Sony PlayStation 4 "Orbis" Kits Shipping to Developers, Powered by AMD A10 APU

[MxPhenom 216]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

I'm probably late, but doing 1080p @60 fps DEFINITELY requires 4x the power that 720p @30 fps needs. BigMack is absolutely right on that account.

A very different thing is that when running low resolutions some other parts (95% of times the CPU or DirectX draw calls...) become the bottleneck and hence you don't see 4x the performance at the lower resolution.

But magic does not happen on computing. If performance moving to higher res is not linear is because graphics cards have power to spare and because of that they do a better work at the higher res. On lower res or with low settings GPU resources stay unnused.

No it doesn't. maybe in our desktops, but developers with consoles are able to optimize it so well, and squeeze every bit of power out of the system to be able to do it.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

No it doesn't. maybe in our desktops, but developers with consoles are able to optimize it so well, and squeeze every bit of power out of the system to be able to do it.

It still requires 4x the power to run 1080p60 vs 720p30...

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

It still requires 4x the power to run 1080p60 vs 720p30...

I don't think he understands such a simple point... he and mailman are making the point more complex by drawing inherent implications for a hardware comparison and so then they get confused and say it's wrong.

But the issue of 1080p60 vs 720p30 is a very simple one of basic math and nothing more.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by BigMack70

I don't think he understands such a simple point... he and mailman are making the point more complex by drawing inherent implications for a hardware comparison and so then they get confused and say it's wrong.

But the issue of 1080p60 vs 720p30 is a very simple one of basic math and nothing more.

You said you didn't think the APU could do what Sony claims and went of quoting various websites about dedicated GPU's. What I said is how things are done today is VASTLY different then 7+ years ago and that an APU can in fact meet Sony's claim as its well beyond your "4x" number due to optimization and engineering.

[jmcslob]

OK Ok...
I think we should all get the effin point by now...
Apples to Apples it requires 4x the power to do 60fps @1080p than 30fps @720p
But it doesn't "Actually" take 4x the power because of architectural advancements and software development...

[Benetanegia]

Also @ Mailman

When you compare an HD6000/7000 or GTX600 to RSX/Xenos or they desktop counterparts and say they are Xx faster, 7 years of iptimizations are there too. The GPU in Trinity is X amount faster optimizations included, not excluded.

But ultimmately I have no doubt the PS4 will use dedicated GPU, so it's a moot point.

Originally Posted by jmcslob

But it doesn't "Actually" take 4x the power because of architectural advancements and software development...

Software has advanced for PS3 too tho. And "power" is intangible, but as a concept it will always actually require 4x the power. Now if we go by number of shader processors + clock frequency for example, yes less are probably required for the same as efficiency went up in these years, but like I said that's part of new generations being more "powerful".

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

You said you didn't think the APU could do what Sony claims and went of quoting various websites about dedicated GPU's. What I said is how things are done today is VASTLY different then 7+ years ago and that an APU can in fact meet Sony's claim as its well beyond your "4x" number due to optimization and engineering.

I think you just got upset that I picked on the wording of one of your posts

And my speculation that they can't do what they claim on an APU is just as good as yours that it is. You have conjecture about how well they might be able to optimize things in a console-specific way, and I have PC benchmarks showing it's crazy. Who's right? We'll find out in a couple years.

Console manufacturers aren't exactly known for their forthrightness about what their consoles can do (see: claims about 1080p this generation and claims about PS4 being able to do "4k" next generation...) so it's not exactly crazy to think that they're making deceptive claims here too...

[1d10t]

Originally Posted by Dos101

He's referring to the OtherOS feature that allowed you to install certain distro(s) of Linux iirc. It was advertised, then after that whole Geohot hacking thing with the PS3 Sony removed it with a firmware update, so some argues you can't remove an advertised feature like that. I agree, but some are more butthurt than others.

