A lot of us have lots of $ invested in our PC, risk of storms destroying it? Thoughts

[westom]

Originally Posted by Sasqui

I lost my very first compter (386/25, with 64k cache!) to a lightning strike, so yes. I had it hooked to a "surge protector" that was even switched off. The surge jumped the contacts I suspect.

Even when switched off, an appliance is still connected to AC mains and the surge. A protector too far from earth ground and too close to appliances gives a surge even more paths to find earth destructively via the appliance. In fact, an adjacent protector can bypass superior protection in a computer's power supply by connecting that surge directly to its motherboard.

Did you really think a 2 centimeter part inside a power strip will stop what three miles of sky could not? Most do only because hearsay and advertising says that.

Two completely different devices exist; both called protectors. One located adjacent to appliances does not even claim to protection from destructive surges. And costs tens or 100times more money.

The other is located adjacent to earth ground. Has numbers that define protection even from direct lightning strikes. And costs about $1 per protected appliance. This completely different device is the only solution found in any facility that cannot have damage. Separation between the protector and appliance increases protection. But more important is what makes any protector effective: that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground.

Lightning will easily blow through an open switch or blown fuse. But it need not do so. Since an adjacent protector provides more wires to bypass superior protection inside the supply. Protector connects a surge directly to the motherboard.

Above says what one device, called a protector, does. And why it does not even claim to protect. Above also introduces another completely different device, also called a protector. That routinely protects from direct lightning strikes, is many times less expensive, is the only solution used where damage must not happen, and is properly sized so as to not fail.

Or read manufacturer spec numbers. How does that 'adjacent to the computer' protector absorb hundreds of thousands of joules when its own numbers only claim to absorb hundreds of joules? Either that 2 cm part must block the surge. Or must absorb it. In reality it does neither. It only does what its spec numbers claim: protect from surges that typically cause no damage.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by westom

Even when switched off, an appliance is still connected to AC mains and the surge. A protector too far from earth ground and too close to appliances gives a surge even more paths to find earth destructively via the appliance. In fact, an adjacent protector can bypass superior protection in a computer's power supply by connecting that surge directly to its motherboard.

Did you really think a 2 centimeter part inside a power strip will stop what three miles of sky could not? Most do only because hearsay and advertising says that.

Two completely different devices exist; both called protectors. One located adjacent to appliances does not even claim to protection from destructive surges. And costs tens or 100times more money.

The other is located adjacent to earth ground. Has numbers that define protection even from direct lightning strikes. And costs about $1 per protected appliance. This completely different device is the only solution found in any facility that cannot have damage. Separation between the protector and appliance increases protection. But more important is what makes any protector effective: that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground.

Lightning will easily blow through an open switch or blown fuse. But it need not do so. Since an adjacent protector provides more wires to bypass superior protection inside the supply. Protector connects a surge directly to the motherboard.

Above says what one device, called a protector, does. And why it does not even claim to protect. Above also introduces another completely different device, also called a protector. That routinely protects from direct lightning strikes, is many times less expensive, is the only solution used where damage must not happen, and is properly sized so as to not fail.

Or read manufacturer spec numbers. How does that 'adjacent to the computer' protector absorb hundreds of thousands of joules when its own numbers only claim to absorb hundreds of joules? Either that 2 cm part must block the surge. Or must absorb it. In reality it does neither. It only does what its spec numbers claim: protect from surges that typically cause no damage.

Direct lighting strikes huh? Here you go again.

[INSTG8R]

Only thing I can think of that I lost due to a storm was the AC Adapter for my Router. My whole system is plugged into a "half decent" Belkin unit, PC was off but didn't think about the router. "Surge Master" my arse didn't even trip just fried that adapter...

[phanbuey]

When you buy stuff, be sure to get warranty on it.

There is nothing that can 100% protect your PC. In fact, your GF spilling coffee on your gaming rig (or you spilling your beverage) or a pipe leak, or a fire, or some other random physical act is just as likely (if not more) than a surge to take out your gear.

Bottom line - look at your computer exactly as you said - $ invested. If it is a large enough sum, insure it.

