Next generation cards

[Darkleoco]

Does anyone else feel like the next generation of cards will hardly be necessary? Except for a handful of games and multi-monitor setups there is nothing that will even stress a decent SLI/crossfire setup from the 6xxx/5xx generations let alone the current 7xxx/6xx generations. Does it seem to anyone else that either:
1. PC hardware simply evolves too quickly for graphics too match.
2. SLI/Crossfire setups are becoming a thing of the past for standard 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 displays.
3. Nvidia and AMD have said fuck it and love releasing half assed generations of cards for horrendously marked up prices.

Randomly had the urge to get opinions on this while thinking about what my Crossfire 6950 setup at home is capable of and how even that is overkill for most games.

[Capitan Harlock]

well all depends on what people need for is personal purpose,if you follow the benchmarks and you wanna have the same result with a high resolution is your problem,but the question is you really need it? for me go much higher than a 27" with 2560 x 1440 is crazy if you don really need it ,if you have the money to invest in a triple monitor setup good for you but 1 big screen for me is better,so for now with my 6950 with 1920x1080 im ok,i need only to change cpu ,mobo and ram for have a boost and this actual generation continue to looks like a performance marketing solution for playing the famous battlefield 3 ( is not an attack but if you look aroud that is).

[Yo_Wattup]

Guild wars 2, Borderlands 2, and upcoming game Planetside 2. GTX 680 cant handle them. We need better vid cards.

[Lionheart]

Originally Posted by Yo_Wattup

Guild wars 2, Borderlands 2, and upcoming game Planetside 2. GTX 680 cant handle them. We need better vid cards.

You trolling or.........

[Darkleoco]

Originally Posted by Yo_Wattup

Guild wars 2, Borderlands 2, and upcoming game Planetside 2. GTX 680 cant handle them. We need better vid cards.

Guess I have to add no trolls to the OP or at least tell them to troll better. Borderlands 2 can be maxed out by even a single 6950 at least try to not make yourself look slightly believable when trolling.

[Sasqui]

<- see sys specs... I'm running a 5870 and haven't played a game yet where the graphics weren't acceptable (to me). Always at 1920x1200 and at least 4xAA... Then again, I don't play a lot.

What game would bring my system to it's knees... say on 4xAA? Any with a demo version available?

[Phusius]

I am using a GTX 660 non-ti right now, and honestly it is fine for me. Kind of glad my 7970 died on me, now I can enjoy Adaptive Vsync and FXAA.

[Yo_Wattup]

Originally Posted by Lionheart

You trolling or.........

Originally Posted by Darkleoco

Guess I have to add no trolls to the OP or at least tell them to troll better. Borderlands 2 can be maxed out by even a single 6950 at least try to not make yourself look slightly believable when trolling.

At 1600p? I should make myself clearer, by 'handling' I meant play at 60fps. No need to get abusive, this is just my opinion guys. By the way, on max settings, my dual 6950s get 50fps in broderlands 2... I wouldn't call that ideal. Maybe my expectations are higher than others.

[Darkleoco]

Originally Posted by Yo_Wattup

At 1600p? I should make myself clearer, by 'handling' I meant play at 60fps. No need to get abusive, this is just my opinion guys. By the way, on max settings, my dual 6950s get 50fps in broderlands 2... I wouldn't call that ideal. Maybe my expectations are higher than others.

1. Make yourself clearer
2. Read the OP as I clearly state I am talking about 1080p and 1200p not 1600p.

also try going past 6970 clocks then you will have your 60 fps

I run 940/1400 on my crossfire 6950's.

Originally Posted by Phusius

I am using a GTX 660 non-ti right now, and honestly it is fine for me. Kind of glad my 7970 died on me, now I can enjoy Adaptive Vsync and FXAA.

Why did it die? Did you RMA it?

[KainXS]

when I look at who is releasing half assed cards I look at nvidia, they seem to have had the damn complete GK100 and don't seem to want to release it because AMD does not have a card to even compete with it, not to mention at its rumored price point not many people would probably buy it.

To me it does not seem like PC hardware is evolving as fast it used to, its slowing down on all fronts thanks to tablets and cell phones, not to mention most game development is still based around consoles, of course modern hardware seems overpowered when the games themselves are optimized for 7800's and X1800's, after a new wave of consoles come out, development will be renewed as they will be using hardware more similar to ours.