Owh...i get it.Yes,Sony did it since 3.70 firmware.they aware of some sort security flaws and mambo-jambo things that could exploit it's vulnerability.they change their EULA so that only Sony could read and banning inactive / shared PSN account.just think Sony as new Apple,but more girls in it

[MxPhenom 216]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

It still requires 4x the power to run 1080p60 vs 720p30...

technically yes.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

Also @ Mailman

When you compare an HD6000/7000 or GTX600 to RSX/Xenos or they desktop counterparts and say they are Xx faster, 7 years of iptimizations are there too. The GPU in Trinity is X amount faster optimizations included, not excluded.

But ultimmately I have no doubt the PS4 will use dedicated GPU, so it's a moot point.

No its more I was comparing the RSX to the APU they are using. He didn't/doesn't think the APU could do 60FPS in a console environment.

Wish you were here about 3 pages ago

Originally Posted by BigMack70

I think you just got upset that I picked on the wording of one of your posts

And my speculation that they can't do what they claim on an APU is just as good as yours that it is. You have conjecture about how well they might be able to optimize things in a console-specific way, and I have PC benchmarks showing it's crazy. Who's right? We'll find out in a couple years.

Console manufacturers aren't exactly known for their forthrightness about what their consoles can do (see: claims about 1080p this generation and claims about PS4 being able to do "4k" next generation...) so it's not exactly crazy to think that they're making deceptive claims here too...

Um no. I already said those benchmarks do not reflect what Sony is doing.....also some of those benches are BS in unto themselves.

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

technically yes.

Someone finally gets it!!!!!!!

Didn't think such a simple and introduced-up-front-as-picky point would be so controversial...

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

No its more I was comparing the RSX to the APU they are using. He didn't/doesn't think the APU could do 60FPS in a console environment.

Wish you were here about 3 pages ago

You're talking about different things man. I too think the APU can not even dream of approaching an stable minimum of 60 fps. Not even close.

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

No its more I was comparing the RSX to the APU they are using. He didn't/doesn't think the APU could do 60FPS in a console environment.

Wish you were here about 3 pages ago

Um no. I already said those benchmarks do not reflect what Sony is doing.....also some of those benches are BS in unto themselves.

And you have benchmarks that DO reflect what Sony is doing?

Nope.

You have speculation that they're going to be able to optimize something so well that it can do leaps and bounds better than it would do on a PC - to the extent that it may even surpass the highest end video cards currently available by a decent margin!

Like I said, neither speculation is inherently any better than the other. We won't know for a couple years which is correct.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

You're talking about different things man. I too think the APU can not even dream of approaching an stable minimum of 60 fps. Not even close.

So you don't think an APU is more powerful then a 7+ year old GPU? Because that's what you are saying.

Originally Posted by BigMack70

And you have benchmarks that DO reflect what Sony is doing?

Nope.

You have speculation that they're going to be able to optimize something so well that it can do leaps and bounds better than it would do on a PC - to the extent that it may even surpass the highest end video cards currently available by a decent margin!

Like I said, neither speculation is inherently any better than the other. We won't know for a couple years which is correct.

lol Games for the PC are ports man. NOTHING is optimized.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

So you don't think an APU is more powerful then a 7+ year old GPU?

Honestly, it's not much more powerful (once we factor in the higher resolution), but let's not start arguing about that. Anyway 7+ year GPU does NOT do 30 fps minimum. Current consoles often get lows of 15-20 fps.

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

So you don't think an APU is more powerful then a 7+ year old GPU?

That's a deceptively oversimplified question that leaves out too many variables e.g. that games are poised to become far more demanding than they are on the current console generation (see: Unreal Engine 4 etc) and that in addition to having more demanding games we're talking about making the jump from 720p30 to 1080p60.

Nobody in here is saying that an APU isn't more powerful than a 7 year old GPU. I and some others are saying that there's no way that it's so much more powerful that it will be able to make both those jumps - to substantially more demanding games and to a resolution/framerate 4x as demanding - at the same time.

[erocker]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

Honestly, it's not much more powerful, but let's not start arguing about that. Anyway 7+ year GPU does NOT do 30 fps minimum. Current consoles often get lows of 15-20 fps.