[CJCerny]

A well-made and well-designed surge protector is capable of stopping a lightning strike. That doesn't mean it is capable of stopping every lightning strike. Even the best surge protectors, however, cannot stop it completely. Lightning is a tricky beast. It can leap to electronics in a lot of different ways. Even if your device is completely unplugged from the wall, the EMP effect of a direct lightning strike can still destroy sensitive electronics if the strike is close enough. Getting a good surge protector, and making sure that all of your connections (network, cable, etc.) are run through it offers you some protection, but not complete protection. You'll need to make sure your devices are insured if you want complete protection.

[phanbuey]

Originally Posted by CJCerny

A well-made and well-designed surge protector is capable of stopping a lightning strike. That doesn't mean it is capable of stopping every lightning strike. Even the best surge protectors, however, cannot stop it completely. Lightning is a tricky beast. It can leap to electronics in a lot of different ways. Even if your device is completely unplugged from the wall, the EMP effect of a direct lightning strike can still destroy sensitive electronics if the strike is close enough. Getting a good surge protector, and making sure that all of your connections (network, cable, etc.) are run through it offers you some protection, but not complete protection. You'll need to make sure your devices are insured if you want complete protection.

I mean unless you live in a very high, dry, elevation with lots of lightning the odds of this are pretty low. If that is the case get a proper APC/power filtering unit and be sure to use plastic rizers/ insulating case components?

I think if you are that worried about lightning hitting your rig, you should get a bit more than a surge protector.

[westom]

Originally Posted by INSTG8R

My whole system is plugged into a "half decent" Belkin unit, PC was off but didn't think about the router. "Surge Master" my arse didn't even trip just fried that adapter...

Did you read those Belkin specs? It does not even claim to protect from destructive surges. Its numbers define protection only from surges that typically do no damage.

Despite popular hearsay, one effective protector must protect everything in the house even from a direct lightning strike. Its spec numbers will say so. For example, lightning is maybe 20,000 amps. So a 'whole house' protector is rated at least 50,000 amps - so that even the protector is not damaged. Facilities that cannot have damage always earth a 'whole house' protector. They need protection; not a scam.

For protection, buy something completely different that, unfortunately, has the same name. More responsible companies provide these 'whole house' protectors. Including General Electic, Intermatic, Ditek, Siemens, Leviton, ABB, Square D, and so many other companies known by any guy for their integrity. Critical is to earth a surge BEFORE it can enter the building. Only effective protectors also have a dedictated earthing wire. Any protector adjacent to electronics can sometimes make damage easier. Best protectors also increase separation between protector and electronics.

An effective protector connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Not to motherboard digital ground, chassis ground, wall recpetacle safety ground, or TV floating ground. That 'as short as possible' connection must be to what actually absorbs all surge energy - earth ground.

It's easy to sell magic boxes to the naive. The naive do not ask damning questions. For example, a protector adjacent to that router must either block a surge or absorb it. How does that 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? It cannot. How does its hundreds of joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't.

It does not have to. Notice how many just know it protects from lightning even if the manufaturer specifications do not even claim that protection. Honest replies include underlying facts and numbers. The Belkin did near zero protection that its own spec numbers said it would do. In some facilities, an employee could be fired for installing that Belkin. They cannot have damage.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by westom

Did you read those Belkin specs? It does not even claim to protect from destructive surges. Its numbers define protection only from surges that typically do no damage.

Despite popular hearsay, one effective protector must protect everything in the house even from a direct lightning strike. Its spec numbers will say so. For example, lightning is maybe 20,000 amps. So a 'whole house' protector is rated at least 50,000 amps - so that even the protector is not damaged. Facilities that cannot have damage always earth a 'whole house' protector. They need protection; not a scam.

For protection, buy something completely different that, unfortunately, has the same name. More responsible companies provide these 'whole house' protectors. Including General Electic, Intermatic, Ditek, Siemens, Leviton, ABB, Square D, and so many other companies known by any guy for their integrity. Critical is to earth a surge BEFORE it can enter the building. Only effective protectors also have a dedictated earthing wire. Any protector adjacent to electronics can sometimes make damage easier. Best protectors also increase separation between protector and electronics.

