../?div=Overview

"Some manufacturers have brought AM3+ support to some of their AM3 motherboards via a simple BIOS upgrade.[11] Mechanical compatibility has been confirmed and it's possible for AM3+ CPUs to fit in AM3 boards, provided they can supply enough peak current. Another issue is the use of the sideband temperature sensor interface for reading the temperature from the CPU. Therefore, some CPU PWM fan pins may only run at full speed. Also, certain power-saving features may not work, due to lack of support for rapid VCore switching.[12] Note that use of AM3+ CPUs in AM3 boards is not officially supported by AMD." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM3%2B#Socket_AM3.2B

Fair enough then, thats good for the OP, had to make sure, better be safe then sorry.

Originally Posted by Jstn7477

A little bit of a thread detour here, but I have a Thuban (1045T @ 3GHz on a cheapo board) and a 2600K @ 4.5GHz with HT enabled. Both run World Community Grid distributed computing programs, which is set to use all 6 cores of the Thuban, and 3 out of 8 threads (37.5%) of my i7 2600K. The 2600K using 37.5% of the CPU actually matches and beats the Thuban by a few hundred points daily (we're talking like 3600 vs. 3300 here yesterday). You can verify on my stats here (I'm not here to show off or anything, I just want to prove a point: http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?p...cg&name=652421

If you scroll down to the Hosts table, you'll see several machine IDs and stats. ID 1784897 is the 2600K and 2004979 is the 1045T. I just increased the threads from 2 to 3 two days ago on the 2600K so the past stats are off a bit, but it seems to do ~1K+ points per thread. The 3GHz Thuban appears to get ~550 points per core, and my 3.6GHz Deneb gets about 450 points per core.

I know this isn't related to content creation at all, but it shows how stupidly fast and efficient Sandy Bridge (and even more so Ivy Bridge) are. Not saying the Thuban isn't solid, but it's relatively slower and in the content creation industry where speed matters especially on live audio/video feeds, the Intel will take the cake.

What does the 2600K score at 3GHz? 6 threads vs 6 threads but one is at 3GHz and the other is at 4.5GHz i would expect the 2600k to win

Im a bit confused here as you say HT is enabled but your only using three threads?

[JrRacinFan]

Originally Posted by Melvis

your only using three threads?

With crunching you can set aside how many cores/threads you want to do the work for the projects.

@jstn

Core speed makes all the difference. What's happenning is essentially you are running your 3 cores on the 2600k in "double time" so to speak in comparison to that Thuban. What's happenning is you are getting the same amount of work done due to clock speed alone. Try 3Ghz on the 2600k and see where it falls.

[Melvis]

Originally Posted by JrRacinFan

With crunching you can set aside how many cores/threads you want to do the work for the projects.

Yea that's what's confusing me, if he is only using three threads (3 cores i presume), why bother with HT turned on? or am i missing something here? or is the 3 cores been helped by HT?

Originally Posted by JrRacinFan

Core speed makes all the difference. What's happenning is essentially you are running your 3 cores on the 2600k in "double time" so to speak in comparison to that Thuban. What's happenning is you are getting the same amount of work done due to clock speed alone. Try 3Ghz on the 2600k and see where it falls.

Exactly!!

[Aquinus]

Originally Posted by Melvis

Yea that's what's confusing me, if he is only using three threads (3 cores i presume), why bother with HT turned on? or am i missing something here? or is the 3 cores been helped by HT?

No, hyperthreading helps all those applications running in the background. Hyperthreading only helps if the extra logical cores actually get used.

Originally Posted by Melvis

Exactly!!

That only means that IPC of the i7 is higher. More work done per clock which means Intel is getting more instructions through even though it's at the same clock. I would still recommend the 3820, not because the 3820 is a better CPU (it is marginally better than the 2600k), but because X79 is a better platform with more upgrade options and with another line of CPUs slated for early next year.

[JrRacinFan]

Originally Posted by Melvis

why bother with HT turned on? or am i missing something here?

Yup, what you are missing is 1 extra core that can be used for daily use, 4 extra threads for multitasking. When he wants to game, WCG/crunching will just momentarily "shut down" and allow him to use those other 3 cores if needed.