Not to mention that many games don't even run at 720p. If I remember correctly GTA IV ran under 720p on the PS3 and was upscaled.

Either way this console is interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing how they squeeze performance out of an APU and a discreet card.

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

So you don't think an APU is more powerful then a 7 year old GPU?

Most likely the GPU portion of the APU is about the same.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by BigMack70

That's a deceptively oversimplified question that leaves out too many variables e.g. that games are poised to become far more demanding than they are on the current console generation (see: Unreal Engine 4 etc) and that in addition to having more demanding games we're talking about making the jump from 720p30 to 1080p60.

Nobody in here is saying that an APU isn't more powerful than a 7 year old GPU. I and some others are saying that there's no way that it's so much more powerful that it will be able to make both those jumps - to substantially more demanding games and to a resolution/framerate 4x as demanding - at the same time.

Games are not gonna be that much more demanding. Sony and MS both have confirmed that they don't expect a massive graphical jump this generation. Expect more of the same, just smoother.

Originally Posted by erocker

Most likely the GPU portion of the APU is about the same.

Depends on the APU.

[1d10t]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

LOL.

It says its at 1080p, but its upscaled, Games don't actually run at native 1080p on current gen consoles. Sorry to break it to yea.

Originally Posted by BigMack70

I hate to break it to you and be the one to shatter your inner console fan, but...
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241

Current consoles don't really render anything at 1080p. The 360 isn't even capable of true 1080p output and with the PS3, for anything even remotely demanding (99.9% of games), it likewise renders at ~720p and upscales.

Also, I think the # of people who have failed to understand I've been making a picky point about comparing the computing power needed for different resolutions/settings is up to 3 or 4.

*whoooooooooooooooooooosh* go my posts over your head.

There are implications in this discussion for 1080p60 vs 720p30, but my point hasn't been about those implications.

And I stand by my speculation about an APU not being able to do 1080p60. Your speculation that it can is as good as mine that it can't - it's all speculation right now - but I just don't believe their claims.

Exactly,that's the point!
For any "casual gamer" point of view,do they need REAL 1080p?Do they have sufficient knowledge about this?
You can muster everything regarding this scaled things,but to casual gamer they already satisfied found their TV shows 1080p/60Hz info

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Games are not gonna be that much more demanding. Sony and MS both have confirmed that they don't expect a massive graphical jump this generation.

Again, speculation. I'd say that Unreal Engine 4 poses problems for this position.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by BigMack70

Again, speculation. I'd say that Unreal Engine 4 poses problems for this position.

Its not speculation. Sony and MS have already confirmed it.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Games are not gonna be that much more demanding. Sony and MS both have confirmed that they don't expect a massive graphical jump this generation.

If that's true, they are gonna fail hard imo. If 720p vs 1080p is the only thing they expect to change, who's really going to spend the cash on a new console? Fanboys, no one else. Most people already waited 2-3 years until they bought PS3/XB360 and the difference with the previous ones was massive...

[erocker]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Depends on the APU.

Ya think?

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by 1d10t

Exactly,that's the point!
For any "casual gamer" point of view,do they need REAL 1080p?Do they have sufficient knowledge about this?
You can muster everything regarding this scaled things,but to casual gamer they already satisfied found their TV shows 1080p/60Hz info

What's your point? You got on here and posted some comparison screenshots that I pointed out were irrelevant. Then you posted a screenshot of your PS3 to supposedly argue against my point that your downsized screenshots were irrelevant.

Who here is talking about casual gamers and what they care about?

The topic of conversation is "Can the PS4 render at 1080p60"... not "Do casual console kiddies care if their games are rendered at 1080p or rendered at 720p and upscaled?"

[BigMack70]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Its not speculation. Sony and MS have already confirmed it.

So we can confirm that Sony and MS have speculated that they don't expect a massive graphical leap this generation... See where I'm going with this?

If there's anything to their speculation, it's that they know that they're going to be putting out crap hardware specs that can't handle a graphical leap.