An effective protector connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Not to motherboard digital ground, chassis ground, wall recpetacle safety ground, or TV floating ground. That 'as short as possible' connection must be to what actually absorbs all surge energy - earth ground.

It's easy to sell magic boxes to the naive. The naive do not ask damning questions. For example, a protector adjacent to that router must either block a surge or absorb it. How does that 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? It cannot. How does its hundreds of joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't.

It does not have to. Notice how many just know it protects from lightning even if the manufaturer specifications do not even claim that protection. Honest replies include underlying facts and numbers. The Belkin did near zero protection that its own spec numbers said it would do. In some facilities, an employee could be fired for installing that Belkin. They cannot have damage.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=17

[Sasqui]

Originally Posted by westom

Did you really think a 2 centimeter part inside a power strip will stop what three miles of sky could not? Most do only because hearsay and advertising says that.

It take roughly 30,000 volts to jump a 1 inch gap

A typical lightning bolt contains 1 billion volts, you do the math.

[phanbuey]

Originally Posted by Sasqui

It take roughly 30,000 volts to jump a 1 inch gap

A typical lightning bolt contains 1 billion volts, you do the math.

LOL

[westom]

Originally Posted by Sasqui

It take roughly 30,000 volts to jump a 1 inch gap
A typical lightning bolt contains 1 billion volts, you do the math.

If 30,000 volts can jump 2.5 centimeters, then how does that 2 cm protector part in a magic box stop 1 billion volts? Magic power strips will stop it? Even its specs do not claim protection from a typically destructive surge.

Telcos all over the world suffer about 100 surges with each storm. How many times has your town been without phone service for 4 days while they replace that $multi-million computer? Never? How can that be if nothing can stop 1 billion volts?

Simple. Informed consumers and telcos do not buy expensive protectors that claim miracles. Do not buy protectors located adjacent to electronics. Do not buy protectors defined by the NIST as "useless".

A surge connected low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters') to earth ground is not inside the building. Routine is to absorb surges harmlessly in earth. Then everyone in town uses telephone without interruption during and after every thunderstorm. Superior solution costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Do the math. Number of days your town has no phone service after each thunderstorm? Zero. Protection, as used even 100 years ago, is that effective. And is not found or provided in 'many times more expensive' magic boxes. It did what it manufacturer specs said it would do. Did not even protect a router's supply.

Protection from all lightning is always about a current path into earth. If that path is inside via appliances, then damage is inevitable. If outside, then hundreds of thousands of joules (and that rumored billion volts) dissipate harmlessly in earth. Nobody even knew a surge existed. As Franklin first demonstrated in 1752.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by westom

If 30,000 volts can jump 2.5 centimeters, then how does that 2 cm protector part in a magic box stop 1 billion volts? Magic power strips will stop it? Even its specs do not claim protection from a typically destructive surge.

Telcos all over the world suffer about 100 surges with each storm. How many times has your town been without phone service for 4 days while they replace that $multi-million computer? Never? How can that be if nothing can stop 1 billion volts?

Simple. Informed consumers and telcos do not buy expensive protectors that claim miracles. Do not buy protectors located adjacent to electronics. Do not buy protectors defined by the NIST as "useless".

A surge connected low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters') to earth ground is not inside the building. Routine is to absorb surges harmlessly in earth. Then everyone in town uses telephone without interruption during and after every thunderstorm. Superior solution costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Do the math. Number of days your town has no phone service after each thunderstorm? Zero. Protection, as used even 100 years ago, is that effective. And is not found or provided in 'many times more expensive' magic boxes. It did what it manufacturer specs said it would do. Did not even protect a router's supply.

Protection from all lightning is always about a current path into earth. If that path is inside via appliances, then damage is inevitable. If outside, then hundreds of thousands of joules (and that rumored billion volts) dissipate harmlessly in earth. Nobody even knew a surge existed. As Franklin first demonstrated in 1752.

Here we go comparing telcos with normal residential houses again. Next up the Ufer ground system. When you gonna stop spreading unpractical FUD man.

[ChristTheGreat]

Originally Posted by W1zzard

I don't have any such protection and never experienced any problems. Germany's power network is great though, there's a short outage maybe once every two years.

