Game Content, The Good, Bad and Ugly.

[INSTG8R]

I personally like the kind of game where I am IN the story. I get to "act it out" so to speak. Games like ME or Deus Ex where I am "part of the script" but I still have choices to how it plays out(or at least the illusion of choice) Mass Effect for example I am ALWAYS the "good guy" do the right thing, save everybody's life etc. I feel a connection to the characters and want everything to "work out"

While ME 3 was the poorest of the Trio(Which I haven't actually been able to finish because of "Online Pass" issues)I started it with a "full save" with both my ME1 and ME2 play throughs. There were so many "OH YEAH" moments where something I had done way back in ME1 or ME2 came back to greet me. Best one that comes to mind right away was I let the Rachni Queen live in ME1 and left her to go on her way. Well imagine my surprise when landing on some random Planet in ME3 and there she was needing my help again. What would have been there had I killed her way back in ME1? It's those kind of "decisions" and "outcomes" that make me feel "connected to a game and genuinely feel like I am part of the story/world.

[H82LUZ73]

Originally Posted by RejZoR

I still think System Shock 2 tops all my charts. If anyone remakes it to work on Win7 or Win8, i'm willing to pay 50 EUR for it (again).

The immersion level in this game is just jaw dropping. Anyone who played it will know what i mean. When you walk the decks of Von Braun and UNN Rickenbacker, you can just feel the metallic floor beneath your feet, everything about it is so believable. And i still think that if this game was done in any other engine than Dark Engine, it wouldn't feel like it did. The game was released in 1999, but it looked better than games released years later, mostly because they employed an artistic touch to textures that added the unique feel of bump mapping. Objects just felt like they have more detail and depth because of it even though they were still very low poly objects.

If there was a possibility to erase my memory of System Shock 2 gameplay i'd do it several times a year just to experience that pristine experience of playing it first time. Over and over.

probably the best late nighties game next to Half Life.SS2 scared me so bad I never played it all the way through,Metro 2033 is the same way for me,I hate being scared.....

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by INSTG8R

I personally like the kind of game where I am IN the story. I get to "act it out" so to speak. Games like ME or Deus Ex where I am "part of the script" but I still have choices to how it plays out(or at least the illusion of choice) Mass Effect for example I am ALWAYS the "good guy" do the right thing, save everybody's life etc. I feel a connection to the characters and want everything to "work out"

While ME 3 was the poorest of the Trio(Which I haven't actually been able to finish because of "Online Pass" issues)I started it with a "full save" with both my ME1 and ME2 play throughs. There were so many "OH YEAH" moments where something I had done way back in ME1 or ME2 came back to greet me. Best one that comes to mind right away was I let the Rachni Queen live in ME1 and left her to go on her way. Well imagine my surprise when landing on some random Planet in ME3 and there she was needing my help again. What would have been there had I killed her way back in ME1? It's those kind of "decisions" and "outcomes" that make me feel "connected to a game and genuinely feel like I am part of the story/world.

See this is why topics like this are so subjective. In ME I never felt like that, I always felt like the were telling me the story, what had happened and what was going to happen next, mostly because I had to do it myself. Also the story evolved (rather the universe changed) only because I did things. I didn't ever feel like the game universe was changing around me at all unless I did something. In HL2 despite being a railway game, the world evolves around you and despite being some sort of mesiah for the humans you are still a very little piece in the game universe. Same on Elder Scrolls game, even though you are again some kind of mesiah, you're still a rather small piece up until the main story has advanced too much (which I always avoid, +200h on Skyrim and I'm still far from completing the main plot).

[BumbleBee]

Mass Effect has a branching story and I like how the game recognizes your actions in the universe. even in the first game you hear news reports in elevators, NPC make comments, interviews with reporters, etc.

Skyrim should make you feel even more empowered because you spend most of the game solo and your character is supposed to be special but it never does. nobody recognizes. nobody cares.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by BumbleBee

Skyrim should make you feel even more empowered because you spend most of the game solo and your character is supposed to be special but it never does. nobody recognizes. nobody cares.

Huh? This is false. They often times recognize your actions. They instantly start recognizing you as the one who has killed the dragon Mirmulnir, and that's only the first thing you are recognized for. You're recognized as Thane of the different holds and given not only the title but the option to buy the house, etc, which IMO is a much better way for a game to recognize your merits than appearing on TV, which IMO is lame. Then Harbinger: Leader of the Companions, Archmage... In Oblivion they would recognize you as the Champion of the Arena too.

And going solo? That's your choice there's several followers and companions.