I have to agree that SLI/Crossfire is becoming a thing to the past though and yes your 6950 is still a damn good card(even not in Crossfire)

Originally Posted by Phusius

I am using a GTX 660 non-ti right now, and honestly it is fine for me. Kind of glad my 7970 died on me, now I can enjoy Adaptive Vsync and FXAA.

That sucks sorry to hear that . . . . . . . not somethin to be glad about

[Crap Daddy]

Originally Posted by Darkleoco

Does anyone else feel like the next generation of cards will hardly be necessary? Except for a handful of games and multi-monitor setups there is nothing that will even stress a decent SLI/crossfire setup from the 6xxx/5xx generations let alone the current 7xxx/6xx generations. Does it seem to anyone else that either:
1. PC hardware simply evolves too quickly for graphics too match.
2. SLI/Crossfire setups are becoming a thing of the past for standard 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 displays.
3. Nvidia and AMD have said fuck it and love releasing half assed generations of cards for horrendously marked up prices.

Randomly had the urge to get opinions on this while thinking about what my Crossfire 6950 setup at home is capable of and how even that is overkill for most games.

I share your opinion. In fact this current gen of cards was hardly necessary for the games released this year. Throw in the absurd launch prices for these cards and there is not one single reason to upgrade from a decent HD6000 or GTX500 cards. I'm talking here even for one card setups let alone CF or SLI.

[Frag Maniac]

Originally Posted by Darkleoco

Does anyone else feel like the next generation of cards will hardly be necessary?

You may not be thinking in terms of how currently games are somewhat limited by the atrocious lack of power in present console systems. LOTS of games are made on console and ported to PC. They have to dumb them down to fit the cash cow systems that drive 80% the gaming industry. Hopefully it will get better if the 720 and PS4 get fairly decent 7000 series GPUs like the rumors have indicated.

Crysis and Metro are two examples of game series who's engines had to be re-tooled to adapt to the stagnant 360 and PS3. If MS and Sony wouldn't be so God damned greedy by expecting a ten year lifespan out of their console systems, it wouldn't be so bad. IMO console systems should be slated for a 5-7 year span tops.

To be successful in game development you have to reach a broad audience, not just PC. Few dev teams dare brave PC exclusive releases anymore, there's just not much money in it. That means they are at the mercy of what the console systems can handle, unless they want to have completely separate development for console and PC, and not many do that anymore. The ones that do are typically big dev/pub teams, and even then they often wait several months to a year or more after the console version to release the PC versions, esp if they have all those bells and whistles you want.

I know what you mean though. I often look at the state of the gaming industry and wonder how PC gaming even survives. All this elaborate hardware, yet so few games that can really make use of it. It's a big part of the reason I've survived on a mere GTS 250 1GB for nearly 2 years now.

Console system manufacturers have somewhat hijacked the gaming industry and left PC hurting. IMO it's up to them to raise their hardware standards substantially so at least the software end of gaming is more useful industry wide. I actually think blurring the line more between console and PC will help more than hurt PC gaming.

It will probably stimulate job growth at the development end too, and spark more competitive innovation in game design. It might even help the economy some. This is a BIG industry. Better games means more people buying games and hardware, rather than boycotting, pirating and sitting on the same hardware for years.

I'd also like to see more hardware manufacturers step up and offer transferable warranties like EVGA does. It would stimulate more recycling and upgrading and probably even lessen the e-waste problem some.

[WhiteNoise]

I was running CF 6970's for quite awhile and I was very happy with them. Now my single 6970 does play everything well but there are plenty of games out that tax my card if I play with ALL game settings completely maxed out. The 7 series is a nice boost and I'd buy a 7970 to replace my 6970 in a second if I wasn't waiting for the 8 series to release. (When are they releasing any one know?)

[WhiteNoise]

I should add that I don't want a new console every 5 years. With how much these systems cost and being the type of gamer that must own both (sony/microsoft systems) I really don't want to have to spend $1k or so every 5 years. I mean I already build a new PC every 2-3 years.

I like the idea of the console hanging around for 7+ years. Games always kinda blow when a console first releases but fast forward 5 years and the games become epic as the devs really learn how to eek out every drop of power from the consoles.

What I don't like about consoles is how they hold the PC hardware/gaming back.

[lilhasselhoffer]

Why care?

Nvidea and AMD only generally release something worthwhile two or three iterations into a new fabrication process. Anyone else remember that 4xxx beat the pants off of 3xxx, 5xxx was good and toasty, but 6xxx improved every single metric and even allowed some 6950s to unlock to a 6970?


