Does 120hz give FPS gamers online an advantage? if the game supports 120 fps

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by Kreij

Technically, No. You (and the other BF3 players) already had the skill, a better frame rate just allowed for you to use that skill more effectivley. Same with any hardware.
The monitor (or FPS increase) didn't improve your skill ... at all.

That being said, having greater response and higher accuracy from your hardware is always an advantage when gaming if you're good enough to take advantage of it.

One could argue that by allowing to use the skill more effectively, the FPS improved our skill because of more effective practice.

[Aquinus]

Originally Posted by Kreij

That being said, having greater response and higher accuracy from your hardware is always an advantage when gaming if you're good enough to take advantage of it.

That's why by the time your brain even has received the information from any given frame, on a 120hz monitor, (8.3ms between frames) and lets assume your reaction time is better than the average person, say 100ms (I think average is something like 150-200ms, I need to find some sources on that one though). By the time your brain even processes that first frame, your computer has already displayed the next 12 frames (or 20-25 if you're an "average human")! Sorry, but frame rate isn't going to help a typical non-genetically enhanced human being.

Oh yeah, that's not including the time it takes to tell the muscles in your arm and hand to move the mouse or press some keys.

The only thing that I can see a 120hz display helping with is reduced ghosting and providing a more fluid picture for rapidly changing events and that only helps you if you can decipher everything going on at any given moment.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by Aquinus

That's why by the time your brain even has received the information from any given frame, on a 120hz monitor, (8.3ms between frames) and lets assume your reaction time is better than the average person, say 100ms (I think average is something like 150-200ms, I need to find some sources on that one though). By the time your brain even processes that first frame, your computer has already displayed the next 12 frames (or 20-25 if you're an "average human")! Sorry, but frame rate isn't going to help a typical non-genetically enhanced human being.

Oh yeah, that's not including the time it takes to tell the muscles in your arm and hand to move the mouse or press some keys.

The only thing that I can see a 120hz display helping with is reduced ghosting and providing a more fluid picture for rapidly changing events and that only helps you if you can decipher everything going on at any given moment.

Play BF3 at 30 FPS and then play it at 60 FPS and tell me the same. Never mind 120FPS.

[3870x2]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Play BF3 at 30 FPS and then play it at 60 FPS and tell me the same. Never mind 120FPS.

30 to 60 will make a huge difference.

I cant say that 60 to 120 would make nearly as much of a difference, but I could see it doing some good.

I remember seeing 75 back when I had a CRT, and it was very noticeable.

[qubit]

Originally Posted by Aquinus

That's why by the time your brain even has received the information from any given frame, on a 120hz monitor, (8.3ms between frames) and lets assume your reaction time is better than the average person, say 100ms (I think average is something like 150-200ms, I need to find some sources on that one though). By the time your brain even processes that first frame, your computer has already displayed the next 12 frames (or 20-25 if you're an "average human")! Sorry, but frame rate isn't going to help a typical non-genetically enhanced human being.

Oh yeah, that's not including the time it takes to tell the muscles in your arm and hand to move the mouse or press some keys.

The only thing that I can see a 120hz display helping with is reduced ghosting and providing a more fluid picture for rapidly changing events and that only helps you if you can decipher everything going on at any given moment.

You can try figuring it out by working out all those milliseconds and concluding that it doesn't help, but you need to actually try it to see the benefit. Twice the temporal resolution really does make a difference to your gameplay. Of course, your system must be able to animate at 120fps too, or it's a bit wasted. Another positive effect of this, is that if the system drops a few frames, so goes down to 100 or even 90 fps, then the judders aren't nearly as noticeable as on a 60Hz monitor, because they're so much smaller and happening at a much higher frequency already.

I have a 120Hz monitor and will vouch for this.

[newconroer]

Show me the top one hundred shooter players in any given game and have them all use CRT vs LED at 60 or 120 hz and they'll be no discernable pattern in their performance.

120hz is mainly useful for 3d gaming. The percentile of people that can notice the difference visually between 120 and 60 is even less than that of 24 to 60 and it depends on the rendering engine in question and the software being displayed.

I find that most people convince themselves there's a difference so they can justify spending the money on multiple high end GPUs and spiffy 'backlit LED' 3d monitors alongside.

Sounds almost like you're hinting at suggestion on whether you should buy one?
If so you should be more worried about other pertinent factors.



Having a VG278 as well, I can attest that 60hz on my 30" at 1600p is still more enjoyable than having a handful of games running true 120 on the 27"

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by newconroer

Show me the top one hundred shooter players in any given game and have them all use CRT vs LED at 60 or 120 hz and they'll be no discernable pattern in their performance.