Anyway this happens late (at least on each of the particular guilds) and I'm glad that's the case, because, again IMO, no, you should never feel like you are the center of the world in a game. Maybe some people play games for that, but I think that's because they lack any sense of acomplisment in real life. They'd better of working for something IRL than playing games.

[mlee49]

When does the winner get announced?

I thought the contest ended when MailMan87 derailed this thread and made it about himself.

[BumbleBee]

you get no special status, no recognition. no matter how many guild, main quest, civil war quest you complete.. your always treated like a simpleton. Skyrim doesn't give an inch.

the characters are forgettable too. I felt more attached to Kaiden in Mass Effect than any character in Skyrim.

[Benetanegia]

Well I don't agree.

And ultimately the same happens in ME. IDK about the late ME but 50+ hours in the game, even tho they make you an Spectre early on, this has little consequences other than being able to buy their gear. No different than being able to get and make weapons in the SkyForge, plus in Skyrim the right to command people is gained through your acomplishments, in ME you do it from the beginning, you are already in command, there's no development at all.

EDIT: About charcters being forgetable, I agree, but again a game should not be about that (IMO always IMO). If I want deep characters I'll read a book.

[BumbleBee]

if they don't make the characters likable and interesting than you just stop caring and they become quest givers. I never had a moment like this in Skyrim.

[Benetanegia]

Again this is subjective. I don't want or need that in a game. No game has EVER made me care about their characters as much as I would do in real life (unlike books where I do), which makes it look to me just like a half-baked attempt to get hooked to unninteresting characters. Every game fails, because a game is not a movie or a book. Every character in every game that I've played including ME are shallow and are far from being as developed as a character in a good movie (read 5% of movies) or a book. I don't like many movies because of this same reason and I don't care about the characters because they are simply shallow. That's why I like TV series so much more than movies nowadays. There's time to develop the characters unlike in the movies. I would never go watch a movie looking for character development, because I would NOT find that 95% of times or it would be a mess and I don't try to find that in games either because 99% of them fail. For story and characters books, or to a lesser extent TV series.

EDIT: Also a LOT of people are attached to Skyrim characters such as Lydia, Aela the Huntress, Mjoll the Lioness. Vilkas, Varkas, etc etc.
EDIT2: OH and about the video. I've watched it again, because the first time I just skipped everyhing except where there were characters. I just realised that it's maybe about the ship and how they feel about it? See, if that's the case, it's what I was talking about, it is even worse. The entire scene is nothing but a blatant rip-off of many movies or books, but most importantly Stark Trek and the new Enterprise... If I want something like that I'll just watch any Star Trek or Firefly.

[INSTG8R]

JOKER!! See right there. I would ALWAYS take the time to visit the Helm to chat with him and see if he had anything new to say.

I was initially worried when I started ME3 he wouldn't be there. I was happy to see him and just as happy when I met up with any old member of my crew and didn't feel right until I had found them all. They were characters I was genuinely attached too.

[james888]

I have two categories for games, or even game modes. There is games with story and games with multiplayer action. Some of my favorite games are the multiplayer games, just for the action. Those can only be as good as their gameplay. The games with story is where the best stuff is.
The stalker series, especially chernobyl, really got to me. The atmosphere was amazing. I guess I didn't have too, but I played like I was really in that world. I got really immersed and it had a great story.
During the steam summer sales I bought the entire Deus ex series. I am halfway through the first game but it is already one of my favorite games ever. I also really like the philosophicalness it gets into.
I havn't played skyrim yet because I imagine it to be a medieval fallout with swords and magic. I played most of the way through fallout 3, then got bored. Found out you could cheat in the game. I then made myself invincible with the best weapons. I finished the game just being a rambo. I tried playing new vegas also, but didn't get into it enough at the beginning to even finish.

[BumbleBee]

ambition...

[Aleksander]

@bumble
good point

[james888]

Originally Posted by BumbleBee

ambition...

I need to play the mass effect series too...

[Benetanegia]

Let's see if I can make my point clear. I love stories, good stories as much as audiophiles love listening to music. So I read a lot of books.

Saying that X game has good story, characters, etc is like claiming you like music and you listen it on Youtube. Simply no. With Mass Effect and any other game for that matter, story is just a half-baked rehash or just plain rip-off of a better story, probably written 30+ years ago. Just go read it!

To me the only thing that makes a game story good (more like pasable) is the way it's fed to me. ME does it as if it was a movie, a bad movie and movies themselves are already bad enough.

HL2, Skyrim and a bunch of others don't feed you the story as if it was a movie, they let you be part of it and learn about the lore and story like you would in real life, by interacting with the world.