Does anyone actually know anybody who had damage from lightning?

All powerbar, UPS I have have the 3 pins like this:



All what is important have this. Never had any issue. The only thing I saw that broke, was a VHS at my parent'S home, long time ago. Hydro-Quebec did pay for the broken stuff.



this was the problem. As for lightning, I guess before a lightning just hit your cable and not the transfo, it will broke your house and put it in fire lol.. There is alot of people having their house damage from lightning. I would care much more about my house and life, then my computer..

[Capitan Harlock]

Originally Posted by W1zzard

that's correct. we have three wires in the cable. one phase, one ground and one additional ground which is connected to the outer metal of the device. if the phase gets lose for some reason and touches the metal shell you'd get a nasty shock normally, but with that system it will just kick out the circuit breaker and people don't die.

for the discussion in this thread this makes no difference though

same in italy, the only problem is then italy and other country in europe bring energy from france ,and is a shit paying the company for energy than they dont make it xd

[m1dg3t]

My "main" rig is plugged into a Monster combo avs2000/hts5100 mk2, but thats only because it is in the rack beside the TV. My other box is plugged into an earthed $15 supressor with a $125k replacement coverage "guarantee"

Haven't decided what to do with my next build yet, still waiting on some parts so no rush

Edit: I'm more concerned with the 12g/10g ALU wire running throughout this apt building than being kicked by a lightning strike

[westom]

Originally Posted by ChristTheGreat

There is alot of people having their house damage from lightning. I would care much more about my house and life, then my computer..

Worry about a power bar that claims hundreds of joules. A surge - hundreds of thousands of joules - can easily overwhelm that protector. It has two choices. Disconnect protector parts as fast as possible while leaving the computer connected to that surge. Or not disconnect fast enough and create a house fire.

Grossly undersized protectors disconnect fast enough - most of the time. But many, such as ramjet33 on 6 Jun 2012, discovered the resulting house fire that almost killed his entire family. In "My 110 Tall had a fire over the weekend!":

After placing a 911 call and getting the kids situated, I found the fire behind the tank in the dining room. A quick hit with the extinguisher killed the flames but the damage has been done. All my powerheads, skimmer, and MH light is dead. All the chemicals under the stand melted. and my test kits were scorched. The fire investigator says a build up of moisture in the surge protector faild the circuit and superheated to combustible limits. ...
And the UL listed SP was still able to hold a charge enough to super heat the plastic to get flaming.

Just another reason why informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector. So that power strip protectors are protected - do not cause house fires.

melbourne architect in "Safety Switches / Surge Protection" at describes another protector created fire:

Cheap surge protectors have been known to catch fire (in one case, a Fire Station was burnt out; the red faced fireman later learnt it was due to the cheap surge protector/power strip in the office)

Even firemen sometimes have to learn this stuff the hard way. rather than read spec numbers. Protection means that current is not inside a building.

[Sasqui]

To be completely safe...



For the unitiated, that is a Faraday cage

[pantherx12]

How many lightning rods do you get on buildings in the US?

Anything over three stories high tends to get lead strips bolted to the top and side of the buildings here.


Also in an "emergency" you can use them to climb up the buildings XD

( I noticed that buildings in Italy, Torino anyway have the same strips)

[ChristTheGreat]

Originally Posted by westom

Worry about a power bar that claims hundreds of joules. A surge - hundreds of thousands of joules - can easily overwhelm that protector. It has two choices. Disconnect protector parts as fast as possible while leaving the computer connected to that surge. Or not disconnect fast enough and create a house fire.

Grossly undersized protectors disconnect fast enough - most of the time. But many, such as ramjet33 on 6 Jun 2012, discovered the resulting house fire that almost killed his entire family. In "My 110 Tall had a fire over the weekend!":

Just another reason why informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector. So that power strip protectors are protected - do not cause house fires.

melbourne architect in "Safety Switches / Surge Protection" at describes another protector created fire: Even firemen sometimes have to learn this stuff the hard way. rather than read spec numbers. Protection means that current is not inside a building.