120hz is mainly useful for 3d gaming. The percentile of people that can notice the difference visually between 120 and 60 is even less than that of 24 to 60 and it depends on the rendering engine in question and the software being displayed.

I find that most people convince themselves there's a difference so they can justify spending the money on multiple high end GPUs and spiffy 'backlit LED' 3d monitors alongside.

Sounds almost like you're hinting at suggestion on whether you should buy one?
If so you should be more worried about other pertinent factors.



Having a VG278 as well, I can attest that 60hz on my 30" at 1600p is still more enjoyable than having a handful of games running true 120 on the 27"

Yeah because pro gamers didn't stick with CRT's well into the LCD era because they loved lugging around 1337 CRT's.

[Live OR Die]

No its more people how use vsync give there selfs a disadvantage, I play a lot of FPS and also live with the Tearing for more smooth movement and i use a 120hz screen and pop 200+ frames.

[johnnyfiive]

Originally Posted by Phusius

and the person is able to run it at 120 fps, does that person get an advantage in FPS games online?

My answer would be... it depends on the game. Fast paced FPS games, it really does help. Games like Quake (any of them), TF2, Tribes Ascend, CoD series, etc. When I was playing quakelive on a regular basis, it helped my overall accuracy about 5-6%. Most notably, it helped my lightning gun percentage a good 6-8%. 30-32% to 35-40%.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by johnnyfiive

My answer would be... it depends on the game. Fast paced FPS games, it really does help. Games like Quake (any of them), TF2, Tribes Ascend, CoD series, etc. When I was playing quakelive on a regular basis, it helped my overall accuracy about 5-6%. Most notably, it helped my lightning gun percentage a good 6-8%. 30-32% to 35-40%.

Quake.......when I was playing Quake 3 I was if I may say epic. Never was really that good at a game before or since. Quake 3 and TheMailman were one.

[phanbuey]

Originally Posted by Aquinus

That's why by the time your brain even has received the information from any given frame, on a 120hz monitor, (8.3ms between frames) and lets assume your reaction time is better than the average person, say 100ms (I think average is something like 150-200ms, I need to find some sources on that one though). By the time your brain even processes that first frame, your computer has already displayed the next 12 frames (or 20-25 if you're an "average human")! Sorry, but frame rate isn't going to help a typical non-genetically enhanced human being.

Oh yeah, that's not including the time it takes to tell the muscles in your arm and hand to move the mouse or press some keys.

The only thing that I can see a 120hz display helping with is reduced ghosting and providing a more fluid picture for rapidly changing events and that only helps you if you can decipher everything going on at any given moment.

See you're right - so if I have the same reaction time as an average human, but i just got the first frame 8.3ms faster than the guy next to me, i have that extra time to react. He has to wait 8.3ms before he can even start to react.

It is precicely because you're the bottleneck that you need to be constantly fed ahead of time, since the speed of the game depends entirely on you.

Now he can compensate for that 8.3ms with skill and and reflexes, but it is harder. Also if i am in mid aim, and i am trying to intersect my crosshairs with the other guys face, and I get notice 8.3ms earlier that i have reached my target, I will be less likely to overshoot and my accuracy will increase. So not only do i have more time to react, but also better accuracy, and that is an advantage.

I also have more information regarding the speed and pattern of motion - i have double the datapoints with which to predict a moving target, and any patterns with which it moves. All of these things added up make a noticeable difference. And yes, any pro FPS gamer will tell you how they cried when they went to LCD.

[de.das.dude]

NO NO NO. anything above 30-40fps your eye or brain cant detect.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by de.das.dude

NO NO NO. anything above 30-40fps your eye or brain cant detect.

Maybe your brain.

[phanbuey]

Originally Posted by de.das.dude

NO NO NO. anything above 30-40fps your eye or brain cant detect.

That is absolute nonsense.

[qubit]

I "can't detect" anything above 20fps, but no matter.

[Easy Rhino]

Originally Posted by Aquinus

Oh yeah, that's not including the time it takes to tell the muscles in your arm and hand to move the mouse or press some keys.

just a note that the time it takes for your brain to tell any muscle in your body to move is not currently measurable.

[Drone]

Originally Posted by de.das.dude

NO NO NO. anything above 30-40fps your eye or brain cant detect.

If you sit in pitch black room in absolute darkness and then suddenly for 1/100th of a second light turns on and off would you see it? I know I would see it. Some trained pilots can identify 200 fps.

[erocker]

Originally Posted by Drone

If you sit in pitch black room in absolute darkness and then suddenly for 1/100th of a second light turns on and off would you see it? I know I would see it. Some trained pilots can identify 200 fps.

Very good example.