[MatTheCat]

I never thought I would see a thread full of posts of people actually admitting that Skyrim was crap. The voodoo rays from the marketing monster must be wearing off.

As obvious as it may sound, the most vital element for an RPG game (and we are chiefly talking about RPGs here) is to make the gamer feel as peronally involved in the world as possible, allowing as much freedom as possible in the process. Skyrim does not do this, as Skyrim offers a great big massive world full of repetative side quests that grow to feel meaningless very quickly. ME tries to make the gamer feel involved with the story telling through identification with the various characters in the game. Unfortunately the characters are all fa66ots and the action element of the game gets repetitive after a while. Even when the characters aren't all gaylords and the story telling is quite sophisticated, the Witcher series offers proof that story telling is not a primary factor in a great RPG games. Although these are good games, the rigid structure and clunky limitations of the Witcher game worlds result in the game failing really to hit the spot offering the kind of rare immersion which a gamer is craving for. Unlike reading books or watching movies, gaming is an interactive past-time and the more of a feeling of interaction that it offers the end user, the better it works.

For example, the Gothic series of games (1-3) and Risen 1, offer very basic but interesting story telling with generally 2 dimensional, yet appealing characters. The magic formula is that you are interested in the unfolding of the story and the characters within the world, yet not overwhelmed by it all. Interested enough to start making your own explorations into the world and attempting to get to know more in game characters for your own reasons. When you really start playing the game with these kind of motivations (i.e. because you want to and not because the game is saying that you must), then the story starts to unfold in your own head as you consider all the possibilites, start piecing together and idea of what is going on, and experiencing the benefits or pitfalls of the outcomes of a genuinely open world gaming experience and how totally coincidental and spontaneous decisions and actions can influence the course of the game.....or at least seem like they do!

[james888]

I love to read books and game. I don't recommend trying them both at the same time. Believe it or not, it is really hard.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by james888

I love to read books and game. I don't recommend trying them both at the same time. Believe it or not, it is really hard.

OMG!! Have to try that. Just because I've played while watching a movie, and read while watching a movie.

I do read most of the books in the ES series tho, does it count?

[BumbleBee]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

Let's see if I can make my point clear. I love stories, good stories as much as audiophiles love listening to music. So I read a lot of books.

Saying that X game has good story, characters, etc is like claiming you like music and you listen it on Youtube. Simply no. With Mass Effect and any other game for that matter, story is just a half-baked rehash or just plain rip-off of a better story, probably written 30+ years ago. Just go read it!

To me the only thing that makes a game story good (more like pasable) is the way it's fed to me. ME does it as if it was a movie, a bad movie and movies themselves are already bad enough.

HL2, Skyrim and a bunch of others don't feed you the story as if it was a movie, they let you be part of it and learn about the lore and story like you would in real life, by interacting with the world.

you create a character. you can interact with the environment. there is a codex with a lot of lore. planets are like villages in Skyrim. you have a dialog wheel that has more depth and consequences to your actions. camera is more cinematic. you can romance. you can command your team. the combat is cover based and feels good. the voice acting is great. sound track is great. the characters are great.

the story in Skyrim isn't good. the characters are forgettable. the voice acting is poor. sound track is repetitive. the combat in The Elder Scrolls games has always been floaty.

if your into min-maxing or exploration.. if those are hooks for you. go play an MMO.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by BumbleBee

you create a character. you can interact with the environment. there is a codex with a lot of lore. planets are like villages in Skyrim. you have a dialog wheel that has more depth and consequences to your actions. camera is more cinematic. you can romance. you can command your team. the combat is cover based and feels good. the voice acting is great. sound track is great. the characters are great.

the story in Skyrim isn't good. the characters are forgettable. the voice acting is poor. sound track is repetitive. the combat in The Elder Scrolls games has always been floaty.

if your into min-maxing or exploration.. if those are hooks for you. go play an MMO.

How many times do I have to say that I don't agree with that? I don't know about 2 or 3, but Mass Effect 1 was definitely NOT like you say. Skyrim is NOT like you say either.

In ME you can't interact with the environment at all. I can count the number of people you can interact with (besides your crew) with one of my hands. It does not have consequences either, unless they are part of the main storyline. Every sidequest is just for "money grabbing" or gear, there's 0 story to side quest and they are all boring and repetitive. You can't have a place (places) which are yours, to store your things or where you can showcase whatever things you want. A place you can personalize with trophies. You can't create anything. You can't choose from dozens of companions with different characteristics, only the 5 you are ASSIGNED by the game, and they'll form part of your crew even if you don't like them (which I didn't except for Liara).