We can't be 100% protected a TV open could make a fire, your electrical system while lseeping could start burning, without having a lightning strike..

So, basically, we should not buy anything that have electricity, or fire... We are sure to have only lightning strike to burn our house? ...

[westom]

Originally Posted by ChristTheGreat

We can't be 100% protected

Nobody said anything about 100% protection. But the IEEE says proper earthing provides "99.5% to 99.9% protection". Protection by earthing only one 'whole house' protector means a current need not hunt for earth inside; destructively via appliances. The IEEE then says, "Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... ".

Are those numbers good enough?

[Sasqui]

Originally Posted by pantherx12

How many lightning rods do you get on buildings in the US?

Anything over three stories high tends to get lead strips bolted to the top and side of the buildings here.

It depends on the area. From what I've witnessed, if a building is struck and damaged by lightning, the owners will usually end up installing one, after the fact.

National Electric Code:

The National Electrical Code is NFPA Document #70, as the Lightning Protection Standard is NFPA #780. These are separate documents available for adoption by the "local authority having jurisdiction" for construction projects in their locale. In many locations NFPA 70 (NEC) is adopted, but #780 is not - it is an option. The NEC does not require lightning protection, although it does reference 780 in several sections. Coordination generally exists between the Committees charged with keeping the documents updated. NEC references the fact that an electric service shall have a ground and lightning protection systems shall have separate grounds. NEC references the fact that when there is a 780 lightning protection system the grounds shall be interconnected with the electrical ground. NEC addresses surge suppression as an option, but wording is to be added to clarify that when a 780 lightning protection system is installed, the surge is required by that Standard. Items such as ground terminal devices are coordinated between documents, so that the same products are used in similar soil types. We would presume that since lightning risk assessment is determined through Annex L of the #780 document, and there are locations without much lightning activity, it would be difficult to require lightning protection everywhere or even on specific structures everywhere in a document like NEC. This would make the NEC document not as useful in certain areas.

I'm sure city codes are more stringent.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by westom

Nobody said anything about 100% protection. But the IEEE says proper earthing provides "99.5% to 99.9% protection". Protection by earthing only one 'whole house' protector means a current need not hunt for earth inside; destructively via appliances. The IEEE then says, "Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... ".

Are those numbers good enough?

The NIST and IEEE also say surge protectors are effective. So what is it westom? Also if you think a whole house protector can stop a direct hit I got a bridge to sell ya.

Originally Posted by Sasqui

It depends on the area. From what I've witnessed, if a building is struck and damaged by lightning, the owners will usually end up installing one, after the fact.

National Electric Code:



I'm sure city codes are more stringent.

In FL it goes by county. Miami-Dade has some of the more strict codes in the US.

[ChristTheGreat]

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

This guide is intended to provide useful information about the proper specification
and application of surge protectors, to protect houses and their contents from
lightning and other electrical surges.

Telephone line “primary protectors” have been required for almost 100 years, and
are normally spark gap protectors, based on either carbon or gas discharge tubes.
“Carbon block” protectors consist of carbon electrodes and an air gap.

one question I would like to ask, if proper earthing provides 99.5% to 99.9% protection, why not Grounding all what exist? So there would be no lightning strike?

[Batou1986]

My thoughts, a surge protector is like a seat belt it will save your ass most of the time but when you drive off the road and hit a tree at 100mph not much is going to save you.

Same apply's to lightning, most strikes and surges are going to occur away from your house which the surge protector will stop most of the time, lightning hits the ground 5ft from your house all bets are off.

When we get storms with lots of lightning and wind here i flip the breaker that all my equipment is hooked to and disconnect the cable line where it comes in the house.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by Batou1986

My thoughts, a surge protector is like a seat belt it will save your ass most of the time but when you drive off the road and hit a tree at 100mph not much is going to save you.

Same apply's to lightning, most strikes and surges are going to occur away from your house which the surge protector will stop most of the time, lightning hits the ground 5ft from your house all bets are off.

When we get storms with lots of lightning and wind here i flip the breaker that all my equipment is hooked to and disconnect the cable line where it comes in the house.

I can show you photo evidence of this. Hold on let me find the link.

Edit:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthrea...htning-damage?