[D007]

I lol.. Been playing games since games were games.. Talking pong here.. It is noticeable.. A drop from 60 to 50 IS noticeable.. Once you learn how to perceive 120 hz.. The drop to 60 is noticeable as well.. Try it yourself if you really want to know. Speculation doesn't cut it.. Go play at 120, then play the same game at 60.. Tell me you don't see it.. I'd have to call shenanigans though..

[qubit]

Originally Posted by D007

I lol.. Been playing games since games were games.. Talking pong here.. It is noticeable.. A drop from 60 to 50 IS noticeable.. Once you learn how to perceive 120 hz.. The drop to 60 is noticeable as well.. Try it yourself if you really want to know. Speculation doesn't cut it.. Go play at 120, then play the same game at 60.. Tell me you don't see it.. I'd have to call shenanigans though..

Yup, of course you can see it: 50fps on 60Hz = judder, since frames are being dropped. Annoying, uneven judder at that.

Of course driving a 60Hz screen at 60fps will of course look super smooth. However, what do you think happens if you drive a 120Hz screen with a 120Hz video signal, but with 60fps animation? (You can do this in nvidia's latest drivers.)

You get judder too, only now that it's at 60Hz, you perceive it as a doubled picture instead, smoothly animated! And the faster the motion is the more obviously doubled the image is. This perception is accurate too, because doing this actually means that the motion stops every other frame, since it's shown twice and that's exactly what you see.

[D007]

Originally Posted by qubit

Yup, of course you can see it: 50fps on 60Hz = judder, since frames are being dropped. Annoying, uneven judder at that.

Of course driving a 60Hz screen at 60fps will of course look super smooth. However, what do you think happens if you drive a 120Hz screen at 60fps? (You can do this in nvidia's latest drivers.)

You get judder too, only now that it's at 60Hz, you perceive it as a doubled picture instead, smoothly animated! And the faster the motion is the more obviously doubled the image is. This perception is accurate too, because doing this actually means that the motion stops every other frame, since it's shown twice and that's exactly what you see.

I feel a little smarter after reading this...

[phanbuey]

your brain doesn't work in FPS, it is constantly taking in light data, there is no real FPS limit that you intake, there is a certain FPS that looks like smooth motion. But you are constantly taking in input so you see a change right away, it just takes those ms to register.

Thats why 120 FPS is more about control input and reaction times than it is about 'smoothness'.

[cmaxvt]

Plain and simple, YES, it is the biggest upgrade to First Person Shooter gaming you will ever make. If you have the power to do it (big strong GPU, a good setup, etc) you will notice a massive amount of improvement in accuracy, speed, etc. There is a massive improvement in how well the game plays.

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by Kreij

That being said, having greater response and higher accuracy from your hardware is always an advantage when gaming if you're good enough to take advantage of it.

Hrm. I agree with you, but...


We have differnt input devices, mice, monitors, keyboards, etc..and all of these "refresh" data with different intervals.


I play Bf3 right now on a 60 Hz, 2560x1600 monitor, and I literally feel a difference all the way up to over 120 FPS.

My mouse polls at 1000 Hz.

My keyboard @ 125 Hz.

My screen @ 60 Hz.


Do the math, so that all those refresh rates sync up, and you have "The SECRET NUMBER OF GAMING LIFE".

THen, find out the user's "Hz", and then match that up to the periphrials...


DO you get where I am going here?


NOw, does a 120 Hz monitor make a differnece?


YES!!! It changes that special number!!!

It does NOT matter who is viewing it!

It does NOT matter where your "EYE" can perceive that difference.

It matters in that it changes the sync'd polling rate between all devices!!!


Now ,tell me what marketing dude has said anything remotely similar, and point me in the direction of that company, so I can buy their stuff, since they get "it".

[phanbuey]

Originally Posted by cadaveca

Hrm. I agree with you, but...


We have differnt input devices, mice, monitors, keyboards, etc..and all fo these "refresh" data with different intervals.


I play Bf3 right now on a 60 Hz, 2560x1600 monitor, and I literally feel a difference all the way up to over 120 FPS.

My mouse polls at 1000 Hz.

My keyboard @ 125 Hz.

My screen @ 60 Hz.


Do the math, so that all those refresh rates sync up, and you have "The SECRET NUMBER OF GAMING LIFE".

THen, find out the user's "Hz", and then match that up to the periphrials...


DO you get where I am going here?


NOw, does a 120 Hz monitor make a differnece?


YES!!! It changes that special number!!!

except all of you devices go to a central hub that does the processing... so its is not like they need to 'sync' up as if they were in a chain. Also your screen gets input from the hub at maximum speed, it is limited only by what it can display, irrespective of the other device polling speeds (hence benchmarks rendering 100+fps on a 60hz screen, and games responding at 100FPS on a 60 Hz screen).

The input devices I agree with, but again - it is a hub and spoke model, so your keyboard will not affect your mouse.