EDIT: But tbh one of the worst things in ME that really kills it is that they choose the main character for you. even if you createit, you are Shepard or the world assumes you are anyway and you can only choose from a bunch of lame background options full of cliches that suposedly define your character. That's rubbish, I choose who I am and I don't need lame options conceived by some guy in a cubicule in the other side of the planet to tell me who I am. I choose and I use my imagination. That's why ES and even HL are great.

[INSTG8R]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

How many times do I have to say that I don't agree with that? I don't know about 2 or 3, but Mass Effect 1 was definitely NOT like you say. Skyrim is NOT like you say either.

In ME you can't interact with the environment at all. I can count the number of people you can interact with (besides your crew) with one of my hands. It does not have consequences either, unless they are part of the main storyline. Every sidequest is just for "money grabbing" or gear, there's 0 story to side quest and they are all boring and repetitive. You can't have a place (places) which are yours, to store your things or where you can showcase whatever things you want. A place you can personalize with trophies. You can't create anything. You can't choose from dozens of companions with different characteristics, only the 5 you are ASSIGNED by the game, and they'll form part of your crew even if you don't like them (which I didn't except for Liara).

EDIT: But tbh one of the worst things in ME that really kills it is that they choose the main character for you. even if you createit, you are Shepard or the world assumes you are anyway and you can only choose from a bunch of lame background options full of cliches that suposedly define your character. That's rubbish, I choose who I am and I don't need lame options conceived by some guy in a cubicule in the other side of the planet to tell me who I am. I choose and I use my imagination. That's why ES and even HL are great.

I have to say because you haven't played any further than the first. You would be VERY surprised at how many of those "side quests" and the characters you met you thought were insignificant suddenly became important again in 3. As I said before the amount of people I came across in ME3 that even I thought were insignificant reappeared because I saved/helped them. Some I had to think hard about who they were(they certainly remembered me for what I had done) The Rachni example I gave originally is still relevant there. Because I "saved" her WAY back in the 1st she played a significant role in my ME3 world. Meet anybody from Morrowmind in Skyrim?

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by INSTG8R

I have to say because you haven't played any further than the first. You would be VERY surprised at how many of those "side quests" and the characters you met you thought were insignificant suddenly became important again in 3. As I said before the amount of people I came across in ME3 that even I thought were insignificant reappeared because I saved/helped them. Some I had to think hard about who they were(they certainly remembered me for what I had done) The Rachni example I gave originally is still relevant there. Because I "saved" her WAY back in the 1st she played a significant role in my ME3 world. Meet anybody from Morrowmind in Skyrim?

Then ME3 might be good ME1 wasn't plain and simple, I'm talking about Mass Effect, not 2 or 3. I could say 20 things you can do in Morrowind and Skyrim that you can't in ME, but what's the point.

Anyway that's not interaction: I save him or not, so appears or not is not interaction. Interaction would be if you can kill him at any point just because you want and then you would deal with consequences: like going to hail, expelled from a guild or hatred in that place or whatever. Does that happen in ME3? Because in 1 it's a definite no no. Being able to choose A or B, so X or Y happen is not real interaction, it's just activating a switch.

And actually yes you meet quite a lot of people from previous games in Skyrim: M'aiq the Liar, Lucien Lachance, Umbra, not to mention the various Daedra Princes. Obviously they don't know you, because you are not the same person.

[BumbleBee]

a big sword feels like a stick that has 2 animations. it doesn't feel good when you make contact. you wave it several times at enemy legs until they ragdoll. the critical hits are automatic and can be annoying when you just want to trek through a dungeon. the same battle music. the same voice actor. the follower system wasn't done well so you end up not using them because they get in your way.

the combat in Fallout is different because your dealing with mostly projectile weapons and you have to manually trigger VATS.

if some characters died in Mass Effect they are not even in Mass Effect 2 or 3. we're talking about decisions people made 5 years ago. in Mass Effect 2 your Shepard can die and if you try to import that save in Mass Effect 3 you have to start a new character.

when you become a Spectre in Mass Effect and Captain Anderson is like you should check out these three planets. if you don't rescue Liara first she has extra dialog when you meet her. she says something like "hello? are you a hallucination? what took you so long" the game even recognizes that lol

THAT'S AWESOME.

in Skyrim it's like yeah, yeah the world can wait.

[Kwod]

Originally Posted by james888

I tried playing new vegas also, but didn't get into it enough at the beginning to even finish.

Try playing on hardest diff in hardcore mode.....it changes everything, it changes the rate you level up, the cash and equipment you have/can buy, and justifies the use of the "now" very expensive health and perk upgrades from New Vegas Medical.