Following the course of that logic, the 7xxx will incrementally improve over the 6xxx because of the new manufacturing tech. The real tangible improvements will be the 8xxx series, which is what I'm looking forward to seeing. Considering that new Nvidea GPUs are coming out still, the likelihood of seeing a new generation from AMD in the near future is...less than likely...


Nvidea is a more complex beast. The 2xx and 3xx series were absolute pigs. The 4xx series did very well, in my opinion of course. The 5xx series brought some good new ideas to the table, but you paid with insane heat and a less functional (for gamers, not computational enthusiasts) card than competing offerings. The 6xx is a return to form, and an excellent choice if you're in the market right now. At the time though, pricing and the fact that the cards seem to be holding back make it difficult to want to spend any money on any options.


Waffling, yeah. I have 6950s in my current rigs. Excellent for the, now declining, price point. They use a bit more power, but outstrip consoles in so many ways that it isn't funny. Consoles make development easier, and are a way to "make sure" that games earn money. They're a necessary evil, and so is the nature of the ever degrading comparative performance to the PC. That said, we've reached the point where any optimization by consoles is easily trumped by brute force on the PC. I can't see any reason to buy either Nvidea or AMD products until the situation resolves itself.


-Barring building new systems of course.-

[3870x2]

Originally Posted by Darkleoco

Does anyone else feel like the next generation of cards will hardly be necessary? Except for a handful of games and multi-monitor setups there is nothing that will even stress a decent SLI/crossfire setup from the 6xxx/5xx generations let alone the current 7xxx/6xx generations. Does it seem to anyone else that either:
1. PC hardware simply evolves too quickly for graphics too match.
2. SLI/Crossfire setups are becoming a thing of the past for standard 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 displays.
3. Nvidia and AMD have said fuck it and love releasing half assed generations of cards for horrendously marked up prices.

Randomly had the urge to get opinions on this while thinking about what my Crossfire 6950 setup at home is capable of and how even that is overkill for most games.

1. Not always ( IE Cryengine). I think this is akin to the fact that graphics options move with the current generation of consoles.
3. I think that even though graphics technology is moving slow, they still want to move forward with their own technologies. This is perfect for enthusiasts, and makes price per performance cards an amazing value.

[AlienIsGOD]

Originally Posted by lilhasselhoffer

the likelihood of seeing a new generation from AMD in the near future is...less than likely...

except for the fact that every Dec they prepare the new generation of cards.

[erocker]

Originally Posted by Yo_Wattup

Guild wars 2, Borderlands 2, and upcoming game Planetside 2. GTX 680 cant handle them. We need better vid cards.

I can play all of these titles at 2560x1440, max settings and above 60fps with a 7970. Your info is wrong.

[lilhasselhoffer]

Originally Posted by AlienIsGOD

except for the fact that every Dec they prepare the new generation of cards.

June 16th 2008 - HD 4000 cards introduced
September 10th 2009 - HD 5000 cards introduced
October 22nd 2010 - HD 6000 cards introduced
December 22nd, 2011 - HD 7000 cards introduced

Time - 15, 13, and 14 months between new card releases. There is no indication that the 8xxx series can be developed and released in 12 months, when their average development time for the last three generations in 14 months. December 22nd 2011-> February 2013 for HD 8000 series. That's what I'm assuming, though a Holiday season release would make fiscal sense.

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like this holiday season won't be blessed with a plethora of new cards to whet our appetites... Gift cards anyone?

[FreedomEclipse]

as sad as the current state of PC gaming is with almost every title being a bastardized console port. If I was going to get an 8xxx series card, I would be getting it purely for the reason that its more power efficient, If it performs like a total beast then that would also be a huge bonus.

the only potential hurdle i see here is the price. when 7970's were released, the prices were very very excessive. Its only recently that theyve dropped to more acceptable levels. Here in the UK they are £300-330 which isnt bad at all as I bought my 6970s for roughly around the same price.

Unfortunately Ive had it with the AMD driver team so the 8xxx has to be ridiculously good with an amazing bang for buck value/cost ratio to make me even consider sticking with an AMD GPU.

I'll be keeping an eye on the 8xxx series but Id be hanging back a little and waiting to see what Nvidia's answer to the 8xxx series is.

[Darkleoco]

So currently im trying to decide whether I should sell my 6950's and my HAF-X so that I can downsize to a slightly less powerful 680/7970 setup and a smaller case (to potentially bring my desktop to school with me) or am I best just keeping the full setup at home for the power and cooling and counting on my laptop's 660m to handle most new games for me at 1080p?

The 660m holds up remarkably well in Skyrim but kind of gets shit on by BF3

[Kreij]

It's not the consoles that are holding us back.
It's the !@#$ monitor manufacturers.

My monitor is 4 MP (2560x1600) and it's years old. It's still the highest resolution you can get on the consumer market.
My camera is 12.3 MP and it's years old too (Nikon D300 released in 2007).
Why can't I get a monitor to display my camera images natively that I've been taking since 2007 ?!?!?

I want a 5120 x 3200 monitor, and I want it NOW !! (RANT RAVE STOMP FUME FUSS DROOL)

On Topic : My pair of 6970s run everything fantastic, which is why I decided to skip the 7000 series and maybe the 8000 series unless something really amazing comes along.

[alwayssts]

Originally Posted by Darkleoco

So currently im trying to decide whether I should sell my 6950's and my HAF-X so that I can downsize to a slightly less powerful 680/7970 setup and a smaller case (to potentially bring my desktop to school with me) or am I best just keeping the full setup at home for the power and cooling and counting on my laptop's 660m to handle most new games for me at 1080p?

The 660m holds up remarkably well in Skyrim but kind of gets shit on by BF3

The conclusion I came to when I built my current setup is this:

1. Everything is going to be based around 1080p for a long damn time. Be that because of display technology prices, next-gen consoles, no real successor to blu-ray, broadcast tv being stuck at 720p/1080i (with perhaps h.265 coming next year 1080p may come at some point), typical internet bandwidth for realistic streaming at a reasonable bitrate ect ect ect. Yes cards will get better and higher rez (2560x1600)/multi-monitor will get pushed in the pc space to take advantage of that, but the line is going to be blurred for a really long time at 1080p. Just like mobile devices are going to be stuck at 720p. It's a fundamental saturation point because of realistic use and visual acuity.

2. Starting with cards from the 560ti/6870 gen, we are hit a point where midrange cards will handle 1080p gaming for a long damn time at ~30fps because of looming next-gen consoles and the fact engines/ip are designed with them in mind. With the 28nm gen, similar size chips will do 60fps. Granted you're essentially stuck high or low with current options, but prices will fall on the later when AMD releases a similar part to gk104. The same way 1080p is trickling down, 2560 and 4k (or 3x ~1080p multi-monitor) is only one class above, or one generation/process shrink away from being in that class.

3. The foreseeable future is not about performance, it is about form factor and convergence. You don't have to like it, but you need to realize it. As we go forward to 20nm, an entry-level graphics chip (or decent laptop with discrete graphics) will be fine for good 1080p gaming on it's own or output to a monitor/tv, and many regular cards will probably be mostly half-height and geared towards short htpc/itx cases. By 14nm we're talking that level of performance in a CPU; NUC-like form-factors and what-not will become the norm. By the time we get past 1080p, and 2560/4k/8k actually reach most people, graphics cards capable of that fidelity will be available likely in the entry/mid-range/performance single-card market and continue trickling down as market saturation of those displays go up.


That's why I built an HTPC that can fit up to an ~10 inch card (ie anything that is not 680/7900-class) and use my tv (as cable television vs. the internet is while different, a correlated convergence.) I think when gk104's prices go down (when 8800 saturates the market) you're going to see a lot of people facing the mini-crisis you are realizing right now. How much PC do you really need? The answer (for most people) is a hell of a lot less than will be available. I think the small form-factor market is really going to boom next year, and only grow. It should be something you consider if you want some kind of portability and do not plan of having a PC setup that is multi-monitor.

[entropy13]

Originally Posted by Kreij

It's not the consoles that are holding us back.
It's the !@#$ monitor manufacturers.

How does 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 have more of a "holding back" effect than 1280x720 (consoles)?

[alwayssts]

Originally Posted by entropy13

How does 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 have more of a "holding back" effect than 1280x720 (consoles)?

Because every conceivable medium has adopted 1080p as their native resolution, including the consoles that will be with us for the next decade...not the ones from last decade. More than 50% of American households have a 1080p display. While it's certainly overkill, even tablets and phones are headed that direction.

720p will go away because ~4.5''/1ft (or what Apple would have you believe is the Retina's Acuity) does not scale. 1080p however is close-enough, and an adopted standard.


Just like the 16:9 aspect ratio itself, 1080p is a bastardized compromise that will be with us for a long time